SO IS THE ORIGINAL MFT DEAD OR ALIVE?

PLEASE TELL US WHO HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR A YEAR!

I'd be interested to know what BMD is telling folks at their booth at NAB.

(I have a BMCC-MFT & BMPC-4K on pre-order.)

Yes, wish I was there to ask them!

Yes, wish I was there to ask them!

I'll be there tomorrow. I'll ask.

Yes, wish I was there to ask them!

I'll be there tomorrow. I'll ask.

That´s great, please do!
and please, please let us know what they say!

Tired of waiting for the MFT as well

Yes, wish I was there to ask them!

I'll be there tomorrow. I'll ask.

I'll also be grateful if you did this.

Waiting for the MFT version is like waiting to get your food at a restaurant when all your friends are already finishing their plates, and when you ask about your food, the waiter realizes he completely forgot.

Hopefully this new announcement has made a bunch of MFT pre-orders get cancelled so the rest of us can move up in line.

BMD can say they technically hit their summer 2012 target for the EF version since they started shipping then (albeit in small quantities), but not a single production MFT unit has reached an end user as of now.

I'm with everyone here. I still want my BMCC MFT. I own some good MFT glass that will work nicely with this model, and I'm still not sold on the delivery time of the 4K model, nor have I seen real world comparisons of the two sensors. Having a global shutter is on everyone's wish list, of course, but if it's at the expense of more than one stop dynamic range and sensitivity, I'm still interested in owning MFT for shoots where I need extended DR. Furthermore, if the RAW recording implementation on the Production camera isn't even on a July timeline, I foresee using my BMCC well into the release of the Production camera (assuming that July timeline even remotely holds true).

Bottom line, it's just silly to remain in the dark about the shipping of this model. Announcing the new cameras is fine -- just give us an update on the MFT shipments simultaneously. If there are still sensor manufacturing issues, say so. But ignoring this elephant in the room is growing old. If the plan is to announce some sort of upgrade path, or to announce revisions to the final MFT model before release, that too would be fine. Just say something, guys.

Apparently Philip Bloom is asking the question, has BMD about to discontinue BMCC v1 with the introduction of the new models?

Yes i agree with everyone, we need to know what BM is planning to do with the MTF model.

Also, and more importantly, if it is still going to be produced and shipped, I for one would like to know if it will have the original (and incredible) custom made sensor, or if this will be changed to a sensor made by one of the new cameras suppliers?

Lets have some info please. Some of us have been waiting since april 2012!

Yeah, I saw that Phillip Bloom said that regarding potential discontinue of BMCC, but Brawley mentioned that he thought future firmware upgrades, such as implementation of the compressed RAW would be coming in firmware updates that he thought would be for all three models. That would lead one to believe that MFT model is still in the pipeline. But, there was also conflicting reports on the sensor type of the production camera between the two of them (Bloom and Brawley), so who really knows at this point. Brawley is adamant that the Prod. camera is a CMOS, and Bloom clearly stated it was a CCD in his post yesterday.

In any event, I would hope that they wouldn't flat out write off the MFT model of the BMCC, given the pros that BMCC still has in relation to the Production camera (better dynamic range and low-light, uncompressed RAW for those who want it). But given the sensor issues, if they are indeed going with a different supplier for the new cameras, then who's to say until we hear something from the horse's mouth.

I don't understand why the BMPC has to mean the end of the MFT BMCC. Or the EF model. I don't see the connection at all.

Considering the main specs, they are ENTIRELY different cameras. Your post workflow from ProRex/DNxHD and 2.5k is DRASTICALLY different from 4k. I can see the MFT BMCC being useful for 90% of the projects, and 4k useful for maybe 10% at best. Some of us, simply aren't at the level where the added burden of a 4k workflow justifies the gains in image quality.

If anything the EF/MFT BMCC is the perfect gateway, or intermediary camera to the BMPC.

I can't imagine the vast majority of people jumping from h.264 8bit 420 to 4k compressed raw.

