Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

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Wayne Steven

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 18, 2018 3:59 pm

So, there is nearly another couple of hours down the drain.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 18, 2018 4:17 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:RED is making a few cameras. They are making consumer level cameras for their new 4V platform, and they have a 4V camera incorporated into the new RED phone.


I think you're right that this is what the Red + Foxconn deal is about.

There is later going to be possibly a 6K or 8K add-on "cinema module" which is likely what Foxconn is making.


I'm expecting 4K or 5K for the cinema module, and 6K or 8K only for the holographic imaging that might require multiple concurrent modules, and the phone may not be enough for on its own.

I don't think the RED phone will do well because it's too large, expensive, and not the most practical thing. Unless the 4V format really takes off, I don't see it doing too well.


Red's really banking on the F4V format, but I think that if the cinema camera module delivers good enough quality that it will become very popular with gimbal users, and possibly even serve as a B-cam.

And it will also be able to control a DSMC2 camera, which will make it quite popular with Red camera users.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat May 19, 2018 7:54 am

One thing people are forgetting is the giants like Sony, Canon, Panasonic, etc. have much more experience building electronics.

RED Cameras are not much more advanced in their design than a Blackmagic camera compared to other manufacturers who can really push the envelope of size and performance. RED obviously has better sensors and image processing, but the cameras themselves are often a simpler design.

I have doubts as to how much RED can build a "game changing" smartphone given the experience other manufacturers have cramming tons of features into a small size, and the general overhead and experience required to design one.

Someone mentioned that the Hydrogen Cinema module would likely destroy the Pocket 4K in specs, but I don't think that's the case. It will definitely be good for what it is, but at $1295 the Pocket 4K is likely still 1/3 or 1/4 the price of Hydrogen+cinema module.

$1500 for a phone is too much. You need to get it down to $1000 to be competitive with everyone else. Why would the average consumer pay 1.5x the price for a phone that doesn't have the brand recognition and "cool factor" that an iPhone or Samsung Galaxy has? And on top of that it's missing features commonly found in ohter smartphones.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat May 19, 2018 10:47 am

Red is probably just buying in expertise. The aptina tech, likely with Sony cross licensed tech, has gone to a former Motorola sensor division. I imagine there are a fair few ex Motorola phone employees and expertise at Motorola floating around. I've noticed the Motorola like characteristics on the phone. This is the sort of American centred technology that Red likes.

Savannah. They have showed nothing disruptive except for a display technology so far. For all we know, it just has two 4kp30+ cameras on the back with 11.5 stops going to low bit rate. It is really stuffed up not to release further details. It's like saying, be excited, we have slightly cleaner air to breath that is orange, and orange is the new great. Other cameras have had modules (Motorola again) and you could make a cinema module for that, even a multipoint 3D thing module. There are standards for module/component, and bigger processors, and great chipsets, for others to make something with a lesser screen. Sony could release something next year. With the delays since the patents, they could release something at the same time. Sure, the competition might be second rate, if the competition did it like that, but what else do they offer. So, they put in a lot of effort to do some top rate stuff, we believe. But is it much above what others could do.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat May 19, 2018 11:38 am

It should be obvious by now... Red isn't aiming to be competitive with other phones, it's aiming to create a new content channel. It isn't much more expensive the latest top end iPhone, but it does offer something unique with the f4v format. Red's aiming mainly for content creators with its first phone rather than for consumers.

Whether or not it will succeed is an open quesion, but it's not trying to be consumer level.

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat May 19, 2018 4:34 pm

Development costs for this phone are likely very high. I'm not surprised if the $1500 price was intended for mass market. I'm a content creator and I don't even have interest in the phone which gives me doubts as to how it will sell. I'd rather prefer a quality 2D experience.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 1:58 am

Except for the screen, I haven't seen anything that warrants more then say $499-$599. The screen is likely something like an extra $20 cost, which translates out to be maybe $100-$200 extra retail costs. Of course, to cover development costs/company buy in and manufacturing setup, they might be trying to cover that quickly.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 3:41 am

Incidentally, just found more details on the Facebook page, including links to the red 8k raw recorder monitor, and 16 bit 4k output from the camera, and some clips. Intriguing. More solidifies 8k being out there.

https://m.facebook.com/cinemartinteam/
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 4:54 am

How hard is it to build a camera? Blackmagic seems to put them out very quickly, and even Kinefinity has no working MAVO LF prototype, yet they plan to release the camera in October.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 5:21 am

How hard is it to build a camera? I’m thinking it’s a lot easier than finding a way out of the thread!

