4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

Aside from sharing some great footage, I think we are getting off-topic here.

Aside from sharing some great footage, I think we are getting off-topic here.

Not really. My topic is related to the original URSA. I just ordered the cam + UMpro, and now, have to shelve it until an EF turret becomes available. Or, start investing in PL lenses... which I am not ready to do. I operate in a market where EF rules. So, I am really waiting on the turret.

Agree, John, but that set really needs a fast 18mm lens! Wish that was a priority rather than the 32mm I expect we will see this fall.

(Even better if we believe in miracles and can get a fast 16mm.)


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What I would like to know, from a BM representative, is what BM is aiming for if there is to be a new sensor for the URSA. Will it be 60 fps rolling shutter like the Ursa Mini (OK, 120 windowed), or are you trying to get more fps from it? Are you aiming for global shutter? Something else, like more than 4,6K resolution, higher base ISO or even more than 15 stops dynamic range?

https://www.tickcounter.com/countdown/55960/nab-show-2017-las-vegas-nv

Noticed the turret is back on B&H Photo. Now says Unavailable but that's better than Discontinued.


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I'll believe that BM is serious about supporting the URSA when they make a 4K v2 EF turret available. Something they could do right now if they were actually serious about selling URSA turrets.

Gene I don't think that 4K v2 turret you mention will sell very well. They already have a 4K version 2 URSA. What we're waiting on is a 4.6k or higher resolution turret with 15 stops or more of dynamic range. And speeds of 120/240fps.

Donnell, a product you can ship sells much, much better than a product you are not shipping at all. There is a demand for EF turrets given that BM is dumping the URSAs with the PL turret and people would prefer to use their EF glass. They've made the 4K v2 EF turrets before, but they were only available with URSA bodies. The URSA with the EF turret is no longer available and is discontinued. For those considering buying a new URSA with a PL mount for $500, the availability of an 4K v2 EF turret at around 1K$ to 1.5K$ might just clinch the deal. And it would send a message that BM is serious about supporting URSA owners even though the camera is discontinued.

Otherwise you would have to be a chump to think BM is serious about ever shipping a 4.6K turret.

Another month has passed and still no turret.

I do believe we'll be pleasantly surprised when the turret is released on or before nab 2018. I have a EF mount version 1 ursa ..If I had to buy a 4K v2 turret I wouldn't pay more than $500 for it, definitely not $1000 or higher. The only difference between the v1 and v2 is you get 40fps more in slow mo. So I don't see the justification in that purchase. To show that BM is serious about the turret, the 4.6k or higher is the way to go. You can still find used v2 EF ursa's on eBay, and occasionally they do pop up on Adorama and B&H in the used section. Granted on every site I've checked they are harder to come by than the v1. Gene they are still working on it, grant stated he didn't want to give us a product not up to the standard they set for themselves. So the wait continues.....

Thanks for your post robertmanningjr. I’m glad Dan could give you a run down on where we are at and your post gives what looks like a good transcription of the situation I know Dan wanted to explain.

Dan's sentiments in the phone conversation he had with Robert are the same as ours in the camera team. It has been a frustrating project and we apologize for the delay. We understand your frustration and we certainly are listening.  We understand how removing the URSA/Turrets from the web page created a new vacuum where we needed to get some more information for you.

It was a mistake taking the pages on the website down for URSA without explaining why and we are working on rectifying that.

We are hoping to have some good news for you soon, but as I said in my previous post at the start of March, we can't give you a timeline as it is not until we are happy with the results we are getting that we can move forward. Even then there will some work to do to bring the Turret up to being ready for production.

So in the mean time we wanted to put the URSA Mini Pro promotion out there for URSA customers who have waited so long for us to get this done. While it doesn’t neatly package everything up that everyone wanted out of an URSA 4.6k it does give URSA customers that sensor and the ability to step into the latest Blackmagic Design camera and technology at a pretty amazing price.

Hi Tim,

We're in September now...could we please get a update on the sensor. Also will it be an interchangeable turret?

Ta.

