BMD ursa mini 4,6K G2 multicam setup W/o atem

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mix effects

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BMD ursa mini 4,6K G2 multicam setup W/o atem

PostSat Apr 03, 2021 2:09 pm

Hi,

I wonder how the BMD Ursa mini can work in a Multicam setup without using properly an ATEM.

I mean, can I use Ursa and for exemple an atem television studio HD for only managing the color correction. And simultaneously use the Sub D 25 "intercom/tally" to manage both coms and tally?

Someone have already try the sub d connector to send tally and/or coms?

an other question is about the SMPTE link and the power needed by the camera. I usually use sheds between my CCUs and the cameras (for the noobies SHED stands for SMPTE Hybrid Elimination Device. It is a small adapter that allows you to use ordinary single-mode optical fiber for camera links in venue/facility infrastructure)

so on the camera side you got a device which powers the camera... I got sheds which are compatible with Sony broadcast EFP cameras do you know if it will be compatible with BMD Ursa? what is the voltage and amperage waiting by the Ursa mini to be powered on?

thanks!
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Howard Roll

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Re: BMD ursa mini 4,6K G2 multicam setup W/o atem

PostSat Apr 03, 2021 4:34 pm

Are the sheds, fiber backs, and base stations necessary? If the desire is getting singlemode fiber IO that goal can be achieved inexpensively using the 12G sdi to fiber boxes.

For tally, one should be able to send a GPO trigger to the Atem that will tally the selected cam over SDI, however I've heard rumor that the GPI side of the BM GPIO box is questionable.

Integrating coms is going to be a stinker how, or where ever they're inserted. The potential fiber module savings may provide motivation to insert coms at the switcher instead of the cams. That other stuff exists to support itself, with SMPTE eliminated it's vestigial. Then again, if layers of coms/returns are required the fiber backs may provide a simpler integration.

Good Luck
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mix effects

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Re: BMD ursa mini 4,6K G2 multicam setup W/o atem

PostSat Apr 03, 2021 7:36 pm

Hi Howard,

Thanks for your answer! I realize that I was not cristal clear in my questions...

I plan to buy BMD Ursa mini pro 4,6K G2, camera fiber converter and studio fiber converter...And probably an atem television studio HD.

I got a constellation 8K so with this one no problem to remote control the cams send tally lights and insert the coms over de SDI control protocol.

But I still need to use broadcast shed (which I already have) between the cams and the CCU in the control room/OB. there is a scheme attached to be clear on what I want to do. Before plugging the lemo SMPTE 311M into the camera fiber converter I want to be sure that there will not be electric overload or something like that which could damaged the cam and the converter.

Another problem is that I have to get this setup fully operational without using the constellation (or any other BMD switcher) to perform the vision mixing.

That's why I'm asking if the sub D connector on the back panel of the studio fiber converter is fully operational and if I can send properly coms and tally through this one (I'm not talking of the GPIO converter).
I know that an Atem is mandatory to perform camera shading. Assuming that I purchase an atem television studio HD, the vision mixing will be done through a third party mixer (Grass valley for exemple), do you think it will work?

many thanks!
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codedeltajames

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Re: BMD ursa mini 4,6K G2 multicam setup W/o atem

PostSat Apr 03, 2021 10:12 pm

I know there has been discussions on here in the past about only using the fibre connection and not the copper data / power, but I can't find them at the moment. IIRC the power devices for other manufacturers don't work with the URSA kit, however you can power them locally using the camera's +12V input (which will then power the fibre converter).

URSA Broadcast Manual - P162 wrote:If you need to position your camera at a distance of more than 2.1 km from the broadcast truck, and your camera and converter are not receiving enough power over the long cable run, you can power the camera and converter locally by having the 4 pin XLR from the camera’s power supply plugged into the +12V input on your URSA Broadcast or URSA Mini. The power will be sent through the molex connector to the Camera Fiber Converter.


URSA Broadcast Manual - P172 wrote:Camera Power Connection
Power is primarily supplied to the camera unit and your camera from the studio converter via a SMPTE hybrid fiber cable. This also powers all accessories that may be attached to the camera, for example Blackmagic URSA Studio Viewfinder.
However, you can also power the Blackmagic Camera Fiber Converter via the camera if your camera has its 12V XLR connector plugged into a power supply. This is not normally required, but is an option if you have your camera positioned further than 2 kilometers away from the studio unit where power may not be as reliable over the SMPTE fiber cable.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: BMD ursa mini 4,6K G2 multicam setup W/o atem

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 10:36 am

The Sony Shed or GV for that matter will NOT work!! BMD has it's own fault check system to check the line. And if something doesn't add up as they expect it wont start up at all!! But connecting a Sony or GV Shed could easily blow up your Camera fiber converter. SO DONT!!


So looking at your diagram this could be done in a different way to be honest with you!!

Instead of a SHED create a small 19" rack and add the Fiber base stations for BMD cameras in it.

Then have a few BMD Miniconverter 12G fiber to go to your MTP. Or even nicer pick a Fiber muxer system to run on a 2 core fiber.

