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Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

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Kel Philm

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Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostThu Apr 05, 2018 8:08 pm

So it looks like resolve 15 is going to have some improved level of integration into Fusion (NAB poster).

My thoughts are that this could require some redevelopment from the Fusion side of things given Resolves reliance on GPU processing. I am taking a punt on a new version of Fusion with a redesigned engine to accomodate this probably building on the speedy Resolve one and replacing Fusions OpenCL implementation.

Edit: There is a bit of chatter about Fusion possibly being integrated completely into Resolve 15, hope this would not mean Fusion would no longer be a stand alone app.
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Shawn Astrom

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostThu Apr 05, 2018 8:54 pm

Better integration would be awesome! I've come over from the Adobe world and I love Fusion and Resolve! Wish I never spent any time learning After Effects!

- Shawn
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Chad Capeland

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostFri Apr 06, 2018 12:18 am

Fusion and Resolve share a webpage, tech support number, and trade show booth. Why wouldn't they share the same poster? Seems like a weird leap to think that a very expensive banner wouldn't be used to advertise two products.
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Kel Philm

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostFri Apr 06, 2018 2:34 am

Well its a weird leap that a lot of people are making.
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alan bovine

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostFri Apr 06, 2018 8:09 am

Hopefully there's at least a 9.0.3 in store for us if anything :)

Kel Philm wrote: My thoughts are that this could require some redevelopment from the Fusion side of things given Resolves reliance on GPU processing. am taking a punt on a new version of Fusion with a redesigned engine to accomodate this probably building on the speedy Resolve one and replacing Fusions OpenCL implementation.

Fusion CAN rely on GPU; quite heavily if your hardware allows for it, and its much more flexible and forgiving when it comes to where you can use OpenCL/GPU kernels than Resolve. Fusion's OpenCL implementation is fantastic, both as view shaders and OpenCL Fuses, its deeply connected to Fusion.

Why do you believe Resolves OpenCL implementation is superior to Fusions ? Curious if you have any data or if its just conjecture.

A lot of people don't realize just how different Resolve and Fusion are when it comes to what types of data they can operate on.
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Rick van den Berg

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostFri Apr 06, 2018 8:40 am

Kel Philm wrote:So it looks like resolve 15 is going to have some improved level of integration into Fusion (NAB poster).


link?
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostFri Apr 06, 2018 2:45 pm

Rick van den Berg wrote:
Kel Philm wrote:So it looks like resolve 15 is going to have some improved level of integration into Fusion (NAB poster).


link?


http://www.liftgammagain.com/forum/inde ... ase.10544/

People are just getting worked up over a bit of graphic design. There's been no announcement, no hints, nothing at all except a snapshot of a poster hanging at NAB.
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Lee Gauthier

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostFri Apr 06, 2018 5:55 pm

My best guess is that Resolve 15 will have a limited subset of Fusion functionality built into the app. Probably a Fusion FX page, like the Fairlight page.

This won't be integration with Fusion, this will be a set of effects functions from Fusion inside of Resolve. It would allow an editor to do composites, wire/rig removal, lower thirds and other finishing-level fx without leaving Resolve.

Smoke has had this sort of thing for a while.
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Rick van den Berg

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostFri Apr 06, 2018 7:06 pm

getting really curious now :geek:
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Kel Philm

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostFri Apr 06, 2018 11:37 pm

alan bovine wrote:Hopefully there's at least a 9.0.3 in store for us if anything :)

Fusion CAN rely on GPU; quite heavily if your hardware allows for it, and its much more flexible and forgiving when it comes to where you can use OpenCL/GPU kernels than Resolve. Fusion's OpenCL implementation is fantastic, both as view shaders and OpenCL Fuses, its deeply connected to Fusion.

Why do you believe Resolves OpenCL implementation is superior to Fusions ? Curious if you have any data or if its just conjecture.

A lot of people don't realize just how different Resolve and Fusion are when it comes to what types of data they can operate on.


