Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

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Nils Voss

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Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostWed Aug 26, 2020 8:09 am

As I understand, the Atem mini is able to start stop recording on the Blackmagiccameras, if connected via HDMI.
I also think that it will sync the timecode, so that you can replace the h264 footage with the Raw stuff.


BUT is there a way to get to the time code data? I think it will be transmitted via CEC in the HDMI?
Maybe someone from BMD can confirm that? This should be easy to read, there are some implemations in Arduino.

Will it be possible to get the documentation? For the Protocoll??


This would be nice to build a LTC timecode sync device so that you can also sync a audio recorder for example.

Kind Regards Nils Voss
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostWed Aug 26, 2020 4:59 pm

I don't think the HDMI camera control protocol is documented anywhere. However, my expectation would be that it is largely the same as the SDI camera control protocol, but with the commands embedded in HDMI CEC messages. A similar approach was taken for the Bluetooth Camera Control protocol which sends the SDI camera control messages over Bluetooth.

The format for the SDI camera control messages is documented in the Developer Section at the back of the Blackmagic Cameras manuals:
https://documents.blackmagicdesign.com/ ... 7538811000

Note that for timecode information in particular, I am not sure whether the ATEM actually sends continuous timecode information to the cameras over HDMI. It's possible that it just sends the initial timecode of the clip when starting recording on the camera and relies on the camera's built-in real-time clock from that point onward. In which case this may not be all that useful for sending to an external audio recorder that expects a continuous LTC timecode source.

One other option to consider, is that I believe that the ATEM Mini Pro also sends embedded timecode information on its HDMI output port. And there are some audio recorders that have built-in HDMI timecode readers, such as the Sound Devices MixPre series (3, 6, and 10) and the Tascam DR-701D. Note that I believe the timecode information embedded on the HDMI output is continuous timecode and in a bit more standardized format than the back-channel camera control timecode on the ATEM Mini's HDMI inputs.
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Nils Voss

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostThu Aug 27, 2020 12:38 pm

Thanks for the reply,

I couldn't see that the mix pre series have a HDMI in.??

The DR-701D has a HDMI in and out, and what I am thinking is that it just receives start and stop from the camera. And records the embedded Audio....(which is also a cool thing.

But If it is more than that, than we have what we like too....(bad news: no soldering for me)

And I don't think, that HDMI protocoll is the same like sdi, cec is (what I read) only capable to do round about 400Bits/s..... so yes I also think it will set a start TC and let it run.
But this is something our business does for a long time....most of the cameras can be synecd, and then run free for a long time without fading to much.

Anyhow again thanks for the informations.....maybe the DR-701 is the solution (Kind of an overkill is well)

I will take a look if it is wokrling with tc from the Atem


Cheers Nils
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostThu Aug 27, 2020 2:22 pm

The Sound Devices MixPre3, 6, and 10 recorders have a Micro HDMI input port. This port can be used to receive HDMI start/stop record flags (from compatible cameras) and as an HDMI timecode source. How to set this up is described in this video:


Similarly, on the Tascam DR-701D, there is an option to set the timecode source to HDMI input as mentioned on page 28 of the manual:
https://tascam.com/downloads/tascam/896 ... _rm_vb.pdf

I'm not sure if people have tested these features with the HDMI output from the ATEM Mini Pro specifically, but the MixPre recorders do support HDMI timecode output from Blackmagic cameras as described in this thread (and I assume the ATEM Mini Pro's HDMI timecode output format will be similar):
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83038
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Nils Voss

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostThu Aug 27, 2020 2:52 pm

Great!! I just forwarded that to our reseller....They also have a rental department.....
Maybe they have the stuff there to give it a short test....

Thanks for the answers...and the time...



Cheers Nils
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Mike E InTX

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostThu Aug 27, 2020 3:52 pm

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why can't the ATEM Mini Pro ISO firmware timestamp each input as it comes in? Why does it have to rely on the source to timestamp each input?

Inquiring minds want to know. Maybe someone w/BM can respond.
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostFri Aug 28, 2020 5:38 am

Mike E InTX wrote:Maybe this is a dumb question, but why can't the ATEM Mini Pro ISO firmware timestamp each input as it comes in? Why does it have to rely on the source to timestamp each input?
I believe that the ATEM Mini Pro ISO will timestamp the H.264 video files it records to a connected USB drive using the ATEM Mini Pro's built-in timecode generator.

But in some cases it may be desirable to record in-camera in addition to the ATEM Mini ISO recordings. For example, you might want to record 4K in-camera while outputting 1080p to the switcher for the live cut. In which case, if you want the in-camera recordings to have the same timecode as the ATEM Mini ISO or program recordings, you have to send the timecode from the ATEM Mini Pro to the cameras somehow. For the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Cameras, this can be done over the HDMI communication (CEC) back channel.

