About a viewfinder for P4K ?

Hello group,
I just received my Pocket 4K. First time user of a BMD device and for now, getting familiarized with it. I found solutions the way I wanted to rig the camera except for one thing : the viewfinder. I'm an "eyecup" guy, who never got used to shooting with a screen. I like to stick the camera to my face. There are many EVF's available of course, but the least I need batteries, the better, so I'm looking for something like classic bunky EVF like a classic Z-Finder. Problem, of course, is the size of the P4K screen. I don't seem to find a solution so I thought of something... Maybe it won't make sense, but I post the suggestion here...
Why not offering an option that would reduce the display size to 3 inches. That would allow users to use their all viewfinders. It would have its downfalls of course, but I'm sure many users might appreciate this option despite the flaws. Besides, I don't know about this, but wouldn't give batteries a little more life ?
Physically, I saw the display had a little frame around it, and I guess this little slit could welcome a frame that would protect the display and allow for a view finder to stick to it without damaging the screen - but the would be the VF makers to design this part
If anyone has a solution to offer, I'm all ears !
Cheers !

Their are many that have vf. The kargest are

http://www.fvlight.eu/spectrahd-4-evf-k ... loupe.html

Kinoteh.com

Te smaller ones like lkan and small.

We use a couple of the small 3.5" Ikan monitors with loupes for smaller cameras -to keep them small

I've got one on a P4k that works great and also as a third point of contact.
Also uses the same LP battery and wll run all day on one.
Light as a feather. Really inexpensive but they've held up perfectly after a couple of years of heavy use.
You can keep the P4K screen to 50% to greatly improve battery run time.

Great, simple solution for a small, inexpensive camera like this.

Ikan one is nice and fits 5" screens, but why the hell don't they sell their loupe without the monitor ? All these are EVF's. Even if the battery runs long on it... that kills it for me.What I'm really looking for is juste a big ass loupe, big enough to fit that gigantic screen
Thanks for the advice, though ! I'll keep looking for the perfect solution !

I've done a little research about the available options for an optical viewfinder capable of covering the huge 5" screen of the p4k, and the best option on paper - so to speak - seems to be a viewfinder made by Gridaccessories, and which I think has been developed for the BMCC. Maybe you should check it out.

I'm looking for a loupe-only, too.
They claim to have something coming up: https://www.gridaccessories.com

What I'm really looking for is juste a big ass loupe, big enough to fit that gigantic screen
Thanks for the advice, though ! I'll keep looking for the perfect solution !

Grid has had one for a while but Denny will tell you that looking through a 5" loupe is not a comfortable eye experience.

The other obvious issue is that a giant loupe blocks the touch screen which, trust me, you will use all the time even with programmed function buttons and other dedicated controls.

The screen interface is about as good as it comes and you won't want to lose that real time control.

The small, light EVF draws hardly any power and you get the EVF and touchscreen control.

Expensive and will require an adapter, this is the one.

https://www.pstechnik.de/en/ps-finder-loupe/a-1188/

The issue with using a loupe type setup in a large screen like the PC4K, is you can not see the entire screen when looking straight ahead. Your eye has to scan and search across the monitor, this is very trying after a while, and not always a good practice.

Small HD solved this issue with their 501/502and the sidefinder, by having the monitor window down to shrink the image size to a comfortable viewing size through the SidFinder setup. This works well, but trying to see an entire 5-inch screen with s loupe is not an enjoyable experience.