Tally can be inserted by the BMD SDI Shield. ( I have a topic here with the code that will get you PGM and PRV tally insertion from GPIO )

The BMD intercom system is nothing more then embedded audio on channels 15-16 for Director intercom and channels 13-14 for Engineering intercom.
So you could run an audio embedder to push intercom from your matrix into your PGM signal from your other vision mixer.. Or run the PGM from your other vision mixer trough the TVS HD and use it's microphone input to insert director intercom into the sdi signal.

Then this will be carried trough the SDI signal trough fiber to the ""shed"" where it gets distributed into your SMPTE fiber system.


it's about how we do it with our 4K OBV.. We have fiber muxers that concat multiple 12G-sdi + network + other signals onto a pair of fiber. And have 2 "stage" racks which have 1 Muxer + a 4 channel SMPTE basestation + PoE network switch and a few other bits of gear..

These boxes are placed 1 on stage and 1 on FOH.. And from both we run a 2 core fiber up to 5km to the OBV. So it's much more then only a shed. but it gives so much more possibilities as we are able to connect multiple intercom packs on both racks. Have multiple SDI in + out at each rack. Even send MV outputs back into the fibers to "monitor" signals at the racks.. And have router panels on both to route different signals into outputs of the fiber muxers.. So we basically run 12 cams in full 4K on 2 fiber cables :mrgreen: :mrgreen: ( And yes we often have a spare fiber next to each one just in case.. :P )

But quite frankly i would look into different SMPTE fiber system at all if you want to go this far..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Constelation 8K, Hyperdeck Studio 12G, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control
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Howard Roll

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Re: BMD ursa mini 4,6K G2 multicam setup W/o atem

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 8:38 pm

The sheds are more in the way than anything. However, the money saved on a plug and play solution is spent on time. It also seems important that the cameras are S35 which means few other five figure choices. Is Ikegami still producing their Aleev35 camera? I never understood how that one didn't catch, maybe too far ahead of the game.

Without a BM specific shed what are the options? Lose the trunk, use a different camera, perhaps a bespoke solution?

The critical component in a bespoke solution would be the camera back, everything else is infrastructure. It wouldn't be hard to rewire the sheds for 12V or more realistically 18V. Take the 304 connector out of the unused shed and build that into the camera back with the fiber IO. The physical component of the camera back itself is the lynch pin. It needs to house the Hybrid connector, the fiber IO module, the connections for SDI and power. 3D printing isn't sufficient for the task and low batch prototyping a poor man's Silverback may not be in the job description for most.

Good Luck
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mix effects

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Re: BMD ursa mini 4,6K G2 multicam setup W/o atem

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 9:16 am

Hi thank you to both of you for the answers.

There is something I didn't catch...

Ok the URSA and more specifically the fibre converters are checking the connection when startup but this is the same with a legacy sony camera like the HDC 4300 for exemple... ok the CCU remain in "cable open" but it concerns only the power supply all the other functions are still working...I know I'm talking about a camera which is almost 10 times more expensive...

My Sheds are sending power to the cam and I think the voltage is not so far from the one needed by the ursa... so according to you even if I modify the shed to deliver the right power specs it will not work?

More of that assuming i find a solution to power the cam with the 4 pin XLR do you think i'll be able to simply use the fiber converters to send and receive control commands (return, tally, coms and shading?) ?

Last thing if you are sure it is not possible to use sheds do you think I can use the idea of Xtreemtec. Placing the studio fibre on the field so the camera fiber converter and the studio fiber are liked directly via SMPTE311M and the using optical converter to send to the control room through a MPO? My concern is about how the studio fiber converter will resist to the different weather conditions... of cours I will not put it under rain but humidity and other factors will be there...

Thanks
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Howard Roll

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Re: BMD ursa mini 4,6K G2 multicam setup W/o atem

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 6:47 pm

mix effects wrote:Last thing if you are sure it is not possible to use sheds do you think I can use the idea of Xtreemtec. Placing the studio fibre on the field so the camera fiber converter and the studio fiber are liked directly via SMPTE311M and the using optical converter to send to the control room through a MPO? My concern is about how the studio fiber converter will resist to the different weather conditions... of cours I will not put it under rain but humidity and other factors will be there...


If I remember my Dante, the designers of devices with cables coming out of the front and back, or left and right, were sentenced to navigate a dimly lit, snake filled labyrinth, while simultaneously trying to avoid being poked in thee eye...for ever.

Yeah, it should work, the front firing SMPTEs make it awkward, where one could simply use a rack lid if they popped out the back.

I made this in Photoshop, only took 2 minutes :D it has a transformer inside that takes the ~60V from the shed and breaks it out to 14.4V on an XLR4. Unless there is a way to power the camera from hybrid fiber, the conversion to that format invokes magnitudes of expense and yields little benefit. With something like this the original solution, as drawn, is mostly plug and play. Everything stays in place coms, tally, trunks, AC, etc., as one isn't re-integrating the entire pipeline.

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Good Luck

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