Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

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MediaCBC

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Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostTue Mar 24, 2020 5:01 pm

Our church wants to upgrade our entire video production system. Our idea so far is to have four PTZ Optics cameras inputted into an ATEM Television Studio HD, and then controlled from the the ATEM 1 M/E Advanced Panel. That's is all we we know so far, the rest is what we need help with.

Our goal is to have Propresenter send to two projectors and separately to the church TV's. The presentation computer will control the slides and songs. We also want to stream to youtube while recording and we don't know what we need. The other thing is to have a multi-view in general and then have another monitor for another video crew member to control another camera separately from the main switcher. All of this is being very difficult for us to figure out as there doesn't seem to be a lot of resources to help. If you have any suggestions that will help tremendously.

We already have a full audio panel, and our crew is one audio engineer, One person at the presentation computer, and one person controlling the video.
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davet48

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostTue Mar 24, 2020 6:54 pm

The Blackmagic Web Presenter is an affordable way to live stream. You will need a laptop in addition to the Web Presenter. Basically the Web presenter will take your livestream feed from your switcher and convert that into a webcam for your laptop to see. This can then be used to livestream on Facebook or other platforms. If you want to stream directly using a RTMP service you should look at something like a Teradek Cube.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostTue Mar 24, 2020 7:33 pm

PTZ optics tend not to work with the Atems. This due too a Payload ID issue because the PTZ optic cameras are not SMPTE complaint!! ;)

There are many people in this forum that all had to buy UpDownCross converters to put in between the PTZ Optics and the Atem to get it to work.

I would advice Lumens PTZ cameras. They are SMPTE complaint. ;)

Controlling the cameras from the Panel is another "issue" While RS422 visca is implemented on the Atem. It lacks a lot of features. You have NO control over Presets, Iris, Focus, Shutter, Color control etc.

You are better off using a dedicated PTZ controller. ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Constelation 8K, Hyperdeck Studio 12G, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control
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David_Anderson

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostTue Mar 24, 2020 8:48 pm

I would highly recommend against a PTZ setup unless you have a massive production crew. It's just not necessary. I can provide you with consulting on an end to end solution and have you up and running in a cost effective manner this week (provided that you can get all the necessary components). I've done 3 churches in the last 3 weeks.
https://www.facebook.com/commonthreadra ... 151015464/

For the video above I brought my portable production unit 100 miles to the church and put the whole thing together on less than 10 hours notice and about an hour of setup time for a 3 camera feed.

Please check out my website and contact me if I can be of service.

Best,

David
David Anderson
Leading Edge Multimedia
https://leadingedgemultimedia.com
(888) 336-LEMM
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MediaCBC

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostTue Mar 24, 2020 9:51 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:PTZ optics tend not to work with the Atems. This due too a Payload ID issue because the PTZ optic cameras are not SMPTE complaint!! ;)

There are many people in this forum that all had to buy UpDownCross converters to put in between the PTZ Optics and the Atem to get it to work.

I would advice Lumens PTZ cameras. They are SMPTE complaint. ;)

Controlling the cameras from the Panel is another "issue" While RS422 visca is implemented on the Atem. It lacks a lot of features. You have NO control over Presets, Iris, Focus, Shutter, Color control etc.

You are better off using a dedicated PTZ controller. ;)

Just called PTZ Optics, their cameras work only at 1080p30 with ATEM but that is fine with us because our network wouldn't be able to handle 1080p60.

Now, we were thinking of using something like the Lumens VS-K20 to control the camera. Would that work with PTZ Optics and the atem panel?
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rogersuski

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostTue Mar 24, 2020 11:32 pm

Is there a lot of movement in the service? If not, you may get by with lots of presets a few buttons for final adjustment - perfect for a streamdeck.

If there is a lot of movement, you can have a lot of fun with Rocosoft. You can integrate camera control and preset recall via any number of gaming controllers. My younger ops totally loved the change after having to use the standard PTZ joystick (in my case SONY) -- and the latest version claims to have support to use an older serial controller for IP cameras (in my case i can bring the BR300 back to live to control my new BRC and SRG units)

I'm kind of the mind that you *could* do away with the advanced panel, plow that into a streamdeck and some camera control and have a pretty automated environment. You may want to up to a Production Studio as it has 3 aux outs. That'll give you some flexibility later -- like if you ever wanted to do IMAG or have some other source besides the ProP
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MediaCBC

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostWed Mar 25, 2020 12:38 am

Thanks guys, the reason we are going with blackmagic is that we are building another larger auditorium iin a few years and we are looking into man-operated cameras. But for now, we just have one person in the video side so PTZ Optics is what we are doing along with UpDownCross converters as that is not a lot to sacrifice to have the support of blackmagic while keeping 20x zoom and being under a budget. If you have any other comments, we are open, but generaelly, we have figured what we will do from now on.
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MambaFiber.com

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostWed Mar 25, 2020 8:46 pm

Our experience with PTZ is that the quality of production is MUCH higher with a dedicated PTZ camera operator. Asking the video mixer person to also point/frame/focus cameras gets to be a bit much for one person with anything other than straight camera cuts on the switcher.