This is why EVFs have small screens. To allow the EVF optics to bring the image to a comfortable viewing size and allow you to see the entire frame while looking forward, no eye strain.
Cheers

Yes, I though about that issue actually. Feels like a loupe wouldn't be the perfect tool to stick your eye to a 5" screen. And I had not thought of the touchscreen... mmmmh... sounds like an unsolvable problem for now. But that makes the option I mentioned in the first post may make sense. Display the image in a 3"2 frame - or whatever the "classic" DSLR display is, but I think it's 3"2. Leave the touch controls under this tiny image, and let users or companies work their way with their old plastic OVF and the kind of plastic attachment I was referring to.
Question is : is it possible to get this display option on the P4K ? I would say, yes, technically. But don't know if BM is willing to work on this for 2 people wanting an OVF option... mmmpphh

Hey Denny,
I had assumed the loupe was not the best tool to use with such a large screen, that's why I had thought about a display mode on the P4K - and other BM cameras that have a large display - that would only show the image in a 3" or so mode. A size which would allow the user to use a classic OVF. Moreover, that would leave room for the touch controls... that's something I would think about. But maybe the OVF option only appeals to a very minor fringe of customers...

Just a quick update on this issue :

I exchanged emails with a guy from Grid Accessories and he confirms that the Grid 5.0 viewfinder will work well with the 4K, and he is getting a LOT of orders from BMPCC4K users.
About this idea that a large screen will make it impossible to have a loupe that shows the whole area of it, this is not really true. A well conceived loupe will have optics that allow to see the whole screen ; having said that, of course the size of the viewfinder will be bigger for a 5" screen, since the eyepiece needs to be at a greater distance from the screen.

About this idea that a large screen will make it impossible to have a loupe that shows the whole area of it, this is not really true. A well conceived loupe will have optics that allow to see the whole screen ; having said that, of course the size of the viewfinder will be bigger for a 5" screen, since the eyepiece needs to be at a greater distance from the screen.

Exactly. Within reason, the right combination of optics and physical design can make the projected size of the image as big or small as desired.

I really only want a loupe for outdoor viewing, so I too would prefer to not purchase an expensive EVF that I will not use more than half the time.

I just finished making my loupe for my feelworld 5” 1920x1080 monitor on my shoulder rig. I wanted the option to either use the monitor without a loupe and with a loupe. Took my Hoodman loupe with 4” hood riser and extended it to 5” with Coroplast. Works beautifully. No eye scanning to see the whole screen.

I used to have a grid 5.0 and remember it does not have a diopter if that’s important to you.

My mod can be used on the the back of the pocket 4K too.

All hoodman or someone else could do is make a 4” to 5” riser and this issue would be over.

Yes, if yiu make the loupe big enough with the right optics, it will work. But how large are you willing to deal with. I went the loupe route with the 3.5-inch screen on the original Pocket and tried it with DSLR rear screens, I found a real EVF to be far superior to loupes on screens, even the side finder setup,on the SmallHD 500 series.

I get the feeling from seeing all sorts of shoots even on movie shoots that a monitor for viewing is preferred over and evf. Every time I see someone in the street with a Sony f7 or similar shoulder rmount cam they’re using a monitor instead of an evf.

Small hd discontinued the sidewinder didn’t they? No one seems motivated to make one because most are using a monitor to view.

Saw someone shooting yesterday using a Sony f7 with monitor in full daylight with just a sunshade hood.
2200 nit monitors can be gotten now for $330. Monitor can be used in extreme low or high mode while standing. An evf can’t. The only viable evf are the zacutos and they run real expensive. I’m just bringing up reasons that monitors seem to be the preferred and why no one is stepping up with evf options.

I'm seriously considering this sucker: http://www.feelworld.cn/ShowInfo.aspx?i ... -IPS-Panel

It would tick two boxes:
1. Daylight viewable
2. Give me back the articulating screen I miss more than I expected from the GH5.

I'm seriously considering this sucker: http://www.feelworld.cn/ShowInfo.aspx?i ... -IPS-Panel

It would tick two boxes:
1. Daylight viewable
2. Give me back the articulating screen I miss more than I expected from the GH5.

Bought 2 of these recently for the same exact reasons..

Never saw this before but it seems to be a good option if you need an evf. 5 inch 1920x1080 touchscreen monitor with 5 inch loupe eyepiece with diopter. This has to be the best bang for your buck in evf's because all the others in this price range have lower resolution.

https://www.markertek.com/product/ikan- ... tery-plate

Lots of features but might be a concern it won’t take DCI 4K greater than 24fps.


