ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

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Nimrod Erez

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ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 3:04 am

Hello team,

My camera originals are 4K ProRes HQ 422 Log-C from an Arri Amira. Delivery is expected in DCI-P3 for DCP. Working with a DCI capable monitor (Eizo) but not sure about how to handle the media while grading. My instinct tells me that a Log-C to 709 LUT from Arri would limit the picture, so I created a Log-C to DCI LUT using Arri's LUT generator.

Am I correct about this?

Aside from using a LUT, camera crew is diligent with using a color chart and while the source gamma in the color match window is easy to understand (selecting Log-C) the target gamma (2.2, 2.4, 2.6?) is a mystery. The target color space I assume should also be set to DCI?
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David Franzo

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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 03, 2017 4:18 pm

I would avoid using the Color Match utility since the LUT you created will do what you need. That utility is more for matching different brands of cameras.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostSat Mar 04, 2017 5:43 am

Nimrod Erez wrote:My camera originals are 4K ProRes HQ 422 Log-C from an Arri Amira. Delivery is expected in DCI-P3 for DCP. Working with a DCI capable monitor (Eizo) but not sure about how to handle the media while grading. My instinct tells me that a Log-C to 709 LUT from Arri would limit the picture, so I created a Log-C to DCI LUT using Arri's LUT generator.

I would not overthink this. You can always just look at the Arri Log C -> Rec709 LUT, then match the picture without any LUTs at all using the controls provided. Monitor on a calibrated Rec709 display, then at the very end of the process, deliver a high-quality Rec709 file (like a ProRes 444 or DNxHR 444 file), and whoever makes the DCP will take care of all the color space and gamma space issues for P3 DCI projection.

There's at least 10-12 companies in LA that will do this affordably: I've used SimpleDCP in Culver City, and they're nice people who do good work.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostSun Mar 05, 2017 8:55 pm

if you like using a lut, the one created from the arri Web site will do the job, however I have concerns that your monitor will not be a faithful representation.

I will stick with 709 on a calibrated environment, do the dcp from there and it will be fine.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 12:00 am

Thanks Marc and Walter,

Good suggestions. The monitor is a self calibrating Eizo ColorEdge CG318. Assuming its picture is accurate, wouldn't you still opt to work in a greater color range than 709?

We usually hire Chainsaw for DCP creation, they have a great screening room.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 12:44 am

If you have fairly good monitoring for P3 than going through Rec.709 sounds bad (at least of me).
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 6:49 am

unless you're sure that your color correction will exceed rec 709 gamut, a bigger color space is useless.

think in this way: of you a black and white scene, does it matter if your in 709, p3 or 2020? no.

so, which kind of footage you have, which direction, style you're looking for and do on.

"almost p3" "and self calibrating" are really really scary things.

i will never do a theatrical master on a monitor, abs of I'm forced at gunpoint, i want a perfect measurable calibrated monitor.

trying to hit p3 and have (for example) the red primary out by 1 degree (une the mat is done) because is uncalibrated it will make all your skins magenta (or greener) than intended.

this is a deal breaker for me.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 8:28 pm

Thanks Walter. Would you be available to visit our studio? We're in Beverly Hills area.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 8:39 pm

I checked the Eizo specs and it covers 98% of P3, but I understand this pertains to the gamut, not the hue, meaning some colors at the edge of the gamut will be clipped but the hue will not be off.

I migt still grade in 709 as I take yours (and Marc's) suggestion with great respect. I understand that in the real-world the difference between 709 and P3 is nearly negligible.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 9:40 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:unless you're sure that your color correction will exceed rec 709 gamut, a bigger color space is useless.

think in this way: of you a black and white scene, does it matter if your in 709, p3 or 2020? no.

so, which kind of footage you have, which direction, style you're looking for and do on.

"almost p3" "and self calibrating" are really really scary things.

i will never do a theatrical master on a monitor, abs of I'm forced at gunpoint, i want a perfect measurable calibrated monitor.

trying to hit p3 and have (for example) the red primary out by 1 degree (une the mat is done) because is uncalibrated it will make all your skins magenta (or greener) than intended.

this is a deal breaker for me.


Almost is 98% here (missing 2% are greens mainly). This one of the best (after big K price tag) monitors you can get.

