Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

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ricardo marty

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Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 04, 2019 6:19 pm

This might be the future even for bmd.

http://octopuscinema.com/

starts at 0:24




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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 04, 2019 6:31 pm

Oh geez...another one of these?

I wish them luck, but these types of projects seldom seem to gain enough interest, or move beyond the prototype phase.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 04, 2019 7:16 pm

Axiom
Modular camera with interchangeable sensor, modular component to add what you need. Good idea on chart but when they ti real found many problems about color science and more, far over the simple grab a sensor, put in a camera and record data from sensor electronics.

I Kickstarter it many years ago... then I bought Bmpc4k (the old production camera 4K), they go over, but at today stay on experimental feature, not a real production camera to use on set.


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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 04, 2019 7:59 pm

Hopefully, someone will make it true. In the video we can how it mixes realtime comp vfx with the footage.
If they deliver that and its good quality there could be a market for this.

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Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 04, 2019 8:30 pm

ricardo marty wrote:Hopefully, someone will make it true. In the video we can how it mixes realtime comp vfx with the footage.
If they deliver that and its good quality there could be a market for this.

Ricardo Marty


I hope for them that is produceable in a quantity for the future.
Develop a single product is not simple, delivery a small quantity of it with good quality check and a affordable price is not simple.
In the market I see since 40 or 45 different project of cameras in the last 20 years that never arrive on market or arrive with price not affordable for the masses.
The only one I saw was DigitalBolex, all good but bad design. Good cameras but with cheap desig. (Imitation of consumer bolex) but cost too much for consumer and pro wan’t to use for some limitation.
Good for nostalgic people, for hipster but no more.
I was afraid when they declare to be out of business, I hoped a lot that they can develop a 2.0 generation for pro line.
I hope this project have more business plan and more funds to put camera to large production and be another interesting tool for shooting.


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Csaba Nagy

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 04, 2019 9:36 pm

I see this project has having to potential to have a better foothold out of the gate than some of the other attempts at this concept.

Mainly cause they're using very standard, "off-the-shelf" components on the hardware side. Hardware is very "hard" to do well. They've offloaded that from themselves to a degree.

I'm hopeful for Apertus to eventually reach their goals and fulfill their promises of an open-source camera. But they certainly have it harder given they want to design a lot of it from scratch.

This is an industrial sensor block with a PCI-E connection to a powerful mobile "laptop" in essence. Which by all means should work fine. ( will be power hungry ) so with that out of the way, their big focus should be creating a great user experience in software and delivering it in a good usable/ergonomic package...Yea it shouldn't be white... :lol:
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 04, 2019 10:04 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:I see this project has having to potential to have a better foothold out of the gate than some of the other attempts at this concept.

Mainly cause they're using very standard, "off-the-shelf" components on the hardware side. Hardware is very "hard" to do well. They've offloaded that from themselves to a degree.

I'm hopeful for Apertus to eventually reach their goals and fulfill their promises of an open-source camera. But they certainly have it harder given they want to design a lot of it from scratch.

This is an industrial sensor block with a PCI-E connection to a powerful mobile "laptop" in essence. Which by all means should work fine. ( will be power hungry ) so with that out of the way, their big focus should be creating a great user experience in software and delivering it in a good usable/ergonomic package...Yea it shouldn't be white... :lol:


Yes, I agree. Hope they have different colors. I'll order one in REd so I can boast of having a red camera. :D


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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 04, 2019 10:12 pm

Australian Image wrote:You can then have a red octopus camera with a tentacle sync. :)


And if you then if you and a friend trade sensors for it you could call that a squid pro quo.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 12:27 am

Well, we all have witnessed how well an interchangeable sensor module worked out with Blackmagic's turret. And what happend to the modular mobile phone, when even Google with all its resources had to give up that project. And as soon as you are hitting bandwidth or processing power limits, a modular approach won't help - because then basically you have to exchange every single part.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 1:41 am

Robert Niessner wrote:Well, we all have witnessed how well an interchangeable sensor module worked out with Blackmagic's turret. And what happend to the modular mobile phone, when even Google with all its resources had to give up that project. And as soon as you are hitting bandwidth or processing power limits, a modular approach won't help - because then basically you have to exchange every single part.


