4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

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marcellomazzilli

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4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Feb 06, 2019 1:14 pm

I have been told that although the BMPCC4K uses the same Sony sensor that is mounted on the GH5S, the Pocket 4K will never have the 4/3 ratio mode (useful for anamoprpyc lenses) because Blackmagic has chosen a version of the sensor that, although is identical to GH5S, has only the central panoramic 17/9 part ACTIVE while the other part of the sensor is not active. This is a HARDWARE limitation and no future firmware update will ever be able to activate it.

Can somebody confirm this? Is there an official statement by BMD?

Please let's NOT start a discussion on WHY someone should go anamorphic, is is better a 2x lens instead of a 1,33x etc... Let's just stay on the SENOR question.

Same identical sensor but only central part active so 17:9 DCI mode is the only real active area. Confirmed ?
Marcello Mazzilli
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Robert Niessner

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Feb 06, 2019 2:11 pm

marcellomazzilli wrote:I have been told that although the BMPCC4K uses the same Sony sensor that is mounted on the GH5S, the Pocket 4K will never have the 4/3 ratio mode (useful for anamoprpyc lenses) because Blackmagic has chosen a version of the sensor that, although is identical to GH5S, has only the central panoramic 17/9 part ACTIVE while the other part of the sensor is not active. This is a HARDWARE limitation and no future firmware update will ever be able to activate it.

Can somebody confirm this? Is there an official statement by BMD?

Please let's NOT start a discussion on WHY someone should go anamorphic, is is better a 2x lens instead of a 1,33x etc... Let's just stay on the SENOR question.

Same identical sensor but only central part active so 17:9 DCI mode is the only real active area. Confirmed ?


I don't know why people just assume that the GH5s and the PCC4k share the same sensor...
... I guess because clueless YouTubers say so :lol:

Just by looking at the physical sensor in the camera itself you can see with your own eyes there is no inactive part outside the 1.896:1 area.

GH5s
17.3 x 13 mm (4:3 / 1.333:1) pixel pitch of 4.71 µm, max 4016 x 2760 px / 3680 x 2760 px 4:3 / 4096 x 2160 4k DCI (sensor size 19,29 x 10,17)
dual ISO low 160-800, high 800-51200
4k up to 60p, HD up to 240p

PCC4k
18.96 x 10.0 mm (1.896:1) pixel pitch of 4.63 µm, max 4096 x 2160
dual ISO low 100-1000, high 1250-25600
4k up to 60p, HD up to 120p
Robert Niessner
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Feb 06, 2019 5:14 pm

marcellomazzilli wrote:Can somebody confirm this? Is there an official statement by BMD?


No, and I don't understand why you would expect that to be the case.

For the time being, the Pocket 4K scans at a 16x9 ratio, if that doesn't work for anamorphic shooting then it is obviously not the right camera for you.

It might or might not change, but nobody knows that except for BMD, and they haven't stated anything in regards to it one way or another. In the past they have managed to surprise people with firmware updates that added some previously-thought-impossible functionality, but nobody should rely on a hope for professional (or even amateur) work.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
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marcellomazzilli

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Feb 06, 2019 6:41 pm

Just asking. I didn't buy the camera hoping for anything more than what was told it has... Still... Why can't I hope?
Seems to be different ideas around on this.

1) Is the sensor IDENTICAL (hardware) to the GH5S ?
2) If it is sensor looks like a "cross" so can do anamorphic using the vertical rectangle of the cross... if this is enabled. Hardwire enabled? Software enabled?
3) Could it be that the sensor is identical but something is missing on the hardware side so the extra pixels could never be used?

Sorry but until I get a documented answer I will keep asking. Doesn't mean Blackmagic will do it... I just want to know if it can be done
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Denny Smith

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Feb 06, 2019 6:55 pm

The GH5/S and Pocket 4K no more share the same sensor, than the GH2/3 and the AF100 shared the same size or even th same size sensor. They both are different sizes mate, see Robert’s comment above. The AF100 was one of the first purpose made 16:9 crop MFT sensor’s for video applications, and was also only 10mm high, allowing for 16:9 aspect ratio with full sensor readout.

The Pocket 4K does DCS 17:9 aspect ratio using the “full” sensor, what is not to understand, a 10mm high sensor is not going to give you a 4:3 without pillar boxing the sides to get 4:3 from the center, which would be less than a UHD resolution. This is just pure physics my friend ;)
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Chris Shivers

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Feb 06, 2019 7:28 pm

That rumor of the P4K sharing the same sensor as the GH5s was started by some Panasonic fanboys over the hype of the Pocket 4K if you go on the YouTube comment section you will that everywhere if you’re watching a comparison video of the two cameras. Even if they do share the same sensor you get two totally different images, so it doesn’t matter. It would be cool if they did add 4:3 support. But you can still use anamorphic lens on a 16:9 camera. Just you a anamorphic that has x1.33 squeeze instead of x2
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joe12south

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Feb 06, 2019 9:08 pm

The two cameras – as well as the Z-CAM E2 – use variations of the same Sony sensor technology, but I don't think either Panasonic or BMD uses an off-the-shelf part. (The E2 might.)

As others have stated, the two cameras have physically different sensors, and the supporting hardware (a sensor package is more than just the CMOS chip itself) is almost certainly different.

The only way for the P4K to do 4:3 is to crop, and you can do that in post. Whatever benefits you hope to achieve by shooting anamorphic on the P4K, and increase in resolution is not gonna be one of them.