You can't say that footage was graded in P3, if you went through Rec.709. That's nasty.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 9:41 pm

Nimrod Erez wrote:I checked the Eizo specs and it covers 98% of P3, but I understand this pertains to the gamut, not the hue, meaning some colors at the edge of the gamut will be clipped but the hue will not be off.

I migt still grade in 709 as I take yours (and Marc's) suggestion with great respect. I understand that in the real-world the difference between 709 and P3 is nearly negligible.


Yes, probably not huge difference, but if this is for cinema than I assume it's worth it ( I assume you have wide gamut sources- RED, ARRI, Sony).

Check Eizo against DCI projector. Projectors have always different feel to LCD monitors, so even your Rec.709 master will feel somehow different.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 10:33 pm

Yes, source is ARRI Log-C, albeit in ProRes 422 HQ.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 10:44 pm

ProRes won't (shouldn't) clip gamut, just will be bit softer.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 12:06 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:unless you're sure that your color correction will exceed rec 709 gamut, a bigger color space is useless.

think in this way: of you a black and white scene, does it matter if your in 709, p3 or 2020? no.

so, which kind of footage you have, which direction, style you're looking for and do on.

"almost p3" "and self calibrating" are really really scary things.

i will never do a theatrical master on a monitor, abs of I'm forced at gunpoint, i want a perfect measurable calibrated monitor.

trying to hit p3 and have (for example) the red primary out by 1 degree (une the mat is done) because is uncalibrated it will make all your skins magenta (or greener) than intended.

this is a deal breaker for me.


Almost is 98% here (missing 2% are greens mainly). This one of the best (after big K price tag) monitors you can get.

You can't say that footage was graded in P3, if you went through Rec.709. That's nasty.



you will be surprised to discover how many big $$$ production are finished in a theatrical environment targeting rec 709....

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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 12:13 am

Well, I suspect this and find it poor and nasty (but business is business). This is why I have limited respect to big places. Big nowadays doesn't mean good at all.
At the end it's about final claim- if it says graded in P3 than I expect "pure" P3 not a convert from Rec.709.
Cinema deserves to have this edge. Big screen and projection itself is much better than LCD screens.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 12:39 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Well, I suspect this and find it poor and nasty (but business is business). This is why I have limited respect to big places. Big nowadays doesn't mean good at all.
At the end it's about final claim- if it says graded in P3 than I expect "pure" P3 not a convert from Rec.709.
Cinema deserves to have this edge. Big screen and projection itself is much better than LCD screens.



however, if I'm doing a black and white movie, i can be in xyz, it will still look identical.

if you're not touching the edges of the 709 gamut, it will look identical.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 1:21 am

Yes, but it won't have P3 gamut, so those possible additional colors won't be there.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 2:58 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Yes, but it won't have P3 gamut, so those possible additional colors won't be there.

Tell me again why you need the additional gamut space of P3. It's not as big a difference as you might think:

Image

There is a big difference between Rec709 and Rec2020. For moving from Rec709 -> P3, I think as long as you can do a trim pass in a P3 environment, it'll be fine.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 4:53 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Yes, but it won't have P3 gamut, so those possible additional colors won't be there.


sorry, that statement is not true.

if none of the color in your final color correction exceed 709 gamut, i.è. none of the boundaries is touched, the image will look IDENTICAL in p3, and after convert to xyz it will look IDENTICAL during theatrical exposition. regardless of the gamut.

i might also argue that giving the same 32 bit float math and the same dcdm file (tiff 16 bit) the quantization will will be less in the first case (better dynamic distribution). but it is more academic difference that anything else.

edit: the extreme white point will be not exactly mapped when you convert from xtz back to p3 due to different chromaticities
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 9:44 am

waltervolpatto wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Yes, but it won't have P3 gamut, so those possible additional colors won't be there.


sorry, that statement is not true.

if none of the color in your final color correction exceed 709 gamut, i.è. none of the boundaries is touched, the image will look IDENTICAL in p3, and after convert to xyz it will look IDENTICAL during theatrical exposition. regardless of the gamut.


This is the whole point of grading in P3, that they do exceed Rec.709 gamut. These 26% (or whatever number is) more colors is the advantage of P3 masters. Projectors can display these colors, which is not always the case for home screens (new TVs are very close).

