UltraSync blue: timecode via bluetooth

Hi,

anyone has tried this BT-based TC transmitter yet?

https://www.timecodesystems.com/products-home/ultrasyncblue/

I have two bmpcc4k and a zoom F8 (which is officially supported)....
If it would work with bmpcc4k as well, that would be a perfect match!

any ideas?

greets
Mike

Unfortunately it doesn't... I followed the ultrasync for a while, hoping for the same, but they are adding compatible devices at a very very slow pace, I'm not sure when they will get to our cameras or if it is possible at all because of the Blackmagic hardware...

Mike, thanks for the link. I’m in the market for a timecode sync that will work with the Zoom H5 or F6, the Nikon Z6, the URSA Mini 4.6K PL, possibly MixPre-6/10T. Might not be able to find that in one unit.


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If you're looking for a way to sync your BMD cameras with each other or with an external audio recorder, I recommend Tentacle Sync boxes:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1372225-REG/tentacle_sync_te1_sync_e_single_set.html?ap=y&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImbiJhaiG4wIVEKvsCh3kYA3xEAQYASABEgLXYPD_BwE&smp=y

They are small, light, super simple, and have been totally reliable over the past couple years that I've been using them.
For devices without timecode input (like that Nikon) they send out an LTC pulse that when recorded to the audio channel can be read by Resolve (or Avid) as timecode. It's really useful.
The Ursa Mini, Ursa Mini Pro, and the 4K Pocket can all read the timecode directly.

Thanks, Jamie. I’m trying to weigh that against the Ultrasync. Wish I had one of those on the narrative shoot!


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As far as I can see from the Timecode Systems website, the Ultrasync is only compatible with a very few devices and no BMD cameras are on the list

well, I just wrote them an email asking for bmpcc4k support... I'll keep you posted!
regards
Mike

ok guys, and here is their answer

The UltraSync BLUE can only work with products that have had our timecode over Bluetooth protocols implemented, which unfortunately, is not something that Black Magic have done with any of their products yet. We know how useful timecode over Bluetooth could be to a camera like this one, and so are working hard with brands to try and add to the list of compatible products as quickly as we can. You can view the current list of compatibility on our UltraSync BLUE page here: https://www.timecodesystems.com/product ... asyncblue/

Thanks for the heads-up Jamie and the update Mike. I need something quick so will look into Tentacle Sync.


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Rick definitely listen to Jamie I have 3 tentacle sync boxes. Very easy to set up and there is an app you can see what the tentacle sync boxes are doing (eg frame rate and timecode etc).. for your I phone or android. I have the mix pre 10T all you do is connect the tentacle sync box to your time code Out of your mix pre. Then disconnect it and connect it to your Ursa mini. Leave it connect. I don’t really trust the Ursa to keep timecode synced after taking the cam on and off. I know the G2 has improved in that regard but I haven’t tested taking the tentacle sync box off after syncing time code to the Ursa. The Battery life is 14 hours continuous recording. I’ve had them for a year and a half and only charged them once.

Thanks, Donnell. I’m looking to sync recordings from a boom mic on a Zoom H5 as well as the URSA Mini 4.6K and BMPCC4K. I’d like to also sync audio on a Nikon Z6 which currently is recorded internally—the manual says it can take sync. With all that and possibly a future Zoom F6 recorder, should I look at the Tentacke Sync E2 or just the E?


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Hey rick if you mean E2 as in the 2 pack tentacle sync boxes. Yes I would get that. US$519. You have At least 3 Cams. So you can place one box on the Nikon Z6, I don’t know how long the Nikon can hold time code. Especially if you shut it down and start it up. So I would just leave one sync box on it. Then place the other on either the Ursa or Pocket 4k. I know blackmagic updated the Ursa’s to keep sync without drift I think for at least 8 hours. So I would use the second sync box to sync the Ursa then disconnect the box after syncing and keep it on the pocket 4k while shooting. The box can generate its own time code or you can just simply connect the tentacle sync box to your zoom H5 it will grab the time code from your zoom H5. Then you can connect the box to all your cameras and sync. If you can trust that all the cameras can hold the time code without risk of drift within your shoot then you can just get one box. Two is ideal. 3 is best for for all your cameras. Just Sync and forget about it.

