BMCC vs RED ONE

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PetePolyakov

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BMCC vs RED ONE

PostFri Nov 02, 2012 7:59 pm

It would be interesting to compare
2.5K RAW BMCC $3000 vs RED ONE 4.5K RAW (14 Megapixels MYSTERIUM-X™) $4000
if anybody has both cameras it would be nice to see the difference
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Costa Louvieris

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostFri Nov 02, 2012 8:45 pm

PetePolyakov wrote:It would be interesting to compare
2.5K RAW BMCC $3000 vs RED ONE 4.5K RAW (14 Megapixels MYSTERIUM-X™) $4000
if anybody has both cameras it would be nice to see the difference


The price of battle tested RED ONE is tempting... especially with the connections it has. I really could do with another camera with genlock in my setup!

So I too would be interested in serine a comparison.
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bhook

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostFri Nov 02, 2012 8:53 pm

It's much too large and heavy to fit my portability requirements...actually, the BMC pushes the point for me and my carry on case. But I certainly understand the allure of the R1.
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Costa Louvieris

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostFri Nov 02, 2012 9:19 pm

mhood wrote:It's much too large and heavy to fit my portability requirements...actually, the BMC pushes the point for me and my carry on case. But I certainly understand the allure of the R1.


I'm really not worried about weight. It's the REDRAW workflow that outs me off....
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Dave Dominguez

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostFri Nov 02, 2012 9:28 pm

Costa wrote:
mhood wrote:It's much too large and heavy to fit my portability requirements...actually, the BMC pushes the point for me and my carry on case. But I certainly understand the allure of the R1.


I'm really not worried about weight. It's the REDRAW workflow that outs me off....


Have you ever shot a R1? the sticks alone are gonna run you a couple grand. It's sooooo heavy and cumbersome. BUT it does shoot some AMAZING images.
https://vimeo.com/daviddominguez
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Costa Louvieris

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostFri Nov 02, 2012 9:53 pm

Dave Dominguez wrote:
Costa wrote:
mhood wrote:It's much too large and heavy to fit my portability requirements...actually, the BMC pushes the point for me and my carry on case. But I certainly understand the allure of the R1.


I'm really not worried about weight. It's the REDRAW workflow that outs me off....


Have you ever shot a R1? the sticks alone are gonna run you a couple grand. It's sooooo heavy and cumbersome. BUT it does shoot some AMAZING images.


I know the added costs.. but it's here, it's real and it has the connections I require. This is about the imager quality comparing the two. I still have my heart set on the BMC.
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Dave Dominguez

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostFri Nov 02, 2012 10:00 pm

I know the added costs.. but it's here, it's real and it has the connections I require. This is about the imager quality comparing the two. I still have my heart set on the BMC.[/quote]

As do i my friend. Hopefully we will have it in our hands sooner than later...hopefully.
https://vimeo.com/daviddominguez
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Jason R. Johnston

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostFri Nov 02, 2012 10:15 pm

Red One is an $8000 camera after you buy the other required bits you need to make it work: EVF, cards, batteries, etc. Sure, it's like having a high-speed 2K camera and a film-speed 4K camera rolled into one, but you're also paying for two cameras.

The BMCC pretty much works out of the box with a certified SSD card. And if you want an external battery option and all that, you might be looking at a total of $500 of accessories. And it's basically a 12bit 2.5K RAW camera and a 10bit ProRess 4:2:2 camera all rolled into one. It also comes with Resolve and Ultrascope apps (~$1600 worth) for free.

Red? You better buy RedRocket to make it work right.

Also, Red One is a dying tech. Support will fizzle out soon. Meantime, any upgrades come with a price.

BMCC is new tech supported by a strong, stable company that provides solid, tested product and regular free firmware upgrades.

Red One requires expensive, proprietary customization options and only comes in PL and Nikon mount.

BMCC not only has EF mount model to compete directly against 5DmkIII, but a M43 model perfect for a fancy, expensive camera mount of your choice, including PL.

So, really:
RED One: ~$8000
BMCC: ~$3600

Oh, and then there's camera support. RED's heavy and needs heavy precision support, something that can hold 30-60lbs will run around $7000 for a Vinten, Cartoni or a low-end heavy Sachtler kit. BMCC works on a smaller fluid head system made for video cameras. Manfrotto has a few decent bits that run about $200 each.

Red One: ~$15000
BMCC: ~$4000

Oh, you still need RedRocket ($4750). And some more cards. Let's say you went cheap and decided against REDMag and went with the CF version. No, that's a crap move. The best option (and most secure) is REDMAG. You can get a 4 pack for $1840! Those are just the 48 giggers so you'll neeed several of them what with all the REDRAW you'll be shooting. For the BMCC? We should get another SSD to be on the safe side: both 120GB. So, you have two of the smaller ones so as not to put all your eggs in one nest. So, $100 for the extra one.