Most of the poeple I know (myself included) have turned OpenCL off because it makes Fusion unusable (very unstable) but even simple testing did not show any major speed improvements, which for me as a compositor is where most of my time goes, waiting for Fusion to render.

I suspect the strength of Resolves GPU integration is that it is totally integrated, when you start shuffling between CPU and GPU there is an overhead which is what can happen in Fusion. I understand that they have created the ability for OpenCL implementations to piggyback each other but if there is a non OpenCL node in between this cannot happen cleanly. I can playback 4K footage with numerous corrections and bits and bobs in Resolve in realtime. No chance of doing the same thing in Fusion. I'm not saying they are the same tool, but fundementally they are doing very similar things, applying mathematical operations to large sets of data.

I am in the process of implementing my own plugins using the SDK (for speed) which has been a real eye opener, and I am very impressed with Fusions well thought out implementation, but I guess the bottom line for a portion of us is that the OpenCL stuff just doesn't work and I've got a GTX 1080 sitting there not doing much at all when it could possibly be saving me time.
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alan bovine

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostSat Apr 07, 2018 10:33 am

Most of the poeple I know (myself included) have turned OpenCL off because it makes Fusion unusable (very unstable) but even simple testing did not show any major speed improvements, which for me as a compositor is where most of my time goes, waiting for Fusion to render
.

While I agree that F9's OpenCL everywhere implementation was a little premature, the actual implementation of the tools that were OpenCL accelerated in 6-7-8 (volumefog, defocus etc) were however pretty damn solid.

I suspect the strength of Resolves GPU integration is that it is totally integrated, when you start shuffling between CPU and GPU there is an overhead which is what can happen in Fusion. I understand that they have created the ability for OpenCL implementations to piggyback each other but if there is a non OpenCL node in between this cannot happen cleanly. I can playback 4K footage with numerous corrections and bits and bobs in Resolve in realtime. No chance of doing the same thing in Fusion. I'm not saying they are the same tool, but fundementally they are doing very similar things, applying mathematical operations to large sets of data.


Fundamentally, they're very different. Sure its just all pixels, but Fusion has to scale and deal with much more complex caching graphs, dependencies, multi-resoltion, multi-framerate, multiple formats and hundreds (and in some of my comps; thousands) of nodes the problem becomes much much more difficult than Resolves "Add 3 nodes with openCL effects". OH and arbitrary image channels.

Resolve has the luxury of only dealing with a fixed set of frames from the timeline in a fixed spatial domain.

Fusion *has* to be more flexible to account for the practically unlimited number of permutations you have when you combine ALL the openCL and non-openCL nodes, the different data types and not to mention (sometimes bizarre) user workflows.

Their internal requirements for data handling are VASTLY different.

I am in the process of implementing my own plugins using the SDK (for speed) which has been a real eye opener, and I am very impressed with Fusions well thought out implementation, but I guess the bottom line for a portion of us is that the OpenCL stuff just doesn't work and I've got a GTX 1080 sitting there not doing much at all when it could possibly be saving me time.


Thats really cool, Fusion needs more 3rd party developers! There's a bunch of talented people over at http://www.steakunderwater.com that does Fuses and other SDK related dev work.

Have you considered writing your plugins as Fuses instead ? Fuses support OpenCL kernels natively which makes them REALLY REALLY fast in both execution (the tools are run-time compiled) and for processing. Not to mention cross-platform and portable.

JUNE recently released a fantastic noise generation tool as a Fuse using only openCL kernels, its well worth the $20 as you can look at all the code.

https://gumroad.com/l/FractalNoise

Just for the record, I don't disagree with that Fusion9's OpenCL wasn't as smooth as we all hoped, but I want to point out that when it comes to how Fusion and Resolve treats images are very different by design.
Last edited by alan bovine on Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chad Capeland

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostSat Apr 07, 2018 3:54 pm

alan bovine wrote:Resolve has the luxury of only dealing with a fixed set of frames from the timeline in a fixed spatial domain.