Still looking for the wormhole.


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 9:39 am

But you're back. :)

People mistake that, a lot is done on what is done before. A lot of cameras are done on common components their manufacturers have figured out, even camera platform designs they might not even enhance, just put a case, rebadge and change the software, or software front end. If BM had to do everything themselves from the science to different levels of design in component manufacturing, from scratch to do a mini 4.6k level camera, it might take 100 years to never, and cost up to a hundred billion dollars (and maybe still 32x bigger).

A lot of work has already been done, as long as you don't try to do too much yourself, it can be done cheaper. You seriously think all those consumer cameras cost over $10 million to design. I had my mind eye on one orm manufacturer you could order your own cheap camera in unit lots of one thousand and ask them to put a recordable HDMI in and a manual mode and lens mount. Might still cost $500 or whatever, but a mass market version could be done for $200-$100 retail. There you go, all you fullhd people, get that, a video assistant and a speedbooster (for $200 you might get it included) and a shuttle etc. But you could just straight to flash for $200. I've got a $45 fullhd 25fps around, maybe that could be hacked to uncompressed to flash. It's fascinating, some of these cheap chipsets ingress raw from the sensor at 16mp 30fps+, it then is dumbed down to h264 low bit rate, but the data is there if you want to record uncompressed.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sun May 20, 2018 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 11:27 am

You just hide the pro features and they buy their GoPro. You come along flip the menu item, plug in a recorder or high-speed card, and swap out the detachable lens. Could be a stills. The hundreds of thousands subsidize the cost. It's really just a low end C camera for hobbyist students and lowest end. Fun. Let everybody else buy their Micros and 8k vistas, people will probably learn more about the dynamic art of making a image work filming with something like that.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 4:12 pm

It's not that bad. They used to use sensor sizes like used in $4k prosumer camcorders, which some people detest, but I still remember when they went to 1/4 then 1/6th inch sensors. 1/2.3 was excellent compared to that. These one inch sensors are pretty interesting too. Not small but not large.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 4:17 pm

Canon has announced they are officially in the sensor market. They have done a lot, makes sense. No sign of a 50mp, but this is only an official lineup, not behind the scenes, with 120mp straight to 5mp straight to fullhd. Odd gaps there.

Www.thenewcamera.com has an article over there.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 11:24 pm

rick.lang wrote:How hard is it to build a camera? I’m thinking it’s a lot easier than finding a way out of the thread!

Still looking for the wormhole.


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostMon May 21, 2018 4:53 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:How hard is it to build a camera? Blackmagic seems to put them out very quickly, and even Kinefinity has no working MAVO LF prototype, yet they plan to release the camera in October.


Check out the Apertus project. The team is very open about what it's doing to get its first cameras out the door. It's a huge undertaking, since there's so much more involved than simply plopping a sensor in a box and adding a recorder, and that's not even accounting for ergonomics.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostMon May 21, 2018 10:23 pm

And the reborn Bolex...


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostMon May 21, 2018 10:37 pm

Yeah... that was a great camera by all accounts, and yet the company wasn't able to survive.

And then there's AJA's Cion... took five years to develop, and AJA already had lots of engineering and maufacturing and recording experience yet... well, we all know where that went. It took three years of development afte launch to sort out the color science.

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 3:47 am

There have been a few more. I've even been approached to be officially involved with some of them. Problem is, people that want to use you (me) tend not to get the maximum as they are too focused on the personal game and gain.

