Blackmagic Forum

Hi folks,
Sorry for the long and detailed post. I'm testing out an ATEM 1 M/E Production Studio 4K with the Advanced Control Panel and a SmartVideo Hub (20x20). All are brand new and I'm tracing down some PC and camera video compatibility issues. The ATEM 1 M/E is set to 720p59.94 and the Smartvideo Hub is between sources and ATEM so shows the incoming video resolution regardless. For testing I'm using the following inputs/converters:

Canon HF Vixia R600 (similar to church's Canon HF Vixia G40's)

• 1080p HDMI output to BMD HDMI/SDI Micro Converter
• BMD HDMI/SDI Micro Converter output 1 to SmartVideo Hub. Appears as 1080p59.95 on the SmartVideo Hub, doesn't show on the ATEM 1 M/E LCD screen obviously, just used to see what's being fed to the UpDownCross converter.
• BMD HDMI/SDI Micro Converter output 2 to BMD UpDownCross Mini Converter set to "720", then to SmartVideo Hub. Appears as 720p59.95 on the SmartVideo Hub and shows on the ATEM 1 M/E LCD screen fine. (NOTE: the UpDownCross won't be necessary at church as we can hard-set the HDMI output to 720p; the R600 auto-sets so when it sees the HDMI/SDI converter it sets the output to 1080p)

Cisco Precision60 (our "Skycam" dedicated to the external Recording Room to see the overall stage)

• 720p60 SDI output directly to SmartVideo Hub. Appears as 720p60 on the SmartVideo Hub, doesn't show on the ATEM 1 M/E LCD screen.
• 720p60 SDI output to BMD UpDownCross Mini Converter set to "720", then to SmartVideo Hub. Still appears as 720p60 on the SmartVideo Hub, doesn't show on the ATEM 1 M/E LCD screen.
• 1080p HDMI output to BMD HDMI/SDI Micro Converter.
• BMD HDMI/SDI Micro Converter output 1 to SmartVideo Hub. Appears as 1080p60 on the SmartVideo Hub, doesn't show on the ATEM 1 M/E LCD screen obviously, just used to see what's being fed to the UpDownCross converter.
• BMD HDMI/SDI Micro Converter output 2 to BMD UpDownCross Mini Converter set to "720", then to SmartVideo Hub. Appears as 720p60 on the SmartVideo Hub, doesn't show on the ATEM 1 M/E LCD screen.

Acer Netbook

• 1280x720@60Hz HDMI output to BMD HDMI/SDI Micro Converter to SmartVideo Hub. Appears as 720p60 on the SmartVideo Hub, doesn't show on the ATEM 1 M/E LCD screen (Input 1 set to SDI).
• 1280x720@60Hz HDMI output directly to ATEM 1 M/E HDMI Input, bypassing SmartVideo Hub, shows on the ATEM 1 M/E LCD screen fine (Input 1 set to HDMI).

So it appears that no 720p60 (or 1080p60) source is compatible with the ATEM 1 M/E 4K, only 720p59.95 and 1080p59.95 video sources. The spec's back this up, but I find it odd that every outboard converter and hub/matrix that BMD has supports both p60 and p59.94 times, but all of their ATEM switchers only support p59.94 (in this case, anyway). I would have expected the Cisco camera outputs to be video timings, but apparently they're computer timings (p60) as well, maybe because they're designed for VTCs. So the followup question would be, how do I get computer timing inputs converted to the apparently video-timing-only ATEM?

The other thing I don't understand is why my PC HDMI output, which shows up as 720p60 on the SmartVideo Hub, works at all on the ATEM 4K's HDMI input if it's only supposed to be able to accept video timings? Unless my netbook autodetects the destination and sets it to computer or video timing as appropriate? Windows 10 shows it as 1280x720@60Hz 8-bit RGB, though, which is a computer timing.

If you read this far, thanks. Hopefully there's a solution out there...upgrading from the ATEM HD 1 M/E to the ATEM 4K 1 M/E gains me 2 additional SDI inputs, which is nice, but I lose all but one HDMI inputs and have need of at least 2 PC inputs (plus will have to extend even that one HDMI input with a pair of HDMI/SDI, SDI/HDMI micro converters since we're supposed to be moving the video equipment out of our booth and to a nearby equipment closet...

Thanks,
Jeff

Hello Jeff. The short answer is that most ATEMs output only broadcast rates by design, so the 30/60 rates are not supported. There are a few exceptions. HDMI inputs are capable of converting the 60 to 59.94 where the SDI inputs are not. So in general all inputs need to be the same frame rate and resolution for most ATEMs. One of the recent exceptions is the Television Studio 4K Pro which will accept both 59.94 and 60 rates on all SDI inputs. The new ATEM Mini will accept 60 rates as well on the HDMI inputs. I hope this helps.

Regards, Gary

Hi Gary,
Thanks for the reply...I don't understand why ALL of BMD's converters, hubs and routers appear to support both standards, yet none of the ATEM M/E's or Production Studios do. Wouldn't that have been prudent since the ATEM would typically be what is used to mix all of these signals running through those converters, hubs and routers?

Is there some type of converter out there that can convert from the RGB resolutions to the equivalent YUV resolutions? Or any possibility of a firmware upgrade adding this? Losing 3 of the old ATEM 1 M/E's HDMI inputs without a replacement input for those types of sources is seriously limiting.

Thanks,
Jeff

Blackmagic makes an up/down/cross converter and if that doesn't work you can always buy a decimator.

Best,

David

David_Anderson wrote:Blackmagic makes an up/down/cross converter and if that doesn't work you can always buy a decimator.

I have some UpDownCross converters (see testing notes above). It converted between resolutions of the same type fine, but unfortunately it doesn't convert 60Hz timings to 59.94 FR timings.

