Does The Blackmagic Camera Still Have a Future ?

" As NAB 2013 is only weeks away, you may be wondering what camera companies have up their sleeves. Will someone else come from out of nowhere and release an amazing camera at an affordable price, stealing Blackmagic's thunder ?".
http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=59424818320823767

DSLRs still have a future. They're being used in tons of productions. There's always going to be something better coming out. I bought it because I know I'll be able to use it for years to come. Its feature set will be fine for me for many years, even with 4K looming. In cinema, you don't need the best of the best to make a good movie, you just need a good script.

13 stops of DR and 2.5K have been more than good enough for films for a long time. If your film is good enough, it'll make its way around and maybe end up in theaters regardless of the format it was shot on. Paranormal Activity is a good example. No one is going to turn down a film that will make them money because it's not shot 4K RAW and audience members will never know.

DSLRs still have a future. They're being used in tons of productions. There's always going to be something better coming out. I bought it because I know I'll be able to use it for years to come. Its feature set will be fine for me for many years, even with 4K looming. In cinema, you don't need the best of the best to make a good movie, you just need a good script.

13 stops of DR and 2.5K have been more than good enough for films for a long time. If your film is good enough, it'll make its way around and maybe end up in theaters regardless of the format it was shot on. Paranormal Activity is a good example. No one is going to turn down a film that will make them money because it's not shot 4K RAW and audience members will never know.

Skyfall was shot at 2K and blown up to 4K and it still looks amazing. and because the BMCC is so sharp it actually scales quite nicely to 4K (I've done a few tests). Plus the projector is much more forgiving than a typical tv or computer screen.

"[...]The sad news is that Blackmagic has chosen to not ship the MFT version of the camera until they have their EF pre-orders straightened out. While understandable, it means I have to wait longer, since I switched my order to the MFT. Realistically, I will not see my camera until after NAB.[...]"
"[...]As NAB 2013 approaches, there is a real possibility that someone could come in and offer an affordable RAW camera that shoots in the Super 35 format and offers an interchangeable mount. The Chinese are attempting to do just that with the KineRAW-Mini made by Kinefinity. If someone does upset the market at this NAB, my guess is that it will be someone from outside the big name manufacturers. Sony, Canon, and even Red have too much invested to cannibalize their high end RAW cameras.[...]"
"[...]My prediction for NAB 2013 is that we will not see anything as revolutionary as the Blackmagic 3k camera for $3K that will deliver as promised by the manufacturer.[...]"

"[...]But does that mean I'll continue to keep my preorder? That is a tougher question.[...]"

http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=59424818320823767

Very interesting indeed !

Yeah, I'm hard pressed to believe Sony, Canon, Red, and the rest of the bunch are going to cut their high end gear for a 12-bit RAW 2.5K (or greater) camera for only three grand. I also agree that if anyone came to steal BMD's thunder, it would be a new company with their first introduction to a camera in the same way BMD did it last year. Someone at some point, wether it's a this NAB or few more down the road, will create AND SHIP an S35 4K+ 12/14/16-bit RAW camera with all the bells and whistles built into it, for $3k to $5k USD. It's not a question of if, but when. Simple Moore's Law. But until that day happens by BMD or someone else, the Cinema Camera is doing us very well right now. We just had another shoot today for our BMW documentary using the BMCC and it hit another homerun. The principle funder of the project watched a private concept cut today from the footage we've acquired to date and they were blown away. BLOWN. AWAY. And that was from 90% ProRes HQ footage! #win