I would argue this concept isn't very comparable to those because in each of those instances the company in question, were designing their modular systems from the ground up. There were no standards for interchangeable sensors so BMD for ex made their own way. For whatever reason, we can speculate for days ( thermals, signal integrity, processing ) it turned out being much more complicated and hard to design for.

What octopus is doing building around very common 3rd party industrial sensor modules. These are typically used in manufacturing, surveillance, etc...

You plug them in a computer over PCI-Express or USB 3.1 and with their included software packages you can pipe the image data right into a PC. Or in this case an Intel based mini PC.

So no I don't see the same hurdles here necessarily, they are going through an established/standardized means so they cut out all the overhead and headaches of designing this modularity themselves.

One of drawbacks of this I'm going to speculate is cost. The "all-in-one" nature of those sensor modules I would think makes them cost a lot more than it would equivalent to building the sensor onto your own product from scratch.

You also limit yourself to what the 3rd party sensor manufacturer has in terms of catalog. You will only have so many sensors to choose from.

Also I think it's going to quite a hefty cost to buy into this Octopus camera system overall, especially with the volumes they will be selling at initially.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 7:03 am

One could probably assemble a full modular open source cinema camera from parts salvaged from already dead open source cinema camera projects.

I'm not sure swapping just a sensor will give any real benefit. If you want to make a diffence in resolution you will increase all the other requirements also, so you also swap the computer part, firmware, cabling etc? Sure there are people who assemble whole cars from scratch but doesn't seem like a far-flying idea for actual production. For tinkering it is nice but tinkerers can buy all these off the shelf parts off the shelf right now already.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Jul 05, 2019 8:31 am

Open source cameras have been around a while. With seemingly very little progress.

Hello Axiom for starters. They have been going for years and seem to make steps forward but are also seemingly not making a lot of headway.

And modular...well.

We’ve had this chat before with armchair experts on forums who think cameras are made of commodity items you can just plug together.

They’re not. And making it modular makes it even more complicated.

I wish these guys the best because innovation is always desired and welcomed but they have a very very big and expensive challenge ahead.

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 7:34 pm

A fact that you describe a modular camera like a modular computer is hilarious, the main problems of computers is exactly the modularity that causes problems of Os, of driver to manage hardware and stability of all.
In the last 40 years I saw exactly how computer fail progressively on stability for this reasons. And not only, modular and variable on hardware mean also a waste of processing power and more consumption ...

Exactly what I want to avoid on a work tool :
Too much power consumption
Too much processing power needing
Instability due different hardware support
Some problems of connection between modular that could cause interruption or problems



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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 7:51 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:What octopus is doing building around very common 3rd party industrial sensor modules. These are typically used in manufacturing, surveillance, etc...

You plug them in a computer over PCI-Express or USB 3.1 and with their included software packages you can pipe the image data right into a PC. Or in this case an Intel based mini PC.


Then go build one yourself and report back to us about how easy it was.

Good luck... you're going to need it.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 8:31 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Csaba Nagy wrote:What octopus is doing building around very common 3rd party industrial sensor modules. These are typically used in manufacturing, surveillance, etc...

You plug them in a computer over PCI-Express or USB 3.1 and with their included software packages you can pipe the image data right into a PC. Or in this case an Intel based mini PC.


Then go build one yourself and report back to us about how easy it was.

Good luck... you're going to need it.


Not sure how you pulled that "doing this would be easy" from those two parts of my statement or that I could do it?

I'm however describing Octopus approach ( at a high level ) vs the other open source cinema camera ( Axiom ) and feel Octopus has put themselves into a better position to reach their end goal sooner. Launching into market.

