Very disappointing Dolby Vision

DV titles on Netflix on new Mac Air keep disappointing.
Colors are crap, grade is moody and dark. Darker scenes are unwatchable and without any shadow details (even in pure darkness).
This is crazy disappointing. Netflix and DV meant to be about quality and deliver proper experience for every device. This is clearly not working. Probably those are auto trims, which always tend to be too dark and lifeless. Some titles are unwatchable. I have to force SDR version in battery settings as DV is so poor.
Anyone experienced it?

DV was likely mastered in 1000 nit monitor. Since your Mac Air is unable to do 1000 nit, Netflix likely created a transcode profile with tone mapping to 500 nits. Add the fact you can’t really calibrate the screen, I’m not surprised by your experience.

Does it even have local dimming?

Screen is not the problem. Problem is DV trim done by auto mode, not by colorist.
Same as with auto SDR trim done by DV algorithm. It's basically always to dark/lifeless.

We have never delivered DV with trim for Netflix. It is 1000 nits PQ and SDR as a separate standalone file. As far as I understand it, Netflix creates several profiles from the master file based on the most popular displays (Samsung TV, iPhone, Sony TV, Samsung Galaxy, etc.).

The tone-mapping is not made by the device itself?

The tone-mapping is not made by the device itself?

Based on my understanding of how Netflix streams, it can be. If your display has a Netflix profile, Netflix would have generated an already tone mapped stream for you. If it is not, Netflix streams a profile that is the closest to your display profile which might still be tone mapped by your display.

The tone-mapping is not made by the device itself?

Yes, it can be done by DV algorithms or DV+ colorist's adjustments saved as metadata (but no one does it I assume, hence those trims are not very good?).
Issue is also in color itself - skin tones are bad, overall colours are shifted. When I force screen to present itself as SDR then SDR version is miles better than HDR lower nits trim. I assume something is not working very well in the whole chain. On my gf's MacBook Pro with HDR screen DV masters look good and correct.

AFAIK, there's no 500-nits DV profile. So your result doesn't come directly from a colorist trim pass.

In the same time HDR on YouTube does look fine, so looks like problem is just with Netflix.
Possibly there is no tone mapping and content is presented same as on 1000 nits screen, which makes it dark and dull.
Solution is to disable HDR capabilities of the screen (in battery settings) and let it show just SDR masters on Netflix. Those look miles better than broken HDR. Odd and bad for Netflix.

DV titles on Netflix on new Mac Air keep disappointing.

How was the MacBook Air calibrated?

If you're just accepting the "out of the box" settings, it's going to be flawed. Nothing, I mean nothing, comes set up correctly for HDR right out of the box. Especially a MacBook Air.

Note also that's not a Blackmagic problem. It's an Apple problem.

It has nothing to do with BM. Never said it does.
Calibration? What for? To watch a movie?
I don’t need calibration to tell it looks garbage. SDR is fine. HDR is crap.
There is clearly some issue and it’s not even Apple, but Netflix ( or combination of both).
YouTube HDR looks fine, but Netflix DV titles on these Macs are simply ‘broken’. Basically everything - colors, saturation and ‘gamma’ response. It looks like very poor HDR conversion to SDR. I don’t think it even tries to actually present eg. 600nits trim. It’s more like very bad SDR conversion, so no surprise that original SDR version looks miles better.
Then HDR on YT is actually fine and does offer ‘more’ than SDR version.

Compared to MacBook Pro and found a reason.
I had permanent Night Shift on to protect my eyes. I set it and forgotten. Eyes got use to it. It seems to affect HDR more than SDR, so it was breaking HDR more.
Both screens match very well as for home devices.

It has nothing to do with BM. Never said it does.

Then why post the question on a Blackmagic Design forum? It has nothing to do with anything Blackmagic does.

If you're looking for an answer, my answer is "don't expect great HDR performance on a cheap MacBook Air screen." I think they can be calibrated to a point, and you might at least get more predictable performance going that route, but that would be a question for the Calman people or the Light illusion people. Blackmagic is not in that business.