Yeah, I'm hard pressed to believe Sony, Canon, Red, and the rest of the bunch are going to cut their high end gear for a 12-bit RAW 2.5K (or greater) camera for only three grand. I also agree that if anyone came to steal BMD's thunder, it would be a new company with their first introduction to a camera in the same way BMD did it last year. Someone at some point, wether it's a this NAB or few more down the road, will create AND SHIP an S35 4K+ 12/14/16-bit RAW camera with all the bells and whistles built into it, for $3k to $5k USD. It's not a question of if, but when. Simple Moore's Law. But until that day happens by BMD or someone else, the Cinema Camera is doing us very well right now. We just had another shoot today for our BMW documentary using the BMCC and it hit another homerun. The principle funder of the project watched a private concept cut today from the footage we've acquired to date and they were blown away. BLOWN. AWAY. And that was from 90% ProRes HQ footage! #win

+9000

DSLRs still have a future. They're being used in tons of productions. There's always going to be something better coming out. I bought it because I know I'll be able to use it for years to come. Its feature set will be fine for me for many years, even with 4K looming. In cinema, you don't need the best of the best to make a good movie, you just need a good script.

13 stops of DR and 2.5K have been more than good enough for films for a long time. If your film is good enough, it'll make its way around and maybe end up in theaters regardless of the format it was shot on. Paranormal Activity is a good example. No one is going to turn down a film that will make them money because it's not shot 4K RAW and audience members will never know.

Skyfall was shot at 2K and blown up to 4K and it still looks amazing. and because the BMCC is so sharp it actually scales quite nicely to 4K (I've done a few tests). Plus the projector is much more forgiving than a typical tv or computer screen.

MInor correction but Mr. Deakins shot Skyfall in 2.8k arriraw. Beautiful shoot.

Actually when reading entirely this very interesting article :
http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=59424818320823767
there is a lot of reasons to think that a lot of people will probably change their mind about buying a B.C.C., specially the MFT mount model.
Some have already switched to the Canon EOS C100 or the Scarlet ( in November), while some others have simply decided to cancel their pre-order.

By the way the Moore's law will speak by itself next NAB.
"Roll on NAB 2013 !"
http://cinescopophilia.com/panasonic-4k-concept-prosumer-camera-vs-sony-4k-concept-prosumer-camera/

Even if something /does/ come along that is better, that doesn't make the Black Magic a bad camera. I plan to get many years use out of mine before upgrading.

By the way the Moore's law will speak by itself next NAB.
"Roll on NAB 2013 !"
http://cinescopophilia.com/panasonic-4k-concept-prosumer-camera-vs-sony-4k-concept-prosumer-camera/

Actually I disagree only in regards that those two cameras aren't mind-blowing for me for two simple reasons: fixed-mount lens (hello Y2K!), and highly temporally/spatially compressed formats. Plus they're prototypes. I'll take a 12-bit RAW camera at 2.5K with 13 stops of DR any day of the week over a 4K 8-bit compressed camera that's lucky if it pulls 11 stops on a perfectly lit accuchart. For me, it's all about DR, detail, and as little compression artifacts as possible. The BMCC accomplishes this in grand scale. Not many cameras can say that, and definitely not at $3k.

[...]that doesn't make the Black Magic a bad camera.[...]

The B.C.C. is a very good camera, that's for sure,
but many will be disappointed because they think they will have an Alexa XT or a RED Epic for $2990 !

It's not a question of if, but when.

Moore's Law doesn't actually do us a whole lot of good on the sensor side of things. As long as we're relying on sensors that use VLSI techniques to fabricate and are made of silicon using photo sites of finite size, there's going to be a tradeoff between sensor size, resolution, dynamic range, data rates, heat, and cost.

Bigger sensors cost a lot partly because the compromise economies of scale in semiconductor manufacturing, and it's going to take some pretty serious innovations in how they're made in order to overcome that.

Moore's Law WILL help us with the rest, though; cleaner op amps and analog to digital converters, higher data rates, bigger and faster storage media, and so on.

The BMCC accomplishes this in grand scale. Not many cameras can say that, and definitely not at $3k.

Well said. It's a bargain at $3k.

As of right now, I don't see many people caring about how much detail we can find in an image when comparing between 2K and 4K. I'm speaking in terms of a general audience. They just want to see good content. To them, when they go to the theater, they don't notice a difference. We do. General audiences typically don't unless you show it one right after the other or side by side.... and that'll never happen.