Aperture is not a model of how to do the low end, actually, it's the opposite of quick and cheap. It would require somebody to do high volume ASIC version to be cheap (or future cheap magnetic FPGA etc). By doing things themselves, like Red could afford to do (eventually cheaply) they just delayed everything. For what they are doing their development costs should be cheap, but still many more times, and more times the cost, of using an existing cheap system, and setting it up for raw. Now, they are running out of time. There are established players with volume in the FPGA camera market in 4k, and soon cheap ASIC 4k cameras. They could go 8k, but there will be volume FPGA and ASIC 8k. While they could lead to lowest priced 4k and 8k FPGA camera, there 4k and 8k ASIC cameras can beat that. So where do they take the system, what niche can it fit into? Digital Bolex had a nitch but got negatives in the cameras. Now, 8k is an upper practical limit to volume sales as a general camera and holographic cameras are another ball game which might work on lower resolutions like 8k (practically wide SD resolution holographic image) but have serious performance needs at fhd and more delivery resolutions. Multipoint 3D can start at 2x2k/4k/8k upto around 9+ cameras. Speciality VFX and advertising (big wall images require a lot of resolution for people close up) are another area. But this is far away from their objectives. So, getting a manufacturer to do an ASIC for a prosumer/professional still market camera that can do professional/prosumer video and cinema filming would give them wife market advantages. But as, I think, they have open sourced the design, manufacturers don't need them. If they can't make money to guide and promote the design, or control it, then.. I would like to know what the case is with this, how they have setup things up to accommodate these things. But somebody like cinemartin could be a good fit.

Seen many things about this side of the industry. People that make a lot of noise in a teacup are often complaining that others are the source of noise when those others are reasoning.
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8k Camcorder under development at NHK Broadcaster Japan.

PostTue May 22, 2018 4:21 am

Anyway, saw something a bit interesting, the 8k Camcorder under development by NHK, who has been broadcasting 8k daily since about 2016.

http://m.boannews.com/html/detail.html?idx=68646

The issue is, that ambarella already has 8k level chips for a few years (latest one is first official). NHK, has already pegged the datarate at exactly what I expected ambarella to move to, 600mb/s h264. Personally I prefer 1200mb/s (the 4k E2 by zcam does around 1700mb/s).

The most interesting thing is that the article says the 8k market is kicking off in December. Years ago I advocated that TV manufacturers should give away a cheap ambarella based camera with each new TV resolution, so people could do their own home content with it at full resolution. So, a $200 retail camera packed into (likely $50+ cost to the TV manufacturer) a $4k-$8k TV without native resolution content, gives a customer something to do with it now.

Now 8k phones. When they are about to do 4kp120, or 120mb/s h264 equivalent video, 8k might come. So, it should be possible to do now going on what ambarella could do. It's basically equivalent to 2x 4kp60 cameras (sound familiar). 300mb/s is probably at the top end of what they would put inside ohobr, but means that 600mb/s maybe possible within a few years with the best existing technologies. That's about as good as 36mb/s h264 Bluray quality (should look a bit better, due to likely increased efficiencies at the resolution). That's 300mb/s h265, or maybe 150mb/s h266 in two years, or maybe 50mb/s redray (but I don't know, has anybody ever seen tests if this codec to prove people's claims?).

Just realised, even a 32k camera is useful to consumers, in order to grab images quickly and zoom in post. So, there is market development for years to come.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 4:22 am

Kim Janson wrote:Why would it be a good thing if we would get the best posible camera at very low cost?

Me Kim?
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 8:51 am

"power to people". To democratically do the best (hopefully) they can with it. Seriously, just more options. Like I would prefer to take around with me a pro video phone as well as have a provides shelf and a pro video full camera. A, B, and C grade. The phone is the most versatile for low level and informal filming, and can be on hand most of the time. There are even phone setups emulate the look of different lenses, which you could use as a director's viewfinder and scout locations and scene angles (frankly I don't see that emulating lenses so well without a properly spaced four camera 3d system on board). Just some advantages. But in website and reporter like situations such a phone comes in handy. iPhone has been used as a production camera before (with pro kit) but I prefer a higher grade camera setup on the phone. It hasn't escaped my attention that the sensor in the things are shrinking. To emulate a lens sufficiently I would look at more than 4 cameras. iPhone is supposed to be doing three next year now. Nokia showed off some zany stuff, and the latest top of the line snap dragon has support for several cameras.

