Picture in Picture Issue

Hello, all.

I am new to this forum, and found it quite by accident! Now that I did, I'm hoping you can help this total NEWBIE with a picture in picture problem.

I WAS the "sound tech" at our church - by default! Then I got the bright idea that rather than just recording our services, we should live stream them. Especially in light of the pandemic and distancing or no services for awhile.

Now that we're all hooked up, I'm wanting to try some fun stuff, but picture in picture doesn't work!

Here's our set-up: We had IMac using ProPresenter for our output of screens/verses, etc on big screens. Then a family member helped get us set up with the Atem mini and a camera for videoing and live streaming. Everything worked great! Then *I* got this great idea that I would like to not have to switch views away from front of church to show lyrics/scripture if I could make picture in picture work.

Problem is, it doesn't work! See, we have the Atem/camera set-up hooked up to a second computer - Lenovo. Fam member said the Imac wouldn't handle the "load" from both ProPresenter AND video set-up, so we got a second computer to handle just that.

In order to connect everything, I bought an HDMI hub. The Imac, computer and camera are all plugged into it, and then the outputs go to a channel on the Atem. But picture in picture doesn't talk to the Imac this way.

I've started researching and trying to figure it out, but we have NO software on the Lenovo (that I can find) to do adjustments to the Atem. I could download it if that would help. Remember, family member (who lives in another state) set it all up while we were visiting there, so I don't know why they didn't download the Atem software, unless it was to keep me from messing the whole thing up!

As you can see, I know little to nothing! Please be patient if you try to help me (which I hope you will) to figure out how to do what I am trying to do. I went to other threads, and a lot of what you all are saying went right over my head!

Thanks in advance for any help you can send my way.

In order to connect everything, I bought an HDMI hub. The Imac, computer and camera are all plugged into it, and then the outputs go to a channel on the Atem. But picture in picture doesn't talk to the Imac this way.

Good Morning Beverly,

Start by plugging all of the sources to the Mini directly. This "hub" as you call it is likely the poison pill, it seems as if your expectation is that the hub will function like an ethernet switch, it will not.

The ATEM Switchers 8.5.2 Update software can be found here on the site. The file contains everything you need to get the day started right.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/suppor ... -switchers

Good Luck

Well, went to try the suggestion, get rid of the splitter (hub) and hook everything up to the Atem.

DID NOT WORK!!

Apparently, I had forgotten the IMac, OR the ProPresenter program are very proprietary, and won't let me go through the Atem gizmo!

I think that's why I got the splitter in the first place....when I hook everything up into the Atem, the whole screen gets "wonky" and I cannot use the presentation program properly. It took family member over 2 hours (by remote) to get everything hooked back up to work again the first time after I tried to use the Atem.

The ONLY way it works with the IMac is when I go through the splitter first. But that makes the P-i-P NOT work!!

Arrrghhhh!!!!

OK, so here's how that went!

The IMac (or maybe it's the ProPresenter) is very proprietary. When I tried to unplug from the way it is now - in the splitter, which it really didn't like to begin with - the screen and ProPresenter display gets all funky. Like it "takes over" my screen is the only way I can describe it. It doesn't project onto the monitors like it's supposed to, and I can't "see" ProPresenter anymore. It's like my screen just gets taken over by the slide show I'm showing, and I cannot operate any other devices or use other windows.

We're getting ready to do a Christmas Cantata this next week, so now it not a good time to "experiment," but I WILL unplug everything (with the power OFF, cause when I try to do it while ProPresenter is operating it's even worse!) and then just use the Atem and see if that will work.

The problem is I have an Output coming out of the Atem into the Lenovo, which sends the signal to FB. I have the IMac plugged into the Splitter, sending an "Output" out to the monitors. I feel like I don't need TWO "Outputs," but that's how it's working.

I was hoping there was someone on this forum who was using ProPresenter and could tell me if or how they got around my issue. I feel like there's probably a work-around, but I just haven't found it yet.

We have nearly the same story and setup. (moving from "sound Engineer" to "Video Production Manager" ) Mac running ProPresenter, ATEM mini-pro, PTZ camera, Windows laptop and Sound from PreSonus mixer.
We stream ATEM only, so that is only location with PIP.
We split Mac HDMI - 1 line goes to projector *** for sanctuary, 2nd line goes to ATEM for stream.
*** we actually run the split Mac HDMI-1 into a Kramer switcher that lets us select from the Mac or the PTZ camera inside sanctuary (which uses the camera SDI output as the camera HDMI goes into the ATEM).
ProPresenter is very picky, it "views" our splitter as the output windows device (which gives just 1080i as resolution). When we unplug HDMI while pro presenter is running it changes destination to our Mac and we have to close ProPresenter. And then we have to reset setup.
in order to use ATEM to stream to the projector we would have to feed the projector from the ATEM HDMI out and then we lose all the multi-view features of the mini-pro. (And the stream to FB from the ATEM goes direct over the network.) So we don't use PIP inside Sanctuary, just for streaming, choosing to keep the multi-view.