What is the point to work in P3 than other then this? What is the point wasting so much money for P3 grading monitor or projector as you could as well stick to Rec.709?
What is the point using P3 for HDR?

Proper DCI masters which went through Rec.709 to P3 conversion are just victims of saving money and cheating (same as 4K masters made of 2K sources). This shows the state of industry :)
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 9:52 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Yes, but it won't have P3 gamut, so those possible additional colors won't be there.

Tell me again why you need the additional gamut space of P3. It's not as big a difference as you might think:

Image

There is a big difference between Rec709 and Rec2020. For moving from Rec709 -> P3, I think as long as you can do a trim pass in a P3 environment, it'll be fine.


This is the difference between cinema and home, that edge for premium experience.

Do they really let it happen on big movies? I thought big movies are graded on projectors, so P3 is not a problem and it's a default choice.
I have hard time to believe that e.g. Transformers DCI was a Rec.709 to P3 conversion, but in the same time I expect it to happen on many other movies.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 10:02 am

I think you need to understand that a bigger gamut doesn't mean more "professional" or cinelike.
If your target colors are within REC709, you don't need to grade in P3 as it doesn't make a difference, but introduces a whole bunch of other shortcomings.

I'd stay in 709 for grading and make a trim pass in cinema if the money is there.
Grading P3 on a small monitor environmemt doesn't make much sense to me.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 10:14 am

Problem is that we are not talking about home screen or users, but big productions.
You all keep saying: "when you stay within Rec.709 colors". I don't want to stay within Rec.709 colors- I want P3 colors and real P3 master for cinema :) Nothing to do with more cinematic look or being more professional.

It's not about more colors itself, but having ability to use more colors (you master maybe dull and really color less), but you did grade in native P3 environment. If you do very milky etc. master this may actually like additional colors- it doesn't have to be crazy saturated master.

This is from other forum:
"For instance, for theatrical releases that usually means a DCI-P3 primary grade on a projector, then a "home video trim pass" for blu-ray, dvd, and streaming."

this is what I expect (and believed that it's the case) when I go to cinema and I still believe that this is the case for big movies.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 2:07 pm

If you really want DCI-P3 grading environment, you need a grading theatre.
Everything else will not help.

I also know the CG318. It's a very nice computer monitor, that can be very accurately calibrated to REC709.
While it can also be calibrated for P3, the environment for theatrical grading is completely different, than in your traditional REC709 studio.

I've done several theatrical releases on 709 and never missed something on the color palette.
It can be very helpful to use P3 extended gamut, but not as a standard.
You should check yourself what kind of colors you get with P3, then you'll understand.

There's nothing to say against somebody who wants to grade in P3 color space on his monitor.
But you need to know the shortcomings even better and shouldn't recommend this for everyone!
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 2:23 pm

Grading will feel different on projector compared to LCD monitor regrades if it's Rec.709 or P3, so this is not a valid argument. Projectors have simply different look due to screen size and overall technology differences.

There is nothing amazing or crazy about P3. If you have P3 capable monitor you may swell use it, specially when these days even consumer TVs are getting there. What are you losing?
As you said- for big movies grading is done to the projectors, not LCD/OLED reference monitors. For mid range projects- you have to choose. I agree that having projector for at last validation is good if you know project is going to be projected in cinemas.
Then you have enthusiast with their projects and I don't see a reason why they can't grade to P3 even if their work is going to be seen on consumer TVs. Quite often they have high-end TVs, so they may swell do it for themselves.
How long are you going to be capped by very old Rec.709? It's not old days when you had 1 grading monitor (costing fortune) capable of actually displaying P3. Today this is getting way more affordable and I don't see a reason why people can't use it. Maybe big audios wants you to think this is something out of this world as they slowly loosing any advantage to possibilities of knowledgeable guy at home :)
I'm not saying that everyone should jump and use P3 for everything, but if you have good sources and know that your project is going to be shown with display technology capable of P3 then why not to use it (if you have P3 capable monitor).

Do you really think that "old" Dolby is much better than this new Eizo? Yes, it may display 100% of P3, but this is not a deal breaker when it comes to final look on the screen.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:51 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 2:25 pm

Erik Wittbusch wrote:I've done several theatrical releases on 709 and never missed something on the color palette.
It can be very helpful to use P3 extended gamut, but not as a standard.
You should check yourself what kind of colors you get with P3, then you'll understand.