We live in hope that something will come from somewhere.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 1:01 pm

D’oh, the Blackberry!


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Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 2:16 pm

Since this thread has long ago abandoned relevancy to BMD’s perceived need for an 8K sensor, the primary functional design purpose of a smartphone has only recently become clear and that is unquestionably to addict you to it. Whether or not that addiction leads the manufacturers to great wealth is irrelevant to the use case: you never knew that you couldn’t live without it (without suffering severe withdrawal symptoms) until it was too late to say “No.”. It’s way beyond a convenience device. It’s your memory, your sense of touch, your hearing, your speaking, your fascination, your object of desire (well you may think you had a choice, but it chose you).

Now I’m willing to return to the topic of this thread.


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 8:45 pm

You mean one side looking like an old film camera and the other looking or a modern phone Kim? :). Why don't you do a website with a catchy name to show all the faults to look out for on phone images, so people can be more informed (and choosy).
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 9:03 pm

I could be wrong but I believe he was referring to them absorbed in there phones on not interacting with each other even though that are sitting right next to each other, not the photo quality of the smart phones.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 9:24 pm

Rick, competition is a big motivator in doing more. So, phones and other initial examples are examples of things to take on.

Kim, multiple lens camera systems (given the lack of larger format lens/mounts) are the only phones to look at for high quality. Unfortunately we only have initial 2 lens (and one three lens) computational photography systems out there. It's a matter of time. Red multi lens on one of their phone modules.

The less lens the less accuracy in emulating a pro lens system. Some have been 27 cameras, like the Adobe systems test bed I think, to 9 cameras.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 9:26 pm

David Hessel wrote:I could be wrong but I believe he was referring to them absorbed in there phones on not interacting with each other even though that are sitting right next to each other, not the photo quality of the smart phones.


And the many problems with that are? He would be presuming they are not texting each other about the camera man taking a picture of them texting. The image looks contrived anyway, they aren't that young. But people multitask, they clip from talking socialising to working socialising on their phones, and back and forwards. The issue is that they are a bit too absorbed. Not 10% of the time unless there is nothing to do, but even closer to 90% of the time they can. Sad. But nobody here would do anything like that on furums, would they? :)

One of my anti-favourite characters at the moment, is the young intern on that BBC mockumentary on Australian ABC. Doping around listening to music all the time, occasionally looking at phone etc, 9n the verge of stuffing up anything. Is he a Lord's son to keep the intership there? Sort of subconscious cringe worthy character.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 9:39 pm

Hmm, Ok, back on topic. Thank you Rick.

But yes, there are reasons for 8k, even for more than 8k in consumer and some Pro/Industrial/Scientific contexts.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 23, 2018 2:36 am

Kim Janson wrote:There is times when I am thinking getting rid of the iPhone, I do not like what it has done to me. I just hope there would be alternatives, the old traditional phones with keyboard, and small screen for chekking email...


https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ligh ... 2-design#/

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 23, 2018 6:28 pm

I don't want a 8K camera from BMD.
Not even a phone.

I just want a camera, 4K, 4.6K, 2.8K (anyone shot on Alexa Mini?), which is niggle-free.

No FPN, no rainbow flares, no magenta corners, no conking off of the connections, no broken side handle.

And a little bit of low light handling.

Enough.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 23, 2018 9:08 pm

Krishna, look no further than the BMPCC4K. The more I think about it, the better it looks on paper. Of course we are dying to see the new Colour 4 on the BMPCC4K in action.

You know this answers the question someone posted recently about why BMD announced the new camera before it was ready to ship: BMD is an acquired taste, like so many delicious things we enjoy. It takes awhile to grow on you, to mull it over, to appreciate its nuances, to savour it’s character. But once you’ve acquired the taste, everything else tastes like water.