We can have high level discussion here, do you think that's unreasonable?
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 8:49 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:Not sure how you pulled that "doing this would be easy" from those two parts of my statement or that I could do it?


It's pretty clear in what you wrote...

I'm however describing Octopus approach ( at a high level ) vs the other open source cinema camera ( Axiom ) and feel Octopus has put themselves into a better position to reach their end goal sooner. Launching into market.

We can have high level discussion here, do you think that's unreasonable?


That's probably wishful thinking, because there will always be people derailing the discussion with the belief that all it takes is a sensor, a data connection, and a computer of some kind.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 9:02 pm

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 9:13 pm

John Brawley wrote:Open source cameras have been around a while. With seemingly very little progress.

Hello Axiom for starters. They have been going for years and seem to make steps forward but are also seemingly not making a lot of headway.

And modular...well.

We’ve had this chat before with armchair experts on forums who think cameras are made of commodity items you can just plug together.

They’re not. And making it modular makes it even more complicated.

I wish these guys the best because innovation is always desired and welcomed but they have a very very big and expensive challenge ahead.

JB
Very well put.

Elements of a digital cinema camera that require more than just combining commodity items are developing the OS for the camera, developing codecs, and building in color management.

BMD has a come a long way in those areas. The camera OS is fantastic and BRAW is an extremely efficient raw codec with very flexible color management that delivers a simple, painless post workflow where color choices easily travel from the DP all the way through to the final color grade.

What will the workflow and color management be like in these modular open source cameras if they do someday make it into production?
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 10:43 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:Elements of a digital cinema camera that require more than just combining commodity items are developing the OS for the camera, developing codecs, and building in color management.


Let's not forget that BMD didn't figure out color science from scratch, either. Buying DaVinci Systems was brilliant not just to get the market, but also for the knowledge of color science that the DaVinci team brought with it.

And let's not forget that even though AJA had a lot of technical knowhow before it started building the Cion, the color science out the gate STILL fell flat on its face.

BMD has a come a long way in those areas. The camera OS is fantastic and BRAW is an extremely efficient raw codec with very flexible color management that delivers a simple, painless post workflow where color choices easily travel from the DP all the way through to the final color grade.


And how long did it take to develop and launch braw? It's not like BMD didn't know what it was doing... R&D takes time. I'm sure BMD had some false starts in there, where it discovered that it had headed down a road that wasn't going to pan out and had to rethink things. The end result turned out great obviously, but we don't get to see the journey the team went through to get there.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 11:43 am

FYI, the developers of the Octopus camera now say it's scheduled for release in Q4 2020 and they have put up some prototype footage on Vimeo. One intriguing thing is that the camera will accept USB inputs for sound, which means you can use a high-end interface like the Sonosax M2D2 and get ultra-high-quality sound directly in camera. Of course if you don't want to use camera-mounted mics this becomes tricky because you'll need to run cables out to your mics (increasing the odds of interference or disaster if someone trips over the cables) but it's still a cool idea.

http://octopuscinema.com/
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 11:48 am

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 3:01 pm

What is lossy raw? Is this what we’re calling braw, praw, and raw lite?

The Octopus is so modular that you don’t even have to offload footage. Connect a monitor and keyboard and you can launch Resolve. This camera may not be able to make coffee but it can have it delivered from the best shop in town.

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 3:04 pm

Howard Roll wrote:What is lossy raw? Is this what we’re calling braw, praw, and raw lite?

The Octopus is so modular that you don’t even have to offload footage. Connect a monitor and keyboard and you can launch Resolve. This camera may not be able to make coffee but it can have it delivered from the best shop in town.

Good Luck

Lossy ?

It only does lossless RAW / cDNG ? Maybe 264 later by the look.

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 3:06 pm

John Brawley wrote:It only does lossless RAW / cDNG ? Maybe 264 later by the look.


