Using the Ursa Mini 4.6k as a 2k RAW Super 16mm Camera?

I have really enjoyed the pocket camera as a super 16 raw film camera but I would really like to have the ergonomics of the ursa mini. Shoulder mount, built in xlrs, lcd screen, EVF etc with a minimum of extra parts and wires.

I own the Arri 11-110 t2.2 with wide angle adapter and 2x extender. This lens along with the Ursa Mini PL form factor would be the perfect do everything doc camera for me. Plus I can shoot 4K with s35 lenses if needed.

My question is how does the 4.6k sensor perform in 2k cropped RAW at normal speeds 24fps etc? Is it compareable to the pocket? is the high iso performance comparable to the pocket?

Anyone who has the camera that could share any info would be great. I am currently based in Ethiopia so I am not able to rent at this point otherwise I would test it myself.

Joshua Smith
joshuasmith.media

I have had a few responses on bmcuser. It sounds like it could be a viable option.

Does anyone have a pocket and ursa mini 4.6k that they would be willing to do a direct test at iso 800 and 1600?

Joshua, I'll be testing 2K raw /ProRes HD in window mode if my lens support for the Fujinon 20x7.8B-M10 B4 manual zoom ever arrives! Painfully slow to get this last bit of kit. Please PM me with the specifics you want tested.


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Sadly based on my math I don't think 2K RAW windowed mode is Super 16mm Sensor Size:

http://www.timbutt2.com/about/camera-in ... ndows.html

See, if my math is correct, then that means that the 2K crop mode is only 11.26mm x 5.94mm compared to the Super 16mm film gate size of 12.52mm x 7.41mm. The pocket is 12.48mm x 7.02mm, which is far closer to Super 16mm.

My math says that if the URSA Mini 4.6K was to do a 2.3K RAW Window (2277x1348) the sensor would be using 12.52mm x 7.41mm. Now that's not a 1.78:1 aspect ratio, but closer to Super 16mm 1.66:1. So the height pixels could be slightly less (1281px; 7.04mm) to achieve 1.78:1

Now, this is just the math I did for my own purposes to see what the actual sensor area being used by 2K windowed mode is compared to other formats. This is not official from Blackmagic Design. They can dispute my math if it is wrong, and it very well could be, because I don't truly know the underworking of the windowed mode system. This is an educated guess based on math.

Tim, your math is fine, but I think Joshua was just interested in the resolution of 2K rather than any film Super 35 physical dimension. The size of 2K and HD on all the BMD sensors that have 5.5 micron photosites are physically smaller than the original BMCC/BMPCC that had a more generous 6.5 micron photosite. If your sensor design goal is to stay within the boundaries of Super 35 lenses, you need to make some sacrifices when offering a 4K+ sensor. BMD elected to go with the smaller photosite. Still 5.5 micron is a huge photosite compared to my other 4K camera: the iPhone!


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Hey Tim,

Your right it is slightly smaller. It would be amazing if BM gave a true S16 crop recording option like ARRI just did. What I have read so far is that the crop factor compared to 135 film is 3.2x. Thats not a deal breaker to me. The wide angles remain wide with that small of a crop. The wide angle Mutar adapter for my zoom gives me 6.6mm so still very wide.

if the iso performance is at least the same as the pocket it would be a great setup.

Joshua, I'll be testing 2K raw /ProRes HD in window mode if my lens support for the Fujinon 20x7.8B-M10 B4 manual zoom ever arrives! Painfully slow to get this last bit of kit. Please PM me with the specifics you want tested.


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Thanks Rick. Will you be using the B4 adapter? I am mainly concerned with ISO performance and Dynamic range compared to the pocket/micro. I often use the Pocket at ISO 800 @ f1.4 or 1600 @ f2. I would really like to know if it is just as good or maybe even better in these levels of darkness. I tried to attach a screenshot put it wouldn't upload for some reason.

Yes, I have a Fujinon B4 HD 2/3" and the BMB4 optical mount. When I get my lens mount, I can show you what 7.8mm looks like but my old zoom is only T2.4. I can find something to shoot for the camera's ISO range from 200 to 1600. Finding darkness won't be a problem!