If you're wondering whether or not to get the BMCC, I suggest stop trying to chase tech because something better will come out next year or in 6 months. Instead, focus on better content. If you need to stay on the bleeding edge of tech and throw your money in the fire by always having the latest and greatest, then I'd suggest never buying and always renting. There's no way you can keep up and you'll go broke.

I made my decision knowing that more (affordable) 4K cameras are coming out this year, but I bet no one is going to offer stuff like RAW or high color sampling without spending much more. 13 stops of DR, less compression, and great color is what I wanted over 4K. I didn't want something with ------ color sampling, because it would be the same as the footage I've been shooting for a while, just bigger.

A few years ago when HD was getting big, I won a pretty credible contest with my DVX and people said, "If I had an awesome camera, I probably would have won." Well, we had a DVX100a and spent no money on the film. We used our available resources and made a pretty nice short and won. It's not being on the bleeding edge of tech that's holding you back.

And by the way, BMD might have disrupted the camera market a bit with this cam and others might follow, but that doesn't mean BMD is standing still. I bet BMD will come out with a new camera at NAB 2014 which is all the stuff we love about the BMCC, but 4K and an S35 sensor. For cheap. Probably $5000. Maybe less. Who knows. But the point is that BMD isn't standing still either. They hit a home run with this camera. Just imagine the next...

PS - Christian... your Avatar is my camera!

A few years ago when HD was getting big, I won a pretty credible contest with my DVX and people said, "If I had an awesome camera, I probably would have won." Well, we had a DVX100a and spent no money on the film. We used our available resources and made a pretty nice short and won. It's not being on the bleeding edge of tech that's holding you back.

I hear that sort of thing quite often. I'm holding out for a BMCC because I've found that although I can get good image quality from my Nex-7, it's not dependable enough for serious production, primarily due to overheating. The BMCC is the most affordable camera I can get right now that will hold up under actual production use, which makes it a win for my needs. If I get a client who either needs or insists on 4K, they can pay for the Red, Canon, or Sony rental. If they only care about how good a cinematographer I am, then they probably won't worry about what I'm shooting with as long as they get the results that they want.

My latest film festival submission is a short that I shot with a Canon Super-8 camera, and my favored landscape photography tool has no electronics in it at all.

DSLRs still have a future. They're being used in tons of productions. There's always going to be something better coming out. I bought it because I know I'll be able to use it for years to come. Its feature set will be fine for me for many years, even with 4K looming. In cinema, you don't need the best of the best to make a good movie, you just need a good script.

13 stops of DR and 2.5K have been more than good enough for films for a long time. If your film is good enough, it'll make its way around and maybe end up in theaters regardless of the format it was shot on. Paranormal Activity is a good example. No one is going to turn down a film that will make them money because it's not shot 4K RAW and audience members will never know.

Skyfall was shot at 2K and blown up to 4K and it still looks amazing. and because the BMCC is so sharp it actually scales quite nicely to 4K (I've done a few tests). Plus the projector is much more forgiving than a typical tv or computer screen.

MInor correction but Mr. Deakins shot Skyfall in 2.8k arriraw. Beautiful shoot.

ah, could have sworn I read 2K, o well thanks for the catch. That being said he could have filmed it at 2K and it still would have looked great at 4K. (2K Alexa footage scales up well too)

I have to agree with everyone so far, Marco/Tam, about content being king. Of course it is. I think one of the allures of movie going is that it is very much an extraction out of reality. Given this, I actually feel like striving for as much resolution and raw detail as humanly possible is counter intuitive to the point. I and many others, feel like superfluous details of monster resolution and raw data capture is just downright distracting.

Too sharp, too clinical, and you get a sterile image. Sure there's always grading to come later, but I like to get as much work done in-camera before post touches my work.

