ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

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Ionutmcristescu

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ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 11:59 am

Hello,
I have bought the new Mini Extreme and I have a problem with inputs from 3 to 8
When I plug in my 2 cameras Canon Eos R and Canon 5D Mark IV in input 1 and 2 all is fine ( using long hdmi cables 20m,15m,10, 2m )but when I plug them in inputs 3-8 nothing appears on blackmagic multi view with cables 20m, 15m, 10m, only works with the 2m hdmi cable.

This is very weird and disappointing. I think it's a design problem.

Some advices?
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 12:04 pm

You need to run SDI for anything that isn’t on the same table as your ATEM.

By spending only half what the switcher costs on converters you can have all 8 inputs usable with reasonable length cables!

Yes it’s a design issue. HDMI is a stupid connection for live production.


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Ionutmcristescu

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 12:27 pm

But why is input 1 and 2 working and the rest not?
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BennoZ

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 12:42 pm

HDMI is not stupid, it carry’s tally’s and fully remote of the BMPCC’s. I think it’s the quality and length of your HDMI cables. 10 meters is too long for HDMI. I run all my Pockets on very long glassfiber HDMI cables from Amazon, works perfect.
Input 1 ‘works’ a little different then the other inputs, there’s also 11ms less audio delay on channel 1 but I don’t know why input 2 doesn’t work.
Last edited by BennoZ on Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 12:42 pm

Because blackmagic.

You might also ask why it has a button for a dual pip but you can only route one of the pip sources from the front panel.

Or why they have used “on” and “off” buttons for functions rather than using toggle buttons.

Or why they spaced the program bus buttons so widely apart that you can’t easily cut on it unless you have massive hands.

I’m sure they would suggest you buy a 1ME Advanced Panel to overcome these issues, but by the time you have brought that panel and the converters for SDI you are spending a lot of cash, to fix inherent design flaws in the mini extreme switchers.


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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 12:51 pm

BennoZ wrote:HDMI is not stupid, it carry’s tally’s and fully remote of the BMPCC’s. I think it’s the quality of your HDMI cables. 10 meters is very long for HDMI. I run all my Pockets on very long glassfiber HDMI cables from Amazon, works perfect.
HDMI IS STUPID.

Just because BMD put it on their cameras doesn’t mean it’s a sensible choice. They could have put SDI I/O on the cameras and switchers. It would have been a better choice as most people have their cameras too far away for regular HDMI cables to work. You can use fibre hdmi, but you need it to have copper lines in too for the return data / tally to work.

It’s a mess of their own making. Which results in lots of disappointment in their users as people have to discover that the hdmi cameras and switchers that BMD make cannot be linked with regular cables and BMD don’t even offer any suggestions of approved cables to use.

They could have used SDI for everything, or given the extreme 4sdi and 4 hdmi, but they didn’t.

No doubt they will release a new model again soon with the features of the extreme in a 1u rack with sdi I/O and we will all buy yet another new switcher off them again!!


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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 2:42 pm

Ok, so if I am understanding this correctly, on input 1 and 2 a longer HDMI run is ok but not on 3 - 8? Reason asking is, I just purchased the Extreme ISO and I currently have the TVS HD. So I was using SDI and HDMI before and using a converter to bring the SDI back to HDMI for the camera. My new setup will have 3 cameras. Camera 1 approx. 40 feet away, Camera 2 approx. 30 feet, and Camera 3 will be roaming utilizing the VAXIS ATOM 500 wireless HDMI transmitter.


So am I going to need to use HDMI Fiber for those long runs? or SDI with converters?
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 4:33 pm

You can choose the option you like the most and if your camera has HDMI or SDI out. If you want to control your Blackmagic camera’s remotely and want tally lights you need (glassfiber) HDMI-cables or 2 SDI cables and a bi-directional 3G converter. With the last option you also have return video. If you don’t need remote control or tallylights 1 SDI cable and a simple converter is enough.
Input 2-8 are the same so I don’t know why input 2 doesn’t work.
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 5:45 pm

BennoZ wrote:You can choose the option you like the most and if your camera has HDMI or SDI out. If you want to control your Blackmagic camera’s remotely and want tally lights you need (glassfiber) HDMI-cables or 2 SDI cables and a bi-directional 3G converter. With the last option you also have return video. If you don’t need remote control or tallylights 1 SDI cable and a simple converter is enough.
Input 2-8 are the same so I don’t know why input 2 doesn’t work.