Red One: ~$16840
BMCC: ~$4100

Let's say you get a nice little MacPro laptop to run certain apps on, scopes, transfer footage, etc. That 13-inch: 2.9GHz sounds about right. $1500.

Red One: ~$18340
BMCC: ~$5600

Oh, wait, you still need to transfer over the RED footage from the SSD's. Gonna need a RED Station for REDMAG. $250. For the BMCC you can just get a regular SSD transfer cable for about $30.

Red One: ~$18590
BMCC: ~$5630

We haven't even looked at other bits like cages, extra monitors for AC's, matteboxes, etc. And this is all assuming your current editing work station is powerful enough to handle RAW material, let alone 4K REDRAW.

So, about $18600-ish for a second-hand RED One?
Or, about $5600-ish for a decked out brand new BMCC?
Jason R. Johnston
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostFri Nov 02, 2012 10:24 pm

I guess its only people that dont already own the equipment you listed ( good sticks/head, computer, etc..) that are buying bmcc.. lol. yeh

Cant rent the r3d bits anymore either then eh?... right.

Really man, I understand your dislike for them, but the redone mx at that price is a STEAL in this industry
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FloridaDP

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostFri Nov 02, 2012 11:00 pm

I think this kind of comparison is bound to continue as BMC gets shipped. And I couldn't be happier.

I have shot with RedOne and I honestly don't care for it- but I am also coming from the perspective of what I shoot in my market. There are Reds here and they work. But the money and pressure related to that investment to compete with the well established shooters where I am is, in my opinion, not good business. And that brings me to my real point here; So what if one camera is superior over another? I think a RedOne with some Optimos on it would be 'better' than the BMC with the same lenses.
But- Do I need 4K in my market?
No.
And RedOne owners, up until the BMC, didn't have competition. Until now.

What I can offer Ad agencies here with the BMC is a manageable 2.5K image at a fraction of the price tag a RedOne would rent for without the agency having to sacrifice image quality or incur extra costs with regards to shooting on DSLR that requires more lighting and grip to maintain a good image (i.e. exposure latitude and highlight issues).

Anyway, I got so tired of the Blackmagic User forum with all this pining over 'What's better??? Mark5, BMC, Sony 700' 'What lens should I buy' 'What battery option should I get'. ITS A BUSINESS- WHAT CAN YOU AFFORD? WHAT DO YOUR CLIENTS NEED? I could have a garage full of Alexas and master primes but if all my clients want content for youtube and their websites I'm pretty stupid shooting on an $70K camera when I could shoot that content on an iPhone and actually make money.

Hope this helps some of you out.
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paul schefz

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostFri Nov 02, 2012 11:43 pm

Jason R. Johnston wrote:Red One is an $8000 camera after you buy the other required bits you need to make it work: EVF, cards, batteries, etc. Sure, it's like having a high-speed 2K camera and a film-speed 4K camera rolled into one, but you're also paying for two cameras.

The BMCC pretty much works out of the box with a certified SSD card. And if you want an external battery option and all that, you might be looking at a total of $500 of accessories. And it's basically a 12bit 2.5K RAW camera and a 10bit ProRess 4:2:2 camera all rolled into one. It also comes with Resolve and Ultrascope apps (~$1600 worth) for free.

Red? You better buy RedRocket to make it work right.

Also, Red One is a dying tech. Support will fizzle out soon. Meantime, any upgrades come with a price.

BMCC is new tech supported by a strong, stable company that provides solid, tested product and regular free firmware upgrades.

Red One requires expensive, proprietary customization options and only comes in PL and Nikon mount.

BMCC not only has EF mount model to compete directly against 5DmkIII, but a M43 model perfect for a fancy, expensive camera mount of your choice, including PL.

So, really:
RED One: ~$8000
BMCC: ~$3600

Oh, and then there's camera support. RED's heavy and needs heavy precision support, something that can hold 30-60lbs will run around $7000 for a Vinten, Cartoni or a low-end heavy Sachtler kit. BMCC works on a smaller fluid head system made for video cameras. Manfrotto has a few decent bits that run about $200 each.

Red One: ~$15000
BMCC: ~$4000

Oh, you still need RedRocket ($4750). And some more cards. Let's say you went cheap and decided against REDMag and went with the CF version. No, that's a crap move. The best option (and most secure) is REDMAG. You can get a 4 pack for $1840! Those are just the 48 giggers so you'll neeed several of them what with all the REDRAW you'll be shooting. For the BMCC? We should get another SSD to be on the safe side: both 120GB. So, you have two of the smaller ones so as not to put all your eggs in one nest. So, $100 for the extra one.