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Donnell, a product you can ship sells much, much better than a product you are not shipping at all. There is a demand for EF turrets given that BM is dumping the URSAs with the PL turret and people would prefer to use their EF glass. They've made the 4K v2 EF turrets before, but they were only available with URSA bodies. The URSA with the EF turret is no longer available and is discontinued. For those considering buying a new URSA with a PL mount for $500, the availability of an 4K v2 EF turret at around 1K$ to 1.5K$ might just clinch the deal. And it would send a message that BM is serious about supporting URSA owners even though the camera is discontinued.

Otherwise you would have to be a chump to think BM is serious about ever shipping a 4.6K turret.

Another month has passed and still no turret.

The dumping of the URSA PL has been discontinued. Out of stock, or end of life? Don't know. I ordered two . A 4K cinema cam at 500 bucks is hard to pass up. But boy is PL not a road to go down for me. I had the UM46 (sensor fried). I would be happy with current it's frame rates on the URSA PL. So, 4.6K60 is just fine. 120HD windowed is also great. I might be one of a few who will accept current UM46 frame rates on big ursa koz I joined the URSA camp just recently. For peeps who waited 2+ years for the turret, I see how advertised specs NEED to be delivered.

Grant should have an update at least by the 10th of October. Thats 3 months from previous post.

Gene I don't think that 4K v2 turret you mention will sell very well.

I would have bought it back when i had my URSA v1. I contacted BMD and asked for it and was willing to pay a good price for it. But after asking some supervisors they said no and i sold my URSA. Using a UMPro with a shogun flame now (I like this combo more than I expected) but the big one had its advantages too.

Gene I don't think that 4K v2 turret you mention will sell very well.

I would have bought it back when i had my URSA v1. I contacted BMD and asked for it and was willing to pay a good price for it. But after asking some supervisors they said no and i sold my URSA. Using a UMPro with a shogun flame now (I like this combo more than I expected) but the big one had its advantages too.

And that says it all right there. BM never actually supported the supposed interchangeability of the URSA turret by doing the most basic thing of all. Selling loose turrets. Why should they start now?

Some time back someone suggested that the reason why BM is playing this game of pretending they are working on the 4.6K turret is to try to keep lawsuits at bay. Given all that has, and has not happened, it sounds very plausible to me.

Gene I don't think that 4K v2 turret you mention will sell very well.

I would have bought it back when i had my URSA v1. I contacted BMD and asked for it and was willing to pay a good price for it. But after asking some supervisors they said no and i sold my URSA. Using a UMPro with a shogun flame now (I like this combo more than I expected) but the big one had its advantages too.

And that says it all right there. BM never actually supported the supposed interchangeability of the URSA turret by doing the most basic thing of all. Selling loose turrets. Why should they start now?

Some time back someone suggested that the reason why BM is playing this game of pretending they are working on the 4.6K turret is to try to keep lawsuits at bay. Given all that has, and has not happened, it sounds very plausible to me.

They are going the apple route. Whatever sells more is what they focus on. It a good business move, bad for "legacy" customers. The 17 macbook pros were killed because they were an "extreme premium product", with fewer sales than whatever consumer products apple makes nowadays - and slaps on a pro tag.
Right now, the UMPro is probably selling well. But I really want that big ursa turret for more controlled shoots. The biggest emerging market now is the High end consumer and the prosumer market. The industry is responding rapidly to this new cash. Each manufacturer is racing to meet the needs of this new market that is willing to spend a bit extra but not Alexa/F5/C500 extra. Look at all the new cams on the market. Sony about to announce a full frame cine alta camera - Thats nuts. But it will probably be on that market of C500/RED.

I was searching for used V2 URSAs and saw this on B&H website for new V2 sensor URSAs. I know people were asking about it so decided to share. I wouldn't read anything into it except that maybe B&H is trying to get rid of stock. I am interested why the price is the original price? Still a fantastic deal for a wonderful camera that does 120 fps in RAW 3:1.

Blackmagic Design URSA 4K v2 Digital Cinema Camera (Canon EF Mount)

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1186336-REG/blackmagic_design_cinecamursa4k_ef_v2_ursa_4k_v2_digital.html/mode/edu

Ive waited so long for the turret I'll pretty much take anything right now. I have the mini and the ump so the big ursa just sits on the shelf these days. I love the body and screen but can't go back to the poor dr and black hole sun. I'd gladly take the 4.6 turret without slo mo or GS.