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I use the SmallHD 502/Sidefinder for my shoots. I tend to use the EVF outdoors and flip open to use the monitor indoors. Honestly, this was a huge upgrade for me from shooting without a monitor—and you can install a LUT and have false color (and reference images too for matching lighting).

I've never liked the EVF options that attach to a fixed monitor. With an articulating arm, the SmallHD can rotate or position however you need.

I don't think they sell the Sidefinder anymore, but you can probably check ebay or other communities that sell used gear. I wouldn't part with mine, though

Having a small EVF like I posted would be a boon in such conditions, especially if you had one that could be attached to a cold shoe on the BMPCC4K.

That's exactly what I would buy so long as it connected with HDMI.

I did also see the Grid Viewfinder 5.0, which is said to be fixable to the BMPCC4K for 250 dollars or so. It looks bulky and people say the people behind it are not very responsive to questions. Certainly there website doesn't install confidence as the Info form they provide for requesting info does not work. Also they are very sketchy on info on their site. You find more info on utube videos. In comparison to the viewfinder you have shown above the Grid 5 is also bulky.

I'm seriously considering this sucker: http://www.feelworld.cn/ShowInfo.aspx?i ... -IPS-Panel

I don't see any in stock at B&H or Amazon, where did you find one of these for sale?

That FeelWorld has a lot of features, but it only supports DCI 4K 24p which may be a concern to some. UHD all frame rates up to 30p. No idea how long it will last on one NP-F970 battery in bright sunlight at 2200nits. Looks like it does not include the DC Adapter as it lists that as optional. Would be very useful though and would like to hear feedback from one of our forum members.


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The P4K actually has a prety good screen and good functionality, the problem is seeing it on day light and focusing the eye on it. This is one solution for a very compact rig.

Screenshot 2019-04-28 at 20.27.45.jpg (192.9 KiB) Viewed 22919 times

This is obviously a prototype. We could provide few of these for testers. It is though not completelly free. The price is 50 euro + shipping. Contact me if you are interested.

Portkey is making that looks good though expensive. An evf for bmp4k just needs to help focus and nothing else/ (imop)

Ricardo Marty

BMD has an evf, all they need to do is change the mount to fit any camera.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/ima ... 137318.jpg




Ricardo Marty

BMD has an evf, all they need to do is change the mount to fit any camera.

Ricardo Marty

The URSA Viewfinder is SDI only and the BMPCC4K is HDMI only. So still need and HDMI to SDI converter and that would introduce lag and one more gadget to power and rig. BMD needs to make a new viewfinder that is both HDMI and SDI like Zacuto Gratical HD

BMD has an evf, all they need to do is change the mount to fit any camera.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/ima ... 137318.jpg

BUT will they? that would be an excellent choice and keep the 'solution' BMD.

The 5" Video assist would work good with the kind of loop I posted above. It looks like watching 30" monitor in 60 cm. Easy to focus, easy to see. We will make also a prototype that will fit the smaller video assist.

Can the P4K output different resolution on HDMI than what it is recording? The 5" VA can handle 4k 30p if I remember correctly, but not higher.

The 5" Video assist would work good with the kind of loop I posted above. It looks like watching 30" monitor in 60 cm. Easy to focus, easy to see. We will make also a prototype that will fit the smaller video assist.

Can the P4K output different resolution on HDMI than what it is recording? The 5" VA can handle 4k 30p if I remember correctly, but not higher.

If it had a loop like the "Sidefinder it would be better"

Ricardo Marty

This product was discontinued I think mostly because of some bad design issues.and was too expensive. But the idea was brilliant.

I second the Portkeys EVF. Got to check it out at NAB and it was very nice. And honestly, $1199 is very cheap for the quality of viewfinder. This isn't a monitor with a loop, but an actual highness viewfinder with a ton of features. I liked it better than the Zacuto offerings, which are all $2k. The other advantage of it is that it is HDMI and SDI so you can use it across multiple platforms, something the more expensive BMD viewfinder can not do.