DSLR (or Pocket HD now I guess) ---> BMCC ---> BMPC

Seems like a very clear and distinct linear upgrade path to me.

Good points.

We definitely need some clarification!

Yes i agree with everyone, we need to know what BM is planning to do with the MTF model.

Given their track record on what triggers an announcement likely it's still planned as ever, as they tend not to give news unless there's a change worth announcing, fairly sure cancellation is fairly big.

There is no close replacement in the new cameras. The 4k is due to have an EF mount, the next planned mount is a PL not MFT of which there's no mention in relation to it that I've seen. The pocket is also not a replacement for the BMCC. So there doesn't seem a reason to cancel it altogether.

Also, and more importantly, if it is still going to be produced and shipped, I for one would like to know if it will have the original (and incredible) custom made sensor, or if this will be changed to a sensor made by one of the new cameras suppliers?

That's the easy bit, the original sensor, the pockets basically using a cropped version of the old sensor, only the 4k model has a new one.

Lets have some info please. Some of us have been waiting since april 2012!

For a camera announced in September 2012, impressive, do you use a police box for that time travel, a Delorian, take a Constitution class starship at high warp in a slingshot round the sun?

It's a long wait, and they should update you but please be accurate in the wait. When complaining always helps your case when claiming a truth that cant easily be semantically argued over. While September loses you some time its also a more solid claim and still a long time.

I agree about the jump to 4K not being a deal-breaker for MFT model. I could care less about that right now myself, mainly because I know by the time 4K/Ultra HD is a realistic delivery format for most budget productions, there will be another model out that shoots 4k or better with better specs anyway.

I think the larger sensor size and global shutter are the bigger sticking points with this new camera announcement. Plus, as far as any of us know, the MFT models were in beta only, and could therefore, in theory, be retro-fitted with the new sensor with relatively minimal headache. If that is the case, then realistically there isn't any reason why the 2.5K MFT model couldn't at least get a global shutter too. Although, I would hope, given the trade-off we've been made aware of with the DR, that even this would be an option.

I assume this isn't happening though, and maybe the sensor swap isn't as easy as it seems on paper if the physical dimensions of the chamber change and/or the boards/electronics need to be different to work with the other sensor. If BMD has a ton of MFT model chassis parts lying around, just waiting on sensors to go in them, then it seems that some sort of retrofitting would be required to make it work with the new sensor. But how much, and how involved such an upgrade would be, hasn't been addressed.

I for one don't know if I'd even want such a global shutter upgrade on my MFT. The global shutter sounds amazing on paper, but I don't shoot an insane amount of handheld or fast-panning, and I'm probably getting the 4K model at some point anyway, so keeping the extra dynamic range seems like a motivating factor for me to stick with the current BMCC MFT model for the time being.

I don't understand why the BMPC has to mean the end of the MFT BMCC. Or the EF model. I don't see the connection at all.

Considering the main specs, they are ENTIRELY different cameras. Your post workflow from ProRex/DNxHD and 2.5k is DRASTICALLY different from 4k. I can see the MFT BMCC being useful for 90% of the projects, and 4k useful for maybe 10% at best. Some of us, simply aren't at the level where the added burden of a 4k workflow justifies the gains in image quality.

If anything the EF/MFT BMCC is the perfect gateway, or intermediary camera to the BMPC.

I can't imagine the vast majority of people jumping from h.264 8bit 420 to 4k compressed raw.

DSLR (or Pocket HD now I guess) ---> BMCC ---> BMPC

Seems like a very clear and distinct linear upgrade path to me.

More like the BMPC 4k is useful for 90% of the projects and the BMCC 2.5k useful in 10%. Global shutter alone made sure of that. If you don't want 4k then shoot in 1080p mode, beside the RAW in the BMPC 4k is much more workflow friendly than the BMC 2.5k. Or maybe Super 35mm is not to people's liking? Hard to believe that.

I still feel the original MFT (if it still exists) is still a great option for me.


PS. in regards to the comment above about for waiting since april 2012, thats when a lot of us placed our first orders, even if we later made the switch to the MFT after its announcement.