And what was decision behind use of Rec.709, not P3. 90% money?
What is so special about P3 compared to Rec.709 which can go wrong? It's exactly the same thing, just bigger gamut.
Are you not "scared" to grade to Rec.709 on LCD monitor and then see it in cinema? If your monitor can really do 98% of P3 I can't really see this looking worse in cinema than grade on the same monitor to Rec.709 watched in the same cinema. In both cases it will feel different than on LCD monitor anyway. It's not like P3 masters look different in cinema, but Rec.709 don't :)

Only valid argument is that with P3 you may actually not gain that much more, so you may as well stick with "easier" Rec.709.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 3:30 pm

If you think P3 ist the same as REC709 you're easily wrong.

DCI-P3 is a color space for projection.
It uses different gamma, white-point and is not meant for viewing on monitors.

As I said before: Do what you think it's right. No problem here.
But be sure to recheck in theatrical projection environment before finishing.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 3:37 pm

Erik Wittbusch wrote:If you think P3 ist the same as REC709 you're easily wrong.

DCI-P3 is a color space for projection.
It uses different gamma, white-point and is not meant for viewing on monitors.

As I said before: Do what you think it's right. No problem here.
But be sure to recheck in theatrical projection environment before finishing.


DCI-P3 is specific to cinema. P3 gamut is not necessarily.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 3:38 pm

The TO wants to deliver for DCP what means for projection...
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 3:39 pm

That's fine, but he also has monitor which can properly display DCI-P3 with correct white point and gamma.

Do you think that grading on Eizo in Rec.709 and then converting to DCP is going to look better than grading to P3 on the same Eizo monitor? For me both are prone to the same "issue", that is LCD v projection look difference. You can't escape from this problem just by using Rec.709.
Key point here is to have proper setup which can actually display DCI-P3 accurately, which Eizo is capable of. Fact that it will look different when projected means not much because Rec.709 grading will also look different.

Sorry, but Rec.709 route advantage does not convince me at all assuming my monitor is really P3 capable (which can be measured and validated).

I've seen Sony BVM 4K next to calibrated projector and they were matching quite well. Image felt quite different though mainly because of Sony's pure blacks.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 9:33 pm

Most of the footage is interviews and some exteriors so I doubt I really "must have" DCI-P3 as all skin tones are contained within 709. Comparing 709 with DCI-P3 on the Eizo I can tell that the DCI does have smoother roll off in the luminance channel and a generally more pleasing/softer image (again, I think because it is less "contrasty" than 709) but I understand there's no necessity in grading in that environment especially considering what the source material is and what is the look we are pursuing (Realism.)

Working in 709 opens up the wide world of LUTs, which are missing in P3 (Waiting for Koji to release P3 versions.)

Both sides of the argument are actually valid. The real world and the specificity of my project don't require P3, but on paper it should give "more better" results.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 9:38 pm

I'm not saying that you should use P3 for everything, but you can if there is such a opportunity. I think your monitor is good enough, specially when you calibrate it and verify against DCI projector.

I just don't agree with argument that you shouldn't really touch P3, because it strictly needs projector.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 10:49 pm

Erik Wittbusch wrote:If you really want DCI-P3 grading environment, you need a grading theatre.
Everything else will not help.


If this would be strict real world requirement for any P3 project then it would mean that Dolby monitor is waste of money and paying huge $K for P3 support in any LCD/OLED monitor simply makes no sense at all.

Yet industry is happy to grade on the same LCD monitor in Rec.709 and forget about difference between LCD look and projection. Somehow difference in look for Rec.709 master is ok, but for P3 is not. Go figure :)

These arguments are far from convincing me, even if I know that in reality it's bit more complicated because there is such a thing like money :)

P3 is coming out of cinema (next year TVs will have most likely 100% coverage), so grading in P3 (P3 as gamut) is going be more and more common.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 11:05 pm

I think grading in rec 2020 will be more common. I don't think grading in p3 will be.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 11:51 pm

Paul Provost wrote:I think grading in rec 2020 will be more common. I don't think grading in p3 will be.


Yes, but you will be targeting P3 gamut (not whole Rec.2020) like it's happening now for HDR masters. Rec.2020 gamut is still far away.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostThu Mar 09, 2017 4:40 pm

I certainly think you should use P3 gamut if you're destination is cinema. I think the gamma and white point are the main culprits of creating a difficult situation of transferring between viewing environments.