BTW, unless you have an ATEM with frame sync inputs, or are using the HDMI inputs, 1080p30 will not work with most ATEM models, it must be 1080p29.97. Even though a Decimator/BMD UDC or equivalent will fix this, I prefer to have the correct frame rate come out of the camera natively. This is important when trying to minimize latency for live monitor/screen applications, and of course saves you the cost of the UDC device.


If you are looking at the Lumens controller, why are you considering PTZoptics cams? There are so many incompatibilities between brands. Lumens makes a very similar 20x PTZ product (VC-A51) with the correct frame rates for the ATEM for about $1600. They even work completely with the VS-K20 :-)

Happy shopping.
Greg Bellotte - owner
MambaFiber.com
FaceBook.com/MambaFiber
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David_Anderson

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostWed Mar 25, 2020 10:00 pm

This right here is what I was talking about. There is another poster looking at controlling zoom and focus from the switcher and they say they have to scale back the crew. Just crazy! People swinging for the fences when a few well placed fixed cameras will do a great job and allow the tech the chance to actually worry about producing a show vs. trying to be an octopus!

Best,

David

MambaFiber.com wrote:Our experience with PTZ is that the quality of production is MUCH higher with a dedicated PTZ camera operator. Asking the video mixer person to also point/frame/focus cameras gets to be a bit much for one person with anything other than straight camera cuts on the switcher.
David Anderson
Leading Edge Multimedia
https://leadingedgemultimedia.com
(888) 336-LEMM
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EverythingCreative

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostThu Mar 26, 2020 7:05 am

Happy to help here. I own a company that has been streaming for house of worship since 2008. One quick note: I'd opt for the 4K version of the ATEM and anything else you purchase. HD is on it's way out and since you're building a new worship center you'll have a good head start on equipment, budget notwithstanding.

Our goal is to have Propresenter send to two projectors and separately to the church TV's. The presentation computer will control the slides and songs.


UPGRADE to Pro Presenter 7. The new version has a redesign that allows you to setup the song lyrics once, then reformat for multiple screen types and simultaneously distribute them, keeping all slides in sync. For instance, in the worship center you can have your text centered on big screens and a large font. Then you create a different "screen" for lower thirds for your broadcast. Create another "screen" for stage displays. And finally, you can run announcement slides to the hallway TVs, all from simultaneously from one machine, one playlist, one song file and everything stays in sync. There is a great video on renewedvision that explains this feature.

Now on to the YOUTUBE question:
We also want to stream to youtube while recording and we don't know what we need.


1. You'll need a way to come from your ATEM to a computer (I prefer Macs). Web Presenter from Blackmagic is fine but it only streams at 720p. I would consider either an UltraStudio Mini Recorder ($145) as it will act as a 1080p source from your ATEM.
The Pros:
[*]Cheap
[*]Easy way to get video into a machine and appear as a "webcam" for your streaming software
The Cons:
[*]Only a single SDI input and HDMI input
[*]Requires a Thunderbolt port (uncommon except on older Macs)

I would STRONGLY consider the UltraStudio Mini 4K ($995) because you get a great selection of I/O options, albeit a much higher cost.
The Pros:
[*]I/O includes HDMI, SDI, LOOP, Analog Audio (TRS), and more
[*]You'll be 4K ready
The Cons:
[*]Cost compared to the mini recorder
[*]Will require a computer with Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C Connector type)

2. Once we get your ATEM connected to the streaming computer we need some in-between software to push the stream out. If you are only going to YouTube you can use their baked-in web interface to stream. I recommend taking a look at OBS (FREE), or WireCast.

One final note on streaming...consider sending to multiple destinations; Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, etc. as guests are becoming more segregated in the platforms they adopt. This can be a little more involved on setting up. Message me for more info on that.

On this question:
The other thing is to have a multi-view in general and then have another monitor for another video crew member to control another camera separately from the main switcher.


My advice is to get the Smart Video Hub from Blackmagic. It's basically a 12x12 video switcher on steroids. You can connect all of your cameras directly to the hub BEFORE you connect to the ATEM. From the hub to the ATEM inputs. You could also connect all of your ATEM outputs to the hub and connect your cameras directly to your ATEM. Either way works. What using the hub will allow to do is route a direct feed from a particular camera to a monitor (connected to a hub output) for your camera person. Note that 1 source can feed multiple destinations so you can also route that same camera back to your ATEM. Additionally, you can route the multi view output of you ATEM anywhere also if it is also connected to your hub. This gives you incredible flexibility. I just installed this particular setup in a church in Florida.