Extremely helpful advice. I wish the official website had more details than a cute cartoon that lasts a few seconds. Maybe I’m missing something there.


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Hey rick if you get it and have any issues trying to set it up i’ll do a video for you on how to set it up. Just let me know when you’re ready. I remember more detailed info on setting it up. But it may have changed. Check out this review/tutorial by Chris Judd. It will help.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o36XYOPp0BE

Hey Rick

The Zoom H5 can't be jammed to standard timecode, nor can it send out timecode. This is why the Tentacles are so useful for a situation like yours because they send out an LTC pulse than you can record to one of the four tracks on the H5. In post, you pull that audio file into Resolve because it can read the LTC pulse and use that info as the timecode on the file (it's a one click operation that can be done on a whole batch of clips at once) and then you can sync those audio files to your cameras which will have matching timecode from the Tentacles that were attached to them (also a one click operation that can be done in a batch in Resolve)

I'm happy to help if you get stuck anywhere : )

Thanks kindly Donnell and Jamie. I didn’t initially realize that it would be best to have one tentacle connected to each device. The price adds up but the post workflow seems very slick.

The Ultrasync didn’t take that approach but may not be the best choice for my situation.


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Rick I have 3 boxes i’m Currently only using 2. Message me your address i’ll Mail one to you.

Tentacle Sync arrived this afternoon. So very kind of you, Donnell! Much appreciated.

Should be testing it in a few days as I’m still working on editing the shoot done on July 1st before the producer goes on vacation end of this week.


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No worries Rick.

Finally tested Donnell’s Tentacle Sync on the URSA Mini 4.6K and BMPCC4K so both cameras will record with the same timecode embedded with the video. That went well.

Then I waited about 8 hours with the cameras left on and the Tentacle Sync left plugged into the Pocket 4K. I think that went well but hard to know as I cannot precisely begin both cameras at the same instant.

Then I turned off both cameras and waited overnight. Turned on the Pocket with the Tentacle Sync plugged in but started the UM46K using its own click to generate timecode. There was a difference again because I can never get the internal clock precisely the same as the Tentacle Sync.

I had planned to resync all Devices to the Tentacle Sync say every four hours on set. And not turn any devices off.

So here’s my question about best practices. In Resolve, on the Media page, when placing video and external audio in a bin for Resolve to sync, does it require the sync to have exactly identical timecode or is it smart enough to see the waveforms might be off a little and adjust for that when syncing by ‘timecode?’

Hope this is clear. If it’s an intelligent Sync by timecode, I’ll be fine; if it’s exactly by timecode value without regard to little waveform adjustments, then do I really need one timecode for each device?

Thanks for your insights. I can’t test the external H5 recorder I’ve used as it’s owner is away on vacation.


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Best practice with the Tentacles is to get them all synced to each other first, and then attach and keep them connected to each camera/audio recorder so that they are feeding in external timecode for the duration of the shoot day. The internal clocks on BMD cameras begin drifting the moment you remove the external timecode source. The Tentacles, in the my experience, will maintain sync through an entire day without drifting as long as you keep them powered on. Then, rinse, repeat for each shoot day.
Yes, that means you need one Tentacle for each camera/audio recorder. (The one exception I've found to that rule is if the audio recorder is Sound Devices 633 level or higher audio mixer that has a solid internal timecode generator that it can act as a master clock from which to sync the Tentacles. However, when I've used that workflow, I always resync the Tentacles after lunch or other long breaks.)

In Resolve you can sync by either waveform or from timecode, not both. Resolve doesn't combine the methods.

As I feared, thank you, Jamie.