Compared to MacBook Pro and found a reason.
I had permanent Night Shift on to protect my eyes. I set it and forgotten. Eyes got use to it. It seems to affect HDR more than SDR, so it was breaking HDR more. Both screens match very well as for home devices.

The Night Shift setting is a crime against god. Don't do that.

I use Mac a lot, so this is "safety" settings. Funny that eyes quickly get use to red tint and you treat this new white as "standard".
It's just a forum and it's relevant in some way to things discussed here. It should be in off topic section.

I use Mac a lot, so this is "safety" settings. Funny that eyes quickly get use to red tint and you treat this new white as "standard". It's just a forum and it's relevant in some way to things discussed here. It should be in off topic section.

I think you're mistaken. This is a Blackmagic Design forum, made to discuss the hardware and software made by that company. If you're having a problem with an Apple screen, take it up with Apple:

Apple Computer
Attn.: Mr. Tim Cook
1 Infinite Loop
Cupertino, CA 95014
(408) 996-1010
email: tcook@apple.com

BTW, Apple just announced their own HDR standard (separate from Dolby Vision and the HDR standards we now have:

This will be shown at WWDC in about 10 days.

Let's delete all things unrelated to BM products. 50%+ of this forum will be gone. Feel free to ask BM do it.

Apple's EDR is few years old technology and it's in no mean any competition etc. to HDR known formats. It's a pipeline to support those formats, which is very opposite to your claim.

I don’t know why folks expect the entire world of consumers to calibrate their displays, be it computer monitors, laptops, big screen, anything, just to watch any and all movies, regardless if it is HDR, SDR, or foobarDR. The movies should just play and display nicely. People don’t care about DR of the display… at least my neighbors, parents, wife, or friends who are not colorist or care about how the post work it takes to make it. Just call it as creative decision for bad or good colors, contrast, and brightness. For what I have delivered, everyone is happy with SDR and no one have asked if they need a 1000 nits monitor for their consumers to watch their movies on. DV, Apple’s version of it, etc are just techie stuff; the regular people don’t care or noticed any difference. MI Final Reckoning, if it has a bit of blue cast, will still be watched and almost a 100% who watched it last weekend won’t even know. If it is, just call it a creative look decision and be done with it. No one to blame.

Exactly. Netflix delivery is simply good enough for 99.9% of people who watch it. HDR on good screen is "better", but decent SDR is also fine.
My issue was with DV titles on Netflix was all my fault I have permanent Night shift (which I even forgotten about as eyes got use to 'new' white very quickly) on to protect my eyes, so it's all with red tint. It seems to affect DV titles way stronger than SDR and I thought something was wrong. It was wrong, but due to my fault, not Netflix or Apple
Some DV titles, eg. Witcher look very nice, specially on my gf's Macbook Pro with its bright screen. Mac Air screen is not as bright, but still delivers very good results as home device. Nothing more is really needed.
What is even more interesting that those 2 screens match well on factory settings. "Visual" match is better than between calibrated old Dolby PRM and Sony x300 This is due to the fact that those 2 use very different tech, so even calibrated they don't overall look "visually" the same (even if colors are about identical). For Apple screens you may adjust white point and then it's absolutely great watching device

I don’t know why folks expect the entire world of consumers to calibrate their displays, be it computer monitors, laptops, big screen, anything, just to watch any and all movies, regardless if it is HDR, SDR, or foobarDR. The movies should just play and display nicely. People don’t care about DR of the display… at least my neighbors, parents, wife, or friends who are not colorist or care about how the post work it takes to make it. Just call it as creative decision for bad or good colors, contrast, and brightness. For what I have delivered, everyone is happy with SDR and no one have asked if they need a 1000 nits monitor for their consumers to watch their movies on. DV, Apple’s version of it, etc are just techie stuff; the regular people don’t care or noticed any difference. MI Final Reckoning, if it has a bit of blue cast, will still be watched and almost a 100% who watched it last weekend won’t even know. If it is, just call it a creative look decision and be done with it. No one to blame.