Is there a situation or reason to choose the URSA 4K sensor over the latest 4.6K besides lower cost?
Global Shutter? More or Less Filmic look? Is it a unanimous decision among customers to upgrade especially since there is no going back?

Is there an online petition started with signatures or names added of those customers who would upgrade?

Is there a situation or reason to choose the URSA 4K sensor over the latest 4.6K besides lower cost?
Global Shutter? More or Less Filmic look? Is it a unanimous decision among customers to upgrade especially since there is no going back?

Is there an online petition started with signatures or names added of those customers who would upgrade?

I now have both and there are several considerations when we go on a job. Black Hole Sun with the 4K sensor is a major problem. If we are shooting in any situation where that could be a problem, then we leave the 4K at home. Fast pans, movement or fast moves, then we have to go with the global shutter of the 4K. For me, if the 4.6K sensor was in our URSA body (global shutter), we would always use the big URSA. But people have different opinions on that. The big URSA's monitor is phenomenal and the big URSA on the shoulder is phenomenal. Ease of use, timecode,and assistant side screen make the URSA a better camera for us because we do a fair amount of narrative work. But if someone does mostly documentary or run and gun work, the Mini would be best. We've gotten great color from both cameras.

And I would upgrade as soon as the turret is offered.

Sony announced its new CineAlta camera as "the first" camera with an interchangeable sensor block. You don't have to buy a whole new camera, but just change out the sensor block.

Sony announced its new CineAlta camera as "the first" camera with an interchangeable sensor block. You don't have to buy a whole new camera, but just change out the sensor block.

Sony is the first to show the first user upgradable camera system. BM is the first to announce a user upgradable camera system. If this was a race, BM wins by looking at the finish line photo. But this is not race. 16 bit RAW is nuts - Must be linear. The DR on the initial test footage looks legit 15. RAW is not even practical for owner operators. This is premium cine alta. BM URSA xK poops on it. It's non propriety RAW on non propriety media at sub $6.5K. 3 screens vs 1.3 screens on the cine alta. URSA body is supposed to handle 120RAW (correct me if I am wrong) vs sony's 6K24. Native support in resolve. License free 10 & 12bit Prores/DNxHR in camera, unrealistic release timelines... and so on.

BM still comes out ahead.

Michael, I would agree with you if at any time BM actually sold loose turrets so a user could indeed change them. Otherwise for BM it is a theoretical feature, not a practical one. We will see if this Sony feature is also theoretical.

Robert, did you phone B&H Photo to see if they had made a clerical error on that higher price for the URSA Mini 4K version 2? Is it worth $2,000 more to go from 80 fps to 120 fps?


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Robert, did you phone B&H Photo to see if they had made a clerical error on that higher price for the URSA Mini 4K version 2? Is it worth $2,000 more to go from 80 fps to 120 fps?


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It's the big URSA v2 they are selling so I think the price is what they meant it to be. And no, I don't think it's worth selling a v1 to get a version 2, BUT if u don't have a camera at all it's a good buy

Robert, did you phone B&H Photo to see if they had made a clerical error on that higher price for the URSA Mini 4K version 2? Is it worth $2,000 more to go from 80 fps to 120 fps?


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It's the big URSA v2 they are selling so I think the price is what they meant it to be. And no, I don't think it's worth selling a v1 to get a version 2, BUT if u don't have a camera at all it's a good buy

It'll be better with a turret upgrade:-)

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Michael, I would agree with you if at any time BM actually sold loose turrets so a user could indeed change them. Otherwise for BM it is a theoretical feature, not a practical one. We will see if this Sony feature is also theoretical.

Gene- sony's a power house and as stated different sensors for different shooting conditions, which I believe is a great idea swap out a sensor for high frame rate etc. Although as point out blackmagic was the first to imagine and hopefully pull it off. Never doubt the underdog.

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I do love my Ursa beast, but the company does seem to have abandoned it and its users entirely. THat does not exactly send a positive message when considering other purchases from BMD.

