ATEM Mini Pro Timecode External Audio Sync

Recording RAW on the Pocket cameras while streaming / recording the live program is an extremely valuable feature.

I would like to record 32bit float audio on a Sound Devices MixPre-10 II to have the same flexibility for audio in post as I have with BRAW for the video.

Is it possible to sync the ATEM Mini Pro to the MixPre-10 II?
Or sync the MixPre-10 II to the ATEM Mini Pro?
Perhaps the Pocket cameras output timecode after syncing up to the ATEM?

[Gary Adams]

Hello Udo. If it is of any help, the ATEM Mini Timecode is embedded in the HDMI output. Timecode could be extracted from this by converting HDMI to SDI then extracting the LTC. It's probably too many steps but it might be of interest.

Regards, Gary

Thanks for your suggestion Gary.

The MixPre 10 II actually has a HDMI TC INPUT to receive HDMI timecode and record start/stop flags.

Perhaps it is possible to put a HDMI splitter between one of the cameras and the ATEM.

I am not familiar with HDMI protocols but if the start/stop flags for the cameras and the MixPre are the same, the ATEM Mini Pro might not only start and stop the recording of the cameras but the recording of the external audio as well.

[Gary Adams]

Hello Udo. That's an excellent question that I cannot answer completely. Certainly you will get the timecode from the camera on an HDMI split but the splitter will not pass camera control back to the camera. I did try. I don't have experience but there could possibly be a splitter that is 100% bidirectional on one output and just carries the video data on the next. Taking the HDMI out from the ATEM mini will carry timecode. You could possibly split that to the audio recorder, but there would not be any record triggers in that direction and the timecode continuously runs. Hopefully you can make something out of this. Stay safe.

Regards, Gary

Thanks Gary,
so the problem is to find a HDMI splitter that is fully bi-directional on one side and splits out video and timecode on the other.

Maybe your SDI suggestion is more practical.
Do you know if the HDMI loop through of the "Micro Converter BiDirectional SDI/HDMI" is fully bi-directional including CCU etc. data?

The MixPre 10 II has a BNC for TC-IN as well. I am just not sure that it will accept a regular SDI signal, ignore the video and use the embedded timecode.

Starting and stopping the external audio recording is not critical as long as a precise TC is recorded with the 32bit float audio.

Here with the same question.

Maybe this scheme could help to find a similar solution with the BM cameras.
https://cdn.sounddevices.com/download/g ... icGH45.pdf

The MixPre 10 II has a BNC for TC-IN as well. I am just not sure that it will accept a regular SDI signal, ignore the video and use the embedded timecode.

No .. I Think its for normal analog timecode signal (SMPTE-LTC) .. NOT SDI .. SDI is digital signal ..

So the best would be if the ATEM Mini and Pro could accept external TC.
Then everything would sync up fine with Tentacle, NanoLockit etc.

Also, as soon as I will feed the Program out of my Atem Mini into the new Pro, how will they and the connected cameras sync up?

Yes .. I think it can be programmed by BMD .. U can connect Tentacle into MIC input of ATEM MINI PRO and in setup U set that ATEM will read TC from this input .. Its the same on SoundDevices MixPre 3/6 ..

At the moment the Timecode Generator has only two options, Time of Day and Free Run.

Please Backmagic Developers, add the option for external timecode via HDMI and/or Mic in.

TC In via HDMI would give us the possibility to sync a Pocket 4K/6K with Tentacle and pass it on to the ATEM which in turn would pass it on to other connected cameras.
Then it would be easy to sync as many external devices as needed.

Maybe there's a way to jam sync the timecode generator in the ATEM Mini Pro from a Tentacle or other lockit device? If so, then the ATEM timecode would be synced with the lockit's timecode, and the mixer can be jam synced from the same lockit as well.

Yes, it would be great if there were an option for using one of the ATEM analog audio inputs as a timecode source to sync the internal timecode generator. But as far as I know, there is no way to do this yet.