All that being said, it would be nice if the P4K would preview an anamorphic de-squeeze.
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matt brown

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Feb 06, 2019 10:26 pm

There are a lot of anamorphic shooters who own m43 cameras because of the options on the GH series of cameras. If the P4K was able to de-squeeze it would allow some very interesting low light possibilities for those who chose the P4K over the GH5s as their dual ISO camera of choice.. including myself.
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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostFri Aug 30, 2019 9:40 am

When I watched Grant talk about the BMPCC6K I am sure he said in future firmware release both the Pockets will be getting anamorphic. I think he said in a few months.
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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostFri Aug 30, 2019 3:48 pm

Yes a 4:3 aspect ratio along with a S16 window are coming to the PC4K in the next FW update. ;)
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostFri Aug 30, 2019 5:20 pm

Unfortunately these are in-sensor crops, so for all intents and purposes identical to cropping in post.

This article explains it best:

https://www.cinema5d.com/anamorphic-sho ... nsor-size/


I think the best new feature for anamorphic shooters on the Pocket cameras will be the desqueezing function in the viewer which should help with framing shots correctly.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
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http://moviesbykays.com
Resolve 16.2.2, Mac OS X 10.15.4 (Catalina), i9 9800k 8-core, 64Gb DDR4 RAM, RX 5700 XT GPU, Decklink Mini 4K Monitor, LG C9, USB 3.1 RAID
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Savannah Miller

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Sep 04, 2019 12:48 am

Robert Niessner wrote:
marcellomazzilli wrote:I have been told that although the BMPCC4K uses the same Sony sensor that is mounted on the GH5S, the Pocket 4K will never have the 4/3 ratio mode (useful for anamoprpyc lenses) because Blackmagic has chosen a version of the sensor that, although is identical to GH5S, has only the central panoramic 17/9 part ACTIVE while the other part of the sensor is not active. This is a HARDWARE limitation and no future firmware update will ever be able to activate it.

Can somebody confirm this? Is there an official statement by BMD?

Please let's NOT start a discussion on WHY someone should go anamorphic, is is better a 2x lens instead of a 1,33x etc... Let's just stay on the SENOR question.

Same identical sensor but only central part active so 17:9 DCI mode is the only real active area. Confirmed ?


I don't know why people just assume that the GH5s and the PCC4k share the same sensor...
... I guess because clueless YouTubers say so :lol:

Just by looking at the physical sensor in the camera itself you can see with your own eyes there is no inactive part outside the 1.896:1 area.

GH5s
17.3 x 13 mm (4:3 / 1.333:1) pixel pitch of 4.71 µm, max 4016 x 2760 px / 3680 x 2760 px 4:3 / 4096 x 2160 4k DCI (sensor size 19,29 x 10,17)
dual ISO low 160-800, high 800-51200
4k up to 60p, HD up to 240p

PCC4k
18.96 x 10.0 mm (1.896:1) pixel pitch of 4.63 µm, max 4096 x 2160
dual ISO low 100-1000, high 1250-25600
4k up to 60p, HD up to 120p


I don't think that's right. The pixel pitch and sensor size are based on the shooting modes, and I think the original poster is right.

The GH5s and the Pocket 4K are the same sensor (pins line up when you compare the two sensor images) and the Pocket 4K likely either has inactive pixels, or blackmagic is not giving us the full sensor. There are differences in how the manufacturers have tuned the sensor, but the spec is the same.

The Pocket 6K spec matches EXACTLY to the IMX571 which is the same sensor in the Fuji-XT3, yet it does not feature the 3:2 mode that Kinefinity is putting in the Mavo s35.

A lot of sensor buying deals with licensing and features, so maybe Blackmagic just got a better deal on the sensor.
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rick.lang

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Sep 04, 2019 2:35 am

Kays is correct that shooting full sensor and cropping in post can be the best choice. Cropping in post can use the full sensor pixels to aid in reframing the shot or stabilizing the shot or downscaling the shot. So you have all options open.

The advantage of shooting in the window is that you save on storage space and can permit faster frame rates if you’re wanting slow motion playback. If does teach you to frame very carefully and keep the camera steady. And you can use lenses that don’t cover the full sensor perhaps like Super16 or ENG style lenses with adapters.


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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Sep 04, 2019 5:10 am

Sorry, but the Pocket 4K is 18.96mmx10mm (17:9 aspect ratio) Sensor and it is not the same sensor the GH5S uses, which uses a 17.3x13mm multi aspect ratio sensor, which is a native 4:3 aspect ratio. ;)
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Savannah Miller

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Jan 15, 2020 2:53 am

Old post but was there ever an answer on this? The pocket 4K, GH5s, Terra 4K, Z-Cam e2 are all the same sensor size when you overlay them together in photoshop. The only difference is that Blackmagic is the only company claiming their sensor is 16:9 and listing the sensor dimensions based on the usable photosites. Same with the Pocket 6K sensor not offering 3:2 aspect, yet other cameras like Kinefinity Mavo 6K offer such ratios. Does Sony license sensors based on usable aspect ratio? I can't imagine Blackmagic claiming the sensor being only 16:9 and it not being true?
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rick.lang

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Re: 4/3 ratio on BMPCC4K for Anamorphic

PostWed Jan 15, 2020 3:40 am

I think it’s a custom order from Sony and likely is less expensive if the active photosites are a smaller area than another version.
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