Aside from the resolution/specs and of course dynamic range, one thing you cannot put a definitive price tag on is color science. The BMCC color science is so lovely, similar to the Alexa, and it renders to me the most important quality: skin tones.

I hope there is competition coming out for the BMCC, it makes all the products better and benefits us, but I'd say with the BMCC package, it's hard to see anything as paradigm shifting for a while.

If BMD does produce a new camera I hope it will be a CCD sensor. Cant being doing with severe rolling shutter which significantly limit its useability.

Mechanical shutter is the way to go.
Or - even better - something like this 4x4 filter that simulates a mechanical shutter, but without the need of motor and moving parts.

" As NAB 2013 is only weeks away, you may be wondering what camera companies have up their sleeves. Will someone else come from out of nowhere and release an amazing camera at an affordable price, stealing Blackmagic's thunder ?".
http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=59424818320823767

No.

"As NAB 2013 is only weeks away, you may be wondering what camera companies have up their sleeves"

"However, last week, we started quoting a job that would be perfect for the BMC, so we did the ring around, and by pure chance, Digistor had recently caught up with their back-orders and had a couple of spare cameras in stock. We ordered a camera last Friday, they shipped it down to Melbourne that afternoon, and we picked it up in Melbourne on Monday. It has to be the fastest BMC order to date!"

EF's galore, and nary an MFT. Why? An active mount announcement at NAB for the MFT is my guess.

Unfortunately, many of us who've been waiting (not so impatiently any longer) for the MFT don't give a hoot about active mounts. So a comparably priced S35 raw alternative at NAB could well suck the remaining wind from the cameras sails.

Cheers.

EF's galore, and nary an MFT. Why? An active mount announcement at NAB for the MFT is my guess.

Unfortunately, many of us who've been waiting (not so impatiently any longer) for the MFT don't give a hoot about active mounts. So a comparably priced S35 raw alternative at NAB could well suck the remaining wind from the cameras sails. Cheers.

Chances are, BMCC "competitors" will cost considerably more, or have lower-quality color science & image quality, or won't record RAW and also ProRes/DNxHD at up to 220 megabits/sec., or won't include an industrial-strength software bundle, etc.

In order to compete with a BMCC, a camera must do all of the above and cost considerably less. Cameras that cost more must do all of the above, plus more.

Or, a camera might cost more or have very different features, but then it isn't "competition" because it's not comparable. They're simply alternative products in a marketplace segmented by features & price.

Just because a camera can record "4K" doesn't necessarily mean its video looks good. To compete with the BMCC, a similarly-priced camera has to offer more than just one additional feature. It has to do everything the BMCC can do, plus more, for about the same price. That would be competition.

For example, I'm in the market for a video camera that does exactly what the BMCC does (including its software bundle) at exactly the price of a BMCC. I'm not at all interested in buying a more-expensive camera, regardless of its capabilities. Those other cameras don't "compete" for my dollars, except perhaps as potential rental items. It's a moot point.

The only other camera I'm interested in is the DigitalBolex...mainly for it's price point, CDNG file format and of course, lack of rolling shutter.

Since I still haven't gotten my BMCC, The credit card is being put away until NAB. I'll finally get to play with these cameras...and see whatever else other companies are releasing.

Maybe I'll buy a camera at the event...which one is the question now

The Digital Bolex is hard to ignore, and they're going over the top with cleverness in its design.

Personally, I think that the Digital Bolex's design looks, great, in spite of the phaser-style form factor and the tiny display. If it's still going to have an interchangeable lens mount, it will probably be quite popular.

Being a large format photographer, I rather like the idea that they're using for their lenses, except for the lack of irises. One thing I've always loved about my large format lenses is that due to their simplicity, they are very light and compact, yet they have beautiful color rendition and astonishing detail.

The Digital Bolex is the main alternative but they appear to be set at limited production and happy to stay that way. But I definitely dig what theyre doing.