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Krishna Pada

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 24, 2018 4:23 am

Rick, I had my tryst of destiny with BMPC4K. Acquired the taste. Loved the colours, but I couldn't live with the niggles. Shifted to other cameras. The BMPCC4K does look good, but I'd still stay away because of the mount and the sensor size.
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rick.lang

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 24, 2018 5:10 am

Krishna you may not have read another post from today. I’m thinking of SLR Magic T2.1 PL APO primes fitted with their EF adapter mounted on the SpeedBooster Cine XL (locking EF) or BMCC 0.64x focal reducer with rail mounting assembly to steady the MFT Mount on the Pocket 4K camera.

Now that will provide APS-H AOV or better (‘crop’ factor about 1.2x) at T1.34 on that unassuming and inexpensive Pocket 4K. Try munching on that granola for breakfast.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 24, 2018 6:30 pm

Cinemartin is just a suspect company rebranding cheaper chinese-made products under their own name. Did any one see the Skybeam digital cinema lenses at NAB?

They're pretty laughable because they're $60 lenses from Aliexpress with his "company" printed on them for $719. I'm confident of this because the optics in his demo footage looks identical and he clearly doesn't understand how lenses work.

youtube.com/watch?v=FMlz8Fd5q6M
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 24, 2018 11:39 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:Cinemartin is just a suspect company rebranding cheaper chinese-made products under their own name. Did any one see the Skybeam digital cinema lenses at NAB?

They're pretty laughable because they're $60 lenses from Aliexpress with his "company" printed on them for $719. I'm confident of this because the optics in his demo footage looks identical and he clearly doesn't understand how lenses work.

youtube.com/watch?v=FMlz8Fd5q6M


Savannah. What connection is skybesm to cinemartin? Do you have a link?

They stated they got the barrels from China and the optics were done in France. What proof do you have that the AliExpress lenses are not barrels from China.(even nock off copies, which is a thing) mounted with inferior optics). What reasons do you believe he doesn't know how lenses work? It's pretty evident from the, find the best engineer statement, the guy is an enthusiast that got it done for him, rather than an engineer.

The price he is charging is similar to Japanese glass sold on low volume in house production runs, but his in compact. It would be great if he could figure out how to do a fast 12x, or upto 20x, multifocal lens with full auto and full manual, features, for that price. But can his lens resolve 4k or 8k?
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 24, 2018 11:43 pm

Kim Janson wrote:Sure, there is reasons for 8k and more, like 360 video and the ones you mention, but is there a reason for BMD to put their efforts to 8k at this time.

BMD has production and film cameras, I do not see either demanding 8k on any larger scale at this time. Maybe they will jump to something new like RED is doing*, something that would create a need for 8k, that could be interesting.

*referring to RED and Lucid unveil 8K 3D camera that produces 4V holographic video in real time, it though uses 4k sensors.
3D_Capture_World.jpeg


Wayne Steven wrote:Hmm, Ok, back on topic. Thank you Rick.

But yes, there are reasons for 8k, even for more than 8k in consumer and some Pro/Industrial/Scientific contexts.


What an unwieldy looking monster. I thought that must have been some high end monster, but I've since read people claiming it is their prosumer 8k camera.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 5:05 am

When you watch the video, he talks about all the "mounts" he is building for the lenses. You can't just build EF mount micro 4/3 lenses. It's not so easy to build all the different mounts like he thinks it is. On top of that, all the lenses look different. Some have a yellow ring, some have focus gears, some do not. These lenses have IDENTICAL spec to the ones sold on Aliexpress and even look identical. The bokeh looks similar to the lenses as well, leading me to believe the are the same with a 10x markup on the price.

He uses the words "designed in France" because it's not a legally binding statement. His company is registered as an optical materials reseller, not a manufacturer. I'm guessing it's a scam. A good example is John Brawley is a cinematographer and does not directly manufacture cameras or sit in the factory when they're being made, but he works with Blackmagic enough to have an understanding about how the cameras work. If you own a LENS company, if you hired an engineer to make your lenses, he would have at least told you it's not possible to adapt a micro4/3 lens to an EF mount camera. Conveniently, however, the same cheap chinese lenses are also made for other mounts, so likely he's just buying existing lenses.