And if you want to be able to match the timecode on the ATEM Mini Pro's video recordings with an external audio recorder (because perhaps you want to record more than the 2 audio channels possible with the ATEM switchers), then you need some way to extract the timecode information from the ATEM Mini Pro's built-in timecode generator to send it to these external devices.
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Nils Voss

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostFri Aug 28, 2020 8:06 am

@Dave Del Vecchio
I think someone has to buy beer for your.....?
I would have answered to question before....but It was late...and I had no login data at home....

next guess to my TC related stuff.....ARC! which is the audio Returnchannel for HDMI:
Fast enough, right direction and tada: cheap extrators available....

Not saying that this right and makes sense.....but I will test it....
The audio recorders don't have a TC out (but I also missed the micro HDMI!!)

It is a cheap way to find that out....

What I also found out: some cheap hdmi repeater don't forward cec, but some do....I now have two hdmi screw terminal adapters....(i THink control will not work to the cameras if cec is not connected...)

I will order a Arc extractor to see if we can use this as a cheap TC


Please be patient....;-)

Cheers Nils
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nathsteeley

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostSat Aug 29, 2020 2:56 am

My question is how can we genlock the Mini Pro Iso and separate audio recorder together?
I love the idea of timecoding both audio and video records but they can still drift without being referenced together.
The Streaming Bridge has a Ref In which would work for outputting to a master program recorder (how’s the latency over the ethernet connection?) but that wouldn’t help the in camera 4K Iso records...
Nath
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Nils Voss

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostMon Aug 31, 2020 6:43 pm

Two things:
First: ref or reference is a signal to synchronize a video frame. No timecode involved.
Ltc is something different! It's longitudinal timecode which was recorded to a tape.
The atem mini creates his own timecode.... At the moment... It seems that the mini studio pro is is able to send timecode to the bmd cameras.... Which we right now, don't know how...

Forget the streaming bridge..... There is a huge delay.... Maybe because it beta right now...
But for sure because of the encoding.... It takes time.... Again the ref input is there to sync the picture to your house reference.

You don't need that with the mini/pro/iso....there are framebuffers/framerateconverters in the inputs.. Synchronizing to its internal reference....
It was necessary in the old day.... Ever camera needed to be in sync... Also the hole system.
Still with the bigger atems..... Also all cameras/source need to be the same resolution and framer are...

What you try to achieve with the ltc is also what we try to.... Using different cameras with tc in..... Not ref
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nathsteeley

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostThu Sep 03, 2020 12:03 am

Nils Voss wrote:Two things:
First: ref or reference is a signal to synchronize a video frame. No timecode involved.
Ltc is something different! It's longitudinal timecode which was recorded to a tape.
The atem mini creates his own timecode.... At the moment... It seems that the mini studio pro is is able to send timecode to the bmd cameras.... Which we right now, don't know how...

Forget the streaming bridge..... There is a huge delay.... Maybe because it beta right now...
But for sure because of the encoding.... It takes time.... Again the ref input is there to sync the picture to your house reference.

You don't need that with the mini/pro/iso....there are framebuffers/framerateconverters in the inputs.. Synchronizing to its internal reference....
It was necessary in the old day.... Ever camera needed to be in sync... Also the hole system.
Still with the bigger atems..... Also all cameras/source need to be the same resolution and framer are...

What you try to achieve with the ltc is also what we try to.... Using different cameras with tc in..... Not ref


Hi Nils thanks for your reply.
Yes I understand the differences between Ref & LTC which is even more reason to find out the best way to synchronise the atem mini pro iso video records & standalone audio records to a house sync (for arguments sake, a location record will probably just use a BMD sync gen).
I have done separate audio & video records in the past with timecode only to find in post that both records drift after a few hours because they don’t have the same reference.
So... how can we make sure that doesn’t happen in this scenario?!
Cheers
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostThu Sep 03, 2020 3:16 am

If you really want to sync everything to a common clock source, there are master reference clocks available that have multiple output formats including: video reference (black burst or tri-level sync), word clock (for audio equipment), and linear timecode (LTC).

A few examples:
Then you would feed the word clock signal to your digital audio interface or recorders, the video reference to your cameras and video switcher, and the timecode output to any audio or video recorders to stamp the recorded files.

This only works if you have higher end equipment with the necessary reference inputs (such as cameras with genlock inputs, digital mixer or audio interface with word clock input, etc.). From the ATEM product line, you might want one of the rackmount 2 M/E or 4 M/E switchers with reference and timecode inputs.

This kind of setup is probably overkill for most applications though. For most people recording shorter clips, using a decent timecode source is probably fine.
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Nils Voss

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostThu Sep 03, 2020 9:03 am

Like always:
Dave is faster in my own thread....Do I have to move to USA to be awake at the right time? I am just kidding.