I will point out that after updating their product page the BMMC still exists and lists the MFT.

If they were dropping it that would seem a logical time to remove mention of the MFT?

Why does this thread exist? Stop being so trigger happy. Lets stop clogging up the works with conjecture.

Spoke with a BM rep here at NAB. There is no global shutter update for the BMCC 2.5 camera. Not happening, period. Also not happening is a shipping date for anyone still waiting on a camera.

I don't understand why the BMPC has to mean the end of the MFT BMCC. Or the EF model. I don't see the connection at all.

Considering the main specs, they are ENTIRELY different cameras. Your post workflow from ProRex/DNxHD and 2.5k is DRASTICALLY different from 4k. I can see the MFT BMCC being useful for 90% of the projects, and 4k useful for maybe 10% at best. Some of us, simply aren't at the level where the added burden of a 4k workflow justifies the gains in image quality.

If anything the EF/MFT BMCC is the perfect gateway, or intermediary camera to the BMPC.

I can't imagine the vast majority of people jumping from h.264 8bit 420 to 4k compressed raw.

DSLR (or Pocket HD now I guess) ---> BMCC ---> BMPC

Seems like a very clear and distinct linear upgrade path to me.

More like the BMPC 4k is useful for 90% of the projects and the BMCC 2.5k useful in 10%. Global shutter alone made sure of that. If you don't want 4k then shoot in 1080p mode, beside the RAW in the BMPC 4k is much more workflow friendly than the BMC 2.5k. Or maybe Super 35mm is not to people's liking? Hard to believe that.

You see, this is what I mean. It is feasible to believe that there are filmmakers out there with varying approaches to their craft. Not everyone needs 4k. It's easier for most folk wanting excellent image quality deliver in FULL HD or 2k to debayer from 2.5k. 4K is an excellent option for you, that's great and I'm happy the product delivers for you. But global shutter is a wonderful addition, it's not the life line for many filmmakers.

I like S35. I like v1 BMCC's sensor as well, I love MFT, hell I adore S16. They all have their issues depending on the job. And for me, the v1 is still the most sensible tool for MY projects.

If the sensors on the pocket HD are windowed sensor from v1, and if BMPC is the same housing, there appears to be no significant obstacle in continuing v1.

I agree we can all work to centralize the requests for updates on the EF/MFT BMCC shipments better, but some of us have tried posting in the 4K Production Camera announcement thread to no response, and of course, the 2-8 Shipping update seems to be buried at the middle/bottom of the board since the NAB news dropped. So I think it's reasonable to expect that threads like this are going to keep popping up until an update is given -- especially when all the N.A.B. hoopla dies down a bit.

Spoke with a BM rep here at NAB. There is no global shutter update for the BMCC 2.5 camera. Not happening, period. Also not happening is a shipping date for anyone still waiting on a camera.

Thanks for the post.

This news sucks.

I can manage without a global shutter. 13 stops of DR is important to my needs. What would be utterly awesome is if the 2.5k version gets compressed raw as well.

I don't understand why the BMPC has to mean the end of the MFT BMCC. Or the EF model. I don't see the connection at all.

Considering the main specs, they are ENTIRELY different cameras. Your post workflow from ProRex/DNxHD and 2.5k is DRASTICALLY different from 4k. I can see the MFT BMCC being useful for 90% of the projects, and 4k useful for maybe 10% at best. Some of us, simply aren't at the level where the added burden of a 4k workflow justifies the gains in image quality.

If anything the EF/MFT BMCC is the perfect gateway, or intermediary camera to the BMPC.

I can't imagine the vast majority of people jumping from h.264 8bit 420 to 4k compressed raw.

DSLR (or Pocket HD now I guess) ---> BMCC ---> BMPC

Seems like a very clear and distinct linear upgrade path to me.

More like the BMPC 4k is useful for 90% of the projects and the BMCC 2.5k useful in 10%. Global shutter alone made sure of that. If you don't want 4k then shoot in 1080p mode, beside the RAW in the BMPC 4k is much more workflow friendly than the BMC 2.5k. Or maybe Super 35mm is not to people's liking? Hard to believe that.