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In my very unscientific tests shooting ISO800 with a B4 lens, using the BM B4 mount, and windowed 1080 to ProRes, comparing it to the BMPCC I'd say the pocket cam is less noisy in the blacks. My guess is the photosites of the pocket sensor are bigger, so may have better photon harvesting. But the UM4.6k has better DR.

For ENG, corporate and event work, using B4 lenses in the 1080 windowed mode provides great results. And that's shooting ProRes. I haven't tested shooting RAW yet. I wouldn't use this combination for cinema shooting as it would be better to use the full S35 gate.


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Tristan, you are spot on about when to use the B4 lens. And the BMPCC photosites, like the BMCC, are 6.5 microns. Makes a difference all right. And it's a completely different sensor as well of course which influences its behaviour. BMD has done very good things with the image on the BMCC, BMPCC, BMPK4K, and the original URSA. The newer cameras may take some time to get the best out of them. The latest 3.2 firmware is an example of image improvements, and then there's 4.0 on the horizon which brings so many options.


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It would be very interesting to see a windowed S16 mode on the UM4.6k.

Shooting RAW, you'd have a bit of oversampling if your target resolution was 1080 or 2K DCI. You could use S16 PL mount lenses which could provide a different aesthetic to shooting S35.

Hey Tim,

Your right it is slightly smaller. It would be amazing if BM gave a true S16 crop recording option like ARRI just did. What I have read so far is that the crop factor compared to 135 film is 3.2x. Thats not a deal breaker to me. The wide angles remain wide with that small of a crop. The wide angle Mutar adapter for my zoom gives me 6.6mm so still very wide.

if the iso performance is at least the same as the pocket it would be a great setup.

I may hit start a thread seeing what the demand for such a sensor crop would be. I would totally dig having a true S16 crop. It's just 2.3K, which is perfect oversampling for 2K and HD. Actually, 2.3K is exactly half of 4.6K so it really makes sense.

I don't compare the crop factor to 135 film since we're talking about motion image technology. I'd rather equate everything to S35 or S16.

Would totally love to use PL S16 lenses on an URSA Mini in 2.3K (S16) crop mode. It would completely make my day having such a feature inside the BUM 4.6K.

Okay, if you twist my arm, I'll support that recommendation for a 2304x1296 16:9 window and a 2304x960 2.4:1 window at a minimum. But I thought I was done with lens selections. Which Super 16 Cine zoom lens **** you think would get me interested?


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It would be very interesting to see a windowed S16 mode on the UM4.6k.

Shooting RAW, you'd have a bit of oversampling if your target resolution was 1080 or 2K DCI. You could use S16 PL mount lenses which could provide a different aesthetic to shooting S35.

I agree it would be amazing to have both. I really like the s16 aesthetic plus you can get faster lenses. t1.3 primes and t2 zooms.

In my very unscientific tests shooting ISO800 with a B4 lens, using the BM B4 mount, and windowed 1080 to ProRes, comparing it to the BMPCC I'd say the pocket cam is less noisy in the blacks. My guess is the photosites of the pocket sensor are bigger, so may have better photon harvesting. But the UM4.6k has better DR.

For ENG, corporate and event work, using B4 lenses in the 1080 windowed mode provides great results. And that's shooting ProRes. I haven't tested shooting RAW yet. I wouldn't use this combination for cinema shooting as it would be better to use the full S35 gate.


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Could you link to some of the footage you shot?

I am not really a cinema shooter. I shoot mainly documentaries, corporate and events but I do love the flexibility of raw for documentary. setting white balance and full exposure control in post is amazing. memory prices for 2K resolution make it a reasonable choice these days. Especially with 3:1 vs the pockets compressed raw. Interviews I always shoot prores but raw is great for everything else.

Hey Tim,

Your right it is slightly smaller. It would be amazing if BM gave a true S16 crop recording option like ARRI just did. What I have read so far is that the crop factor compared to 135 film is 3.2x. Thats not a deal breaker to me. The wide angles remain wide with that small of a crop. The wide angle Mutar adapter for my zoom gives me 6.6mm so still very wide.

if the iso performance is at least the same as the pocket it would be a great setup.

I may hit start a thread seeing what the demand for such a sensor crop would be. I would totally dig having a true S16 crop. It's just 2.3K, which is perfect oversampling for 2K and HD. Actually, 2.3K is exactly half of 4.6K so it really makes sense.