From the website:

Out of the box, the OCTOPUS CAMERA records lossless compressed 12-bit RAW 4K into CinemaDNG format. For longer record times, the camera also records high bitrate (900Mbit) 10-bit HEVC.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 3:08 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:
John Brawley wrote:It only does lossless RAW / cDNG ? Maybe 264 later by the look.


From the website:

Out of the box, the OCTOPUS CAMERA records lossless compressed 12-bit RAW 4K into CinemaDNG format. For longer record times, the camera also records high bitrate (900Mbit) 10-bit HEVC.



Yeah. Howard was saying lossy.

It’s lossless (but still compressed but mathematically lossless like a ZIP file) cDNG

NOT

lossy cDNG like 3:1 or 5:1 which is what BMD used to do (as well as uncompressed / lossless)

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 3:19 pm

I was talking about the camera making coffee.

This lossy raw thing is straight from Octopus.

Flossy.png
Flossy.png (45.51 KiB) Viewed 2561 times


Good Luck
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 3:23 pm

Howard Roll wrote:I was talking about the camera making coffee.

This lossy raw thing is straight from Octopus.


Good Luck


Interesting, because elsewhere on their site they say lossless right above the graphic you posted...

"Out of the box, the OCTOPUS CAMERA records lossless compressed 12-bit RAW 4K into CinemaDNG format. For longer record times, the camera also records high bitrate (900Mbit) 10-bit HEVC."

I think they might have trouble if they do lossy RAW cDNG like what BMD used to do.

Also, have to say, cDNG is unwieldy, especially when it's lossless. As soon as the resolution goes up the hard drive demands also skyrocket. It's not a good platform for future high resolution growth, which seems to be one of the selling points of the camera.

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 3:34 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Also, have to say, cDNG is unwieldy, especially when it's lossless. As soon as the resolution goes up the hard drive demands also skyrocket. It's not a good platform for future high resolution growth, which seems to be one of the selling points of the camera.

JB


Maybe Octopus is adopting braw? That would be clever... and much more forward thinking than cDNG, while also being nicer for post than ProResRaw.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 4:15 pm

Howard Roll wrote:I was talking about the camera making coffee.

This lossy raw thing is straight from Octopus.

Flossy.png


Good Luck


Lossy Compressed cDNG 3:1, 4:1 7:1, etc.. something like Kinefinity does?
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 4:18 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Maybe Octopus is adopting braw? That would be clever... and much more forward thinking than cDNG, while also being nicer for post than ProResRaw.


I think anyone that wants to be above 4K right now has to do some kind of compression. IN uncompressed the data rates will cripple even the most well set up productions.

In the RAW space that's tricky, but I think BRAW has proven to be very very solid already and to me also seems to be the "smarter" codec compared to other options like ProRes RAW.

I don't know if they are going to go into other cameras, but the fact that they are already working on external recorders for other brands is pretty cool. It's already rolled out into what is fast becoming one the most popular editing platforms too (Resolve)...

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 4:59 pm

There is at least one modular camera on the markets Insta360 ONE R

Screenshot 2020-04-03 at 19.52.36.jpg
Screenshot 2020-04-03 at 19.52.36.jpg (204.62 KiB) Viewed 2537 times


I think it is pretty smart and there is clear purpose for it to be.

Not sure though that the same applies for bigger cameras. Usually both censor and processor is updated at the time. It is plenty of integration and software.

I much would like a camera like BMD micro studio to get more popular. If it would and it would be somehow standardised size and interfaces, there would be accessories for it, like view finder, handle, battery etc.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 5:05 pm

Ick.

Modular.

It’s a false dream.

Let’s not forget Kraft camera too.

https://www.cinema5d.com/craft-camera-a ... ra-system/

Modular is what RED sort of half arsed tried to do. Now they make cameras like Ranger and DXL for the serious end of filmmaking.

It’s a variation of the sensor in a box thinking.

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Apr 03, 2020 5:14 pm

John Brawley wrote:I think anyone that wants to be above 4K right now has to do some kind of compression. IN uncompressed the data rates will cripple even the most well set up productions.