Red One: ~$16840
BMCC: ~$4100

Let's say you get a nice little MacPro laptop to run certain apps on, scopes, transfer footage, etc. That 13-inch: 2.9GHz sounds about right. $1500.

Red One: ~$18340
BMCC: ~$5600

Oh, wait, you still need to transfer over the RED footage from the SSD's. Gonna need a RED Station for REDMAG. $250. For the BMCC you can just get a regular SSD transfer cable for about $30.

Red One: ~$18590
BMCC: ~$5630

We haven't even looked at other bits like cages, extra monitors for AC's, matteboxes, etc. And this is all assuming your current editing work station is powerful enough to handle RAW material, let alone 4K REDRAW.

So, about $18600-ish for a second-hand RED One?
Or, about $5600-ish for a decked out brand new BMCC?


red one...several features, 1000s of music videos and 10000s of commercials
BMCC....still some problems with the glass...please wait...

but seriously....you do not need a red rocket to work with the files....at all....
yes the red one will be more expensive with accessories but also is 4.5K and simply is in a different class....it is also a lot bigger and heavier...
scarlet is a lot smaller and probably comparable in size to the BMCC....but still in a different class in terms of capabilities.....and both are working and shipping....
i believe a comparable kit with each camera might be:
BMCC: 5000$
R1: 8-9000$
scarlet: 12-15000$

don't forget that A LOT of people are dumping their scarlets right now to finance their epics.....
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSat Nov 03, 2012 3:30 am

Jason you were close at the start but then you went off course at the middle and basically off kilter at the end with your pricing structure.
I've been working with a RED MX fully kitted and I mean full for over 3 years now and I honestly dont think you need all that.
However, we didnt know that until we bought into it.
So in the end we figured that if we would have to start all over again, we could have shaved more than half of what we stocked up with.

One thing for all to consider with the RED MX. There are a ton of used gear out there going for almost nothing. Well it was until last night. REDUSER was a feeding frenzy between the RED ONE users and the new buy-ins (can we even say that considering its the first RED cam?).

Oh and btw, 2K@120 fps is amazing with REDCODE.
Never mind 4.5K@24 ;)

If you really are serious about using the RED MX for shooting, head over to REDUSER and meet up with the old schoolers and they will tell you that you can be up and running with minimal gear.
maybe not as cheap as BMCC but...read on :)

I honestly don't think these two cameras should be pitted against each other.
Its a little unfair to the BMCC for one thing.
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSat Nov 03, 2012 3:31 am

pss wrote:don't forget that A LOT of people are dumping their scarlets right now to finance their epics.....


Another week and you maybe right.

I havent received my BT Scarlet yet and I dont plan on dumping it.

Its my first personal RED and would like to compliment it with a BMCC and an EPIC sometime next year.
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paul schefz

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSat Nov 03, 2012 4:56 am

Eric Santiago wrote:
pss wrote:don't forget that A LOT of people are dumping their scarlets right now to finance their epics.....


Another week and you maybe right.

I havent received my BT Scarlet yet and I dont plan on dumping it.

Its my first personal RED and would like to compliment it with a BMCC and an EPIC sometime next year.


got my BT scarlet as well:) dumping was the wrong word....."selling very lightly used scarlets" in order to finance epics....
still quite a bit more then BMCC...but shipping, proven and really in a different league....

i remember people arguing here and at BMCuser (wishful thinking!) about red1 for 6 and 7000$ and now the scarlet is 8000....there are a LOT more options now then when the BMCC was supposed to ship the first time...
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSat Nov 03, 2012 10:01 am

Eric Santiago wrote:I honestly don't think these two cameras should be pitted against each other.
Its a little unfair to the BMCC for one thing.


I don't think it's unfair at all - because they are still in a different league, not only price wise. And yeah, Jason went a little "off kilter" but still his point is pretty valid.

Yeah I thought about RED One MX too for a few minutes, I've shot quite often with it. But it's built like a tank, weights a ton. I have really good Sachtler sticks + head but still, while they are an overkill for DSLR work (even when the DSLR is outfitted with cage, rods, mattebox etc) they work perfectly with an Epic and other "smaller" "real" video cams. But I've used a Red One MX a few months ago on it on a low budget shoot and it was really flimsy. So I would have to buy a new tripod. And that is not where it ends.

And while everybody is complaining about the built in BMCC battery... for all of you who actually shot on the RED One you know that this beast literally eats batteries! So you need a bunch of really really big batteries and a charger which can charge more than one at once etc etc.