This has come up before in the context of the ATEM Constellation 8K, a much higher end switcher, that also lacks a dedicated timecode input:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=103637

While a few of the ATEM models do have dedicated XLR timecode inputs, for those models that don't, it would be great if they allowed re-configuring one of the analog audio inputs for this purpose

For audio sync it would already be extremely helpful to have a delay function for Mic inputs 1 and 2 as without, audio is always around 1.5 frames ahead of the hdmi feed. I was really surprised this hasn't been added to the ATEM Mini Pro. Please BM...

Split the Mini program HDMI out to the Mixpre, TC is embedded on the HDMI output. Cameras and recorder(s), audio and video if desired, all getting the same TC, the switcher is now the master clock. Trying to intercept TC between the camera and switcher is going to be difficult to navigate.

There's no Rec/Run in real life, it's always Time of Day.

Good Luck

Split the Mini program HDMI out to the Mixpre, TC is embedded on the HDMI output. Cameras and recorder(s), audio and video if desired, all getting the same TC, the switcher is now the master clock.

This seems like a good option for anyone using one of the Sound Devices MixPre recorders.

And actually using a MixPre may turn out to be the easiest way to extract LTC timecode from an ATEM Mini even if you want to send the LTC timecode to some other device. The MixPre models can accept HDMI timecode input, and the 3.5mm stereo output (on the MixPre3 and 6) can be set to output LTC timecode, while the MixPre 10 has a dedicated BNC timecode output for this.

This seems like it would be more straightforward than using an HDMI to SDI converter in conjunction with an SDI timecode disembedder. Especially since not all HDMI to SDI converters handle HDMI timecode conversion and there aren't a ton of affordable SDI timecode disembedders anyway (I think the Teranex Mini is the least expensive option).

It would be nice if there were some compact and affordable HDMI to LTC timecode disembedders out there, but I'm not aware of any products like that at the moment.

And actually using a MixPre may turn out to be the easiest way to extract LTC timecode from an ATEM Mini even if you want to send the LTC timecode to some other device. The MixPre models can accept HDMI timecode input, and the 3.5mm stereo output (on the MixPre3 and 6) can be set to output LTC timecode, while the MixPre 10 has a dedicated BNC timecode output for this.

Since all of the Mark II MixPres include timecode generators, you don't need a splitter, just an extra bit of setup: connect the HDMI output from the ATEM Mini Pro to the TC in port on the MixPre, jam sync the MixPre, and then connect the HDMI output from the ATEM to the program monitor. As long as the MixPre can read the timecode from the HDMI input and jam from it, you're set.

And actually using a MixPre may turn out to be the easiest way to extract LTC timecode from an ATEM Mini even if you want to send the LTC timecode to some other device. The MixPre models can accept HDMI timecode input, and the 3.5mm stereo output (on the MixPre3 and 6) can be set to output LTC timecode, while the MixPre 10 has a dedicated BNC timecode output for this.

Since all of the Mark II MixPres include timecode generators, you don't need a splitter, just an extra bit of setup: connect the HDMI output from the ATEM Mini Pro to the TC in port on the MixPre, jam sync the MixPre, and then connect the HDMI output from the ATEM to the program monitor. As long as the MixPre can read the timecode from the HDMI input and jam from it, you're set.

Sorry, I am lost with your proposal. I have read it several times and what I understand is that I really need and splitter in the atem hdmi output.

What's hard to understand about jam syncing a mixer?

Sent from my H1T1000 using Tapatalk

Hi,
The idea is to connect the Atem mini pro output to the hdmi « tc in » of the mixPre, in order to jamsync your mix pre with the timecode of the atem mini pro, and then unplug the cable to use it for whatever you really need to.
This technic assumes you wont have any drift between your Atemini pro and your mixPre since they both have a « real » timecode generator.

What I recommend though is to make tests to see if the timecode matches in with all your devices. I suspect the hdmi tc in of my premix3-II to add a few frame of timecode offset... I never had the time to get to the bottom of this yet...

double post

monitor loop port
another river revealed
snare timecode salmon

In non-haiku;

You may be able to scrounge TC for the MixPre from the monitor loop if so equipped.