The problem is really the bells-and-whistles features that they cram and activate out of the box. At least there is a growing support for Filmmaker Mode that disables a lot of the crap. The feature is only in TVs. Desktop computers and smart devices do not have it.

Samsung S95F has red tint which doesn’t go away even after calibration. Something is wrong there. LG G5 still delivers solid performance and good choice for semi pro work. Consumer TVs went long way and now can be calibrated and have decent performance ( new Panasonic has 9 calibration slots).

I don’t know why folks expect the entire world of consumers to calibrate their displays, be it computer monitors, laptops, big screen, anything, just to watch any and all movies, regardless if it is HDR, SDR, or foobarDR. The movies should just play and display nicely.

On a professional colorist discussion group on a specific type of color-correction software... yeah, we'd expect everybody to get their displays calibrated.

This is not a "regular people" discussion group. It's an industry-wide problem that all the consumer TV and computer display manufacturers ignore industry standards for Rec709 and Rec2100 calibration. This has been a problem going back at least 45 years: I can recall having screaming matches with producers over the phone in the 1980s because the tape we made in the color room looks like crap on their office TV set. It's a them problem, not an us problem.

All we can do is try to educate people and inform them of the need for calibration. I have a little 1-minute demonstration I do with our semi-calibrated iPad, and I show them the factory settings vs. the Rec709 settings and hold it next to the big calibrated monitor in the color room. Even non-technical clients immediately understand that nobody has any control over the displays out in the real world. All we can do is make the show look good on a calibrated display and then hope for the best.

The problem with uncalibrated displays is they may cover up severe color/matching problems in some situations, and they might also take a minor problem and exaggerate it.

I would say the same thing with a sound mix: if you listen to it on speakers with jacked-up treble and no low end, you'll get a completely different experience than you would listening to studio monitor loudspeakers with balanced levels. I'd say the sound mix problem is at least as bad as the color monitoring problem.

On a professional colorist discussion group on a specific type of color-correction software... yeah, we'd expect everybody to get their displays calibrated.

This is not a "regular people" discussion group. It's an industry-wide problem that all the
consumer TV and computer display manufacturers ignore industry standards …

Marc, I know this is a professional colorist forum and that it’s not a regular people discussion group. I am not debating the need to calibrate our display so they are professionally accurate. I am in agreement in that.

My point is “regular people” which makes 99% of the viewership around the world are the ones who watches what we (you and I) deliver and most of them will not be able to discern what is color accurate when they are watching on a consumer device and they have no sense of what is a calibrated display.

Also, when I am talking about consumers, I am not referring to the clients who can watch their movies in the confines of our calibrated reference screens and monitors. I am talking about people like Joe and Sally down the street or Mohammad in Bangladesh who are watching their movies end result on whatever consumer displays they have. To me, those are the people I want to make my films for.

So maybe a thought is color grade the Sh$* out of the picture to whatever calibrated reference monitor we used then forget about how it looks on all the display in the world coz unless they are a professional colorist, I don’t thing they give a care as long as it’s entertaining and color their fancy if you get what I mean. Or just don’t worry anymore about color accuracy and just grade it with a cheap uncalibrated monitor and call it the day. That might just work too if it looks good enough to your clients. I’m not vouching for the latter but it is always an opinion.

I guess what I’m saying is if the world doesn’t have the display to view it color accurately, why bother with all this hoopla other than for the purposes of tech talking - which is what professional colorist love to do… including me.

I guess what I’m saying is if the world doesn’t have the display to view it color accurately, why bother with all this hoopla other than for the purposes of tech talking - which is what professional colorist love to do… including me.

My response would be a few things:

1) one of the many issues in post is if you start ignoring the subtle problems -- like color matching or calibrating monitors -- eventually the problems tend to snowball and get worse and worse until they become severe and catastrophic.