You see, this is what I mean. It is feasible to believe that there are filmmakers out there with varying approaches to their craft. Not everyone needs 4k. It's easier for most folk wanting excellent image quality deliver in FULL HD or 2k to debayer from 2.5k. 4K is an excellent option for you, that's great and I'm happy the product delivers for you. But global shutter is a wonderful addition, it's not the life line for many filmmakers.

I like S35. I like v1 BMCC's sensor as well, I love MFT, hell I adore S16. They all have their issues depending on the job. And for me, the v1 is still the most sensible tool for MY projects.

If the sensors on the pocket HD are windowed sensor from v1, and if BMPC is the same housing, there appears to be no significant obstacle in continuing v1.

Not everyone needs 4k but 4k is better than 2.5k. If you downsize 4k to 2.5k it hold more details and better quality than native 2.5k. With 4k I can also crop edges for super smooth edits for all those handheld shots at 1080p but with 2.5k the margin for cropping is smaller. Global shutter is the prefered option for professional work if you are using it as the "A" camera meaning predominantly it useability for the majority of work it can handle without issue of rolling shutter.
And don't forget to mention the Super 35mm too.

Can´t say if the camera is dead
but i can assure you that WE are forgotten by the company
i cannot believe Blackmagic has not said even a word at NAB about our situation
there only one reason for this
THEY DON´T CARE ABOUT US

Based off the way Dan May discusses the benefits the BMCC still has over the Production camera in the video I link below, it would seem strange to take such a position if the BMCC camera was indeed being discontinued. Of course, who knows how the flow of info is going from corporate BMD HQ to Dan at N.A.B., but from everything we're hearing, it doesn't seem like the BMCC is being phased out. But of course, a definitive yes or no would be amazing from Christine or someone else in the know.

It all sounds fine and amazing etc. etc.
just like last year.

But it is worrying that the MFT is not being mentioned at all.

I also wish there would be just a bit more information shared for those of us that are still waiting for their cameras and deciding what to do. I think these new cameras are amazing and Blackmagic are doing really great things for the community, but just a quick respectful update would be appreciated. I still think the original BMCC MFT is the ideal solution for me.

My two concerns right now are:

1) Compressed RAW: I know BM are not in the habit of pre announcing features, but they have essentially done so for the Production Camera and the Pocket Camera by announcing this as a feature that will not be available at the time of shipping. It would be great if they could make a statement regarding this for the BMCC.

2) This one is admittedly a little harder to address, and perhaps more of a wish but nonetheless: Investing in a sensor size/format is hopefully a longer term one with unique financial investments required for each. Are they committed to keeping this up with future developments or will the BMCC format (similar to m4/3) be abandoned for the new S35 and S16 formats of the more recent cameras? I think having the three formats scaling up through S16, m4/3, and S35 are fantastic choices!

Totally agree!

others issues are:

which sensor will the MFT have it it is finally released?
and it is mentioned that the 4k is "softer" than the 2.4k

I'm going to go with "dead". Apparently the delivery problems can be laid at the feet of the supplier.
It wouldn't make sense for them to keep fighting the supplier to fill the wait list when the two newer models will ship much sooner.

?..I still think the original BMCC MFT is the ideal solution for me...

Investing in a sensor size/format is hopefully a longer term one with unique financial investments required for each. Are they committed to keeping this up with future developments or will the BMCC format (similar to m4/3) be abandoned for the new S35 and S16 formats of the more recent cameras? I think having the three formats scaling up through S16, m4/3, and S35 are fantastic choices!

I think it was the press release for the BMPC4K which stated that the mount was EF because MFT could not utilize the new larger sensor. I am not an optics expert so I assume that means there will not ever be a MFT mount on the BMPC4K. I do not see the BMPC (pocket camera) replacing the BMCC MFT even though both use the MFT mount and may share the sensor (except a BMD spokesperson said BMPC was not using the identical processor as the BMCC). At this point it looks to me like:

BMPC4K has an active EF mount (and EF-S lens support) now and will have a passive PL mount when the cows come home;

BMCC active EF and BMCC passive MFT (2.5K) will continue; to be sold and

BMPC has an active MFT mount supporting an HD sensor.