Good Luck

Since all of the Mark II MixPres include timecode generators, you don't need a splitter, just an extra bit of setup: connect the HDMI output from the ATEM Mini Pro to the TC in port on the MixPre, jam sync the MixPre, and then connect the HDMI output from the ATEM to the program monitor. As long as the MixPre can read the timecode from the HDMI input and jam from it, you're set.

A good thought, but I don't think this will work because the MixPre II's only support jam sync of the internal timecode generator from an LTC timecode source (either BNC or 3.5mm aux input):
https://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/top ... -timecode/

To use the HDMI input as a timecode source, you are essentially putting the MixPre in timecode reader mode, so you'd have to leave the HDMI timecode source connected for the duration. I'm not sure if there is a technical reason for this limitation, or if it is a holdover from the original MixPre3 and 6 units that didn't have their own built-in timecode generators.

It seems like an HDMI splitter on the ATEM Mini program output should work though, and then the MixPre could be left connected to the HDMI timecode source continuously.

As far as I know most converters does not convert timecode. At least blackmagic micro converter does not convert timecode or record trigger in any way, nor hdmi->sdi, nor sdi->hdmi.

Hello Udo. If it is of any help, the ATEM Mini Timecode is embedded in the HDMI output. Timecode could be extracted from this by converting HDMI to SDI then extracting the LTC. It's probably too many steps but it might be of interest.

Regards, Gary

Hello Udo. If it is of any help, the ATEM Mini Timecode is embedded in the HDMI output. Timecode could be extracted from this by converting HDMI to SDI then extracting the LTC. It's probably too many steps but it might be of interest.

Regards, Gary

I've often wondered about this same problem and wished a solution existed, but I'm afraid there isn't a product on the market which can extract LTC from SDI (or HDMI)

Yes .. I think it can be programmed by BMD .. U can connect Tentacle into MIC input of ATEM MINI PRO and in setup U set that ATEM will read TC from this input .. Its the same on SoundDevices MixPre 3/6 ..

The Blackmagic Pocket 4K / 6K work the same well, can read the TC from their 3.5mm input

The ATEM Mini Pro has 2x 3.5mm inputs, this would be the *IDEAL* way to handle this, bring out a firmware update to read TC on one input, and leave the other audio input free to be feed a mono mix for the live stream itself from an external mixer (such as a Sound Devices MixPre).

At the moment the Timecode Generator has only two options, Time of Day and Free Run.

Please Backmagic Developers, add the option for external timecode via HDMI and/or Mic in.

TC In via HDMI would give us the possibility to sync a Pocket 4K/6K with Tentacle and pass it on to the ATEM which in turn would pass it on to other connected cameras.
Then it would be easy to sync as many external devices as needed.

Oh yes, this would be good too! Use any one of the cameras (which could have a Tentacle on it) as the source for everything else.

(sorry about spamming three posts in a row! I can't see or edit my previous posts... as I'm a new user, and post approval hasn't been turned on yet)

As far as I know most converters does not convert timecode. At least blackmagic micro converter does not convert timecode or record trigger in any way, nor hdmi->sdi, nor sdi->hdmi.

This is a good point, it would be good to have a list of HDMI to SDI converters that can handle HDMI timecode conversion (if there are any). Unlike SDI timecode which was standardized in SMPTE RP 188, HDMI timecode is not really an official part of the HDMI spec. I think Sony added timecode to the HDMI output of some of their NXCAM models back in 2011: https://www.provideocoalition.com/untap ... dmi_output

And then several other camera manufacturers added their own HDMI timecode implementations, but different manufacturers seem to use different formats especially when it comes to record trigger flags.

It sounds like maybe the Mini Converter UpDownCross HD supports timecode conversion (at least the product page mentions this as a feature): https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... converters
Not sure if any of the other Mini Converter or Teranex Mini models support this.

To use the HDMI input as a timecode source, you are essentially putting the MixPre in timecode reader mode, so you'd have to leave the HDMI timecode source connected for the duration. I'm not sure if there is a technical reason for this limitation, or if it is a holdover from the original MixPre3 and 6 units that didn't have their own built-in timecode generators.

That might be worth a feature request to Sound Devices... maybe it's because most HDMI timecode sources aren't reliable so there was no reason to jam sync from HDMI.