2) everything matters. There is a point where professionalism is mandatory for delivering TV shows and features at a certain level (or higher). Of course, if this is your kid's birthday party going on YouTube, then it doesn't really matter as long as the picture is clear and sharp and everything is reasonable. But for high-level shows where you're getting paid for your professional expertise, then I think you have to do all that you can to make sure it looks the best it possibly can, given the limits of time and budget you have to work with.

3) there is also the fear (and probability) of having the show rejected by a streaming service or distributor. When that happens due to technical quality issues, then there's the threat of lawsuits, contractual problems, delivery problems, and everything that comes with that.

Colorists are -- to me, anyway -- the last line of defense when the project is finished and delivered. It's our responsibility to keep our eyes open and make sure the technical quality never falls below a certain level. To me, it's a matter of pride (and the whole point of our job) to make every shot match, to help the filmmakers tell the story, and to preserve the hard work of the cinematographer. If we drop the ball and have a lack of care for what we do, then all of that is for nothing.

Hey Marc, I agree with all your points. All I am saying is that the world doesn’t see or care what efforts are put in as long as it looks good on their display and looks good is subjective. Unless there is such a noticeable color shift, the “regular viewer” doesn’t notice or care as long as the visual looks good to them and on their display (calibrated or otherwise).

Let me give you an example. When I am done grading in my studio, the colors on my calibrated reference monitor looks 99.9% perfect to my viewing and my client’s eyes. At home, on my consumer 85” Samsung display, it doesn’t look exactly as what was seen on my studio reference display. I noticed it but showing it to my wife, my non-industry friends, and even my critical cousin Rey - none of them had a clue about the color deviation at all. They all loved the look and the film as a whole. The same when it was released as a DCP on a theatrical screening. Everyone loved the film and there were comments and questions, but none said anything of the ery slight deviation in colors that I noticed comparing what I saw in my calibrated projector and what was shown at the theater. That’s really all I am saying.

Everyone, I apologize that I have sidetracked the OP’s comment on Dolby Vision, but I just want to respond to Marc and I think there’s a bit of deception with any screens, including DV.
We can now get back on DV.

Let me give you an example. When I am done grading in my studio, the colors on my calibrated reference monitor looks 99.9% perfect to my viewing and my client’s eyes. At home, on my consumer 85” Samsung display, it doesn’t look exactly as what was seen on my studio reference display.

Have your Samsung display calibrated, and you can avoid this problem. All five of the displays in my house are calibrated, and if I can do it, anybody can do it. (In truth, most of those displays are former monitors used in my studio -- I never throw anything away.)

Let me give you an example. When I am done grading in my studio, the colors on my calibrated reference monitor looks 99.9% perfect to my viewing and my client’s eyes. At home, on my consumer 85” Samsung display, it doesn’t look exactly as what was seen on my studio reference display.

Have your Samsung display calibrated, and you can avoid this problem. All five of the displays in my house are calibrated, and if I can do it, anybody can do it. (In truth, most of those displays are former monitors used in my studio -- I never throw anything away.)

Marc, with due respect, I think you’re missing my point. It’s not a problem to me. The consumer doesn’t care even if I, as a filmmaker, do care. The point of this example is that not everyone is like you who buys a TV from Costco or Walmart and have it calibrated, knows how to calibrate it, or even know what “Calibrate” means. As my example points out, the consumer Samsung in my house is how most of the world have been using their TV since it was invented. Yes, I can calibrate it. Really, do I want too? Probably not because everyone in my household will revolt when their super vivid look watching Monday Night Football or the cooking channel in YT will look soft and cinematic. Another point I am making is we adjust to what the masses wants, not what we think that masses should expect. That’s my “learned” philosophy of marketing otherwise my producer clients will no longer be interested and so there goes another closedown shop. It’s just business I guess.

Ellery, long ago I was told by some wise colorists that:

1) You can't fix Gramma's green TV. (A corollary is you can't even predict it.)

2) No one else, via *any* delivery process whether network broadcast, streaming, theatrical release, or web, will ever see exactly what you saw grading the stuff.