I was a media pastor for a decade, I feel your pain in recruiting people to run cameras. However, if you go full PTZ you're limiting the potential for those needs to be filled, IMHO. What I learned was that personal invitations to help were much more effective than an all-call to help on the media team. Go to specific people, let them know you are going to guide them every step of the way. My new recruit training paradigm was:
[*]Week 1: Observing several positions to help narrow down where they feel they fit best
[*]Week 2: Training during a live service, standing side by side with one of our vets
[*]Week 3: Recruit runs 80% of a service while a vet is side by side walking them thru every step
[*]Week 4: Recruit runs 100% of a service while a vet observes, only intervening to save from catastrophe

Most folks are afraid they will make a mistake or break something. Let them break something. Let them screw up. Most importantly, use your people to train other people. Help your team multiply themselves by asking weekly, "Who are you training to take your position?" Finally, give everyone time off...even those that don't ask for it. Leadership is most effective when we look out for others that may not be looking out for themselves. Force your people into a rotation. They need a corporate worship experience like everyone else, wether they know it or not.

All the best, friend.
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David_Anderson

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostFri Mar 27, 2020 2:24 pm

Mike,

You offer some great suggestions however I have to differ with you on a few points. Your solutions seem to involve only Macs. If they have a PC platform they can easily use a Decklink card and not require Thunderbolt connectivity. A Decklink mini recorder 4k is 200 bucks.

Also, if you use a newer Mac you still still use an UltraStudio Mini Recorder with a TB3 to TB2 adapter.

I'm not convinced that 1080 is on the way out on the streaming side of things. Even Netflix and Youtube who "claim" to stream in 4k don't really compare to a local 4k look. It's highly compressed. People who are streaming at 1080 are dealing with balancing CPU and bandwidth issues.

With respect to streaming to multiple platforms, that's a double edged sword. If you are encoding and streaming to a single platform then distributing it to other platforms you're likely to be more successful. Trying to encode and stream out ot multiple platforms from the local PC will require a lot of CPU power.

As far as using a Smart video hub it may be overkill for their application. An ATEM 1 M/E with 3 Aux outs can accommodate most configurations. I think the key in this really is your statement "budget notwithstanding". It sounds like you have some higher end clientele that can afford the best solutions.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your advice is bad or wrong, just that there are multiple ways to accomplish the same goals.

Best,

David

EverythingCreative wrote:Happy to help here. I own a company that has been streaming for house of worship since 2008. One quick note: I'd opt for the 4K version of the ATEM and anything else you purchase. HD is on it's way out and since you're building a new worship center you'll have a good head start on equipment, budget notwithstanding.

Our goal is to have Propresenter send to two projectors and separately to the church TV's. The presentation computer will control the slides and songs.


UPGRADE to Pro Presenter 7. The new version has a redesign that allows you to setup the song lyrics once, then reformat for multiple screen types and simultaneously distribute them, keeping all slides in sync. For instance, in the worship center you can have your text centered on big screens and a large font. Then you create a different "screen" for lower thirds for your broadcast. Create another "screen" for stage displays. And finally, you can run announcement slides to the hallway TVs, all from simultaneously from one machine, one playlist, one song file and everything stays in sync. There is a great video on renewedvision that explains this feature.

Now on to the YOUTUBE question:
We also want to stream to youtube while recording and we don't know what we need.


1. You'll need a way to come from your ATEM to a computer (I prefer Macs). Web Presenter from Blackmagic is fine but it only streams at 720p. I would consider either an UltraStudio Mini Recorder ($145) as it will act as a 1080p source from your ATEM.
The Pros:
[*]Cheap
[*]Easy way to get video into a machine and appear as a "webcam" for your streaming software
The Cons:
[*]Only a single SDI input and HDMI input
[*]Requires a Thunderbolt port (uncommon except on older Macs)

I would STRONGLY consider the UltraStudio Mini 4K ($995) because you get a great selection of I/O options, albeit a much higher cost.
The Pros:
[*]I/O includes HDMI, SDI, LOOP, Analog Audio (TRS), and more
[*]You'll be 4K ready
The Cons:
[*]Cost compared to the mini recorder
[*]Will require a computer with Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C Connector type)

2. Once we get your ATEM connected to the streaming computer we need some in-between software to push the stream out. If you are only going to YouTube you can use their baked-in web interface to stream. I recommend taking a look at OBS (FREE), or WireCast.

One final note on streaming...consider sending to multiple destinations; Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, etc. as guests are becoming more segregated in the platforms they adopt. This can be a little more involved on setting up. Message me for more info on that.

On this question:
The other thing is to have a multi-view in general and then have another monitor for another video crew member to control another camera separately from the main switcher.


