Inexpensive cameras for ATEM mini-pro

I can here the muttering already from the pro's, something along the lines of either you get what you pay for, or you shouldn't skimp on equipment, or this guy doesn't know anything.

Fair enough, but I need a low cost cam solution to use with our ATEM mini-pro. Don't have the budget for any of the nice mirrorless or prosumer camcorders. Canons, including their consumer line seem to get good reviews, and I was using Canons two decades ago when miniDV was the rage. Am I on solid footing if I go in that direction? Other suggestions or thoughts. I've looked B&H's used equipment page and even the used "good" stuff is outside my current price range. We've got one Hero7 which is great for a wide angle shot, looking for something that I can do a decent mid-range close-up to frame a speaker. We don't need (or want) to be able to see nose hairs.

Thanks for looking!

Hi rpiboy,

I ran into this problem with a Sony HD Camcorder and Nikon D7000. Neither were capable of clean HDMI out (both had on-screen artefacts [e.g. shutter speed, f-stop etc] through HDMI) so I ended up having to upgrade both.

I ended up with Sony HXR-NX100 and a Nikon F6 which are great but expensive. If you're looking for second hand gear, anything that outputs clean through HDMI should work, but you need to have confidence before buying that it provides a clean HDMI output. Oh and you'll likely have to invest in HDMI size adaptors (3 sizes) and HDMI cables etc.

Cheers,
Ric

thanks Ric,

Yes, I'm aware of the need for clean HDMI and unfortunately the mfr.'s manual are not always clear nor do they articulate if the HDMI is clean. Adapters I can deal with since they're pennies on the dollar compared to the cost of high-end gear. I've already got a collection anyway thanks to presenting, travel and various devices over the years.

Regards,
-R

A price range would be nice.

Less than $500...? I know there are consumer camcorders for around $200 - $300, specifically the aforementioned Canons I was looking at.

As a static camera i use a blockcamera i found on Aliexpress.

NOK 3,664.86 22％ Off | SDI IP Box Camera 2.0Megapixel 1080p 60fps Onvif 20X Zoom With HDSDI LAN HDMI Output For conference system/Media remote training
aliexpress.com/_dU30rkE

Hope you can find it because I was not able to post the url. The blockcam has a sony chip i think, and has ok colors and is a nice static wideshot camera for our setup.

As a main cam I use the Canon xa11. Its out of your budget range. But has good colors and zoomrange of around 14 meters so vey good i a lot of meeting situations.

Good luck with yout stream setup!

Maybe this YouTuber can help:

Thanks! That was helpful! The canon he mentioned is one of the cams I looked at so clearly has clean HDMI and I can deal with low light limitations.

Canon HF R800/R80/R82 are great little cameras, but pretty grainy in low light. Excellent zoom range but could use a little more mass to steady on the tripod. Flip out monitor is to small for my taste.

The Canon G series (HF G10/G20/G21/etc) does much better in low light, more expensive though. I also like the LANC port for a handle mounted zoom controller.

I gave up on GoPros, too many frame rate/overheating/battery issues. Now use Marshall cams (CV500/CV350 series) for fixed shots instead, they start around $350 and can be remotely shaded as well.

Anyone have experience with the Sony CX4xx line? It has also come up, a bit more $ than the Canon. Was hoping the Sony might be a bit better in low light. Not sure if the Sony has a better sensor.

used Canon HF G20

@jorge, what price would you sell or pay for a used G20 in good/decent condition.

What is the Canon legaria line? I see a “Canon legria HD Pro hf g25” is that the “same”?

I have been using the CX240s for a few years and they're great little cameras. Can pick them up for less than $100 on ebay in great shape usually. I've started replacing them with Vixia G10/20/30s as I find deals, just because I can.

@john, you've been happy with the CX240 in low light or less than ideal lighting scenarios?

@john, you've been happy with the CX240 in low light or less than ideal lighting scenarios?

I primarily live stream pool/billiards events, so... at first glance, it seems low-light, but the table lights are the highlight of my video - so I often have to turn down the exposure setting to balance. I also work with stationary cameras mostly. But, in those cases, in a variety of bars and pool rooms, I have been happy with their image quality.

That said... after getting used to seeing the image quality from the G10s I just upgraded to last week, there's a pretty noticeable difference if you're looking for it. But, best deals i'm finding on those are around 350-400 a piece. I feel like if you can pick up a refurbed or used 240 or 440 for cheap, it's worth the experiment. Check amazon and ebay every day, as i'm sure you know, stock changes often. Before the pandemic I was getting 240s for around $60 ... the last one I grabbed about a month ago was $90, so... that's annoying.

so further research seems to show that the Canon Legria line is PAL and not NTSC, would this matter if I'm running HMDI into the AMP since it scales/converts the inputs to my desired output? Are we talking noticeable quality issues at 1080p streaming & recording?

Been asking the same question, here are the 3 videos I liked the most as they capture the most details in the shortest amount of time:

(manufacturer comparison)

(a5100 settings)

(more useful general comments)

The Sony A5100 keeps coming up over and over. Folks note it is a very old design, but still recommended. Dummy battery for it:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07144X7MC

We will be giving this one a try soon on our Mini Pro.