All models have or will have raw capability but not certain the original BMCC will do compressed raw. Until we see what if any trade-offs exist in using compressed raw, it may be good if the BMCC raw remains uncompressed if quality is a primary concern.

The BMCC and BMPC offer the greatest dynamic range and sensitivity and can be pushed the most in post when desired. The BMCC has the advantage of more resolution over the BMPC pocket camera which can result in better grading and other post processing.

The BMPC4K is very interesting in that its higher resolution raw could result in even better colour for the final deliverables when down-sampled to 2K or HD. Personally I am looking forward to the day when we can compare 4K, 2K and HD deliverable results from the BMPC4K sensor. Would be great if BMD actually posted comparisons like for download from their website.

Like Frank mentioned in another post, given the hardware to support 4K, it might be desirable to do all interim post processing in 4K and then leave the creation of final deliverables to determine which formats are produced. I don't have the experience to know how much an improvement down-sampling may make in the deliverables, but even Red's Dragon sensor is expected to be used to create better down-sampled deliverables, not to be projected in theatres in 6K.

Rick Lang
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Does anyone think the delay in an actual announcement of the MFT, is that they have been working on making it active instead of passive, and didn't want to announce something if they couldn't deliver on it?

I can't see why they are silent on it otherwise. You think if was actually cancelled the ordering options on reseller websites would be down or they would just say it instead of delaying it.

Interesting point.

They may well be tweaking the MFT camera somehow, i just worry that they will opt for another 2.4 sensor (which may not be as beautiful as the original).

However, if they are tweaking the MTF, why not just say "The MFT is under development and may take a few more months"?

Still seems strange to me ....

Sorry for the silence guys, it's crazy here at NAB! No, the MFT BMCC camera is not dead. We have it showcased here at the booth as well! The beta MFT cameras are out, I think they were waiting for some feedback from those folks, and the MFTs will ship soon. No, I don't know exactly how soon. Can't comment on active MFT rumors, since we don't comment on future releases.

I'm going to go with "dead". Apparently the delivery problems can be laid at the feet of the supplier.
It wouldn't make sense for them to keep fighting the supplier to fill the wait list when the two newer models will ship much sooner.

Except that one of those two new models uses a windowed version of the sensor on the BMCC, any lingering problems with supply on the BMCC will likely hurt the BMPCC.

Interesting point.

They may well be tweaking the MFT camera somehow, i just worry that they will opt for another 2.4 sensor (which may not be as beautiful as the original).

However, if they are tweaking the MTF, why not just say "The MFT is under development and may take a few more months"?

Still seems strange to me ....

They are likely silent for the reason they've given in the past, they give updates when they have something new to update on.

They shipped a test version of the dumb m43 mount recently (cant recall who got it). That's an illogical move for a cancelled camera or one that's getting a mount change.

In all likelyhood whats happening here is BMDs usual silence on such issues... Annoying yes, disrespectful possibly, but even less worthy of conspiracy theories than the moon landings.

Edit: oh look the smallest surprise at NAB

Thank you, Christine! Good to hear. I plan on keeping my MFT pre-order active, so this is great news.

Sorry for the silence guys, it's crazy here at NAB! No, the MFT BMCC camera is not dead. We have it showcased here at the booth as well! The beta MFT cameras are out, I think they were waiting for some feedback from those folks, and the MFTs will ship soon. No, I don't know exactly how soon. Can't comment on active MFT rumors, since we don't comment on future releases.

Sigh of relief!

It lives!

Sorry for the silence guys, it's crazy here at NAB! No, the MFT BMCC camera is not dead. We have it showcased here at the booth as well! The beta MFT cameras are out, I think they were waiting for some feedback from those folks, and the MFTs will ship soon. No, I don't know exactly how soon. Can't comment on active MFT rumors, since we don't comment on future releases.