Even if you're not a lens engineer or clueless about lenses, it's impossible to own a lens company and not learn how lenses work because you have to hire people to design them, and through that process you're naturally going to learn something whether you like it or not.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 10:54 am

Surely it's lack of demand as there are not many 8K cameras out there.
Looks like people prefer to shoot on Alexa, even if it has no 8K sensor + you have waaay cheaper options if there is no huge demand for high-end quality. Now RED became sort of Canon :)
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 11:40 am

Lol! They have done this before. You can't just charge what you like, it opens up the way for competition to under price you like Red did to others, and BM did. So, when they paid down their investment (the official line) they did this sort of thing before. Anybody thinking and setting up costing to offer cameras anywhere near the new price is strategically devastated. It takes a bit to line up costings, as you have to setup a network and contracts. But the niave just see money, easy money, and try to drop in there. If you are not near spending and delivering your investors can get spooked and may leave. You then might have another 2 years delay. Now, it happens so regularly there maybe not enough time for people to get confident to get investors to attempt it. Let's say it takes 2-3 years for people to feel this way. Even if you aimed at 70% of the expected price, Red can just drop the price over you. Existing competitors it doesn't matter much, and they have stuff under that.

So, like the previous time, expect new cameras in future. We are just seeing new cameras under but they're are patents for professional multipoint 3D larger cameras (the tablet sized patients). I don't know if we will see the tip end be $60k, but if not the 8k's may reflect the price of the cheaper cameras or more expensive ones. So, 10k+ is possible and may still present similar performance to up to 16.5 stops like the dragon/helium. These would be suitable for 8k delivery.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 11:59 am

Point is- RED 8K sensor is not the key driver when people choose camera. 8K is meaningless here atm. (even if RED sensor is quite good) as it's simply not much needed.
Repeating someone's comment on dpreview:
"Arri killed at Sundance this year. Canon was second and Red nowhere"

I think you have hard time to understand that it's not "K" which makes great camera. Arri proved it, so BM instead of chasing Ks as you suggest should take their time and make GREAT (well designed/polished) 4K camera at decent price and then they can make better money on it than on pointless "some" 8K one.

RED's need for Ks actually killed them, not gave advantage or earn huge money.
Sony is probably in the best position to make 8K camera, yet after F65 "fiasco" they realised this is not what market needs and made Venice instead, which seems to be good product.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 12:26 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:When you watch the video, he talks about all the "mounts" he is building for the lenses. You can't just build EF mount micro 4/3 lenses. It's not so easy to build all the different mounts like he thinks it is. On top of that, all the lenses look different. Some have a yellow ring, some have focus gears, some do not. These lenses have IDENTICAL spec to the ones sold on Aliexpress and even look identical. The bokeh looks similar to the lenses as well, leading me to believe the are the same with a 10x markup on the price.

He uses the words "designed in France" because it's not a legally binding statement. His company is registered as an optical materials reseller, not a manufacturer. I'm guessing it's a scam. A good example is John Brawley is a cinematographer and does not directly manufacture cameras or sit in the factory when they're being made, but he works with Blackmagic enough to have an understanding about how the cameras work. If you own a LENS company, if you hired an engineer to make your lenses, he would have at least told you it's not possible to adapt a micro4/3 lens to an EF mount camera. Conveniently, however, the same cheap chinese lenses are also made for other mounts, so likely he's just buying existing lenses.

Even if you're not a lens engineer or clueless about lenses, it's impossible to own a lens company and not learn how lenses work because you have to hire people to design them, and through that process you're naturally going to learn something whether you like it or not.


I don't know what you on going on about? That's not the guy from Cinemartin and not the same company.

Isn't he talking about doing seperate lens with different mounts? This sort of X times the amount of lenses to offer (and negotiate licenses) would explain the expression. When you offer a lens for a different mount, you adjust the optics as needed. Speed boosters are one example using seperate mounts.