So why worry about the calibration? Simple.

3) IF you work on a carefully calibrated and profiled proper reference monitor, then your output, on any display device, will be *in relative terms* similar to all other professionally produced media on that device.

4) IF you try to outguess the viewing device, your output will be better on a few screens, but worse on all others.

And as in the end, every viewer is the only person who can control their screen, that is up to the end user.

Not us.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

Ellery, long ago I was told by some wise colorists that:

1) You can't fix Gramma's green TV. (A corollary is you can't even predict it.)

2) No one else, via *any* delivery process whether network broadcast, streaming, theatrical release, or web, will ever see exactly what you saw grading the stuff.

So why worry about the calibration? Simple.

3) IF you work on a carefully calibrated and profiled proper reference monitor, then your output, on any display device, will be *in relative terms* similar to all other professionally produced media on that device.

4) IF you try to outguess the viewing device, your output will be better on a few screens, but worse on all others.

And as in the end, every viewer is the only person who can control their screen, that is up to the end user.

Not us.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

You’re absolutely right. I am for calibrating reference monitors and all my “work” monitors are calibrated every 3 months at the very least. I don’t calibrate the TV sets we have at home… don’t ask me why… we just don’t. None of my family members and closest of friends do what I do, and likes to view how they like their screens showing it. So as you rightfully said, and I quote, “ in the end, every viewer is the only person who can control their screen, that is up to the end user.”

BTW, there are consumer displays with Filmmakers Mode. It’s an optional feature not the default feature. If that helps bring it closer to the right color/gamma, even without the owner having to know about calibration, that will be a good thing. But I know of many who have displays with this feature… I doubt any one of them even knew if it’s there or what to do or expect from it. So when every viewer is the only person who can control their screen, whatever color/setting/brightness/contrast that fancy them is going to be the good picture that they will enjoy.

Yea, it the Wild Wild West out "there". Like others I've been hoping things would improve.

Not so much, it seems.

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Film maker mode in most current TVs is easily good enough for home viewing. It's a big improvement compared to the past. Fact that better consumer TVs can be properly calibrated is another huge step forward. It all gone to the point where a some work is done on consumer calibrated TVs. In the past this wasn't the case or very rare case.
What should be done is actually better system to compensate for different viewing conditions at home, so relatively intended look is kept. This is lacking and area where people complain the most (.eg. lost shadow details, due to brighter than studio viewing conditions).

Ellery, long ago I was told by some wise colorists that:

1) You can't fix Gramma's green TV. (A corollary is you can't even predict it.)

2) No one else, via *any* delivery process whether network broadcast, streaming, theatrical release, or web, will ever see exactly what you saw grading the stuff.

So why worry about the calibration? Simple.

3) IF you work on a carefully calibrated and profiled proper reference monitor, then your output, on any display device, will be *in relative terms* similar to all other professionally produced media on that device.

4) IF you try to outguess the viewing device, your output will be better on a few screens, but worse on all others.

And as in the end, every viewer is the only person who can control their screen, that is up to the end user.

Not us.

Very wise advice. I thank Neil for sharing it.

It's hard to let go of the realization that there are things in the world you just can't control. A few times, I've run into screaming matches with clients who are upset that our project doesn't look good on their bad monitors. In a few cases (I think I'm running about 70/30), I've been able to get them to bring me one of their displays and do a rudimentary calibration on it and get it within spitting distance of an actual Rec709/2.4 100-nit display. Once they do that... they calm down pretty quickly.

But Gramma's TV is still gonna be green, and that's life.

You’re absolutely right. I am for calibrating reference monitors and all my “work” monitors are calibrated every 3 months at the very least. I don’t calibrate the TV sets we have at home… don’t ask me why… we just don’t. None of my family members and closest of friends do what I do, and likes to view how they like their screens showing it.

Then it's time to change. Calibrate your home sets or stop complaining. You can't control what goes on at your friends & relatives' homes, but you can control what you see under your own roof.