Add to that the ridiculously priced media cost (RED "SSDs"). Of course there is still a valid place for RED Ones with this nice price drop especially, but to me it's a little "not grounded in any sort of reality" to compare it directly with a BMC.

Especially when it comes to all the smaller/smallest jobs (over here it's more and more about these, micro crew and all) .. if something is then shot on location and you have to walk around a lot.. sorry, done it once (whole day on a Fair running around with a RED One + support + case full of lenses) and ain't doing it again.
Sometimes I think it's mostly people who like to "fantasize" about owning a RED...

And don't get me started on the post workflow. There is no direct Prores or similar recording.. without a RED Rocket it's still pretty much a pain in the ass, albeit much better/smoother than years ago. Granted you can cut the material quite well nowadays in FCPX or Vegas/Premiere... but when it comes to rendering or full quality processing... say goodbye to tight deadlines and hello to long render and conversion times. Over here many post houses nowadays prefer Alexa Raw.

So albeit going a bit far from my experience of 4 years shooting with RED One and RED Epic I think Jasons point is pretty much valid.

Perhaps there are people out there for whom it makes sense to own a RED. I came to the conclusion for me (and several other shooters I know here) that it doesn't make much sense to shell out that much more money. Especially with the new price drop the rental houses have to adjust their rates on REDs so it will be a nobrainer to rent one for a paid shoot where it makes sense.
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Andrew Deme

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSat Nov 03, 2012 10:22 am

I just finished watching 'Get the Gringo' with Mel Gibson which I believe was shot on a Red One and while the movie itself was good and the slow moving shots very nice....anytime there was faster motion it looked quite strange and had an off putting kind of blurry motion.

Am no expert and have no experience but if it's an example of the Red One I wouldn't get too excited.
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSat Nov 03, 2012 3:29 pm

Andrew Deme wrote:I just finished watching 'Get the Gringo' with Mel Gibson which I believe was shot on a Red One and while the movie itself was good and the slow moving shots very nice....anytime there was faster motion it looked quite strange and had an off putting kind of blurry motion.

Am no expert and have no experience but if it's an example of the Red One I wouldn't get too excited.


A lot of movies was shot with the RED MX.
Maybe blame it in post?
I didnt work on it and def didnt see the movie so I can really say.

Found this list to be amusing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fi ... in_digital
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSat Nov 03, 2012 3:34 pm

Soeren I get you and understand.
We are all in this for the same thing but we all have different views/quirks/attitudes/passion for tech.
I just think that when you pit one camera to another it should at least have some realistic specwise matching.
When BMD rolled it out at NAB, all I heard from them was DSLR killer.
No one mentioned FS100 or C300 or whatever we would like.
The RED MX gets thrown just because of the price?
Well heck Ill throw my own in there, I have an Sony PDW F355 XDCAM I would like to match up with the BMCC :)
Would that be fair since I am sure I can find for 4K and less.

Edit: oh and please, lets not add rental to this list. that word seems to really mix people up. last I checked I put in an order for a BMCC so I can shoot my own personal views. I highly doubt most that purchased this was going to start renting it out at the start.
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Gavin Benjamin

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSat Nov 03, 2012 3:51 pm

when it comes down to it. its all about if you need to work now or later. Most professionals need to work now with stable proven cameras and work flow. red raw is not hard to work with. cinema dng is harder but new tech too so it may have some trick up its sleeve to come. so its really on if your working and you need to shot today or maybe sometime next year.
G.
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Margus Voll

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSat Nov 03, 2012 4:01 pm

in some sense bmc and red are similar in workflow in ideal world.

when you want to have nice balanced look in your red stuff for offline you have to balance it
and then maybe make tiny proxys with burn in.

pretty match the same with dng. i see no difference there.

so we cant say it is match easy with red.
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paul schefz

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSat Nov 03, 2012 4:11 pm

Soeren Mueller wrote:
Eric Santiago wrote:I honestly don't think these two cameras should be pitted against each other.
Its a little unfair to the BMCC for one thing.