Now if Resolve could deal with arbitrary datatypes, resolutions, channels, framerates, as well as DoD and infinite workspaces, and could reference settings across tools and branches and maintain arbitrary versioning then it might be a better application overall. Heck, Resolve uses a binary project format.

Everyone loves how fast Resolve is but conveniently ignores that it doesn't have a lot of features.

Fusion's fragment shaders render a LOT faster than Resolve does color grading for the same operations. Does that mean that Fusion is faster than Resolve? Well, no, since most Fusion users do more than just fragment shaders. If you want to optimize and remove flexibility, though, Fusion can get a lot faster.
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostSat Apr 07, 2018 5:37 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:Everyone loves how fast Resolve is...


?

I would say the #1 gripe from noob Resolve users is how slow and unresponsive it is compared to Premiere.
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostSat Apr 07, 2018 6:22 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:Fusion and Resolve share a webpage, tech support number, and trade show booth. Why wouldn't they share the same poster? Seems like a weird leap to think that a very expensive banner wouldn't be used to advertise two products.


At least to me, this clearly does not look like a poster advertising two separate products.
Composition, text size and text color seems designed to imply that Resolve contains Fusion Visual Effects.
Whether or not those effects represent a subset of the full Fusion product is anyone's guess at this point.
Either way, I personally welcome any level of integration which makes both products stronger --but which also does not make either product fundamentally weaker.
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 10:36 pm

Blake LaFarm wrote:
Chad Capeland wrote:Fusion and Resolve share a webpage, tech support number, and trade show booth. Why wouldn't they share the same poster? Seems like a weird leap to think that a very expensive banner wouldn't be used to advertise two products.


At least to me, this clearly does not look like a poster advertising two separate products.
Composition, text size and text color seems designed to imply that Resolve contains Fusion Visual Effects.
Whether or not those effects represent a subset of the full Fusion product is anyone's guess at this point.
Either way, I personally welcome any level of integration which makes both products stronger --but which also does not make either product fundamentally weaker.

Fusion is right inside Resolve 15
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 1:33 am

This sounds AWESOME!!!
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 4:18 am

Assuming any of this is true (waiting for an official announcement) I wonder how the folks at Adobe are going to react. This should be very interesting. Fingers crossed and knocking on wood for this to be a free update.
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 7:56 am

David Mathis wrote:Assuming any of this is true (waiting for an official announcement) I wonder how the folks at Adobe are going to react. This should be very interesting. Fingers crossed and knocking on wood for this to be a free update.


What do you mean how Adobe is going to react? They just released their own updates to both Premiere and After Effects, which they'll show at NAB. Currently Adobe isn't hurting from their subscription model, as much as non-subscribers would love to believe. I think people should be more concerned about the grass in their own back yard instead of wonder what the neighbor thinks of it.

We'll find out in a few short hours.
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 1:51 pm

Rick van den Berg wrote:
Kel Philm wrote:So it looks like resolve 15 is going to have some improved level of integration into Fusion (NAB poster).


link?


viewtopic.php?f=21&t=71856
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 3:45 pm

Hey there,

While I'd personally (probably) appreciate that some classic stuff could be made in Resolve "the Fusion way" (like keys, matte control, etc etc), it always sounds dangerous to me when you're NOT sure it won't be overloaded and super heavy to manipulate, when we know that Resolve lacks some easiness with GUI for example...
Smoke was this kind of central starship, don't know if Resolve in Fusion sauce would really taste good too.
So far, what I surely appreciate is CUDA compared to whatever OpenCl implementation I've been testing up to now, but I'm philosophically closer to OpenCL though...
So yeah, it can be fun but... "dangerous"; a real super solid Fusion Connect would do the trick for me.
So I wait to see
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:00 pm

