Micro Ursa?

I wonder what the next pocket is going to be 4k Ursa (4.6k sensor tech)? Is there going to be a pocket and a seperate micro (POV) head unit? Will they drop the other 4k cameras? So much waiting.

Will they ship the stuff from last years NAB before this years?

The whole situation is becoming a bit farcical


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I don't think the pocket needs a 4K sensor. The perfect pocket imo is one with a 2.5k sensor with global shutter and the exact same form factor, screen and all.

Pocket/bmcc =16mm film
Ursa= 35mm film

I don't think the pocket needs a 4K sensor. The perfect pocket imo is one with a 2.5k sensor with global shutter and the exact same form factor, screen and all.

Pocket/bmcc =16mm film
Ursa= 35mm film

+1

A 2.5K sensor in either the Pocket or Micro would be great!

A slight size increase for the Pocket-style camera to accommodate a better internal battery like LP-E6 or something, would be pretty nice too.

We are getting off topic here. I think the Pocket form factor is fine, a slight increase in battery grip,to accommodate a Nikon EN-EL 15, which is same power but slightly smaller than the Canon E6, and a higher res screen like the VA uses. Now none of this is going to happen, will be surprised if the Pocket is changed, too many issue points to deal with. The poor quality screen on the back was all but useless for me.

Now to get back on topic: The Micro form factor is going to be the next "Pocket camera" with the release of the Micro Studio, which with a monitor only version of the VA, or a upgraded VA with improved color calibration, or the new SamallHD 700 series monitor, will be a hard camera to beat. You can put the monitor where you need it, or change the monitor for a EFV, like the Wooden Camera modified BM EVF would be a killer rig. The Micro offers a large mix of rigging options, including hand held with a custom grip that incorporates start/stop and focus control (for native MFT lenses) and the EVF where you need it.

i believe that 4.6k sensor produces too many heat and large cooling system do not allow fit the camera into compact form factor.

Yes, the full size chip would Dmitry. But how about a 1-inch cut down version with 2.5K capability (like physical window mode, which would reduce the heat load to allow the Micro's cooling system to handle the load. The Micro does have a fan-based cooling system.

I meant pocket, and that a pov could he part of that. Like that gimbal camera.

I don't think the pocket needs a 4K sensor. The perfect pocket imo is one with a 2.5k sensor with global shutter and the exact same form factor, screen and all.

Pocket/bmcc =16mm film
Ursa= 35mm film

A bit too constrained, with the year missed the pocket canbe upgraded to 4k by now (existing sensor might need a heat production downgrade though, which others like Micron (Aptina) (and Sony from their deal) have.

What would be really great would be an appreciation of the problems with the current designs.

Ignoring the supply issues there are a few notable issues...

Batteries - the canon batteries are rubbish. It would be great if they went for an interchangeable plate to allow choice of canon, Sony L series or Panasonic batteries. Ideally alongside a wide range 5-32v DC input to allow running from any external power solution.

Sensor Size - BMD have never got this right, the sensor size should match the lens mount so that you get no crop factor.

Heat - again they have a poor track record, if they cannot get decent cooling in the form factor then make the body a bit bigger.

Resolutions - I'd not be too surprised if they produced an 8k camera at NAB! Personally I'd rather see a 4k B4 mount camera.

Studio / Cinema - I wish they'd drop this false distinction. Just put the CCU functionality into the cinema cameras. Less product variations might make development timescales easier to manage and nobody would object to getting ISO recording functions built into the studio solution, nor would cinema shooters object to wired remote control.

Tom, I agree with a number of things you said. The number of product lines is staggering. There might be a bit of a negative in combining studio and cinema lines. I don't mind it, but some people might see it differently in studio. After the original BMD was released (I think first year) I saw some truely horrible footage on ABC 24. I suspect somehow somebody got the idea to somehow fit a feed from a camera. Don't know what brand of camera, but did not look like a studio camera. It bears no relation anyway, BMD studio cameras would be the real deal, but maybe there is some custom tunning apart from different sensor formats.