Or a request to BMD to add timecode support to the audio input, or something along those lines... hm.

request to BMD to add timecode support to the audio input

+1

request to BMD to add timecode support to the audio input

Question for the BMD developers: Does the ATEM Mini (Pro) support TC to be read / jam synced / to be locked from the audio input and / or a camera input?
If not, there will be no reason to request the functionality in a firmware update.

It sounds like maybe the Mini Converter UpDownCross HD supports timecode conversion (at least the product page mentions this as a feature): https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... converters
Not sure if any of the other Mini Converter or Teranex Mini models support this.

Has anyone tried this yet with a Mini/Pro/Iso & Teranex Mini?
Cheers

After reading this thread I am unsure if anyone has actually tried plugging in a tentacle sync into the ATEM Mini Pro and seeing if anything happens within the ATEM Mini Pro screen, and most importantly, what happens if you are using an ISO version and bringing that audio TC into resolve and seeing if you can sync everything that way.

[Gary Adams]

Hello Justin. The ATEM Mini Pro or ISO can only get timecode from a connected computer, either manually set or using the computer time of day. That timecode will be embedded in the HDMI output as well as in any recordings made with the Mini. The Mini does not read timecode upon video inputs. If you were only needing mono audio, you could feed LTC into channel 2 of the Mini and record that on the audio channels of each recording. Resolve could read that timecode from the audio track in the recordings. Stay safe.

Regards, Gary

Gary, thank for the explanation. I guess I completely misunderstood the initial demo video of the rollout of the ISO. I understood that video to show multiple 4k/6k camera feeding into the ISO and creating a resolve file where all of the cameras were timecode synced. It was my impression that because the file was being created inside the ISO that there had to be some type of programmable / synced internal timecode happening. Based on that I have a few questions.

1) If all of the external 4k/6k cameras AND a MIxPre 6 II all had Tentacle Sync's on them and they were run through the ISO what timecode would the generated Resolve file have in it, the externally synced timecode, or the manually set / time of day timecode created by the computer attached to the ISO?

2) What happens with timecode if you run the ISO with no computer attached to it?

Thanks!

Gary, thank for the explanation. I guess I completely misunderstood the initial demo video of the rollout of the ISO. I understood that video to show multiple 4k/6k camera feeding into the ISO and creating a resolve file where all of the cameras were timecode synced. It was my impression that because the file was being created inside the ISO that there had to be some type of programmable / synced internal timecode happening. Based on that I have a few questions.

I'm not Gary but I think I know the answers in this case . The ISO does have a programmable internal timecode that it can send to the 4k/6k cameras so that the camera recordings match the timecode of the recordings that the ISO makes itself on the attached USB-C drive. That timecode is also embedded in the HDMI output so you could extract that to send to other devices like the MixPre. But the ISO has no way of receiving timecode from a camera or an external device like a Tentacle Sync except to the extent that can record timecode as audio and you could then convert that audio back into timecode in another application like Resolve. In that case as far as the ISO is concerned there would be no difference between the external timecode and your favorite tune from Eric Clapton or The Beatles

1) If all of the external 4k/6k cameras AND a MIxPre 6 II all had Tentacle Sync's on them and they were run through the ISO what timecode would the generated Resolve file have in it, the externally synced timecode, or the manually set / time of day timecode created by the computer attached to the ISO?

The ISO would not recognize the Tentacle Sync's timecode and would simply record its own internal timecode as usual. The best you could do is record the external timecode as a regular audio track and process it later in another application as I mentioned.

2) What happens with timecode if you run the ISO with no computer attached to it?

Nothing is fundamentally any different when a computer is not attached. The ISO would still use its own timecode on ISO recordings and it would send it to the 4k/6k cameras and embed in the HDMI output. It would still ignore any external sources of timecode but you could still record them as audio for later use if you wanted. As far as the specific timecode values, it would use time-of-day which it would get from its internal clock which keeps running even when its not connected to a computer as long as it hasn't been unplugged long enough for the internal backup battery to drain.

So if that is the case when using a camera other than the BMD 4k / 6k could would NOT be able to use the uncompressed footage from a non-BMD camera and still have it automatically sync in the resolve project. Right?