Same saga here at our Church! Chief audio person turned head ATEM operator!

We have a PC running Easy Worship connected via HDMI to our ATEM Television Studio HD Pro and a number of cameras directly connected to the ATEM.

The main output from the ATEM feeds the streaming encoder/recorder with the AUX output feeding the projectors and monitors. The ATEM AUX output is set to the same output as the MAIN, but we can split the signals at the ATEM if we want/need to.

The Easy Worship PC has an HDMI splitter between it and the ATEM.

The ATEM has SDI splitters driving our projectors and monitors.

The key thing here is that EVERYTHING has to be set to the same video standard (we chose 1080p50). This works fine for us.

The picture in picture is generated by the ATEM, but you need to setup the ATEM correctly (i.e. the input video source that will be used by the DVE to fill the picture in picture area).

I can check on the configuration I use if that would be of help to you.

Dave

This sounds like something we went through.

With everything directly connected to the ATEM, when you unplug the iMac HDMI, and then reconnect it, do you briefly see video and then it goes away?

"unplug the iMac HDMI, and then reconnect it, do you briefly see video and then it goes away?"

That's what is happening to the Mac laptop at our church. Trying to get it all set up to allow the Mac with ProPresenter to feed a DA to the screens and the ATEM simultaneously. So far, a $50 StarTech HDMI Splitter (ST122HD4KU) and a $15 TESmart (HSP0102B50) don't work.
ATEM sees the laptop momentarily, then goes black and the indicator light on the splitter goes out.
Must be some kind of clock syncing the cheap splitters don't do? Or maybe HDCP?
Would love to know if there's an order to connection, or if there's a splitter which works.

Please see our experiance at our church on this issue, and the fix:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=124847

Apple devices see a recorder connected to the HDMI output and then disable the output for copy protection.

Using a CHEAP USB splitter fixed the problem, one that does not tell the Apple there is a recorder connected. See other threads about various suggestions as to what splitter to buy. Many others have gone through this. Its a nasty issue that we probably never would have figured out without the help of others on this forum.

To be clear, you are not using the splitter to split the HDMI signal, you are simply using it to isolate the Mac to get it to send video to the AMP. Yes, this is antithetical to the view one normally has when using Apple devices for videos.

HTH

Thanks, it does help to clear things up a bit - especially your diagrams.

"Using a CHEAP USB splitter fixed the problem, one that does not tell the Apple there is a recorder connected."

^I am curious if you could elaborate on this^

Did you mean a cheap HDMI splitter? I did roll the dice on a cheap $15 splitter but got no love. Is there a specific brand/link to one that ended up working for you?

Our signal path is this:
MacBook Pro HDMI > HDMI Splitter > output 1 > 4-input HDMI switch > HDMI CAT6 Extender to flatscreens (works).
MacBook Pro HDMI > HDMI Splitter > output 2 > ATEM Mini Pro (flashes, then black - doesn't work).

From your last diagram it seems that putting a cheap HDMI Splitter (DA) inline and instead only using one output to your matrix switcher stripped the HDCP and allowed the ATEM downstream to stay on - does that sound about right?

Thanks for your time!

Apple devices see a recorder connected to the HDMI output and then disable the output for copy protection.

No.

If a Mac does not see an HDCP compliant device on the other end it will send black.

A Mac must be connected to an HDCP compliant device to pass signal.

If the Mac begins to broadcast HDCP protected material, the Mac will black the output or you'll get a message like this. Notice that the player is muted but the desktop output is still active on the recorder. Ninja, Ninja V, Video Assist, Pix-E, they all record the Mac output with zero issue unless it's HDCP protected content.

Making assumptions about the workings of the larger production world based on the failings of the AMP would be a mistake.

Good Luck

Apple devices see a recorder connected to the HDMI output and then disable the output for copy protection.

No.

OK

Then why does the same Mac Mini Server (and all the Mac Book Pros we had available) work fine when it is the ONLY device connected to the AMP?

For us, the only time this error occurs is when we mix it with other HDMI sources connected to the AMP.

In other words the Mac's behavior changed depending on the configuration of the AMP even though it can't see the other devices.