Filmmaker Mode is just the first step. There's a lot more than that, but it helps. At least that turns off all the motion compensation, auto-white, auto-black, and certain auto-color processes (like "Night Mode").

You’re absolutely right. I am for calibrating reference monitors and all my “work” monitors are calibrated every 3 months at the very least. I don’t calibrate the TV sets we have at home… don’t ask me why… we just don’t. None of my family members and closest of friends do what I do, and likes to view how they like their screens showing it.

Then it's time to change. Calibrate your home sets or stop complaining. You can't control what goes on at your friends & relatives' homes, but you can control what you see under your own roof.

Filmmaker Mode is just the first step. There's a lot more than that, but it helps. At least that turns off all the motion compensation, auto-white, auto-black, and certain auto-color processes (like "Night Mode").

Gosh Marc, I’m not complaining. I don’t know why you’re still not getting the point - regular people buy their television and plug it in. They don’t bother to do what you do. I was using me as an example of a regular TV owner. I don’t bother to mess around with the TVs at home and very one is happy, I am not complaining, my friends don’t complain about my TV experience, etc… etc… I am sharing a thought that is more realistic than something you’re trying to set as an expectation that will never really happen, and it has not happened since TV first came out. Anyway, I think my point has come across negatively to you and but hopefully understood by others here. So I’m just going to leave it at that. As a matter of fact, this kind of went on a tangent since your first response so let’s move on and not high jack the OP original post.

Gosh Marc, I’m not complaining. I don’t know why you’re still not getting the point - regular people buy their television and plug it in. They don’t bother to do what you do.

What you say is coming across as a complaint, and an annoying one. There is a point where you're kind of like this guy:

What you say is coming across as a complaint, and an annoying one. There is a point where you're kind of like this guy:

Ah, yes — the classic “Old Man Yells at Cloud” reference. A bit tired, but points for effort. I’ll take it as a compliment, though — it means I care enough to speak up instead of sitting quietly like a houseplant with WiFi. If raising a valid point sounds like complaining, maybe that says more about your tolerance for ideas that require a little thought. But sure, let’s reduce anything inconvenient to a meme — it’s much easier than actually engaging. I’ll keep yelling at clouds; they tend to rain on people pretending it’s always sunny.

If raising a valid point sounds like complaining, maybe that says more about your tolerance for ideas that require a little thought.

No, you're constantly complaining about a) things that have nothing to do with DaVinci Resolve, b) things that are far beyond our control, and c) things that have nothing to do with Dolby Vision.

I often tell people: "without calibration, you have no idea what you're looking at." I think I've been saying this at least the last 10 years. I wish more neophyte colorists and more clients understood this.

If raising a valid point sounds like complaining, maybe that says more about your tolerance for ideas that require a little thought.

No, you're constantly complaining about a) things that have nothing to do with DaVinci Resolve, b) things that are far beyond our control, and c) things that have nothing to do with Dolby Vision.

I often tell people: "without calibration, you have no idea what you're looking at." I think I've been saying this at least the last 10 years. I wish more neophyte colorists and more clients understood this.

I’m really sorry for you man. 10 years, wow! That would definitely cost some serious personality issues. Probably it’s time to retire.

I’m really sorry for you man. 10 years, wow! That would definitely cost some serious personality issues. Probably it’s time to retire.

I actually underestimated: we've been telling this to clients for 40 years: you need to have a calibrated display on your end or you can't judge our work.

I am now what I call "semi-retired," but I'm still teaching and I'm about to start my 11th feature restoration project of the year. So my clients seem to think I'm still working.

We have never delivered DV with trim for Netflix. It is 1000 nits PQ and SDR as a separate standalone file. As far as I understand it, Netflix creates several profiles from the master file based on the most popular displays (Samsung TV, iPhone, Sony TV, Samsung Galaxy, etc.).

How is this Dolbyvision then? Without any trim information, isn't that just HDR10? Do you mean it has only auto-trims? Or is there something else about DV that sets it apart from HDR10?