No, not really. BM is still working on the Ursa. Menawhile, this is what the industry does, Panasonic "abandoned" its AF100 (actually officially ceased production after several years of silence), then Panny developed a new model midrange camera, The EVA1, at Twice the price. Time marches on...
Cheers

I do love my Ursa beast, but the company does seem to have abandoned it and its users entirely. THat does not exactly send a positive message when considering other purchases from BMD.

What I do not understand is that the BMPCC is still very much alive and well and being sold by BMD, yet there has not been an update for that camera in a long while.

Does that mean that the BMPCC has been abandoned?

Same with the 5" Video Assist.

What constitutes abandonment?

The language and use of the word "abandoned" confers a lot of meaning.

What do BMD owe to anyone using a Video Assist 5" ? Is it really right to say it's been "abandoned" when it already does more than what was originally specified when it was announced ? I love that damn thing as it is today. Is it not the natural course of a product cycle that the manufacturer focuses resources on new products ?

Where does this idea that a product "has" to be updated or improved come from ? It sets an expectation that this is the norm.

This is of course a different discussion with regards to the Ursa turret because it was talked about in the initial marketing material. But in the case of other BMD products ?

JB

Where does this idea that a product "has" to be updated or improved come from ? It sets an expectation that this is the norm.

This is of course a different discussion with regards to the Ursa turret because it was talked about in the initial marketing material. But in the case of other BMD products ?

Aha!
A little of noblesse oblige don't you think.

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."(Animal Farm)

It would seem that the URSA Mini Pro is the favourite child.
The other cameras get crumbs, if any.

However I do concede that there is wisdom in your logic or maybe logic in your wisdom.

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This uncertainty about BMs support of products could be easily addresses if instead of practicing the Stasi method of poduct management they would announce ahead of time when a product is to be discontinued. Like the big boyz.

poduct management they would announce ahead of time when a product is to be discontinued. Like the big boyz.

Like ?

JB

poduct management they would announce ahead of time when a product is to be discontinued. Like the big boyz.

Like ?

JB

Sony.

poduct management they would announce ahead of time when a product is to be discontinued. Like the big boyz.

Like ?

JB

Sony.

https://blog.sony.com/?s=discontinued

Yeah ?

JB

John there is that and the fact that they inform their re-sellers, like B&H that the camera is discontinued, they don't behave like the Stasi and disappear the product from their website in the dark of the night never to be heard from again, leaving everybody, including the re-sellers wondering WTF happened.

You can go to the Sony website and lookup specs, manuals, and firmware updates for these discontinued cameras.

John there is that and the fact that they inform their re-sellers, like B&H that the camera is discontinued, .....
You can go to the Sony website and lookup specs, manuals, and firmware updates for these discontinued cameras.

BH says this camera is no longer available
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... plate.html

and the manual on the BMD website
http://documents.blackmagicdesign.com/C ... Manual.pdf


Gene what you actually said is this....

Stasi method of poduct management they would announce ahead of time when a product is to be discontinued. Like the big boyz.

But really, no one "announces" a camera is about to go EOL. You're wrong. And yet that's the imaginary standard you're holding BMD to.

BH Photo listing a camera as discontinued is not the same as Sony announcing ahead of time that a camera is about to be discontinued.

JB

This uncertainty about BMs support of products could be easily addresses if instead of practicing the Stasi method of poduct management they would announce ahead of time when a product is to be discontinued. Like the big boyz.

Canon counts as one of the "big boyz" and their handling of the 1DC, as one example, is nothing to aspire to. They EOL'd that camera and stopped firmware development 9 months after launch with nary a word.

Yep, no one in the business of making money from a product, is going to kill sales by announcing their going to discontinue that product next week, month or even year! They just quietly stop making it and keep selling until inventory is gone, then, maybe, say it is no longer available long afterwards.
Cheers

So we hear nothing from BM on the availability of loose V2 turrets because they want to dump non-existent stock?

So be that as it may regarding announcing discontinued product, Sony does eventually communicate it, and they show it on their websites even though they are marked "discontinued".

Yes, after existing stock us gone. I was referring to advance notice I'd discontinuing a camera or?