And don't get me started on the post workflow. There is no direct Prores or similar recording.. without a RED Rocket it's still pretty much a pain in the ass, albeit much better/smoother than years ago. Granted you can cut the material quite well nowadays in FCPX or Vegas/Premiere... but when it comes to rendering or full quality processing... say goodbye to tight deadlines and hello to long render and conversion times. Over here many post houses nowadays prefer Alexa Raw.



the only reason to get the BMCC is raw....and that is more or less the same pita as red....there are better options out there for a much faster workflow....

don't forget: BMCC raw files, in the long run, will eat up more storage then even red raw files....it's not just the ssds you need for shooting, you also need longtime storage and a big project will eat TBs like crazy....

let's not forget that the BMCC was announced 6 months ago and looked amazing for the price....then....that is why i and many others ordered right away....but a lot has changed in the last 6 months (epic dropped 50%, the new sonys, incl the FF and the new F5 and F55,...) and right now you still can't get the BMCC....
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSat Nov 03, 2012 10:09 pm

pss wrote:the only reason to get the BMCC is raw....and that is more or less the same pita as red....there are better options out there for a much faster workflow....


agreed.. to some extent, imho red raw is still a little bit more pita ;)

pss wrote:don't forget: BMCC raw files, in the long run, will eat up more storage then even red raw files....it's not just the ssds you need for shooting, you also need longtime storage and a big project will eat TBs like crazy....


for me personally that's not true. as i already use cineform for a long time i found the "convert dng immediately to cineform raw and store that" workflow working really fine. storage wise it's on par with 2-3k R3D files... and it performs much better!
and a little bit of me still hopes for direct cineform raw recording as a future firmware update (david newman of cineform said it could be possible if the bmcc processor has enough ram)

pss wrote:let's not forget that the BMCC was announced 6 months ago and looked amazing for the price....then....that is why i and many others ordered right away....but a lot has changed in the last 6 months (epic dropped 50%, the new sonys, incl the FF and the new F5 and F55,...) and right now you still can't get the BMCC....


well i listed my personal cons for red one vs bmcc, and it's the same for many "one man show" folks over here that are doing similar jobs. of course the epic is a whole different beast again, but also a much different price point.
i think simply 3k USD is sort of a thin red line when it comes to "own it for small jobs and personal stuff, rent sony/red/alexa for higher budget stuff" vs "only rent a cam when i need one for a paid job, dslr/hvx/fs100 etc still works for personal stuff time being".
for all the little corporate/docu/event jobs you get over here in europe it just does not make sense at all to buy your own epic or even red one + necessary equipment upgrades, the math just doesn't add up! well only maybe if you've got rich parents and don't have to do any realistic calculations ;)
(or are living for free)

for me it's really simple... business as before as long as the bmcc (or another similar cam for that price point) is not available: i use what is available to me now.. thats my fully flexed 5D with all the usual yadda yadda accessories for micro low budget and personal stuff, and for paid gigs depending on the job and budget i rent sony, red or alexa. it's just a tool! and i'm happy to (hopefully) soon have a better tool for micro budget and personal stuff than "misusing" my 5D for video... simple as that - i really don't get all the drama :geek:
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Cuboirs

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 12:21 am

All I have to say is F5 ........
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Joe Gonzalez

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 4:00 am

Is the RedOne sensor a S35mm sensor and then is cropped to 16mm size in 2K?
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 4:12 am

Joe_g wrote:Is the RedOne sensor a S35mm sensor and then is cropped to 16mm size in 2K?


Good question. The only time we use 2K with our RED MX is when we set it to 120fps.

Ive been wondering about that since the Scarlet does the same thing when dropped from 5K to lower.
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Joe Gonzalez

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 5:05 am

Eric Santiago wrote:
Joe_g wrote:Is the RedOne sensor a S35mm sensor and then is cropped to 16mm size in 2K?


Good question. The only time we use 2K with our RED MX is when we set it to 120fps.

Ive been wondering about that since the Scarlet does the same thing when dropped from 5K to lower.


Man i didn't know it did 120 fps! Wow thats a real deal breaker. Ive been waiting patiently for my BMD order but, 120fps, 4.5k, Super35mm sensor, high ISO and PL mount already for an extra 1000$ I won't be surprised if BMD next camera will be the BlackMagicCinemaPro with all the SAME specs as the REDONE . Eric, since your a RED user, whats your opinion on all this.
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Dave Dominguez

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 5:52 am

Eric Santiago wrote:
Joe_g wrote:Is the RedOne sensor a S35mm sensor and then is cropped to 16mm size in 2K?


Good question. The only time we use 2K with our RED MX is when we set it to 120fps.

Ive been wondering about that since the Scarlet does the same thing when dropped from 5K to lower.


yes.
https://vimeo.com/daviddominguez
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Nick Bedford

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 7:48 am

I thought this was quite hilarious.

http://t.co/4r9itNTg
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 10:48 am

Yes the sensor is cropped on the RED whenever you drop resolution.
While 120fps is nice in theory.. when you have used it you know that the quality drops a lot compared to full res! So its more reserved for specialty cases..

Don't get why the RED One is "only 1000 more".. you want to record on something right? Heck even see anything.. so at least an SDI monitor.. and compare RED SSD vs BMC SSD prices.. little different hm?!