I don't compare the crop factor to 135 film since we're talking about motion image technology. I'd rather equate everything to S35 or S16.

Would totally love to use PL S16 lenses on an URSA Mini in 2.3K (S16) crop mode. It would completely make my day having such a feature inside the BUM 4.6K.

I would definitely be in support. I much prefer s16 for the size of the lenses.

Okay, if you twist my arm, I'll support that recommendation for a 2304x1296 16:9 window and a 2304x960 2.4:1 window at a minimum. But I thought I was done with lens selections. Which Super 16 Cine zoom lens **** you think would get me interested?


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Hey Rick, I think the most popular zooms are the Arri/Zeiss 11-110/12-120 T2.2 and the Canon 7-64 T2.4 but there a lot of other options. I have the Zeiss 11-110 version with a .6x wide angle adapter and a 2x adapter so in effect I can have 6.6mm t2.2 prime, 11mm-110mm t2.2 and 22mm-220mm t4.4 in one 7 inch long lens. In s35 terms thats roughly a 13mm-218mm t2.2 and 21mm-436mm t4.4. Thats an amazing range in a small package plus it is parfocal.

The 16mm converted lenses 12-120 are the cheapest right now. You can even still get the conversion done. Jorge Diaz-Amador at CinemaTechnic, LLC recently told me they have some of the conversion kits in stock if you find a good deal on a zeiss 10-100 t2 it can sill be converted.

Here is a the kit I bought recently. https://www.dropbox.com/s/eqwlqma0fbjgv ... 5.jpg?dl=0

The 16mm converted lenses 12-120 are the cheapest right now. You can even still get the conversion done. Jorge Diaz-Amador at CinemaTechnic, LLC recently told me they have some of the conversion kits in stock if you find a good deal on a zeiss 10-100 t2 it can sill be converted.

Here is a the kit I bought recently. https://www.dropbox.com/s/eqwlqma0fbjgv ... 5.jpg?dl=0

How much did the conversion kit cost?

The 16mm converted lenses 12-120 are the cheapest right now. You can even still get the conversion done. Jorge Diaz-Amador at CinemaTechnic, LLC recently told me they have some of the conversion kits in stock if you find a good deal on a zeiss 10-100 t2 it can sill be converted.

Here is a the kit I bought recently. https://www.dropbox.com/s/eqwlqma0fbjgv ... 5.jpg?dl=0

How much did the conversion kit cost?

$2183 installed and calibrated including a pl mount if the original is b mount. I know someone selling a 11-110 I the UK and Germany as well if your interested.

The 16mm converted lenses 12-120 are the cheapest right now. You can even still get the conversion done. Jorge Diaz-Amador at CinemaTechnic, LLC recently told me they have some of the conversion kits in stock if you find a good deal on a zeiss 10-100 t2 it can sill be converted.

Here is a the kit I bought recently. https://www.dropbox.com/s/eqwlqma0fbjgv ... 5.jpg?dl=0

How much did the conversion kit cost?

$2183 installed and calibrated including a pl mount if the original is b mount. I know someone selling a 11-110 I the UK and Germany as well if your interested.

I might be interested in that lens. I'm from Aus though. Would they ship internationally? And is there somewhere I can look?

this is mine zeiss 10-100 T2.4 PL mount for S16 cameras.... on BMMCC
it's no ARRI
fantastic lens!!

Thanks, Joshua and Luca. Good to know if the option is added at some point. Until then I already have the Fujinon HA20x7.8B B4 Cine zoom so that hopefully will give me decent performance with a similar frame as traditional 16mm (horizontal 10.26mm versus 10.56mm for the 4.6K HD window) just like my ancient Bolex, but not Super 16.


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I would definitely be in support. I much prefer s16 for the size of the lenses.

Well, since the good folks at Blackmagic read these forums I think we already have a good dedicated thread. So, I'll throw my support. Anyone else who wants to throw their support can voice it below.

I would also love to have a Super16 window for URSA Mini. Currently using a BMPCC with the Canon 10.6-180 T2.7.

Also wondering could Global Shutter be made to work for a S16 crop, even if it's not possible for the full 4.6k

Dante, wouldn't that be a hoot? Rolling shutter UHD and above, global shutter 2.3K and below. Woohoo!