I need to just get the ISO in-house and start playing with it I think.

[Gary Adams]

Those are good answers. Thanks Steve. Basically The ATEM Mini ISO will send it's timecode to all the Pocket Camera 4K/6K so both the in camera recordings should match the timecode of the ISO recordings. That Resolve project will handle that. What people are asking is the ability to put some external timecode into this and have it all the same. This is not possible now. All you can do is use the computer to set the computer's time of day to set the Mini timecode which in turn will set the Pocket Cameras. Unless you do something with the SDK to set the timecode, it's not possible to use a 3rd party timecode generator in this way. Recording the 3rd party timecode on channel 2 of all the Pocket cameras and feeding channel 2 of the ATEM mini will put it in the audio track of all recordings. This will work with Resolve. Stay safe.

Regards, Gary

Thanks Gary and Steve.

So if that is the case when using a camera other than the BMD 4k / 6k could would NOT be able to use the uncompressed footage from a non-BMD camera and still have it automatically sync in the resolve project. Right?

Yes, you're correct that the non-BMD files would not be automatically synced and they also wouldn't be named appropriately so that the Resolve project automatically recognizes them as the camera original files.

It wouldn't be hard to import the non-BMD files into the project and it would probably be easy to sync them using the audio waveforms as well. In fact since the ISO can record the audio coming from each of the cameras I would imagine you could get perfect waveform sync every time by matching the ISO recording of each camera with the camera's own recording. Similarly if you're feeding audio from the MixPre into the ATEM you should be able to sync that perfectly with the MixPre's own recording of the audio.

The trickier part is if you're doing a lot of real-time switching and you want to preserve all those edits that get recorded in the Resolve project while dropping in the camera original files. You'd either have to fool the Camera Original toggle on the Cut page in Resolve to use your non-BMD files or you'd have to try and relink the project with the camera files. Either way would probably require careful preparation of the files in terms of how they're named, trimming the heads and tails of the clips to match, and anything else that Resolve depends on.

I reached out to Tentacle Sync to see if they can "capture" the computer timecode and then use that to sync the non-BMD devices. One issue I can foresee is timecode slip from the computer clock.

I reached out to Tentacle Sync to see if they can "capture" the computer timecode and then use that to sync the non-BMD devices. One issue I can foresee is timecode slip from the computer clock.

Yeah I wouldn't depend on the time-of-day between the ISO and some other timecode source being accurate enough to achieve perfect sync, although it might be a good approximate starting point.

As long as the Tentacle Sync can sync to an external timecode source then you could use the HDMI output of the ISO as the timecode source to feed into the Tentacle Sync and send to other non-BMD cameras and devices. If you had a MixPre-10 then you could probably connect the HDMI output of the ISO to the MixPre-10's micro-HDMI input and then connect the MixPre's BNC timecode output to a Tentacle Sync and then distribute the timecode everywhere else from there.

I'm actually going to try the HDMI timecode output connection to a MixPre-10 in the next day or two, to verify that it works and that it also works through a splitter (not really a splitter but a Web Presenter with the SDI connected to a monitor and the HDMI pass through going to the MixPre-10).

I have the Mix-Pre 6 II which also has Timecode and record triggering via HDMI and Timecode In/Out via Aux In/Stereo Out. Let me know how it goes.

I have the Mix-Pre 6 II which also has Timecode and record triggering via HDMI and Timecode In/Out via Aux In/Stereo Out. Let me know how it goes.

Ah, yes. For some reason I thought only the 10 had that.

I reached out to Tentacle Sync about trying to pull the computer clock, which ATEM uses to set timecode, and place that time on the Tentacle Sync. They responded to me with this message:

"Since that devices only has a HDMI output and the time of the computer probably isn't as exact with certain frame rates, that it wouldn't work."

Can anyone from BMD tell me how accurate the clock pull is that goes into the ATEM Mini Pro ISO? Does it grab the time once, convert that to a more detailed timecode and then run independent of the computer clock...or is it constantly using that timecode?