Do any of the Decimator products do that?

Thanks,
Jeff

Hello Jeff. The UpDownCross HD does convert 60 to 59.94 or back. I took my computer output of 1280x720 60 and converted to 720p59.94 to the ATEM SDI input and it shows correctly. The SDI inputs need 59.94, the HDMI inputs will work on 60. The UDC HD is useful for computer resolutions that are not broadcast as well.

Regards, Gary

Gary Adams wrote:Hello Jeff. The UpDownCross HD does convert 60 to 59.94 or back. I took my computer output of 1280x720 60 and converted to 720p59.94 to the ATEM SDI input and it shows correctly. The SDI inputs need 59.94, the HDMI inputs will work on 60. The UDC HD is useful for computer resolutions that are not broadcast as well.

Great! I have the original all-SDI UpDownCross models, so they don't do the video conversion unfortunately.

I'm looking at the new HD version now, it *seems* to say that it will take either timing on either input (SDI or HDMI), or am I reading this wrong (or did you mean the ATEM inputs)?:

UpDownCross specs:
HD Video Standards
720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60, 1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 1080p50, 1080p59.94, 1080p60, 1080PsF23.98, 1080PsF24, 1080PsF25, 1080PsF29.97, 1080PsF30, 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60

HDMI Input Video Standards
720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60, 1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 1080p50, 1080p59.94, 1080p60, 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60


Are both SDI and HDMI outputs of the UpDownCross locked to 59.94 output or do you have to set that in software?

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff,

I didn't read close enough. Sorry you have the old converters. Depending on your needs the BMD is definitely the less expensive version and for a permanently installed solution that's probably the way to go. If you think you might have future needs I find the Decimator MD-HX to be a far more versatile product (and you can set it up via computer USB or on the screen). Don't get me wrong, this is a BM forum and I'm a huge support of all their products but I want to make a solid recommendation as well.

Hope this helps!

Best,

David

Hello Jeff. Both outputs will be the same.

Regards, Gary

Gary Adams wrote:Hello Jeff. Both outputs will be the same.

I was referring to inputs. It sounded like you were saying the SDI and HDMI inputs don't support the same formats, but the specs seem to indicate either one can take any of the listed input formats and timings.

So, to clarify, is it correct to say that you can put any supported video or computer timing format into either SDI or HDMI input and it would output whatever supported video or computer timing you specify (via software?) on both the SDI and HDMI outputs?

Spec Reference:
Video Conversion
Convert any SD and HD input to "720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60, 1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 1080p50, 1080p59.94, 1080p60, 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60"

Thanks,
Jeff

Hi Jeff. Sorry I didn't exactly answer correctly. So mostly, yes. All listed resolutions are supported on both HDMI and SDI. if you feed SDI 60p it will convert to 59.94 on the output. The SDI inputs are more limited to broadcast resolutions so you won't find computer resolutions like 800x600 on SDI but you will on HDMI. So the HDMI input will handle a wide variety of broadcast and computer resolutions. The SDI will be more broadcast resolutions. But the frame rates will be converted either way if that is what you are asking.

Regards, Gary

Gary Adams wrote:Hi Jeff. Sorry I didn't exactly answer correctly. (snip) But the frame rates will be converted either way if that is what you are asking.

No worries, and yes, that's what I'm asking. It sounds like the UpDownCross HD is all I would need to use 720p60 or 1080p60 sourses with the ATEM 1 M/E Production Studio 4K, so if I need any additional camera or PC sources that only put that out (above and beyond the 1 HDMI input), this does give me a method to accommodate those.

Thanks,
Jeff

So I've got an UpDownCross on order, and while I'm going to use it on a 2nd PC input eventually, I have another possible temporary use, and a follow-up question on the ATEM 1 M/E 4K Production Studio.

So the ATEM question first...I had originally planned to set the new mixer up for 1080p29.97, as that's the max setting on my Teradek Vidiu encoder box (livestream) and my iMac's Blackmagic UltraStudio Mini Recorder (recording and backup livestream). However, it appears that I can't set my Canon G40 cameras' HDMI outputs to anything other than 59.94 frame rate, so I'm stuck with that. I'm assuming the ATEM set to 29.97 wouldn't see the cameras set to the 59.94 frame rate, but I've never actually tested it. What made me think of it was my Teradek Vidiu appears to see (convert?) the 1080p59.94 feed from the ATEM as 1080p29.97, despite supposedly not being able to do that. So would the ATEM actually work with 59.94 frame rate camera settings if set up for 29.97, or would I definitely have to get the camera feeds to 29.97 somehow?

UpDownCross question: assuming I'm staying with the 1080p59.94 global video system settings, but have to output 1080p29.97 to the Teradek Vidiu that (supposedly) maxes out at that setting, would the UpDownCross be able to convert the ATEM's 1080p59.94 output to 1080p29.97 for the Teradek Vidiu?

Thanks,
Jeff

You would have to set the camera and ATEM to match, either resolution will work, but both must be the same. Your other option would be to replace the Canon camera with one of the BMD Pocket cameras, which can output 1080p29.97.
Cheers

Denny Smith wrote:You would have to set the camera and ATEM to match, either resolution will work, but both must be the same. Your other option would be to replace the Canon camera with one of the BMD Pocket cameras, which can output 1080p29.97.
Cheers

Thought as much. I'll probably just leave all as is at 108059.94 and just put an UpDownCross converter between that ATEM and the Vidiu. I already had an UltraStudio Mini HD for another purpose that likely will be OBE'd, so I swapped it with the Mini Recorder on the Recording/Backup Streaming iMac to handle the 59.94 there. When I get around to upgrading the cameras, I'm looking at SDI-equipped PTZ varieties.

Thanks,
Jeff