I second the Portkeys EVF. Got to check it out at NAB and it was very nice. And honestly, $1199 is very cheap for the quality of viewfinder. This isn't a monitor with a loop, but an actual highness viewfinder with a ton of features. I liked it better than the Zacuto offerings, which are all $2k. The other advantage of it is that it is HDMI and SDI so you can use it across multiple platforms, something the more expensive BMD viewfinder can not do.

I like this EVF. I contacted the company and suggested a simpler version without all the tools because
If its a non-recording monitor why do we need the tools? the tools?

They said they will make it. I assume they will use the same form factor but I hope its cheaper. If so I will buy it regardless of the size and then suffer when a smaller one comes out.

Ricardo m
Marty

It's kind of insane that, 10 years into the DSLR revolution, no one's made an incredibly simple, small EVF with HDMI only for around $500. They'd sell a trillion of them.

I’m fairly sure if it was so simple BMD would have already made a cheap option. Shame that they haven’t gone this direction with their products, though Zacuto is probably the best (but most cost prohibitive) option at the moment.

As far I know BMP has been producing cameras for 50 weeks (since mid-August) as far as I know. I heard of over 1k cameras per week. And they are still in back order. So I guess they have sold close to 50k cameras and still counting. That's a huge market for an EVF maker. If they only sold to 20% of users.


Ricardo Marty

"If it's possible to produce a field monitor that shows everything that the camera LCD shows, for under US$100, a simple EVF shouldn't cost all that much."

Maybe not if the camera was build for that, if it would provide lower resolution and power for the EVF and dedicated connector, but that is not the case with P4K. (but those still cost US$200 + with low resolution screen, what I have seen)

Can P4K output FHD when shooting 4k ? ( I will verify later on, but do not have the camera at hand now) But even if it does the power and connections probem remains, unless someone provides something that hooks on the USB-C and P4K suports that.

A loupe like proposed above could cost (maybe) around US$100.

I have Canon EOS R, it has very nice EVF. For me the loupe with P4K provides better experience recarding the ease of seing the screen. The resolution on P4K screen is good, the EOS R EVF does not feel much better. Where the EOS R EVF is better is the smoothness of updating the screen. Not sure about latency, both are prety good, not perfect on that.

"If it had a loop like the "Sidefinder it would be better"

Why? easier to inbtegrate with your rig?

The optical design on that would be more expensive, also operating the touch screen with it could be strange if possible at all. And it would not work with the camera screen. I understand there is need to position the EVF separate from the camera on the more complex camera rigs, on those is it very important that the EVF size is small?

What is wrong then with existing monitors + a loupe? It provides good visibility on sun light.

Small well integrated low cost EVF would be of course nice, but I do not think it will come available at low cost, not until there is huge demand for that.

Ps. I was just thinking of buying a used Zacuton Z-finder pro EVF 290 Euro.

( https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... 667625494/ )

It comes with all accessories. I desided not to as that comes with petty low resolution screen, but more importantly as the suported input resolutions are very limited.

I understand, I saw your rig on some other post.

However, I find this prety good for a very simple rig. It provides very good visibility on the screen and 3rd support point from the head when shooting. The camera buttons come easy to use blindly after some practise, everything is nicely acessible without taking eye from the loupe.



Touch screen needs to be operated only when accessing the camera menu, not needed during normal shooting. The loupe provides access to the touch screen when needed.

But that option simply won't suit all users. Plus it is a huge addition that ostensibly doubles the length of the camera and lens setup, if not more so when using smaller lenses. It's an option for some, but I'll bet were a small and affordable EVF like I described available, they would sell like hotcakes and those sorts of compromises would fade away.

Total agreement . I would snap one up today if I could!

The point about an EVF is not that it has to have exceptional resolution, it's there when trying to focus in very bright conditions where even the brightest field monitor may suffer. And it's not going to be used constantly. That's all that most people are afte.