For 4k USD all you get is a piece of heavy metal that will just sit there and do.. well.. nothing ;)
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 1:12 pm

Joe_g wrote:Man i didn't know it did 120 fps! Wow thats a real deal breaker. Ive been waiting patiently for my BMD order but, 120fps, 4.5k, Super35mm sensor, high ISO and PL mount already for an extra 1000$ I won't be surprised if BMD next camera will be the BlackMagicCinemaPro with all the SAME specs as the REDONE . Eric, since your a RED user, whats your opinion on all this.


Im a REDUSER through work but fell in love with the tech over the years as VFX/DIT/Colorist/Editor.
When the BMCC was announced, I ordered two for m future personal projects.
The wait didnt kill me but when the Battle Tested Scarlets were announced, it took me three days to mull it over then decided to buy in.
Im deep in it now and its not a cheap adventure.

Ive been meaning to write a post at both BMCC sites about all this.
Buying into the RED ONE MX should never be about replacing the wants and need of the BMCC.
It should not replace the void left by the long dragged out release of it.
You buy a camera to get you moving forward.
The RED MX start-up costs is double what a BMCC will get you.
I would love for everyone to get into RED gear but Im being honest that you really need to give your head a shake before making kind of move.
I could have cancelled my BT Scarlet and ordered the RED MX as well since my company has all the gear required to get me going but thats not how I want to get into this business.
I want to stand on my two feet with my own purchased gear.
The bonus about the RED MX option is that there are tons of original owners willing to sell their parts for the RED MX cheap.
You just got to approach them.

I am hoping I will be able to buy a BMCC ariund spring.
So Im pulling for BMD to get out and going :)
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 1:14 pm

Soeren Mueller wrote:Yes the sensor is cropped on the RED whenever you drop resolution.
While 120fps is nice in theory.. when you have used it you know that the quality drops a lot compared to full res! So its more reserved for specialty cases..

Don't get why the RED One is "only 1000 more".. you want to record on something right? Heck even see anything.. so at least an SDI monitor.. and compare RED SSD vs BMC SSD prices.. little different hm?!

For 4k USD all you get is a piece of heavy metal that will just sit there and do.. well.. nothing ;)


120@2K is nothing to sneeze at.
Compare that to other cameras and we will talk :)

You are so dead right about the extras.
I experienced it over the years with our RED MX at work and now Im feeling the burn with my own Scarlet purchase.
You have to start looking at eBay and REDUSER for sale section to get some kind of deal.

If you're in Europe, I wish you well.
That freakin VAT of yours is killer :P
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Margus Voll

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 1:16 pm

+ import duty and + taxes
Margus Voll, C.S.I.

http://www.iconstudios.eu
margus@iconstudios.eu
Insta / Twitter @margusvoll

Resolve 15 W10 (i9-7940x 14c OC @4.4 Ghz, 2x Titan Pascal, 128 gb ram)
Resolve 12.5.4 OSX
BMC 2,5 K
Pocket camera
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Mikolaj Kepinski

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 1:18 pm

Nick Bedford wrote:I thought this was quite hilarious.

http://t.co/4r9itNTg


fun stuff :)
Compendium Productions

Camera:
BMCC EF Warsaw/Lodz

Cinematographer
Mikolaj Kepinski
cell: Poland +48 691-724-210
Norway +47 400-45-046

http://www.compendium-productions.com
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Tom Sefton

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 1:33 pm

I've got to say that the longer the wait and the cheaper the Red One MX is, I'm very tempted to jump ship.

Can someone with a good idea of costs let me know how much extra we are realistically going to spend on extras if we get the Red instead?
Tom Sefton
Owner
Pollen Studio
www.pollenstudio.co.uk
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 2:02 pm

Nick Bedford wrote:I thought this was quite hilarious.

http://t.co/4r9itNTg


alexa vs r3d1 mx:



alexa vs f3 vs 7d:



(mystery camera ;) hint.. it shoots to a "crappy" 8 BIT codec :shock: :P


Somebody somewhere said it best: "Application first..tech next"
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 2:10 pm

Nick Bedford wrote:I thought this was quite hilarious.

http://t.co/4r9itNTg


That was funny :)

Noticed the RED BRICK powering the ARRI too ;)
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FloridaDP

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 2:15 pm

pss wrote:[quote="
red one...several features, 1000s of music videos and 10000s of commercials
BMCC....still some problems with the glass...please wait...

but seriously....you do not need a red rocket to work with the files....at all....
yes the red one will be more expensive with accessories but also is 4.5K and simply is in a different class....it is also a lot bigger and heavier...
scarlet is a lot smaller and probably comparable in size to the BMCC....but still in a different class in terms of capabilities.....and both are working and shipping....
i believe a comparable kit with each camera might be:
BMCC: 5000$
R1: 8-9000$
scarlet: 12-15000$

don't forget that A LOT of people are dumping their scarlets right now to finance their epics.....