Is glassfiber the same as fiber optic HDMI cable?
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 5:50 pm

I'm using 65' (ca. 21 meter) HDMI fiber cables with no issues and full remote contol. No problems here.
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Gary Adams

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 7:44 pm

To clear up some of the confusion. On the ATEM Mini Extreme models with 8 inputs, both input 1 and 2 have different circuitry (like the ATEM Mini) to support a direct HDMI output without processing. This is done to minimize latency for monitoring of these inputs when viewed on the HDMI outputs. Note that HDMI Output 1 has the Direct Input 1, and HDMI output 2 has the Direct Input 2 available plus the rest of the sources. While it is obvious some users have different experiences with these inputs, they are by design a different circuit to provide the direct output. That's all the information I have about that. HDMI cable lengths should be kept as short as possible. Some cables will work better than others based on impedance and length. The optical fiber HDMI cables that support CEC (for Pocket Camera Control) are the best for cameras at a distance. I hope this helps. Stay safe.

Regards, Gary
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 1:27 am

Thanks Gary for the explanation - it would be good if the user manual could be updated with this information - there is a little bit about the direct outputs but not an explanation that these bypass the frame sync / scaler.

It would be really useful if there was a way to have the atem tell you what resolution and frame rate all of your sources are. At the moment it is not possible to tell if the framerate conversion and scalers are active or not, allowing the possibility of errors where multiple cameras have different settings resulting in different latency through the switcher and thus lipsync errors.

it would also be really great if BMD could make a list of approved cable types and distances you can expect form various solutions. A bit like the SSD / SD card lists. This would help avoid the disappointment that many experience when they find they can't use a cheap 25m copper HDMI cable.
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 7:19 am

Has anyone had success using HDMI 4K repeaters for long cable runs?


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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 5:20 pm

I think every repeater will cost you one frame delay and you don’t want that. What’s wrong with optical HDMI?
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 3:49 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:Because blackmagic.

You might also ask why it has a button for a dual pip but you can only route one of the pip sources from the front panel.

Or why they have used “on” and “off” buttons for functions rather than using toggle buttons.

Or why they spaced the program bus buttons so widely apart that you can’t easily cut on it unless you have massive hands.

I’m sure they would suggest you buy a 1ME Advanced Panel to overcome these issues, but by the time you have brought that panel and the converters for SDI you are spending a lot of cash, to fix inherent design flaws in the mini extreme switchers.

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostMon Apr 12, 2021 1:45 am

BennoZ wrote:...
I run all my Pockets on very long glassfiber HDMI cables from Amazon, works perfect ...

@BennoZ
Could you share the links for your cables?
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostWed Apr 21, 2021 7:02 pm

Question: Why would the 75' HDMI cables I've been using with my original ATEM Mini work just fine with that device (some of them even going through a cheapo Kinovo splitter first), but they won't work with the ATEM Mini Extreme ISO?

Also, my problem does not appear to be related to which input my devices are plugged into. Cameras that the Extreme sees appear on any of the 8 inputs. Cameras it doesn't see don't appear on any input (including 1 & 2).

Finally, I'm pretty sure my Extreme was a defective device, as it had all kinds of other problems. I'm just hoping to confirm that a properly functioning Extreme will work with my existing HDMI cables.

thanks
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostWed Apr 21, 2021 7:29 pm

75 inch should work fine, I guess you can go abut 400 inch with HDMI. when you need longer you need HDMI glasfiber or SDI with converters.
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostWed Apr 21, 2021 9:11 pm

I'm using 75 FOOT hdmi cables, not 75 inch. :)
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 4:21 am

As I told you that’s much too long.
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 8:56 am

To all the comments ranting about the atem series. Black magic made a non-profesional series with the atem mini. The non-professional usually has camera's with hdmi out. Black Magic has built the Atem Mini exactly like most people want it. It is an extreme cheap peace of equipment so stop nagging about it or get professional equipment.
HDMI is a consumer connection. NOT a professional connection. HDMI is NOT super reliable due to its protocol and due to the typical fragile connector. HDMI is not meant for longer cable. It is a crime that cables longer then 10 meters are even sold. So stop wanting the impossible from HDMI. It is cheap because it is consumer priced quality. You cannot sit on the front row for balcony prices.
I only do budget projects and I am very happy with the Atem mini series. I use the cheap Black Magic hdmi-sdi and sdi-hdmi mini converters for any camera that needs to be further away then 10 meters max. In reality I only use hdmi port 1 for a hdmi connection as that port is a little more forgiving when it comes to weakened signal. If you can afford the Atem Mini Extreme, you can certainly afford some sdi converters and some good sdi cable. If you come complain about sdi and you bought some cheap ebay sdi cable then I will find you and I will ... you :) SDI cable does not have to be of extreme quality when you use consumer camera's as these compress the signal anyway. For real RAW trasnport over sdi be sure to buy high performance sdi cable. But then again, I do not expect people needing to use real high quality RAW signal to come here complain about the Atem Mini series.