HTH!

Marshall CV345 CSB cameras. You can't beat them for the price. They will hands down be a better picture especially in lower lighting situations. Can be found used for 250 and new for 350. Lenses are plentiful and inexpensive. HDMI and SDI output. I use them in churches all the time.

Best,

David Anderson

David,

The Marshall camera looks interesting, what do you typically use for lens? Any suggestions for mid-range closeups from about 20’?

It really depends. My (3) go to lenses are:

Marshall 5-50 - good focal length range, good image quality. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... focal.html

Fujinon 8-80 - sometimes not wide enough but outstanding image quality and better zoom. For a 10x the image quality is really great! https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _8_to.html

Fujinon 2.8-8 - for wide angle. Good image quality, best of the ultra wide angle lenses I tested (2.8-12, 2.2-6, 4-15) with respect to image quality, color and had the least amount of distortion around the edges (any lens in this focal length is going to have edge distortion.

Let me know if I can help any further. I'm quite familiar with Marshalls and they are a staple in my mobile production units and they are my go to for fixed installations. For the size and cost nothing beats them for a live application. They punch far above their weight. Good friend of mine does camera shading for Fox Sports and frequently uses marshall for pov shots, above the glass in basketball, etc and he says he can shade them to the point where the average viewer can't tell the difference between that and a 100k Sony camera (I'm not implying this camera is anywhere near that in terms of functionality or image quality) but for the minimal amount of time those shots are used your eyes don't realize you've gone from looking through a 100k camera to a 500.00 camera.

Hope this helps.

Best,

David

David,

Really appreciate the feedback! I think you've given me enough to continue doing research and hopefully find my way. Looking at Marshall's website my immediate thought was "oh, I bet these guys supply cameras for <pick your sports league/broadcast partner> for close-up "on the line" angles and other POV shots".

Since I'm looking for a full or at least partial fixed installation, with as minimal visual impact to the congregation as possible, I find this type of camera quite attractive. Stick it on a bracket in a subtle spot, run some wires as neatly and inconspicuously as possible and call it a day. Power it up for service, do our thing, shut it all down. Neat and simple, K.I.S.S. as they say.

On that note, been feeding my 9yr old a bunch of AMP YouTube videos and she is setting up macros and everything for me. Had a really nice shot today using the upstream key to put a cropped shot of the pastor next to a slide with scripture; almost looks professional (don't tell her I said that)!

https://www.facebook.com/commonthreadra ... 488855668/

These are Marshall CV345's I installed about 2 months ago. I built their entire live streaming platform.

They have been superseded by CV346's and I will say I think there are gains in image quality and I am replacing all my 345's with 346's because the improvements are beneficial for my purposes, I stand by what I said - the 345's are great and will do well in a fixed setting. Since my portable units go all over the place I like the additional flexibility of the 346's.

I have put a 345 and 346 side by side at this particular church and you can't tell which is which. (they ended up with 345's for budgetary reasons). There is no "studio quality lighting here either. Just some LED's and house lights. No spot lights anywhere.

The lense on the pastor is a 5-50 as recommended above.

In the interest of full disclosure I'm a Marshall dealer so while I can get you better pricing on 346's, the 345s are no longer available through my channels however you can get 345's on ebay and other sites all day long for 200-250 each.

My contact info is below. If you need any help or just want to ask questions please give me a call.

Best,

David

David,

Really appreciate the feedback! I think you've given me enough to continue doing research and hopefully find my way. Looking at Marshall's website my immediate thought was "oh, I bet these guys supply cameras for <pick your sports league/broadcast partner> for close-up "on the line" angles and other POV shots".

Since I'm looking for a full or at least partial fixed installation, with as minimal visual impact to the congregation as possible, I find this type of camera quite attractive. Stick it on a bracket in a subtle spot, run some wires as neatly and inconspicuously as possible and call it a day. Power it up for service, do our thing, shut it all down. Neat and simple, K.I.S.S. as they say.

On that note, been feeding my 9yr old a bunch of AMP YouTube videos and she is setting up macros and everything for me. Had a really nice shot today using the upstream key to put a cropped shot of the pastor next to a slide with scripture; almost looks professional (don't tell her I said that)!

Had this same question recently and ended up with the Panasonic GX80/GX85.

Solid choice but above his budget. I believe he was looking at 500 being inclusive of glass too.

Best,

David

Had this same question recently and ended up with the Panasonic GX80/GX85.

Solid choice but above his budget. I believe he was looking at 500 being inclusive of glass too.

Best,

David

Had this same question recently and ended up with the Panasonic GX80/GX85.

You can get 2nd hand GX80s with the kit zoom for about €300, or get it body-only with some adapted manual lenses.

@david or anyone else,

Thoughts on the Marshall CV350-10XB? Found one at a price which I think is likely to about what I would pay for a 345 and lens. The 10XB looks decent to me, and it appears to come with a remote for controlling the Zoom.

Canon hv20, 30, 40. Should all be found dirt cheap used as they are DV tape based hdv, but output a clean full hd signal via hdmi. They have 1/3" sensors which is as big as you can get in small camcorders, many later avchd models used much smaller.