I totally agree with you- thousands of commercials, music videos and more and more features are shot on RED.
Is this "d--- measuring" banter just about which technology is better? Or are the people in this 'debate' shooting that 'A level' content mentioned above?
If so- go for the Epic. What an awesome camera.
I still maintain the idea that the camera, or gear, you shoot with is really about your clients needs.
Yesterday, for example. I was out shooting an advertising package for The Villages here in central florida. I work with this producer a lot and we always shoot DSLR. Most of my jobs are- producers ask for it. It's cheap and it looks nice. My 60D package is long paid for and makes money every time I shoot with it plus my rate. If my camera was a Scarlet or a Red One I would be constantly rent DSLR's or pass on jobs. Now the BMC? I was aching for it yesterday. Could have made money plus 13 stops shooting outside would have been real nice.
The other shooters and lighting guys I work get a kick out of the forums like this I read. They don't know how the hell anyone makes money based on the discussions like this I tell them about but It makes for good set conversation.
Last edited by Christine Peterson on Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Profanity
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 2:21 pm

Pollenstudio wrote:I've got to say that the longer the wait and the cheaper the Red One MX is, I'm very tempted to jump ship.

Can someone with a good idea of costs let me know how much extra we are realistically going to spend on extras if we get the Red instead?


A lot :)

RED MX 4000
REDMAG 48GB SSD 495
RED Power est 1500 and up (we use Anton Bauer and misc cables)
PL Lenses I honestly dont know (we have the complete set from RED, can you say KACHING!!)
30lbs plus rated Tripod system 2400 (I suggest a SECCED Reach 7)

Should I keep going?

Scary huh :)
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Bill Rich

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 pm

I think the refurb R1 is a great price.. but as mentioned by many.. getting the camera up and running will be costly! Yes there is a less expensive 2nd hand market option which helps. Something that hasn't been mentioned is lenses.. Doesn't the R1's on sale have a PL mount? so you'll have to purchase a new mount from RED ($$$$) to fit your current lenses.. or PL to XX adapter.. or shell out huge dollars for PL lenses. So for me.. getting a RED isn't an option.. I'm sticking it out for my BMCC unless something competitive is released before I get it (digital bolex or ???)
Bill Rich
PhotoJournalist/Editor/Producer
Los Angeles, California
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 2:31 pm

FloridaDP wrote:The other shooters and lighting guys I work get a kick out of the forums like this I read. They don't know how the hell anyone makes money based on the discussions like this I tell them about but It makes for good set conversation.


dito.. same here :)

it's really strange.. at least over here in europe you won't have much luck finding any shooter/dp that owns a camera himself over the 3k USD price point, everyone is renting the more expensive stuff.
but from reading forums you could get the idea that at least in the us it's different and many many people own their own red ones, scarlets, alexas etc... but i guess in reality it ain't like that, right? =)

and yeah @ eric.. thanks... VAT over here sucks :( hurts with all the computer stuff too
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 2:36 pm

Pollenstudio wrote:Can someone with a good idea of costs let me know how much extra we are realistically going to spend on extras if we get the Red instead?


If you are serious, the used market will be your friend very shortly.
Shop around, do your homework and you will be just fine. Head over to reduser and poke around.

If the camera is an investment that will pay you dividends dont hesitate to buy it, go to work and make your $ !
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Bill Rich

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 2:41 pm

LOL! that is a good point! Most of the folks that I know here in the U.S. that work in the biz (with a few exceptions) do rent (or borrow) cameras for paid gigs. Many do have their own DSLR's or prosumer HD cams for their own projects (like me) Which is why the BMCC is so attractive! A camera you can use on a gig that you own! There are the folks that do purchase a RED scarlet/epic to use on their gigs.. but rent it out when it's not in use so the camera is still making money for them.
Bill Rich
PhotoJournalist/Editor/Producer
Los Angeles, California
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Jesuan Soriano

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 2:46 pm

Bill Rich wrote:I think the refurb R1 is a great price.. but as mentioned by many.. getting the camera up and running will be costly! Yes there is a less expensive 2nd hand market option which helps. Something that hasn't been mentioned is lenses.. Doesn't the R1's on sale have a PL mount? so you'll have to purchase a new mount from RED ($$$$) to fit your current lenses.. or PL to XX adapter.. or shell out huge dollars for PL lenses. So for me.. getting a RED isn't an option.. I'm sticking it out for my BMCC unless something competitive is released before I get it (digital bolex or ???)