But just on the portable side there should be just a micro 4k, pocket 4k, mini and Ursa4.6-8k. Can the rest. If they can function as a modular part of the studio line good. As some people have worked out, a modular head can be inserted with a recording display unit on a gimbal (oh please) and off the gimbal as a picket. The same head can insert into a 10 inch studio feed unit, or a portable Ursa mini unit with semi auto set picture and lens control, and eng prosumer functions (oh please, there is such a big market), and even on the the Ursa. The problem is cooling and a better picture might require a head not so small. So you probably produce 4k, 4.6k heads (8k might just not be small enough on the technology used. There is technology that could do it (Nokia basically ran a 8k sensor binned years ago. Which is a long time in development time for the industry to develop 8k low cost, low heat video sensors, which we will probably see in coming years). The industries roll out of acceptable technology often lags the capability to do so. The first 8k camera was over 12 years ago. When they want to boost revenues, and by.the looks of it the cist comes way down, they can release it. We are talking.big players here, not BMD. You might wonder about past sensor sizes, well that is what xsn happen when you have to by pass industry sources to get parts, like scientific sensors etc. Personally, Aptiba had a nice 4k video ready at the time. The manufacturer of the J1 let slip that their camera's Aptina sensor was already 4k video capable, and that he was looking into doing it, from memory. Last I saw of that. JVC also revealed there old very cheap hybrid sports camcorder already had a 4k video capable sensor in it and they were going to release a new 4k model (if only). They even showed the existing camera outputing 4k video a few ces's ago from memory. Last I heard about that. We are lucky to have BMD try this for us, but those FPGAs are one thing I would love to see go. The only descent FPGA's I have heard of dissapeared to the military over ten years ago, I know, I wanted to get my hands on them for a product. I'd rather see them using the new Nividia rig. They are going to release a credit card sized drone board with artifical intelligence video analysis that virtually pulls in 8k worth of video data. That is the reality of where things are at the moment. That credit card sized drone board is practically a pocket sized camera heart, at 8k. FPGA, is a big clumsy, power hungry, hot if you want big performance stop gap measure. Asic chips are good if you have the volume, and Chios Luke the nvidias are good alternatives (I isolate them out because they have done a nice low powered design).

Denny, because of the pockets problems it definitely needs a new version. So it is probably.more likely to happen, or be dropped eventually. I like the pocket concept, however, they never gave even a 1080p48/50 sports mode, so it was a failure. If only they could have done that with semi auto in firmware, it would have been good. Now it is time for 4kp50 (last year 4k p24/25 as an early development compromise). But the sensor thing is the thing. I'm reasonably happy if p50 had been, or will be, prores only.

The pocket camera is the greatest camera ever released for low budget independent filmmaking. I believe it was reviewed unfairly by many people who said it was unusable without a Speedbooster. I understand that if you have a lot of full frame glass you want to use it, but anyone young coming in fresh should save their summer job money and grab a pocket with a 16mm lens and start learning.

There is still a lensing standard in 35mm motion picture production, and in learning how lenses work on the pocket you only have to double your focal length when moving to super 35
A 16/17mm lens on the pocket will be a 35mm on a 35mm motion picture film camera.

I believe deakins shot the opening of no country for old men all on a 35mm lens, the obsession with getting ultra wide lenses is unwarranted imo. I have a 12mm on the pocket and it's plenty wide, i stay far back to avoid distortion.

I hope there is still a place for this small sensor in 2k, 2.5k it requires less computing power and less $$ for startup, 2k is still a totally viable delivery res for web, tv, and smaller rep cinema type theatres

I should have pointed out, one of the heat issues, from memory, with sensors, is the size of the sensor. However, I don't remember how that applies to cmos, as with ccd's you had to push the charge across chip, and certain cmos. However, if it does apply to.the ursa technology greatly, then a smaller sensor will produce a lot less heat. A 4/3rds might produce around 60% or less of this heat 16mm might produce around less than1/3rd of this heat. However, running at a higher frame rate can lead to a disproportional increase in heat from memory, but I don't remember exactly.

As this thread is also on the possibility of bringing ursa 4.6k sensor technology (rather than the resolution) down to other devices, it seems possible a 16mm, or s16, 4k sensor might fit in a micro/pocket (particularly if they can go with a nvidia style processing solution). However, if the technology increases a p50 solution might be possible and similar performance to the 4.6k.

It would be good if we could measure the heat from the different chips safely.

I believe it was reviewed unfairly

I think the BMPCC is pretty great, which is why I own one, but it deserved every criticism it got at release. Let's count the reasons:

- White orb artifacts at specular/bright highlights.
- No RAW support.
- No audio meters.
- No histogram.
- No way to format cards in camera.
- Entering metadata was/is frustrating.
- Can't output a Rec.709 signal while recording in Log/BMDFilm.
- Can't re-assign button functions.
- EN-EL20 batteries drained quickly.
- Moiré, aliasing, and false colour all over the place.

For someone to say that the camera was reviewed unfairly... I dunno. Like I said, I own one and it does good work but shooting with it carried a lot of caveats. Still does, actually.