What is the problem with having different lenses? He says there are three different optic specs, but there could be other options like you mention? You said they are identical to the ones on AliExpress? So, they have yellow rings and gears as well?

If the AliExpress ones are identical, wouldn't the bokeh be identical? Just yesterday I saw some new high-end name brand ones that look similar. I didn't compare, but maybe near identical look. This is how it works in China, they copy each other even, and sell the same thing with alterations. TV's have been done like this for decades. Multiple brands just order an OEM design done at a plant that probably does special ones for name brands. This is common, called network manufacturing as well, which Nintendo always did. I'm actually thinking of using some of those EF ones with similar spec to famous ones. As long as the quality drop is not much, I'm happy with it and can figure out something really good to maximise quality.

I would imagine the French (of all people) would be particularly interested in "Designed in France" being legally binding. They're a bit particular. But this is common. Stuff designed in Italy manufactured in China, for Chinese or other nationalities. France is just another country you can get a good 'local' talented engineer to work closely with. You can get the lens made in Europe or India, and assembled in barrels from China if you want, or in China. (Personally, I prefer to keep money making components local).

But it's true you can get items on AliExpress at Chinese wholesale like prices and mark up and sell locally. 4x-10x the price is reasonable, as there are a lot of expenses and mark up for retail stores as well as carrying ALL the warranty handling. They tend to buy on the basis of X percentage will be defective and simply replacing it and chucking the old one. This is the way it used to be done. If you have got somebody you can trust to deal with.

I guess the guys business might have been related. So, optics materials reseller is ok. Supplying companies and optical engineers you could talk with. He seems to be only just moving into lens manufacturing and maybe even product branding.

There are companies with people running them that know little technology. It's business, they tend to be run by business people. It's like journalism. The most important thing is to be a journalist rather than a technical person. I know, I've enquired. If you don't have journalism under your belt, they weren't that interested before. But you haven't shown anything that shows he doesn't know anything. I guess he is still learning as well.

Wouldn't you agree, it's a matter of seeing how something can be true as well as false?
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 12:48 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Point is- RED 8K sensor is not the key driver when people choose camera. 8K is meaningless here atm. (even if RED sensor is quite good) as it's simply not much needed.
Repeating someone's comment on dpreview:
"Arri killed at Sundance this year. Canon was second and Red nowhere"

I think you have hard time to understand that it's not "K" which makes great camera. Arri proved it, so BM instead of chasing Ks as you suggest should take their time and make GREAT (well designed/polished) 4K camera at decent price and then they can make better money on it than on pointless "some" 8K one.

RED's need for Ks actually killed them, not gave advantage or earn huge money.
Sony is probably in the best position to make 8K camera, yet after F65 "fiasco" they realised this is not what market needs and made Venice instead, which seems to be good product.


It's about.the game they are playing, to get people to buy more cameras they are playing 8k. If they don't get people to.buy, they will go broke. This is what companies do.

Well, I have seen it said the 8k market starts this year. So, contracts for 8k will already be out.tjets, and there will be more. But it's the same as 4.xk, 5.xk and 6.xk, which are supposed to deliver better 4k. I much prefer 8k+ for 4k. But to me 8k itself has some benefit past stills, but not much.

Now, Arri at Sundance, doesn't mean much about 8k image quality. You know the past Arri reliability compared to certain other cameras. I don't think these days the image you 'can' get, is the issue it used to be compared to before. But things linger, and having heaps of modules isn't my thing either. Modules should be less according to functionality. I would suggest it maybe a lot more than the image. Now BM is supposed to have Arri like image quality, yet where was it at Sundance?