I dont know why people think a variant with a s35 would have to come along to be a BMCC slayer. I love s35 but many of us grew up fooling around with 8mm and if we had a budget MAYBE we could get into s16. The DSLR rage gave us access to full frame but had the slightly annoying side effect of everyone thinking it was the defacto standard.

Theres a prejudice now against smaller sensor formats and I cant understand. S16 has such a unique feel and look. The Hurt Locker and the insanely popular Walking Dead all owe their look to s16. The Bmcc comes in an awesome package and I sure hope it has a strong future.

Let me say this about the future of the BMCC.

Who remembers the GL2?
It's still being sold for $2350
it's a 3CCD 1/4" sensor miniDV SD recording camera
Canon still lists it's price as $2799.00!!!!
If people are still paying that price for that camera the Blackmagic Cinema Camera will stick around for a long time.

all other arguments otherwise should have now been made invalid.

all other arguments otherwise should have now been made invalid.

All that proves is that P. T. Barnum was right.

Let me say this about the future of the BMCC.

Who remembers the GL2?
It's still being sold for $2350
it's a 3CCD 1/4" sensor miniDV SD recording camera
Canon still lists it's price as $2799.00!!!!
If people are still paying that price for that camera the Blackmagic Cinema Camera will stick around for a long time.

all other arguments otherwise should have now been made invalid.

Are you serious? That thing is still around? That's pretty funny.

It's not a question of how much they are selling the GL2 for, but rather whether or not people are buying them. Plus, this is a totally different beast.
Hell, when I worked for a certain university as their Media Specialist we had tones of DV equipment around specifically for live-streaming of events through our flash servers. Now, this is something that the BMD is certainly not going to be used for (though you could, the HD doesn't make sense for that type of market) but such entities would certainly buy a DV camera to do it because all they need is an SD output-- component video in fact to go through something like a canpous box.
Or there is also the whole courtoom/deposition ect... places where a physical tape necessitate such cameras sticking around.
But the BMD isn't that type of camera and can't really be compared to on.
No, instead, much like RED, it's more akin to a vDSLR, where yes, it'll still work and you can still use it, but because of the march of technology you'll be forced into an upgrade sooner rather than later because you need to compete on kit so often these days as opposed to talent. It sucks, but that's how it is.
Now, that said, honestly I think the BMD has at least a 3-4 year life cycle before you'll need to replace it to stay current and honestly if you can't find an economic way to pay off the camera by then and have money left over for the next one to come out then you probably shouldn't be worrying about this or perhaps even buying the camera.


my 2 cents. take a penny leave a penny as you'd like.

It's not a question of how much they are selling the GL2 for, but rather whether or not people are buying them. Plus, this is a totally different beast.
Hell, when I worked for a certain university as their Media Specialist we had tones of DV equipment around specifically for live-streaming of events through our flash servers. Now, this is something that the BMD is certainly not going to be used for (though you could, the HD doesn't make sense for that type of market) but such entities would certainly buy a DV camera to do it because all they need is an SD output-- component video in fact to go through something like a canpous box.
Or there is also the whole courtoom/deposition ect... places where a physical tape necessitate such cameras sticking around.
But the BMD isn't that type of camera and can't really be compared to on.
No, instead, much like RED, it's more akin to a vDSLR, where yes, it'll still work and you can still use it, but because of the march of technology you'll be forced into an upgrade sooner rather than later because you need to compete on kit so often these days as opposed to talent. It sucks, but that's how it is.
Now, that said, honestly I think the BMD has at least a 3-4 year life cycle before you'll need to replace it to stay current and honestly if you can't find an economic way to pay off the camera by then and have money left over for the next one to come out then you probably shouldn't be worrying about this or perhaps even buying the camera.


my 2 cents. take a penny leave a penny as you'd like.

um you can certainly use the BMCC for everything that you would use a GL2 for. and yes people still buy them. the point is if people still buy that outdated of technology people will still buy and use the BMCC. that is the future of the BMCC, still being used and bought after 10 years.