Does anyone know, Tim for example, when the next round of sensor testing is supposed to happen for the ursa? BM said before that they received one each quarter, surely that was a quarter ago by now?
I love my mini and ump more and more with every shoot and Im getting traction on using them on both BBC and Nat geo shoots where previously they were using amiras and f55. But eit would be amazing to have the big body on some of those shoots, it's annoying having people fiddling around in my ear when the camera's on the shoulder, instead of them being able to access controls or see levels on the other side.

I do love my Ursa beast, but the company does seem to have abandoned it and its users entirely. THat does not exactly send a positive message when considering other purchases from BMD.

What I do not understand is that the BMPCC is still very much alive and well and being sold by BMD, yet there has not been an update for that camera in a long while.

Does that mean that the BMPCC has been abandoned?

Same with the 5" Video Assist.

What constitutes abandonment?

I think the difference lies on the fact that the BMPCC and the 5" VA are products that have one use and there was no mention of future upgradeability for those products. The Ursa was a camera that was touted to be the one camera to have for decades as the most important part would be user upgradeable and it would be maintained over the years. If they hadn't done that, then yeah, be my guest, discontinue that SOB.

Now, as a person that understands the process of designing and building a product, I understand that there can be delays and whatnot. But as an end user, all I can see is that a couple of years on, they've failed to deliver on the most important and marketed feature of a (not very cheap) product.

Also, the Pocket camera and 5-inch VA have received more features than were originally designed/marketed for, and there are no real updates that would improve functionality, that has not already been done. They are matured products tha do what they were designed to do. Why fix something that is Not broken?

Maybe the Sony Venice sensor block can be squeezed into the URSA. Problem solved.

So after Sony Venice, now this
JARRED LAND: "the big news is about interchangeable sensors. at’s what we are focusing on. I’ve committed to everybody that we’re not going to go and change a camera body shape until may- be 2020" via Film and Digital Times

Does BMD still think it's not really worth while as there's no interest?

So after Sony Venice, now this
JARRED LAND: "the big news is about interchangeable sensors. at’s what we are focusing on. I’ve committed to everybody that we’re not going to go and change a camera body shape until may- be 2020" via Film and Digital Times

Ha! That's the second time RED has promised modularity with interchangeable sensors. They never delivered on that promise last time.
Saying "maybe 2020" is really not saying anything. 2018 is only a few months away and their current top of the line 8K sensors and bodies are not shipping in quantity. Even if RED did manage to ramp things up by the end of the year, that gives Red owners of those new cameras at best two years before Red releases new bodies that require different sensors. It's not much of commitment.

I think RED, like so many leading innovators before and like many in the future, may have passed through initial customer uptake and arrived at market saturation and a lower sustained regular income.

RED's future may be in diversity, the proposed RED phone for example and new directions in sensor dynamic range.

This is heavy lifting that bigger outfits like SONY will be able to indulge R & D on. RED may find itself stuck in the uncompromising claw of an increasing R & D spend in order to stay ahead and diminishing revenue.

I suspect that the future-shock syndrome may be taking hold within the traditional customer base. People do not like giving up on their toys within 18 months or so, especially when the spend to keep up is becoming larger. Only those who are top practitioners in their craft, earning their keep or are uncommonly rich can keep on keeping up with the Joneses.

With the groundbreaking SI2K, the wall was hit relatively quickly. The RED journey has taken longer and credit is due to those who have maintained the momentum. Change is in the air. I wonder what it will be? I suspect that the tech for the new phone they are working on may set some new standards in agile-portable high quality image aquisition. It is a dead cert to end up on a drone sooner rather than later but that horse has also already bolted.

BM has a diversity approach and may be around for the longer haul unless it gets et by a bigger fish, its intellectual property mined out and what remains gets sent to the bottom of the harbour.

Also, the Pocket camera and 5-inch VA have received more features than were originally designed/marketed for, and there are no real updates that would improve functionality, that has not already been done. They are matured products tha do what they were designed to do. Why fix something that is Not broken?

There is one very basic and important request for the VA, fix the file naming so it prefixes the VA unit name and the date so users with multiple units can manage their footage much easier. It's something that was in the BMPCC from the beginning.