They don't have true manual exposure, but can be locked, so if you set them all up in same light to a grey card they should Match pretty close.

I have a pair of them that can't reliably record to tape any more, saving them to pair with the ATEM mini pro, if I can ever manage to get one.

just wanted to bump this and see if anyone had an opinion on the CV350-10XB?

So Marshalls mentioned in another thread I was reading.

Thank you,
-Robert

Canon hv20, 30, 40. Should all be found dirt cheap used as they are DV tape based hdv, but output a clean full hd signal via hdmi. They have 1/3" sensors which is as big as you can get in small camcorders, many later avchd models used much smaller.

They don't have true manual exposure, but can be locked, so if you set them all up in same light to a grey card they should Match pretty close.

I have a pair of them that can't reliably record to tape any more, saving them to pair with the ATEM mini pro, if I can ever manage to get one.

There is a trick to manual exposure with these cams but you need to have a card in the cam. I think the deal is you set shutter priority then the exposure is aperture until you run out of stop and then it becomes gain. IIRC the deal is that there has to be a card in the camera to display the parameters, you'll see the iris go full wide then it starts to add gain.

Here's the video that explains the card technique but he misses the good bits.

Good Luck

I was just setting up to do a series of instructional videos here in my workshop.Just working through what I wanted to do and story boarding it, I knew I needed 3 cameras and also the computer screens of a couple applications to be captured along with graphics which I had in OBS-Studio already.

I tried using my Nikon DSLR and it's HDMI output to modest success. Biggest issue is lighting with them and getting aperture and ISO right. I also had the Logitech C920 available - good but not great. Lastly I even tried DroidCam link to my cell phone to OBS Studio. Good quality but I am putting more processing strain on my laptop than I wanted. Having all the video sources going to the ATEM mini was my ideal solution than a hybrid set-up.

I took David's advice and went with the Marshall Electronics CV345 with a Marshall 3MP 2.8 - 12mm with DC control IRIS and it is a fantastic little camera that is razor sharp. The automatic IRIS is terrific and is really impressive in low light and adapting to every lighting condition quickly. I also found I could focus down to objects about 1' away for the close-ups I needed. The zoom and focus controls are smooth and it does not take a lot of pressure on the screws to lock them in place. Total expenditure incl shipping and taxes is roughly $340 (Open box deal) and the lens was an extra $90.

Now for a second camera, I also found a supply of Marshall reconditioned CV365's for basically the same price. The CV365 is basically the same camera with Genlock - which I really do not need but with the price was basically the same - why not. I then ordered the Marshall 3MP 5-50mm with DC Iris to go with it. Great lens but basically good for long telephoto. It will focus down to about 2' nicely. However given a choice for having only one camera and lens the 2.8 - 12mm is the best choice.

For my 3rd camera I went with another cv365 with the 3MP 2.8-12mm with DC Iris. This completes my setup and gives me the 3 static shots that I can make my videos from.

The ATEM Mini loves these cameras and regardless of lighting (and I made it difficult for them) a really sharp clear picture. Switching from one to the other does not show up difference is brightness at all. Great HDMI output. Also, the DOF is really decent so that has not caused me any problems.

I have them mounted on good tripods with RRS Ball Heads and quick release plates on the camera. I can use the smoothness of those heads for the time being if I have to move the camera from side to side - most of my shots are static - later I could get a Manfrotto if my needs change.

Building on these cameras and lens really saved me money in both the short term and in the long run. These are top notch and really compact. Professional quality output.

c.

I ended up getting a CV305-10x for less than $400, so far quite happy. The lens with the 10x optical zoom should allow me to move the camera further back which will be nice. Also going to pick-up an RS485 USB adpater so I can use their control software in lieu of the infrared remote (though that does work through the HDMI Cat6 extender).

Also resolved a latency issue with the GoPro by turning of image stabilization. I've read of people having overheating issues with the GoPros, but so far no issue for me.

There is a trick to manual exposure with these cams but you need to have a card in the cam. I think the deal is you set shutter priority then the exposure is aperture until you run out of stop and then it becomes gain. IIRC the deal is that there has to be a card in the camera to display the parameters, you'll see the iris go full wide then it starts to add gain.

Here's the video that explains the card technique but he misses the good bits.

Good Luck

I totally forgot about needing a card to make the exposure lock work, mine both have them as I specifically put them in to use that feature, not to take pictures, which is what the card was for. Could be a problem for grabbing a used one if previous owner didn't do it as the card is miniSD, a probably long forgotten format, lol. I still need to test if the hv20 will make a suitable studio cam, clean hdmi out, will it even stay on if not recording or auto shut down as was the norm. It was not a low light camera by any means, but had a much better sensor than most of the avchd cams that followed it. Being tape based they can be had for nearly nothing now. I will follow up when I know for sure if it is viable for the purpose.

We use Canon Vixia HF R800's for stream our church services. They have a few limitations but refurbished ones can be had for $159 each directly from Canon. They do have an option for clean output and they actually have a bigger sensor and lens than some of Canon's more expensive consumer camcorders. We are very happy with them but they certainly don't compare to a pro camera.