I would also add this problem started when we replaced an old DVI projector (in a working system), that was using an ancient DVI / HDMI adapter, with 2 brand new 4K Samsung large screen TVs. As I recall when the Samsungs where not connected, that is the splitter (Mono Price Blackbird quad) was removed from the AMP (we now have an ancient TV using the previous ancient DVI / HDMI adapter connected to the AMP used as a confidence monitor so the Mac was not the only device connected), the Mac worked fine. When the Samsungs were connected the Mac behavior changed. Since the Mac did not change this suggested the AMP changed based on what is connected to it ...

My humble conclusion was the AMP's HDMI pairing behavior changes based on what it sees connected to it across all the ports, and thus the Mac's behavior is a result of this decision by the AMP.

TIA!

PS That all said, the cheap USB splitter does fix the issue and is refered to in other posts here as well. In my original post which I refere to, there are detailed 3rd party discussions about this behavior.

If a Mac does not see an HDCP compliant device on the other end it will send black.

https://cdn.kramerav.com/web/downloads/ ... mini_4.pdf

"If the first device the Mac mini recognizes is a non-HDCP device, then it will think it is connected to a non-compliant display and it won’t encrypt its output. This can be accomplished by placing a VA-1DVIN in-between the computer and the scaler, matrix switcher, or distribution amplifier. The VA-1DVIN is usually used as an EDID Emulation device, but since it is not HDCP compliant it can also be used to emulate a non-HDCP environment allowing the computer to output a non-HDCP signal."

So back to the Mac not "changing" but its decision about what it is connected to changes.

Since the Mac decision changes, and it is the same connection to the AMP, then the AMP must be change its HDMI pairing behavior with the Mac.

What recorder are you plugged into that's causing the issue? I only know of about a dozen of them and they all work, so which one is causing this HDCP issue with Macs? Maybe we can figure this out.

Good Luck

What recorder are you plugged into that's causing the issue?

The ATEM Mini Pro.

My motive to participate in this discussion is the many hours we spent chasing our tails on this and would like to help other churches avoid that. And it was your post, along with the 3rd party docs I found, that finally got us moving in the right direction - Thank you!

But I think there may still be a piece here that we are disagreeing on, and it is this change of behavior by the Mac based on the AMP HDMI connections on the OTHER ports.

If I have time on Sunday I will document the described behavior by posting a video of each case. I think this is one of those times where words just don't do it, but a video will .... Assuming I've not lost my mind and my grey hairs are just tickling false memories.

• No Blackmagic HDMI devices support HDCP. If a source which is outputting an HDCP encrypted stream is connected you will get black with or without audio
• Apple computers will enable HDCP if you connect them to a device which supports HDCP on it's input, or when playing back content that requests the output is protected
• When you connect a splitter, the source device will negotiate with all the connected devices. If any of them support HDCP an Apple computer will turn on HDCP. Any other devices will now lose their signal
• This negotiation happens whenever the devices connected are changed, not just on first connection
• Most (all?) projectors and professional displays these days will support HDCP
• Cheap non-compliant splitters often just report themselves to the source as a single device, not supporting HDCP, meaning the Apple computer doesn't realise it is connected to multiple devices

Mac's are a pain with their desire to turn HDCP on at the slightest provocation. That is why Kramer advise connecting their EDID box (which doesn't support HDCP) in line as it will convince the Mac that it's not connected to an HDCP compliant device.

This is not a problem with your (or any) Atem Mini, it's how Apple have decided to implement the content protection on Macs that is at difference to your expectations. Everything is working as designed. The Atem is not changing it's behaviour, it can only see that it's connected to the Mac, not that there are other devices on the connection. The Mac is changing it's behaviour because the devices it is connected to have changed.

So basically what you are saying is that there is NO WAY to do what I am trying to do....which is to use the splitter out to the Mac, and IN to the PC, and then out to the Atem....that the Mac is going to block everything each time?

I really wanted to do PIP, but I guess the Mac is going to be difficult.

I SHOULD go try plugging everything into the Atem, instead of through the splitter first, but since it was coming up to the holidays, and we THOUGHT we would need all the cameras, etc. to use through the holiday, I didn't want to mess up the entire set-up.

As it turns out, we've not met for a week now, and maybe not for another week, as everyone is coming down with one ailment or another. Some "seem" to have the COVID...some coming up positive with it, but some negative and then diagnosed with bronchitis.

Either way, it's been a cray-cray time here! On reflection, now would actually be the ideal time to play around with stuff, since NO ONE is using the equipment now - nor is there a time crunch to be ready for some "special program," like there was the last few weeks!

Look for the silver lining, Bev. The silver lining.