+1

but digital bolex.....looks quite strange...form factor and image quality... :)

jesus
Jesus Soriano
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Gavin Benjamin

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 2:54 pm

while people argue snout wether to buy the R1 its selling out so if someone is really interested they need to know asap, they have already sold out of the cf slot and only have ssd versions left who knows if they will even get more in and when so. this could become a unicorn for some...
G.
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 3:00 pm

Since they are not making anymore, I doubt they will have any left for sale after this week.
There isnt a trade option either so once its out there, its gone.
You will find soon enough, used Scarlets.
Since I got mine for 3K less, I plan on keeping this baby till they pry it from my dead hands ;)
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Gavin Benjamin

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 3:04 pm

Eric Santiago wrote:Since they are not making anymore, I doubt they will have any left for sale after this week.
There isnt a trade option either so once its out there, its gone.
You will find soon enough, used Scarlets.
Since I got mine for 3K less, I plan on keeping this baby till they pry it from my dead hands ;)


you got are scarlet for 3k less good deal, was this the first batch or that recent deal they had for $7k
G.
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Bill Rich

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 3:04 pm

At this point the Digital Bolex is not available either.. the retro form factor doesn't bother me as much as it is raw recording only format. it records 2k cinemaDNG to CF cards.. no internal battery.. and 4-pin XLR power connection with the teeny tiny LCD that forces you to have to use an external monitor... I am not a fan of the crank-handle thing on the bolex, it looks like a toy and I imagine the novelty will wear off after using it for more than a day. With that said.. We haven't seen it in the wild and what it can do other than the few small clips on their website.. I'd like to see what it really can do and what the image looks like before rendering final judgement.. just look at the BMCC.. it is an unconventional camera design.. but after folks saw the images it is capable of.. unconventional becomes genius. :)
I'm still pulling for the BMCC!!!
Bill Rich
PhotoJournalist/Editor/Producer
Los Angeles, California
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 3:17 pm

Gbenjamin wrote:you got are scarlet for 3k less good deal, was this the first batch or that recent deal they had for $7k


Well it was originally $4800 less but with recent Scarlet pricing it went down to $3050.

Yes I jumped on the BT Scarlet the ones used in the Wachowski Brothers film.

Must have been another Bullet Time type shot since it was used for no more than 1 minute.

It took my 3 days to get some balls to order :P

Im starting from scratch with gear so Im close to 16K now including the Scarlet.

Fun times :)
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 3:32 pm

Bill Rich wrote:LOL! that is a good point! Most of the folks that I know here in the U.S. that work in the biz (with a few exceptions) do rent (or borrow) cameras for paid gigs. Many do have their own DSLR's or prosumer HD cams for their own projects (like me) Which is why the BMCC is so attractive! A camera you can use on a gig that you own! There are the folks that do purchase a RED scarlet/epic to use on their gigs.. but rent it out when it's not in use so the camera is still making money for them.


Yeah that's what I was talking about.. I'm in exactly the same boat and so are a bunch of other people over here. And that's why I (and others) have no other option than waiting until the BMCC (or something similar for the same price) arrives. It's just a "goodie" to have (using your own cam for a paid gig), but not a necessity.
But that's why I'm wondering about all the people in the forums who I'd thought would be in the same boat but suddenly are thinking about getting a RED because of a few months delay... dunno if they all suddenly inherited money or something.. :twisted:

And yeah the Digital Bolex could be another option.. I don't mind the form factor as on recent blog postings they have made it clear that you can remove the handle from the bottom and that it will have all the usual "professional" mounting options... the only thing that worries me is that from the clips they released the picture seems a little "video-ey" :( .. dunno if it's just the post they did on it.. especially the highlight clipping seemed quite harsh and rather ugly. But no rolling shutter ;) guess we have to wait for the first "real" RAW footage to be released to make a judgement...
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Eric Santiago

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Re: BMCC vs RED ONE

PostSun Nov 04, 2012 4:05 pm

Some of us have been waiting a long time prior to BMCC.
I was waiting for the Scarlet 4K for 4K years ago and it didnt happen.
I wasnt soured by the experience since I was already work with a RED MX for years.
Now April 2012 comes and another promise was made...then delayed.
I had a choice to stick it out but decided to jump on the RED Scarlet offer two weeks ago.
Ive been wanting my own camera for years.
Would Ive been happy with the BMCC...SURE!!
But that didnt quite pan out for this year so Im good where I am :)
Come next year when Im a few months into my own projects with my Scarlet, I will be looking at the BMCC as my second camera :)

Edit: Where I am, there isnt much choice for 4K rental.
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