Tom, you make several great points, coming from a,TV Studio production background. The BM Studio camera should have had a B4 mount option, with a built in optical correction block to allow the lens to cover the S16 size sensor or have a traditional broadcast 2/3rds sensor set up. The Cinema cameras and the Studio/Production cameras have two different color/science set ups, and should be different. What works for a Movie set, or single camera narrative production work flow, everything recorded and graded in post, would not be the best in a TV studio situation, where lighting is more controlled and out of the camera exposure/color balance/saturation is more controlled and needs to me matched between cameras.

The URSA Mini 4K PL/B4 is a step in the right direction for a camera that can be used anywhere in Studio or out in the field, offering a lot of professional lens options, while the EF mount suits those coming from a DSLR background that want to continue using their existing lenses.

Bobby, right on, the Pocket camera was a great idea, and the Pocket camera sensor, kind of has its foot in both doors, with the ability to switch color levels and saturation curves with the "Video/Film log" selection and raw recording option. The Pocket is a great camera for many applications, and someone just starting out, to learn with. But it needs a better LCD panel, to make the screen more useable, so you do not need to add another monitor just to be able to use the camera. It also needs a different HDMI connection solution, but if used with care, the micro HDMI connection does work for occasional use, but not in daily, on set handeling situations, it is just not the right tool here, too fragile. All of the initial release issues were resolved quite quickly, and many basic function/monitoring options were added over its first year of release. BM is taking a different tact with the Micro Cinema camera and getting it working correctly before release.

Wayne, excellent comments. The Micro Studio 4K, is the S16 format 4K camera, outputs 50/60fps rate too for sports applications -- just add the recorder/monitor of choice. Is is a modular camera head you can adapt to many different shooting situations. Would like to see the B4 lens option setup completed with lens connector and

The Micro Cinema camera takes the Pocket camera to the next step for a lot of field and set applications, again a modular camera head approach, with the dovience of a built it recorder, and the Pocket camera's IQ taken to the next step and adds 50/60fps, full size HDMI (would like to see a SDI version) a step to making it more robust and reliable. Again, just add the monitor/EVF of choice for the shooting situation, and you are good to go. This is a great application for a lot of situations.

Are all of them prefect, no. Is there room for improvement and growth, absolutely! Keep improving the line up BM, you are getting there.
Cheers

I believe it was reviewed unfairly

I think the BMPCC is pretty great, which is why I own one, but it deserved every criticism it got at release. Let's count the reasons:

- White orb artifacts at specular/bright highlights.
- No RAW support.
- No audio meters.
- No histogram.
- No way to format cards in camera.
- Entering metadata was/is frustrating.
- Can't output a Rec.709 signal while recording in Log/BMDFilm.
- Can't re-assign button functions.
- EN-EL20 batteries drained quickly.
- Moiré, aliasing, and false colour all over the place.

For someone to say that the camera was reviewed unfairly... I dunno. Like I said, I own one and it does good work but shooting with it carried a lot of caveats. Still does, actually.

Add my entire quote, I was referring to the major gripe which was the sensor size. I always recorded audio separately, it's easy to sync in post, I don't expect a camera that size and price to function as well as an Alexa. The battery complaints are overblown as well, sure it needs a better battery but does it stop you from making a short film with it, no way. I've shot interviews, performances, shorts and family stuff with mine, if I need power and can't break I use the dc plug. I have 3 batteries and rotate them while shooting, I'm used to doing that from shooting on older digital cams. I made a short on the canon gl1 years ago and the noise was like fresh snow on the frame, and that camera I believe was over 2000$ when released.
Moire is annoying yes, I would love it to not be there, but I work around it and haven't had any project ruined because of it.

Now a young filmmaker can shoot stuff on a 1000$ camera in a format and bit rate that can actually be archived or projected against professional footage. It's amazing.

I've said it before , I hope there's a pocket 2 in the works I really love mine. But if there's not I'll probably buy a micro once they're released and the global shutter footage comes out.

I like the pocket concept, however, they never gave even a 1080p48/50 sports mode, so it was a failure.

A failure?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
I heard from a close source it's their most successful camera. You call that a failure because it didn't have a sports mode for you?

I'm reasonably happy if p50 had been, or will be, prores only.

From everything we've heard higher framerates in raw are easier to manage heat wise, since prores is compressed so much. Look at the AJA Cion, advertised as 120fps but only in RAW (and even then can't record that in camera), prores is only 60fps. So it seems more likely for higher rates to be RAW than prores.

Also, try the "return" key once in a while. Craft some paragraphs instead of one giant long string of sentences. Your posts are hard to read.

I write intre related streaming of super paragraphs. Very difficult art. I'm only just learning not to write super sentences.