With 4k, Red might not exist these days. It is what gave them market focus. However, I did not like the image quality before dragon. But now they have both the image quality you can grade to Arri style, or better, and the resolution, and the TV's are moving to THX recommendations for viewing and that Arri stuff is going to need upscaling. We might not see it, but younger people can. It's going start to look soft/chunky. It's not about the past, it's about the limits we are moving to. To me 4k is good enough, close enough, it's just hard enough to pickup as to be acceptable to 8k. But 8k is a real limit, gold standard. So, there is some use on high end/quality production.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 1:05 pm

Frankly, I would have aimed Red at the price BM does, but do a lot more functionality inbuilt, with no less reliability. Real sellable pro elements. For high end models you could make it very reliable and usable. For cheap it could have less absolute reliablity and be more dynamic, and more run around.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 1:48 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Well, I have seen it said the 8k market starts this year. So, contracts for 8k will already be out.tjets, and there will be more. But it's the same as 4.xk, 5.xk and 6.xk, which are supposed to deliver better 4k. I much prefer 8k+ for 4k. But to me 8k itself has some benefit past stills, but not much.


Last time:
http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/#
part2, watch from 20min in.

6K RED WEAPON provides in reality not much more resolution than Alexa 2.8K. Then Alexa 65 blows it by miles. I would not be surprised if RED's latest 8K sensor won't outperform Alexa 65 in terms of real resolution.
Those quoted Ks are about useless in reality. This is not CGI footage where we can create ideal 2K, 4K or 8K image and have real meaning of those Ks.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 2:35 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:It's about.the game they are playing, to get people to buy more cameras they are playing 8k. If they don't get people to.buy, they will go broke. This is what companies do.


Well- all companies play games, but looking at last few years looks like Arri ones were the most successful and it had nothing to do with chasing Ks.
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 7:20 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Well, I have seen it said the 8k market starts this year. So, contracts for 8k will already be out.tjets, and there will be more. But it's the same as 4.xk, 5.xk and 6.xk, which are supposed to deliver better 4k. I much prefer 8k+ for 4k. But to me 8k itself has some benefit past stills, but not much.


Last time:
http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/#
part2, watch from 20min in.



Thank you! I had seen part 1 but not part 2. Excellent exposition of the issue. I'm not quite sure why everyone is so eager for more pixels to copy, archive and process if they don't make a practical difference in the final image quality for the typical viewer. This is why I had hoped BMD could have bucked the "cultural conditioning" and done a 2.5K successor to the BMPCC in its near-original form-factor, focusing on usability enhancements. As others have noted, the BMPCC4K seems to be more of a successor to the original BMCC than the Pocket.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 7:36 pm

I think it is thr next Camera successor for both Steve, combining bits from each and correcting the errors or shortcomings of thr esrly Cameras. I felt the Pocket was a little too small, scree hard to see (fixed by the BMPCC4K) and the BMCC was a little large for the size of its sensor, and while it had excellent IQ, it had a lot of RS issues due to its slow readout time. Again, this is solved with the new 4K Camera, so we can call it a compromise camera between the two.

The Mincro Cinema camera is still there for a small form factor HD camera, which again solved the shortcomings of the original Pocket, with better controlled RS and a faster sensor resdout time, upgraded video processing and you can choose your monitor to suit.

The new Pocket Camera 4K looks very promising, and will be the successor for my AF100a which I kept for interview projectes or event coverage where I needed a ready to use recording with simple edits, no color grading in post. Panasonic csme upmwith the EVA1 as it’s AF100 sort of replacement, but abounded MFT format and Mount, and it cost $8K. The new Pocket 4K keeps the MFT Mount, so my MFT lens collection is kept in service.

While I can see a need for 8K for specialized situations, I do not see a general market for it, until projection and home monitors are 4K, where the added resolution is needed to meet the higher resolution projection requirements. Look how long SD was the normal standard, 4K is going to be this next long term plateau, and will probably be “king” for a long term.
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 8:17 pm

One very interesting point in Yedlin, part 2, is that if bandwidth stays fixed (e.g. your internet connection speed), and you increase the resolution of the source material, then compression needs to increase for distribution, which can then decrease perceived resolution by generating more banding and compression artifacts.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 25, 2018 10:04 pm

Compression is a big enemy of details/grain/noise which are key elements which affect perceived resolution.
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