Those are the exact points which would make the EVF indispensible to me. As you said in your comment, versatility is the name of the game. You could indeed hold the EVF in your hand if you needed to with HDMI connection.

I have started praying for such a unit. It would answer the last issue I have with my otherwise great Pocket 4K.

"But that option simply won't suit all users."

Yes that is true.

"Plus it is a huge addition that ostensibly doubles the length of the camera and lens setup, if not more so when using smaller lenses."

That is also true, but it is also light and well integrated, no cables needed, battery grip would provide good power solution. It is a differed kind of rig for sure.

Hi Kim,
For me it is a very good idea. And you've solved well the way to touch the screen (I'm sure many people hasn't been aware of it) I would try it if it had diopters, as the Kinotehnik. Sure you could add those 37mm diopters as well, or just add the posibility to put them (for those whom already got them).
Cheers

P.S. (the ligh from underneath would difficult vision?)

I think the P4K would benefit from an external viewfinder then just a box that goes over the current screen. Sure I wouldn't mind a screen hood to put it in the shade, but a viewfinder for the screen? Since you can't rotate the screen, I'm expecting the equivalent of carpal tunnel in the neck for your future, or back pain, unless you're always filming hand-held in a standing position. While an external one, you can rotate it to whatever position works for you, while the camera stays aiming where it needs to aim. Best of both worlds.

I'd want BM to make one that can attach to the P4K without a rig or cage. Needs to be anti-twist, so besides screwing in, maybe design it to grip on the vent grills (The mount itself could also detach, so you can better rig it onto a cage). On the mount itself, they can also add a cold shoe on top to allow an external mic to still be mounted. The EVF would need to be controlled and powered by the USB-C port (depends if it gives enough juice for it), or powered by a Sony L battery if you want the port freed for an SSD. And also an HDMI port to view video (unless we can get that from the USB-C port as well), and a power and SDI port, so it can be used for other cameras and accessories.

As the owner of a GH5 (and numerous Canon DSLRs), I can safely say that a cheap, small, simple EVF would be gobbled up by tons of DSLR owners who already have a built-in EVF. The built in EVFs, while nice, are extremely inconvenient for video, because you have to keep your face pressed up against the back of the camera body to use it. I've barely ever used the EVF on my GH5 for this reason, actually preferring to struggle to see the articulated LCD.

Basic, mom-and-pop video cameras understand this, which is why so many have articulated EVFs, and that's just for shooting soccer games.

A mint is to be made, by someone...

P.S. By the way, until someone decides to collect the small-EVF windfall, I would TOTALLY buy that Levitezer loupe, provided it's around $200 or so.

Kim, to answer your earlier question, the PC4K only outputs a HD/1080p signal at the same frame rate as the camera is recording. It does not output UHD, so a UHD Monitor/EVF is not necessary.

As for a inexpensive HDMI EVF, the only market for this would really be the new Pocket 4K, all the other mirrorless type mid range cameras, like the GH5/S or Nikon Z, have excellent EVFs built in. EVFs are more of a Cine Camera accessory used on higher end cameras, like the BM Ursa Minis, Pana EVA1, etc, where $1500 to $2K for a EVF is reasonable.
Cheers

"Kim, to answer your earlier question, the PC4K only outputs a HD/1080p signal at the same frame rate as the camera is recording. It does not output UHD, so a UHD Monitor/EVF is not necessary."

Thanks Denny, that is good info. We could maybe make the loupe so that it fits also 5" Video Assist with adapter.

Sounds like a plan Kim, you could include the SmallHD Focus Monitor, which is also around 5-inches, to add possible customers.
Cheers

"Kim, to answer your earlier question, the PC4K only outputs a HD/1080p signal at the same frame rate as the camera is recording. It does not output UHD, so a UHD Monitor/EVF is not necessary."

Thanks, Denny, that is good info. We could maybe make the loupe so that it fits also 5" Video Assist with adapter.

Too bad a sidewinder type loop won't work on the video assist. But I'm eager to see what you develop/

Ricardo Marty