It has just been announced that Fusion becomes a part/module of Resolve (like Fairlight). Some obvious while formal questions are:
1. Will Fusion also exist as a standalone in the future ?
2. Does the license of Fusion Studio become a Resolve Studio license ?
(In particular does the Fusion dongle work with Resolve 15 ?)
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:07 pm

Yeh, I had the exact same questions in my head. He seemed to imply though that the standalone version would not continue as he mentioned that the older versions would not be abandoned as projects can be imported. I may read too much into that though.
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:14 pm

It also implies that Fusion is now CUDA powered right ? :P
Why would just one tab work onlly under OpenCL ?
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:15 pm

One more question is "Any upgrades to Fusion except being a tab?"
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:15 pm

My question too.

I only got the fusion license three months ago, and only really got that to encode prores on pc
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:17 pm

I'm curious if you can still save individual Fusion comps.
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:37 pm

Just downloaded Resolve 15 Studio Beta from the website. Fusion dongle seems to activate it.
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:39 pm

Alaz Soytemiz wrote:One more question is "Any upgrades to Fusion except being a tab?"

I really like the idea of going between tabs without export and import. I hope that move increases the number of Fusion users. Maybe one man coluld do the edit grading and VFX alone in the same software.
But it's time to upgrade Fusion also. Fusion to Mac OS, to Linux, to Resolve... It's all done now.
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Chad Capeland

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:44 pm

Alaz Soytemiz wrote:It's all done now.


TBD
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:47 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:
Alaz Soytemiz wrote:It's all done now.


TBD

Can't wait
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:51 pm

Jeff McGuire wrote:I'm curious if you can still save individual Fusion comps.


Yes, there is an export composition option on the file menu.

Skjermbilde 2018-04-09 kl. 19.49.48.png
Export option
Skjermbilde 2018-04-09 kl. 19.49.48.png (140.4 KiB) Viewed 33754 times
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank god you can save comps!

Hopefully the CUDA element significantly speeds things up :)
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:55 pm

I'm also able to work with Resolve Studio 15 Beta with my Fusion dongle. Hoping that this is not just restricted to the Beta version....

Trying a few things out right now, liking the flow as such, but did already spot some odd behaviour (when viewing the fusion output in the editing tab)... Of course, it's still in Beta..
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 5:59 pm

On viewtopic.php?f=21&t=71881 we have the officlal details.
Yes, the Fusion dongle will work with Resolve 15. That is very generous. Thanks BMD. And also I enjoy to see how BMD knocks out Adobe. :lol:

From this it seems to be evident that Fusion will no longer be developed as a standalone.
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 6:42 pm

I'm relying on the Fusion Connect plugin for Avid Media Composer: I hope it will be still supported...
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 7:27 pm

God save the Krokodove


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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 7:28 pm

From this it seems to be evident that Fusion will no longer be developed as a standalone.

I wouldn't say that just yet. For example Mocha is both a plug-in and a standalone program.
There are a lot of situations imaginable where a standalone version of Fusion makes more sense than one integrated in Resolve.
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 7:44 pm

Got the NAB email today and think it's awesome.

After Effects and others get all the attention with Fusion being either unknown or an also-ran that's not taken seriously by many. Integrating it into Resolve will raise its profile in the marketplace and doubtless bring more development resources to bear as a result.

As with any such major transition I expect no shortage of adventures in the short term, but this strikes me as BMD considering Fusion to be more than just a red headed stepchild. Once things settle down after the release and a patch or two I think this is going to bode well for Fusion's future.
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 9:58 pm

Chris Duncan wrote:Got the NAB email today and think it's awesome.

If Fusion would, in parallel, still exist as a standalone application, then I'd agree (and, let's face it, 9% of the functionality is still hosted in DLLs.).

After having a look at the beta, I'd argue it's the not awesome but the worst news for Fusion so far. I consider it to be crippled for vfx work within the confines of Resolve and the loss in usability as a pure compositing package is astounding.
Heck, even the render node seems to be gone. There are no loader nodes (there's media in, but try adding it to an empty project), I don't see how you can properly create multi-screen projects. And that's just after five minutes of looking at it.