Of course you can take the SDI output of a BMD-- but the point being not all places are going to be set up for that type of system and to do so would cost substantially more than a GL2 hence why that market still remains. There are many markets where those type cameras are necessary, the GLs I mean, and honestly the BMD doesn't fall into most of them.
You could kludge it in, as you can kludge most cameras in, but that of course doesn't meant you should be kludging it in.

...
PS - Christian... your Avatar is my camera!

Actually I took this frame from a picture from this website :
http://news.doddleme.com/equipment/blackmagic-cinema-camera-shoots-its-first-feature/
But then I should have asked first probably.
Anyway I change it right now. Cool equipment by the way.

...
PS - Christian... your Avatar is my camera!

Actually I took this frame from a picture from this website :
http://news.doddleme.com/equipment/blackmagic-cinema-camera-shoots-its-first-feature/
But then I should have asked first probably.
Anyway I change it right now. Cool equipment by the way.

hahah No it's fine. They did an article on us. Keep it. I don't care. I was just super pumped when I saw it. I thought I was the only one that saw that article hahaha

That's the back of my head. =)

Thanks for your tolerance. I changed my avatar anyway.
And about the article that's very interesting.

" [...]And catering to the BMCCs strengths of 10-bit color and ProRes 442 workflow, half the film is being shot on green screen.[...]"
" [...]Shooting in Pro Res 442, the BMCCs 13 stops of dynamic range enabled Flowers and DPs Paul Del Vecchio and Patrick Johnson, to do just that, and still preserve the natural looking light of actors and scene.[...]"
" [...]“ProRes is a great native codec, and the ability to pop out an SSD with ProRes and seamlessly copy it over to the editing system was amazing,” added Flowers. “We even edited on site, and the rough composites allowed us to stay on track with what we needed.[...]” "
http://news.doddleme.com/equipment/blackmagic-cinema-camera-shoots-its-first-feature/

Since BMCC is a paradigm shift, a so-called Disruptive Innovation
by seeing cameras as workflow tools,
I think the only real competition to the BMCC we'll see at NAB would be more cams from BMD
following this new definition which is not restricted to cinema cams!
BMD had defined a camera market for it's own and will make other markets obsolete over time.

For NAB, I'd expect the further development of this philosophy by
improving camera capabilities in terms of workflow and usability.

Realistically:
BMCC-update by an electronic MFT mount and a major firmware release.

Wishful thinking:
an altered hull design with V-Mount battery, 12bit ProRes4444 or ProResRAW (?), HDMI out,
full sized XLRs.

More wishful thinking:
an ENG version for video journalists with ProResHQ at 1080p/50/59,94
based on the current BMCC technology.


Best regards,
Bernhard

I think the only real competition to the BMCC we'll see at NAB would be more cams from BMD
following this new definition which is not restricted to cinema cams!
BMD had defined a camera market for it's own and will make other markets obsolete over time.

BMD has surely been its own competition since last NAB, but i doubt that will hold true much longer.

Something bmd did was either cause people to sell their dslr's, or not purchase a new one. Unfortunately they were not able to deliver en masse, so they left the arena wide open for the sub $5000 market.

No way they are making any "market" obsolete anytime soon, unless you mean their own (Lots of folks selling Resolve that came with their camera for ~$600 u.s.. Im sure BMD re-sellers are thrilled about that)

Just my $0.02

(Lots of folks selling Resolve that came with their camera for ~$600 u.s.. Im sure BMD re-sellers are thrilled about that)

It may be some already have the full Resolve and that others may not need the additional functionality of the full Resolve or they intend to use another product for raw workflow. Or they will be typically using one of the compressed codecs in camera and won't shoot raw. But whatever the reason, I'm sure they expected many purchasers of the camera would not require the bundled software since there are alternatives. It is a very generous bundle for those who will use it!

Rick Lang
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