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Hi Rick Jamie is right. At the moment you only have one tentacle for 3 cams. Call up support and ask them how long does it take before the 4.6k starts drifting. I remember an update for that a while ago that helps the cam stay in sync longer. But to be on the safe side if you have a shoot coming up soon. Connect the tentacle sync to your cams every 2 hours. If for any reason there’s drift, for example you turned your cam off and forgot to re-sync the tentacle to the cam. Then you can try to use sync by waveform for those “specific” shots you recognize the drift. Only select/highlight those shots to sync by waveform. If all your other shots are fine, just highlight and select those shots to sync by timecode. You just don’t have the option to do both at the same time like Jamie said. And you should have the cam recording scratch audio as well, just as a back up.

Okay, it is what it is.

This question may be up Jamie’s alley:
Now I’m wondering how the Sennheiser AVX fits into this with its 19 millisecond delay.

Currently I’ve had no problem manually slipping the embedded audio channel a few ‘subframes’ to the left of my video in Resolve Edit so the AVX waveforms match my Sennheiser 416MKH waveforms. If I fed the AVX into the H5 (or a new Zoom F6 or MixPre-6) and used the Tentacle Sync to keep the cameras in sync, will syncing my external audio to my cameras’ video tracks (by timecode) cause the AVX to require some manual fine tuning for that AVX audio on every video track?

Should I have all audio sources go into the Zoom F6 or MixPre-6 and apply a 19msec shift for that channel within the external recorder?

Edit
On second thought, I don’t think there is anything that can be done about the AVX delay except “sync by waveform.” Shooting 24 fps means a frame is 41.67 milliseconds; the AVX delay is less than half a frame, so it’s always going to round down to no adjustment. Manually in post, it can be corrected by a few “slip audio a subframe left.” More work in post if you “sync by timecode” but not too bad. No more post work after you “sync by waveform.” I worry too much.


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It certainly gets complex when automation takes over since we need to understand the rules so it works for us. The tolerance for poor video/audio sync is really zero in a narrative film. You see it so seldom that when it happens it breaks the illusion that art is. Once I understand how everything works together, it becomes simple in practice to follow the right steps.

It’s a similar issue in lighting. I have zero studio lights but if the funding comes through to do the full length movie, I’ll be applying the same care and attention to the lights which will be easier if the few affordable lights are a better quality that perform predictably. Lots of trade offs coming there though just like with lenses.


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We did use a clapper on the first shoot for that film, to sync the boom mic captured by the H5 and the audio embedded with the cameras’ video. Trouble was all three devices were not close to the same TOD and the boom mic wasn’t always used. Bit of a mess to fix in post.

Next time we need to be more rigorous and consistent. The boom/H5 audio and my camera were good and close to TOD but we were getting inconsistent times from the other camera (that I wasn’t operating) in spite of my coordinating setting the time on each device at the start of the day. I think the operator may have failed to do that properly and I never checked that camera. And it changed dramatically later so a little confusing.

All this I am correcting manually in post. Too late for me to “sync by waveform” now as the edit is nearly done. Arrrgh.


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I really wish that someone would make a more professional version rather than the cheap plastic dog trainer that I use, I think there would be a market for such a device.

Devices that do exactly that have been around since the dawn of two system sound. What you're looking for is called a Bloop Light
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/643647-REG/VariZoom_VZCP_T13_Cinema_Pro_Bloop_Light.html

This question may be up Jamie’s alley:
Now I’m wondering how the Sennheiser AVX fits into this with its 19 millisecond delay.

For the most part, I don't worry about it because:
1. 19 milliseconds isn't enough to affect visual lip sync as it's less than a frame
2. For the rare case when I'm really going to have to mix an overhead boom mic placed near the speaker directly with an AVX lav on the same speaker, I either attach another AVX to TX/RX combo to the boom mic for the shoot, or if I've got to use a wired boom mic, I set the audio recorder to delay the signal from the boom by 19ms
3. If I do end up with some tiny offset between different mic sources that I can hear, I deal with it in the final mix for whatever few small instances it's an issue. It's easy to slip a clip or even a whole track by subframe in any DAW to get waveforms to line up if needed.