But I also agree to you Dave, that having sync/ref in a situation that is using a ISO pro is maybe kind of an overkill.
You also have to think of the fact, that you have framebuffers/framerateconverters, in all Inputs of the Mini ISO Pro....this is, in my opinion, because BMD was thinking of a different user group for that stuff.
So it will sync/lock to all of the stuff, that you feed.....This is very different to he bigger series.....all source have to be same resolution and framerate. Than a sync makes more sense....but also a little more tricky.....
(we have here a 25p world with a 50Hz powergrid! but Computer run at 30/60p!)

So YOu would like to sync an external audiorecorder? Maybe you can use a BMD camera, which will be synchronized from the TC in the Atem...? You can send the Audio from your recoder and record it there?
This will be 100% sync to your video? And also fine with the quality. You can use your Audiorecorder as mixer/Limiter?

Do you think the ISO Pro is the right tool? It is in my eyes pointing to the Prosumer market? Don't get me wrong, I like the stuff...I have a mini here (My private one, Yes I am weird)...I would like to have a ISO...
I built some CNC parts/Holder that you can use the mini with a vesa monitor arm....

What Do you like to do? Maybe there are other solutions?? Next Idea: Use the Mic inputs.....there are switchable to linelevel.....use a good DI-Box.....4Channel Audio..... In SYNC!!

Nils
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Nils Voss

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostThu Sep 03, 2020 9:06 am

take a look here:

Not cheap....but looks like the right solution:

https://www.radialeng.com/product/pro-iso
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Nils Voss

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostThu Oct 01, 2020 6:39 am

for those who are interessed:

I hope this isn't something secret:

Seems to be CEC.....I can see that the ATEM sends some command with some TC informations in it, after that
the camera runs free....It just receives the TC (with frame count 00, or no framecount means Hour:minutes:seconds) and than "run forrest run".....

We will see if i can translate that to a TC in someways....


Kind regards Nils
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poucedeleon

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostFri Jul 29, 2022 6:24 pm

Good Morning Everyone,
I am writing because It does not look like a viable solution was mentioned in this thread.

My project involves using an ATEM Mini Extreme ISO switcher with (4) BMPCC 4K cameras. I know the ATEM generates timecode and records it to each video channel, and sends it to the BMPCC 4K cameras when used for in-camera recording.

The reason I need to get timecode out of this system is, I also use a Timecode System’s “Pulse” and GoPro Hero 4s with the SyncBac on the GoPros. I use these cameras for close up shots on drums and Keys. Usually they are not switched but used in post.

So essentially, the Mini Extreme ISO becomes the master clock, and I need its timecode signal.

I am wondering if using the HyperDeck Studio HD Plus could be the solution? If you run a program feed (which has timecode) from the Extreme ISO to the Hyperdeck, then use the timecode out, I could send that timecode to the LTC input of the “Pulse” which would be set as a client.

Then the “Timecode System” setup would provide the same timecode signal to the SyncBac, UltraSync One or a field recorder like the Zoom F4 via BNC.

Unfortunately I have not been able to test it since the Hyperdeck I have does not have HDMI in.

If anyone has the Hyperdeck Studio HD and is able to test this theory I would be very interested in the outcome.
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Kaku Ito

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 12:26 am

Clever!

I will try this out.
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Kaku Ito

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 11:01 am

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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 11:43 am

I don't know about the HyperDeck Studio HD Plus specifically, but the HyperDeck Studio 4K Pro does support HDMI embedded timecode input.

For this to work, you need to make sure that the timecode settings on the HyperDeck are set to use timecode from the video input (rather than the external LTC port or the internal timecode generator). And the HyperDeck needs to be in record mode, rather than in playback mode (in playback mode the LTC output port will output timecode from the current clip or timeline instead of the video input).

Note that the timecode from the video input will only be displayed on the HyperDeck LCD screen if the deck is currently recording, but it seems like the timecode output is live on the LTC port as long as the deck is in record mode and is receiving an input video signal with embedded timecode.

For HyperDeck models that don't support timecode over HDMI or which don't have an HDMI input at all (such as the HyperDeck Studio HD Mini), it is possible to use a Micro Converter HDMI to SDI 3G or Micro Converter HDMI to SDI 12G to get video with embedded timecode into the HyperDeck (as those converter models support HDMI to SDI timecode conversion).
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Kaku Ito

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 12:10 am

Thank you for your post, Dave.

As I drew it in my diagram, I'm going for the Hyperdeck Mini HD Plus.
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Kaku Ito

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Re: Timecode out on ATEM Mini pro ISO? HDMI CEC?

PostSun Sep 18, 2022 6:13 pm

Hello,

Finally got my Hyperdeck Studio Plus and I can confirm that the TC out works and provide the TC from ATEM no matter the mode is multiview or program.

Unfortunately, my original plan, to get the LTC from the TC out and connect it to Nanolockit with the TC-In cable but did not work. Instead, I got the Audiplex set and connect the LTC to Audiplex transmitter, then Audiplex recievers to the camera audio input. It works really well and the cost is very low comparing to Nanolockit. I can have upto 100 receiver, lol!!

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