Imho this move is even worse than Adobe deciding to only make PS available as a module within InDesign.

Let me quote from the press conference:
We've done no market research in this, we never do; user studies or, you know, any of that stuff. So, you know, we have no idea of what's gonna happen. We just do these things and think it sounds right.

Well, maybe talking to users before making such a big decision on a product used in production for years (in my case since 2.5) would have helped.

This is a sad day for all Fusion users.
To make it worse (but that's a personal problem) we had big plans for a big plugin suite for Fusion - but that idea has evaporated as well. Time to look for alternatives.

Cheers,
Mike
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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 10:12 pm

Michael Wolf wrote:
Chris Duncan wrote:Got the NAB email today and think it's awesome.

If Fusion would, in parallel, still exist as a standalone application, then I'd agree (and, let's face it, 9% of the functionality is still hosted in DLLs.).

After having a look at the beta, I'd argue it's the not awesome but the worst news for Fusion so far. I consider it to be crippled for vfx work within the confines of Resolve and the loss in usability as a pure compositing package is astounding.
Heck, even the render node seems to be gone. There are no loader nodes (there's media in, but try adding it to an empty project), I don't see how you can properly create multi-screen projects. And that's just after five minutes of looking at it.

Imho this move is even worse than Adobe deciding to only make PS available as a module within InDesign.

Let me quote from the press conference:
We've done no market research in this, we never do; user studies or, you know, any of that stuff. So, you know, we have no idea of what's gonna happen. We just do these things and think it sounds right.

Well, maybe talking to users before making such a big decision on a product used in production for years (in my case since 2.5) would have helped.

This is a sad day for all Fusion users.
To make it worse (but that's a personal problem) we had big plans for a big plugin suite for Fusion - but that idea has evaporated as well. Time to look for alternatives.

Cheers,
Mike


Mike, I agree with your sentiments. But NOW is the time to be vocal about what needs to change in order for Fu/Resolve to stay relevant for Fusion's VFX film artists and pipeline engineers.

Provide GOOD and thorough feedback to the product managers. Its a critical time for Fu.
There's quite few of us digging through now to come up with ways to make this a good thing for Fusion users.
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Michael Wolf

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 10:31 pm

Theodor Groeneboom wrote:Mike, I agree with your sentiments. But NOW is the time to be vocal about what needs to change in order for Fu/Resolve to stay relevant for Fusion's VFX film artists and pipeline engineers.

I did: Keep the standalone as well as the standalone node.

I was going to elaborate of what's wrong with the integration, but word from the show floor is that it will continue as a standalone (here's to hoping that it's true).

It would have been nice to read that here. ;)

Cheers,
Mike
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http://www.db-w.com
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Kristof Indeherberge

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 5:55 am

Michael Wolf wrote:Well, maybe talking to users before making such a big decision on a product used in production for years (in my case since 2.5) would have helped.

This is a sad day for all Fusion users.
To make it worse (but that's a personal problem) we had big plans for a big plugin suite for Fusion - but that idea has evaporated as well. Time to look for alternatives.

Cheers,
Mike


Exactly! It saddens me that stunts like this make a developer stop working on a toolset. Just look at the plugins available for Fusion. Not that many, right? I wonder why.

Why now, Theo? Haven't you said that before? Things that needed fixing were being pushed back because of this release. Something that most Fusion users don't have a need for? How is that logical and how does that build trust?

A Python API. A working and stable release on all platforms. A roadmap. Multi-channel workflow. A bug tracking system. More builds for us to try out...
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Frank Feijen

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 9:25 am

Doesn't it feels a bit like Smoke?
I feel that it might become something quite useable, but there's still a lot of development to be done...

Also: yesterday I could download resolve free and resolve studio, today the studio-version has to be bought?
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Resolve 15 to contain Fusion Visual Effects (NAB)

PostTue Apr 10, 2018 4:23 pm


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