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Having a true S16 crop on the Mini might get me to buy one also! That said, another nice "little" S16 zoom is the Angenieux 17.5-70mm zoom. Worked great on my Pocket and so far, liking the look on the Micro Cinema camera. Also Zeiss Super Speeds are nice, looking to add two more to my kit and selling my Zeiss ZF Cine conversion lenses.
Cheers

It certainly would Rick. Hope BM are reading.

Went to a talk by Barry Ackroyd who likes using Super16 Zooms. Same range of focal length as a 7kg S35 Zoom in a 1.5kg form factor

Sadly based on my math I don't think 2K RAW windowed mode is Super 16mm Sensor Size:

http://www.timbutt2.com/about/camera-in ... ndows.html

See, if my math is correct, then that means that the 2K crop mode is only 11.26mm x 5.94mm compared to the Super 16mm film gate size of 12.52mm x 7.41mm. The pocket is 12.48mm x 7.02mm, which is far closer to Super 16mm.

My math says that if the URSA Mini 4.6K was to do a 2.3K RAW Window (2277x1348) the sensor would be using 12.52mm x 7.41mm. Now that's not a 1.78:1 aspect ratio, but closer to Super 16mm 1.66:1. So the height pixels could be slightly less (1281px; 7.04mm) to achieve 1.78:1

Now, this is just the math I did for my own purposes to see what the actual sensor area being used by 2K windowed mode is compared to other formats. This is not official from Blackmagic Design. They can dispute my math if it is wrong, and it very well could be, because I don't truly know the underworking of the windowed mode system. This is an educated guess based on math.

I think that this thread is once again hot stuff after the new S16 mode on P4K through FW update.

I did some tests cropping 4.6K footage shot with UMP G1 & Opton S16 lenses and found out that the image circle of those Optons made use of 2.3K of the sensor - just like Tim mentioned years before. That's way over what the 2K crop mode baked in offers. It seems that the 2K sensor coverage therefore is less than standard S16mm film?

So I'm just wondering, would it be possible to get an update similar to P4K that would give UMP users access to larger S16 mode? It feels that especially in the wide end this would be a significant improvement for S16 lens enthusiasts.

Or is the G1 UMP already EOL and doesn't therefore receive future updates?

Sadly based on my math I don't think 2K RAW windowed mode is Super 16mm Sensor Size:

http://www.timbutt2.com/about/camera-in ... ndows.html

See, if my math is correct, then that means that the 2K crop mode is only 11.26mm x 5.94mm compared to the Super 16mm film gate size of 12.52mm x 7.41mm. The pocket is 12.48mm x 7.02mm, which is far closer to Super 16mm.

My math says that if the URSA Mini 4.6K was to do a 2.3K RAW Window (2277x1348) the sensor would be using 12.52mm x 7.41mm. Now that's not a 1.78:1 aspect ratio, but closer to Super 16mm 1.66:1. So the height pixels could be slightly less (1281px; 7.04mm) to achieve 1.78:1

Now, this is just the math I did for my own purposes to see what the actual sensor area being used by 2K windowed mode is compared to other formats. This is not official from Blackmagic Design. They can dispute my math if it is wrong, and it very well could be, because I don't truly know the underworking of the windowed mode system. This is an educated guess based on math.

I think that this thread is once again hot stuff after the new S16 mode on P4K through FW update.

I did some tests cropping 4.6K footage shot with UMP G1 & Opton S16 lenses and found out that the image circle of those Optons made use of 2.3K of the sensor - just like Tim mentioned years before. That's way over what the 2K crop mode baked in offers. It seems that the 2K sensor coverage therefore is less than standard S16mm film?

So I'm just wondering, would it be possible to get an update similar to P4K that would give UMP users access to larger S16 mode? It feels that especially in the wide end this would be a significant improvement for S16 lens enthusiasts.

Or is the G1 UMP already EOL and doesn't therefore receive future updates?

Well, maybe the UMP G2 could benefit from an update similar to this. Especially if they can get the 300 FPS at 2.3K Super 16mm Crop that would be amazing! Even 240 FPS at 2.3K Super 16 would be pretty awesome!