So you really want me to use 20 paragraphs instead of two to make it easier to read Steven. lol.

Yeah, its a failure for my purposes and much work. Maybe they could have doubled or x10 their sales selling it to non cinema people. If they can knock off those 1/2.3 $5kau prosumer cameras it would be good. For a couple hundred more they could have done the job, some case changes, snap on controls module, just buy your own rig and lens. So yes, not as popular as it could have been. Pity I did not buy it when it was $500 (what was that about). So, some little more firmware effort would have made it more appealing without a redesign.

Now, whatever fullhdp50 codec makes it easier for them, even uncompressed, or the HDMI fullhdp50 deep color output I kept asking for, would have been good (which means that a 4kp50 deep color output in a new version is also something, but this year in camera recording. Fortunately there is new megafast and reliable flash alternative from Intel this year, so they can even offer uncompressed with confidence on a new small camera (probably dual storage to use cheaper storage). One reason they didn't want to stretch things is because of flash issues with performance reliability.

I thought the raw compressed codec might have been heavier than some of the prores options. With prores you can set compression ratios and datarate down to what it can take, and if it turns out only better than h264/h265 cameras by double in p50 mode, than that is a bonus, you still have p50 and no inter frame motion nonsense. Wouldn't you agree that would still be a bit useful Steven?

I've said it before , I hope there's a pocket 2 in the works I really love mine. But if there's not I'll probably buy a micro once they're released and the global shutter footage comes out.

Pocket 2, Pocket 2, yeah! , to the tune of the old doctor who pop single. Unfortunately it might just be a s16 sensor that records to 4kp30 with old 4k sensor tech . Even if it had hdmi 4k p50 deep color, at this stage (by the time you buy a descent recorder you are nearer the price of the mini 4k. It's OK if you have a recorder, want to set up a carry around PC to do it, have a studio mount with HDMI cable available, or if BMD us finally going to release a second version of their recording screen in 4kp50 deep color (hopefully).

HDMI

Somebody mentioned a problem with using a mini HDMI port in studio. There are maybe 90 degree angled hdmi adaptors. You can get a small Velcro or other loop, stick it on the camera and route and hold the cable from the hdmi port in the direction you want it to go. Should keep the profile low and help stop it being pulled or knocked out often. Bunnnings hardware trip.

Wayne why wait, you can have full HD 1080p50, with rich color recording today, with a Micro Studio camera and the VA. I got this setup for doing 1080p60, works great, not any larger than a Pocket camera with an external monitor. Or, you can wait and get the Micro Cinema camera that can record 1080p50/60 internally to its SD card (SanDisk Extreme Pro cards work for 1080p50/50, tested this), and add a monitor or EVF of choice. Then again, might as well wait and see what NAB brings too. Cheers

Wayneatonetimewritinghadnotinventedaspacecharacter.

But I think you can agree reading is easier with a space to separate words. The same can be said about super sentences and writing without any paragraph breaks. It's simply easier to read and likely easier to communicate your ideas when you use a sentence to express a complete thought and a paragraph to express an idea.

Good luck with it. You have a lot of interesting comments, so I'm hopefully not coming across as being negatively critical, just trying to help you communicate those great concepts.


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Wayneatonetimewritinghadnotinventedtheconceptofaspace


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Youmeanlikechinese? [你的意思是像中国的语言？]

Iwasthinkingofbiblicalhebrewbutithinkitappliestomany.


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YesRickbutachienthebrewwaswrittenfromrighttoleftwasitnot
Also,you,can,do,as,I,do,and,use,a,comma,for,a,space,between,words! Cheers

.sammocontubtfelotthgirnettirwsawtiseyynneD


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[Tony Rivera]

OK Tony, cipotnokcabteglliweW So, Tony any update on when the Micro Cinema camera my get released? Any chance for a March release? Thanks for any info you Can give, understand, you may not know either. Cheers.

Tony walked right into that.

Agreed! Thanks Gene, I needed a good laugh

Don't be silly. Blackmagic do not talk about release schedules.

Personally I think it's a ghost product. Just like URSA Broadcast it won't ever exist. At NAB we will see a revised version in a slightly different format with an announcement which says "due to our experiences with the micro studio, video assist and URSA mini 4.6k we have revised the micro cinema camera design."





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You might be right Tom, except there are several beta test Micro Cinema cameras in filed that I know of. So... we will have to wait and see.

[Tony Rivera]

Trust me when I say it is very much a real product.

I don't have a shipping schedule for this currently but there will be more information coming.

I trust they tell you that Tony...