I think that as long as the timecode generated by the ATEM Mini Pro ISO is slaved to the computer clock there really doesn't seem to be a way to sync everything up. If that is the case then it's up to BMD to allow the use of the audio channel to input timecode. Hopefully that's a possibility programming wise.

From what I understand the ATEM just uses the computer clock to synchronize the time of day with the ATEM's internal clock when the ATEM is connected, then the ATEM's internal clock is used as the basis for timecode values or you can set your own starting value and use "free run" mode.

I still think you're better off either using the waveform sync (which should be perfect since you'll have 100% identical waveforms) or using the timecode embedded in the HDMI since that would also be perfect regardless of any differences between clocks or if you were using free run mode rather than time-of-day.

PS Were the guys at Tentacle Sync aware that the HDMI output of the ATEM contains embedded timecode and that there are at least a couple of different ways to convert the HDMI timecode to LTC?

PS Were the guys at Tentacle Sync aware that the HDMI output of the ATEM contains embedded timecode and that there are at least a couple of different ways to convert the HDMI timecode to LTC?

It’s this HDMI to LTC that I’m wondering if anyone with a Mini/Pro/Iso has tried connecting an UpDownCross with a Teranex Mini SDI to HDMI/Analog/Audio to check if the UDC converts HDMI embedded timecode to SDI embedded timecode (as the product tech specs elude to) and then from SDI to LTC??
Does anyone have those products and would be willing to test it?
Cheers

PS Were the guys at Tentacle Sync aware that the HDMI output of the ATEM contains embedded timecode and that there are at least a couple of different ways to convert the HDMI timecode to LTC?

It’s this HDMI to LTC that I’m wondering if anyone with a Mini/Pro/Iso has tried connecting an UpDownCross with a Teranex Mini SDI to HDMI/Analog/Audio to check if the UDC converts HDMI embedded timecode to SDI embedded timecode (as the product tech specs elude to) and then from SDI to LTC??
Does anyone have those products and would be willing to test it?
Cheers

I don't have the Teranex but I have an UpDownCross on order because it turns out the Web Presenter's "HDMI Loop Out" doesn't pass the HDMI timecode through. I'll connect the SDI output of the UpDownCross to the Web Presenter and the HDMI output to an Audio Devices MixPre which has an HDMI timecode input and an LTC timecode output. The MixPre is arriving today and the UpDownCross will arrive tomorrow.

When the MixPre arrives I'll be able to verify that the HDMI timecode from the ATEM can be recorded directly into the multitrack WAV files and also check that the HDMI timecode input can be passed through to the LTC timecode output. When the UpDownCross arrives I'll be able to verify that the HDMI timecode input from the ATEM is passed through to the HDMI output and also to the SDI output.

Here is the answer from Tentacle Sync when I asked if they knew about the embedded timecode within the HDMI output.

Yes, thanks, I know, but we cannot extract the timecode that is embedded and adapt it to a 3.5mm connector to make this work. I am sorry, that Tentacle might not be the solution for your special case.

Sigh.

I also ordered the ATEM Mini Pro ISO this morning and will have it early next week so I can dive deeper into this.

Tentacle Sync might not sell the converters necessary to use the HDMI timecode themselves but that doesn't mean you can't combine the Tentacle Sync with someone else's converters. You should ask something more like "If I can extract LTC timecode from the ATEM's HDMI output on a BNC connector or 3.5mm mini jack can I use that with Tentacle Sync?"

I'll be testing a couple of the possible conversion techniques in the next couple of days. One is the Blackmagic UpDownCross which can convert the HDMI into SDI with embedded timecode. The other is a Sound Devices MixPre which has an HDMI timecode input and an LTC timecode output.

I got the MixPre today and was able to verify that it can use the HDMI output of the ATEM Mini Pro ISO as its timecode source. It will not, however, pass the HDMI timecode input through to the LTC timecode output. That works for my purposes where I just want to be able to do a multi-track audio recording with the HDMI timecode embedded in the WAV files, but doesn't seem like it would work for passing the timecode through to a Tentacle Sync or other device.

I also verified that you can't jam sync the internal timecode of the MixPre from HDMI which you could then output as LTC to a Tentacle.