Provided the DCP creation process can take into account the grading environment, you should easily be able to get close to exactly the look you saw while grading.

Some monitors force themselves into "DCI" mode with a 2.6 gamma at 48 nits attempting to hit a non-native DCI white point, which would be inappropriate unless your grading suite is nearly pitch black.
IMO it'd be best to grade in P3 gamut, D65 white point, and 2.2 gamma at 100 nits. Then allow the DCP software to take care of converting to DCDM-X'Y'Z' gamma 2.6
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostThu Mar 09, 2017 11:33 pm

The original question is actually pretty nuanced.
If you have the correct workflow, you will not have to worry (much)about your monitoring device.

By correct workflow I mean that you do your color operations on the log material, ie before the viewing lut. Working on the Log material gives you full access to the entire range of captured colors and dynamic range as you grade.

You can then on output change the lut to the ARRI p3 version, after doing the grading. Working in that way makes the output devices less of an issue. If you are paranoid that ARRI can not correctly map their camera to a particular display then you can do a theatrical watch though to be certain that your work is being represented.

Some people are talking about color gamut, luminance and viewing environment as if they can be treated independently. P3 mastering is difficult to make work on a monitor. First off it needs a true 2000:1 or better contrast ratio. The reason it needs it is that the luminance for P3 display is 48 nits. This is really a standard and not a recommendation. The viewing environment is a dark theater or equivalent. This is because the main luminance is dim. This is the reality for a theatrical environment. The final part is the P3 gamut.

All of this adds up to making it really difficult to do a p3 grade on a monitor. The Sony BVM's do good jobs with being P3 mastering compliant and not a whole lot of other displays can tick off all the boxes to do it correctly.

Grading at 100 nits is not standard P3, Grading at 98% of P3 is not P3 mastering , grading in a dim, but not dark room is not p3 mastering. Try not to be in the position of almost meeting the deliverable requirements. If you are using P3 to the DCI 1.2 specifications you are rolling your own color space. This just making stuff up and not fulfilling a technical requirement to meet a standard. It can be fine, but you really need to know what you are doing as does EVERYONE else on a project.

When adjusted for proper viewing environment, the differences between p3 and rec709. That is why rec709 masters are trims of P3 masters at worst and vice versa. Most of the time direct conversions get approved after a watch through. that isn't even getting to the part of the discussion where there are few movies that use color spaces larger than Rec709.

If given a choice it is far better to use a calibrated standard rec709 grading environment and having the DCP encoded with the correct conversion. If P3 grading a technical requirement for your job then flip the switches and get paid, or rent the proper gear and take the hit to the bottom line.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 1:09 am

These are better arguments and actually prove (at least partially) that P3 (more DCI-P3) in LCD monitors is waste of money :) Why would studios buy those overpriced Dolby monitors then? For what? Very accurate Rec.709 ? Dolby kept talking about P3 support, which in reality is not very useful. If BVM is just workable than Dolby can be only worse (as for me Sony blows it by miles).
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 1:16 am

Note that Mr. Slomka is the chief color scientist for Fotokem in Burbank, so I wouldn't argue with him -- he knows what he's talking about.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 1:16 am

well one advantage to the old dolby in rec 709 was the size (42") at very accurate 709 so one monitor could serve both colorist and client. and you could check a drp in p3 for confidence somewhat.
but those are discontinued and the new dolby are for HDR.

and grading in (very good) 709 for conversion to p3 is such accepted practice now as to become basically a standard
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 1:19 am

Marc Wielage wrote:Note that Mr. Slomka is the chief color scientist for Fotokem in Burbank, so I wouldn't argue with him -- he knows what he's talking about.


Well, you can tell although I'm still bit "not convinced" about Rec.709 "good translation" from LCD monitor to the projector.
I can always argue, but don't have good arguments, so it's bit pointless :)
I did "argue" with color scientist from different company about D65 white point and why everyone keeps referring back to CRT look and it was fun:)
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 1:33 am

in my experience it's very good. drawback is judging contrast in some scenes - also difficult to judge grain/noise and sharpness.
but with lower budget productions it is just not practical to color in a grading theater. so its certainly better than nothing. and actually works quite well.
and as mentioned earlier, even in a grading theaters, the workflow is often 709, so...
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 1:55 am

Well, projectors are superior displaying devices compared to LCD based devices, so I a assume if you are happy with the look on LCD you most likely will be on projector. But as you said- contrast, noise/grain may bit of a surprise sometimes (specially when cinema is trying to save on lamps).