Yeah, I honestly hated cDNG even when I was working with the BMCC 2.5K... I put up with it because of the image quality; I waited for it because I couldn't at the time afford the likes of a Red, but the image quality was comparable to its contemporary Mysterium-X. Even than Grant was talking about a clip-based raw codec, that long ago.

In the RAW space that's tricky, but I think BRAW has proven to be very very solid already and to me also seems to be the "smarter" codec compared to other options like ProRes RAW.


Some folks I've asked at BMD have said that they're open to having other companies adopt Braw, so I'm hoping others will take them up on it. I'd rather have that than the more closed ProResRaw...

I don't know if they are going to go into other cameras, but the fact that they are already working on external recorders for other brands is pretty cool. It's already rolled out into what is fast becoming one the most popular editing platforms too (Resolve)...

JB


Now that it's available in the Video Assist, hopefully it will become more popular as an acquisition format.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 5:41 pm

Octopus Camera now 8K Global Shutter:

https://www.cined.com/octopus-camera-lf ... r-upgrade/
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Chris Leutger

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 7:40 pm

rick.lang wrote:Octopus Camera now 8K Global Shutter:

https://www.cined.com/octopus-camera-lf ... r-upgrade/


You mean the camera that doesn't exist yet has awesome advertised features?

I'm working on my Raspberry Pi camera and when I'm done it's going to disrupt the entire cinema camera industry!
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 9:59 pm

I believe Octopus calls it a “prototype.” Maybe that’s like a concept in the automotive industry: physically you may see it but you’ll never own it.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostSat Jan 30, 2021 12:47 am

Chris Leutger wrote:
rick.lang wrote:Octopus Camera now 8K Global Shutter:

https://www.cined.com/octopus-camera-lf ... r-upgrade/


You mean the camera that doesn't exist yet has awesome advertised features?

I'm working on my Raspberry Pi camera and when I'm done it's going to disrupt the entire cinema camera industry!


way ahead of you... ;)

Image

Some very early test footage:
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostSat Jan 30, 2021 1:20 am

Csaba Nagy wrote:
way ahead of you... ;)



This is so cool...

Raspberry Pi Forum discussion: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 3&t=296776
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostSat Jan 30, 2021 7:26 am

indeed. And a nice rig with a parfocal TV lens from the 60s (image from the forum thread):

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostSat Jan 30, 2021 11:33 am

That viewfinder :shock: :o
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostSun Jan 31, 2021 11:58 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:
way ahead of you... ;)

Some very early test footage:


Light years ahead of me! That's great. I have three Pi's here in front of me that I'm doing various things with right now. Non-camera related things. But I've been looking at the camera pieces since they came out and trying to figure out if it's worth digging into since I've got a bunch of C-mount lenses....or if it's going to be another project piling up in a box...
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostMon Feb 01, 2021 3:34 am

First look at the early prototype, been working on getting some essentials for the liveview on screen display.

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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostWed Feb 03, 2021 1:12 pm

In 2013 i partecipate to Kickstarter of axiom, a modular camera concept, we are in 2021, at today they never go out from beta state...
there is too much areas to manage with modular concept, and android is is worst thing I would like to see on a working tool.
An antivirus also on camera is the last thing that I want to see... just today tomshardware announce the last bug under android that allow hacker to go in our phones.
I prefer an optimised Os like red, arti, bmdOs where you have all tailored for hardware.


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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostWed Feb 03, 2021 4:31 pm

By the time a bunch of volunteers can get a project engineered, the source components may have already moved forward another generation and the project may have to start over because obsolete stock will be sold down. Parts support may no longer exist by the time the project matures.
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Re: Open platform cinema camera. coming soon

PostTue Feb 09, 2021 12:05 am

Have now implemented basic camera control by using the Blackmagic Camera Control Protocol ( in reverse! ;) )

This allows camera control using the many existing iOS/Andriod apps out there.

Not all controls can be/will be implemented.

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