How many weeks until NAB is it now? We know the whole team at BMD is currently flat out working on 100+ new products to launch at NAB. Whatever the holdup with the cameras is will be backburnered until after the new product announcements.

Come on we should all be getting excited about new things, not worrying about old things..

we have Hyperdeck Studio Pro 12G to look forward too
12G Mini Converters
12G ATEM 1ME
12G Talkback Fibre thingy
BMD VR camera
URSA 4.6 PL v2
Fusion VR AutoStitch
Divinci HDR
4k HDR monitors

And hundreds of other new shiney imaginary products to enjoy all mocked up in glorious HDR hero images for the website...

I can't wait to see all the new things i can imagine using on my imaginary productions, I'm getting so excited i might just send all my money to B+H now for a preorderpreorder - after all the new stuff is bound to be really exciting, and probably highly useful when it finally gets shipped out in 2018

[Tony Rivera]

You're inclined to think/believe as you will but I do know for a fact the Micro Cinemas are an actual thing.

Anything else coming as far as announcements @NAB or other events are reserved for those times. I'm not the person to be unveiling new products.

Edit:
My apologies for getting off topic. You'd think I'd know better by now.

Personally I think it's a ghost product.

It's real. I've used it. So have several others who've publicly released footage. Just like the 4.6K Ursa Mini.

JB

Personally I think it's a ghost product.

It's real. I've used it. So have several others who've publicly released footage. Just like the 4.6K Ursa Mini.

JB

I'm sure you're right, but you realize there have been more sightings of the Loch Ness Monster than the BMMCC.

Edit:
My apologies for getting off topic. You'd think I'd know better by now.

LOL sorry for the wide up Tony, I believe in the MicroCinema - i'm sure it will be great when it ships.

You've got to see the funny side of all this though really. Clearly we are loyal customers or we would've given up on the whole thing years ago. But it is a farce when products are consistently delayed every year, year on year for as long as you've been making cameras. We know that Blackmagic are not going to change their tactics with this, and we know that of the new products announced at NAB most will not ship on time. We also know that you are not allowed to acknowledge these delays or to speculate on future timescales.

But just like the kid who was always late at school you have to expect a certain about of ribbing for the delays. Most people are seeing the funny side these days i think. I hope you get the joke and don't feel we have been unfair.

The Micro Cinema Camera was last seen with "The Bear" from "The Revenant".

No doubt she is making home movies now.
So be on the lookout for the behind the scenes of the making of "The Revenant" from "The Bear" 's POV.

*Ooooph* Unbearable.

Wayneatonetimewritinghadnotinventedaspacecharacter.

But I think you can agree reading is easier with a space to separate words. The same can be said about super sentences and writing without any paragraph breaks. It's simply easier to read and likely easier to communicate your ideas when you use a sentence to express a complete thought and a paragraph to express an idea.

Good luck with it. You have a lot of interesting comments, so I'm hopefully not coming across as being negatively critical, just trying to help you communicate those great concepts.


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OK, stop with allthat guys, before I write something rude without spaces that is read as at least two different polite things at the same time.

Now Rick, they are already so, just that sophisticated writing reveals that things are interrelated, and writing in condensed form (rather than 1.5-3x longer) does so. It is just that some can't comprehend the superior writing.

My apologies for getting off topic. You'd think I'd know better by now.

NO SOUP FOR YOU!

Off to "Off-Topic" for you. Do not pass go.

Micro Ursa?Micro Ursa? Micro Ursa?

we are back on topic now

Personally I think it's a ghost product.

It's real. I've used it. So have several others who've publicly released footage. Just like the 4.6K Ursa Mini.

JB

Ah yes, but are you real or a BMD fabrication coming out in July(nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean?)?

Ah yes, but are you real or a BMD fabrication coming out in July(nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean?)?

I could be real.....

JB

I could be real.....

?

John, darling! Been spending a little too much time with Captain Hook in Neverland, have you?

I could be real.....

?

John, darling! Been spending a little too much time with Captain Hook in Neverland, have you?

Do I hear clapping?

Tinkerbell1.jpg (2.52 KiB) Viewed 10417 times

Maybe if we clap loud enough the BMMCC will come to life.

"BMMCC, BMMCC, BMMCC!"

BMMCC! BMMCC! Come on out....

I was thinking that if you say BMMCC three times the BMMCC will appear, just like if you say Beetlejuice three times he appears.

At this stage of the game what is there to lose?

Either you can catch the clap, I mean you can clap or you can say BMMCC three times.

Good luck, may the force be with you.

No animals were hurt in the making of this Public Service Announcement.

Long Live BMD!