My advice is to get the Smart Video Hub from Blackmagic. It's basically a 12x12 video switcher on steroids. You can connect all of your cameras directly to the hub BEFORE you connect to the ATEM. From the hub to the ATEM inputs. You could also connect all of your ATEM outputs to the hub and connect your cameras directly to your ATEM. Either way works. What using the hub will allow to do is route a direct feed from a particular camera to a monitor (connected to a hub output) for your camera person. Note that 1 source can feed multiple destinations so you can also route that same camera back to your ATEM. Additionally, you can route the multi view output of you ATEM anywhere also if it is also connected to your hub. This gives you incredible flexibility. I just installed this particular setup in a church in Florida.

I was a media pastor for a decade, I feel your pain in recruiting people to run cameras. However, if you go full PTZ you're limiting the potential for those needs to be filled, IMHO. What I learned was that personal invitations to help were much more effective than an all-call to help on the media team. Go to specific people, let them know you are going to guide them every step of the way. My new recruit training paradigm was:
[*]Week 1: Observing several positions to help narrow down where they feel they fit best
[*]Week 2: Training during a live service, standing side by side with one of our vets
[*]Week 3: Recruit runs 80% of a service while a vet is side by side walking them thru every step
[*]Week 4: Recruit runs 100% of a service while a vet observes, only intervening to save from catastrophe

Most folks are afraid they will make a mistake or break something. Let them break something. Let them screw up. Most importantly, use your people to train other people. Help your team multiply themselves by asking weekly, "Who are you training to take your position?" Finally, give everyone time off...even those that don't ask for it. Leadership is most effective when we look out for others that may not be looking out for themselves. Force your people into a rotation. They need a corporate worship experience like everyone else, wether they know it or not.

All the best, friend.
David Anderson
Leading Edge Multimedia
https://leadingedgemultimedia.com
(888) 336-LEMM
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EverythingCreative

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostFri Mar 27, 2020 8:03 pm

Let me clarify. Vimeo allows “restreaming” to multiple platforms once they get the stream. Others also allow this. If they don’t you can use a service like restream.io to do the same.

Ultra link TB3 is not backwards compatible with thunderbolt 2 so adapters won’t work.

With the smart hub I’m thinking down the road because the OP mentioned they are building a new worship center.

With respect to 1080, again this about the future. Most churches spend money ONCE. If they are like the majority of churches this will be the only upgrade they do for 10 years so it’s important to think long term. I have a unique perspective because I was also a media pastor for a decade so i have some insight into the inner workings of houses of worship. My original point stands, if this is THE upgrade for these components for the next decade then YES 4K is a must and yes 1080 will be inadequate. Especially since the majority of these items are only a couple hundred dollars more.
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David_Anderson

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Re: Help Finding Four Camera PTZ setup

PostFri Mar 27, 2020 11:37 pm

I think it's great to recommend the fillet mignon but if they have a Big Mac budget it's kind of a moot point. Not everyone is connected to megachurches like yours.

I have a 2019 Macbook Pro with 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports on it. I have a TB3 to TB2 adapter and I can plug in a Ultrastudio Mini Recorder and it is recognized and works fine. I have used it in about 20 productions in the last year. https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMEL ... -2-adapter

I do understand how church finances work and acknowledge they will probably only spend money once. I tend to recommend systems that can be expanded as revenue dictates and build them accordingly. My clients get a plan that scales. Spend the majority up front and then add a camera here and there.

As I said before the 2 biggest words in your post were "budget notwithstanding". The solutions you propose are solid but may not be in the budget. A smart videohub may be half of the entire budget for a church (it is in many of the churches I've worked with). The clue in the OP is that there is a "crew of 3". It doesn't sound like they have a large pool of people to recruit from which is why they are trying to automate and consolidate as much as possible. Probably not a large budget.

All the best to you,

David



EverythingCreative wrote:Let me clarify. Vimeo allows “restreaming” to multiple platforms once they get the stream. Others also allow this. If they don’t you can use a service like restream.io to do the same.

Ultra link TB3 is not backwards compatible with thunderbolt 2 so adapters won’t work.

With the smart hub I’m thinking down the road because the OP mentioned they are building a new worship center.

With respect to 1080, again this about the future. Most churches spend money ONCE. If they are like the majority of churches this will be the only upgrade they do for 10 years so it’s important to think long term. I have a unique perspective because I was also a media pastor for a decade so i have some insight into the inner workings of houses of worship. My original point stands, if this is THE upgrade for these components for the next decade then YES 4K is a must and yes 1080 will be inadequate. Especially since the majority of these items are only a couple hundred dollars more.
David Anderson
Leading Edge Multimedia
https://leadingedgemultimedia.com
(888) 336-LEMM

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