hdmisdi.jpg
hdmisdi.jpg (241.23 KiB) Viewed 636 times
I bought the Atem Mini Pro to:
Change from editing to live switching and decrease my post time a lot.
Increase my easy camera choosing and broadcast quality.
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BennoZ

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 10:39 am

No problems at all with 100 metres glassfiber HDMI.
But your opinion is clear.
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 3:35 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:Because blackmagic.

You might also ask why it has a button for a dual pip but you can only route one of the pip sources from the front panel.

Or why they have used “on” and “off” buttons for functions rather than using toggle buttons.

Or why they spaced the program bus buttons so widely apart that you can’t easily cut on it unless you have massive hands.

I’m sure they would suggest you buy a 1ME Advanced Panel to overcome these issues, but by the time you have brought that panel and the converters for SDI you are spending a lot of cash, to fix inherent design flaws in the mini extreme switchers.


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They don't have a toggle on/off so that you can record macro's and play them back repeatedly without breaking your workflow. Right now you can have a single macro that takes the camera you want to start, set's your aux, and starts your live stream. You could press that a million times and never stop your stream. Toggle buttons for critical features are just a bad idea in general.

And you shouldn't be using one hand to live switch. You'll never be able to react fast enough when you need to. The spacing on the buttons is fine
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostWed May 05, 2021 1:37 pm

A toggle switch doesn’t break macros. Macros record the states changed, not the method used to change them. If you record a macro via an external system which has toggle switches it records and replays fine.

Thanks for telling me how I should cut cameras. I guess 20 years of experience isn’t good enough to know how I’d like my buttons spaced?


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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostWed May 05, 2021 3:37 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:A toggle switch doesn’t break macros. Macros record the states changed, not the method used to change them. If you record a macro via an external system which has toggle switches it records and replays fine.

Thanks for telling me how I should cut cameras. I guess 20 years of experience isn’t good enough to know how I’d like my buttons spaced?


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apparently not
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostWed May 05, 2021 4:07 pm

Then there is the issue where you can’t rest your fingers on the buttons as they are so sensitive.

Look at every other vision mixer on the market, buttons are spaced so they naturally rest under each of your fingers. But not the ATEM Mini...

The extreme has over 100 buttons which I’ll never push. They could have put a preview bus, user keys and a much bigger macro section in the space.

It is what it is, but it could have been so much better.


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Sander Vreuls

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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostWed May 05, 2021 5:02 pm

It's interesting that the "Chinese ATEM Mini", the HDS7105P has a program preview rail and now even a "T-bar" (More like a fader but still..).. The ATEM Mini and Mini Extreme could really learn from that..
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostFri May 07, 2021 2:12 pm

Is there reliable info that could enlighten us about the nature of the difference in design of inputs 3-8 that would cause them to drop frames or be less reliable than 1-2, all other things being equal? Using three P4ks all connected via HDMI fiber (same manufacturer, same length on all three) to inputs 1-3, input 3 seems to consistently have some weird motion blur and occasional dropped frames from what I'm seeing on a recent session. 1-2 have been flawless.
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostSat May 08, 2021 3:02 am

BMD has said many times, Inputs 1 and 2 on the extreme ISO are different decoders to handle being able to pass through the video signed directly.. The previous devices (Mini pro, mini pro Iso ) only had input 1 different. Inputs 2-4 of the smaller devices are like inputs 3_8 On the Extremes.
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Re: ATEM Mini Extreme - Inputs problem

PostSat May 08, 2021 8:06 am

Jan Valk wrote:I use the cheap Black Magic hdmi-sdi and sdi-hdmi mini converters for any camera that needs to be further away then 10 meters max


Hi Jan

Have you been able to do 1080p50 or above with these converters?
It seems that if you boost the HDMI signal afterwards it will work, but the outputs from the converters are “too low/fragile” to work by itself

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