Christine, does it have the same sensor as before?

Except that one of those two new models uses a windowed version of the sensor on the BMCC, any lingering problems with supply on the BMCC will likely hurt the BMPCC.

Then I am worried about their ability to deliver on the pocket camera, because their getting it from the same problematic supplier.

''....and the MFTs will ship soon....'' man... the MFT has been shipping soon for the last three months......

Sorry for the silence guys, it's crazy here at NAB! No, the MFT BMCC camera is not dead. We have it showcased here at the booth as well! The beta MFT cameras are out, I think they were waiting for some feedback from those folks, and the MFTs will ship soon. No, I don't know exactly how soon. Can't comment on active MFT rumors, since we don't comment on future releases.

I'm not kidding you but if the BMPC 4k and Pocket Camera is shipping in July 25th 2013 the demo units should be at the hands of beta users now or very soon. Last I've heard BMPC are still in the middle of having its sensor tweaked and JB havent even had a proper chance to test it yet.
However the Pocket Camera is further along in development and already tested by JB and one can believe it is ready for beta testers anytime soon and more likely to meet the July 25th 2013 shipping target than the BMPC.

Wasn't this version of the camera meant to be shipping in December?!

From what i'd gathered is that as soon as the EF backlog started to clear the MFT mount version would start to go out. That was written back in February: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4916

How can beta testing not be finished by now, especially for a product that is not a great deal different to the EF mount?

How can beta testing not be finished by now, especially for a product that is not a great deal different to the EF mount?

Just a guess, but there may be some bugs to iron out. There was the infinity focus problem with the EF mounts. Also, JB mentioned on his blog that the Pocket's active MFT wasn't working on every lens that it should, and BMD is trying to fix those problems.

Had a friend over at NAB ask a BM rep about the MFT shipment- said should be moving through the backlog "soon." Means it will come at some point. When? Who knows, but at least it is not cancelled.

How can beta testing not be finished by now, especially for a product that is not a great deal different to the EF mount?

Just a guess, but there may be some bugs to iron out. There was the infinity focus problem with the EF mounts. Also, JB mentioned on his blog that the Pocket's active MFT wasn't working on every lens that it should, and BMD is trying to fix those problems.

What has either of those problems got to do with a passive MFT mount?

I hope its out soon, I've been delaying things and delaying things and delaying things -- and now I'm desperate.

I'm sorry but 'soon' isn't good enough and blaming beta testing doesn't make any sense. Blackmagic have announced two new cameras and given them release dates when the MFT model was supposed to be shipping in December 2012 and that hasn't been updated. There has been zero real information about the MFT model shipping date for the last 4 months since it became MIA. I'm slightly astonished that BMD would announce two cameras with shipping dates before updating users on a camera shipping in December that has shipped 0 units worldwide. Let alone bearing in mind many of the December waiters have actually been waiting since April as they changed their order!

Beta testing should have been finished BEFORE December whether there were sensor problems on some sensors or not (there are clearly only about 5 beta MFT models out there) and as the firmware is identical and the body isn't even changed on the upcoming 4k version what on earth are they waiting for feedback wise from beta testers? Read any review of either model and you'd be well aware of what people would like changed and what firmware they'd like updated. This is particualrly ridiculous because the MFT model is identical to a shipped unit except it's active mount has been removed!

Christine, anyone from BMD, please give us an update on the camera you were 'shipping' in December, an update that doesn't use the words 'faster', 'soon' or 'waiting'. You are well aware of your pre-orders, you are well aware of your production speed now that 'nothing is wrong' so you are obviously well aware of when you're sending it. I'm personally very disappointed and bemused that you're chasing new customers from the same pool of people and expending energy, time and resources on that without even telling your current customers what's happening with much earlier orders. While your innovations can be greatly applauded, the market in your catagory WILL become more crowded and you will find brand loyalty, PR, trust and communication will become more and more important. I don't mean this as an insult, rather as being honest - you are at rock bottom in those categories for a large percentage of your customers. It is time to start making amends not cameras...

Somehow, dead.