Yes, but they grade to projectors, so it's different.

If Sony improves viewing angles and peak brightness (and size) on their OLED monitors then they will be amazing displays.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 2:01 am

also films have a very short lifespan on the big screen and a very long one on the small screen, so unless its a wide theatrical release, the benefits are limited as well.
and yes i have been somewhat unpleasantly surprised on a shot or two seeing something on the big screen for the first time, but 95% of the viewers including the filmmakers don't see it. so you shrug it off.
now that 80" 4k LED are getting cheap enough, it's worth considering that just as a secondary viewing device to check for possible big screen issues. sure they're kind of crappy and not a grade 1 monitor, but I think better than trying to set up a home theater type projector at the same price.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 2:10 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:These are better arguments and actually prove (at least partially) that P3 (more DCI-P3) in LCD monitors is waste of money :) Why would studios buy those overpriced Dolby monitors then? For what? Very accurate Rec.709 ? Dolby kept talking about P3 support, which in reality is not very useful. If BVM is just workable than Dolby can be only worse (as for me Sony blows it by miles).


I haven't used a Dolby PRM in years, but it is also a professional mastering level display and can likely be used for a proper p3 master. Like all monitors it had strengths and drawbacks, but it is a mastering level display.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 2:31 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Marc Wielage wrote:Note that Mr. Slomka is the chief color scientist for Fotokem in Burbank, so I wouldn't argue with him -- he knows what he's talking about.


Well, you can tell although I'm still bit "not convinced" about Rec.709 "good translation" from LCD monitor to the projector.
I can always argue, but don't have good arguments, so it's bit pointless :)
I did "argue" with color scientist from different company about D65 white point and why everyone keeps referring back to CRT look and it was fun:)


It's all going to boil down to what your eye sees. Most of the time translations go through easily.

There is significant financial incentive to not require an indie film graded to REC709 to be regraded just to get a DCP. So there was a lot of work put into that. As well most of a production lives in a rec709 space(on-set,editorial,vfx) so getting a good enough for top talent translation is a must.

Other times more work is needed
There can be certain types of material and specific creatives that create a need for a trim. Most of the time it's pretty subtle. Very dimly lit horror films come to mind. Getting the monster in the shadows just perfectly visible is where 2-3 code values in 10 bit space makes all the difference.

Sometimes there is additional budget and creatives use it as a chance to polish shots that they couldn't in other versions.

My biggest surprise was working on Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs. A fully CG children's movie. Lots of hyper saturated colors and lighting effects. I though without doubt that title would have scenes that looked different in 709 vs p3. We did the comparison with the VFX super and found no advantage to P3.

Film emulation shows make the most of the p3 to rec709 differences. When you side by side film with digital, there are a few colors you just can't hit without p3 and a custom whitepoint.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 2:33 am

Marc Wielage wrote:Note that Mr. Slomka is the chief color scientist for Fotokem in Burbank, so I wouldn't argue with him -- he knows what he's talking about.


Walter had the job before me and that doesn't stop anyone from arguing with him :)
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 3:20 am

wait, what the hell is this? only 4 grand? 4k DCI? really?

http://procision.jvc.com/product.jsp?mo ... 71&page=10
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 5:37 pm

Paul Provost wrote:wait, what the hell is this? only 4 grand? 4k DCI? really?

http://procision.jvc.com/product.jsp?mo ... 71&page=10


Almost. This projector is using sub~pixel imager shifting to emulate 4k. We haven't found that technology to be suitable for clients. The color could be dead on, and if it had a 1920x1080 native mode it could be a great device.
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Re: ProRes HQ 422 to DCI-P3 workflow

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 5:41 pm

They also say "Compatible with DCI Color Space" whatever it means (it's also UHD not 4096x2160).
On their top end model, real 4K one they say: "100% coverage of DCI-P3 color space and 80% BT.2020"
The only issue is that this 2nd one is 35K$ :)

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/feat ... ture_id=01
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