That link doesn't show anything.

You're right. I guess they don't sell them anymore and they've been superseded by all the fancy digital timecode slates, etc.
If you can find a sound recordist or outlet that has old Nagra stuff they may have a Bloop Light
It was more common for documentary production where slates would have been disruptive and required additional crew member to do the slating. Bloop light was silent (as the beep tone went direct to the tape not out loud) and could be done by the sound recordist.

"Bloop lights were used early on as a silent slating system to establish a start mark for post syncing. In its simplest form, a bloop light was a bulb housed usually in a small BUD box with a momentary switch --- plugged into the Nagra, pushing the momentary switch would light the bulb and activate the tone oscillator putting a momentary "bloop" on the track. In post, the editor could look for the image in the frame of the lightbulb coming on (the camera would swing over and get a shot of the bloop light, usually attached to the front of the Nagra or on the strap) and line that up with the tone on the tape. We used to make our own bloop lights and at some point some companies started making more sophisticated devices that displayed numbered takes and so forth. One year, and I don't remember when, Kudelski came out with the ultimate bloop system that put coded pulse tones down on the track and other quite sophisticated syncing systems. All of this, of course, prior to the use of smpte timecode."

https://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/23814-nagra-stories-sound-men-wont-ever-tell/&page=19&tab=comments#comment-324818

I'm with you on that.

The advantage to the traditional bloop light is that, like a slate, it works for sync even when there is no camera audio. And it does happen, far more often than I'd like, where I'm handed camera files without any scratch audio. It's never that the camera audio fails, but I've had headaches in post trying to fix cases of human error where I was sent files from production in which the camera scratch mic was either turned off or the cable had came loose or the mic battery died, or the phantom power switch was turned off and no one noticed. Plural Eyes and other waveform sync tools were completely useless in those cases. A bloop light (or a Tentacles box) would have solved it.

All considered though, Tentacles are so cheap, and so easy to use, there's no reason not to just get one for all your devices and never have to worry about sync in post because you have matching SMPTE code on every file from every device. Like the Apple line, it just works.

I think 'cheap' is a relative term.

Yes, it's all relative. The real question is what is your time (or your editor or assistant editors time) worth? I bought a set of three Tentacle boxes more than two years ago. They paid for themselves in reduced post hours within a month.

I can second that!


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Sure, but the Rode Go isn't really anymore affordable than Tentacles, and a wireless solution with just a sync beep would still require either waveform sync (which takes time and doesn't always work) or a lot of manual labor to match up the sync points.

Even if your video business is only earning you minimum wage, the Tentacles will pay for themselves pretty quickly. Unless it's not a business, and it's a hobby, and in that case, then definitely, it's exactly like a yacht.

I don't 't require any syncing in post because the audio is captured directly into the camera while videoing

If it's single camera and the audio is being recorded in camera, then you're totally right, there is no use for the Tentacles in that case. It seemed from Rick's explanation that he is recording second system sound plus a couple of cameras and I assumed you were shooting with a similar set of requirements.

I'm transitioning from photography to video, so I'm not quite sure where I'm headed at the moment, so spending extravagantly is something I'm cautious about. I'm lucky that I have a lot of gear from my photography side that can transition to the video side, especially expensive lenses, which has saved me a pretty penny.

That all makes good sense. Lenses and decent grip equipment have always been the best long term investment.

Jamie, that is correct: the pilot scene for the narrative film was the URSA Mini 4.6K fed by two XLR mics (416MKH and AVX) and a Nikon Z6 recording the scratch audio and another XLR mic on a boom recorded by a Zoom H5.

If we go ahead with the feature length film, we shall be shooting with the URSA Mini 4.6K (416MKH) and BMPCC4K and possibly another AVX on the boom with the AVX mics into the Zoom F6 (or MixPre-6/10?) using two Tentacle Syncs to the cameras fed by the timecode generator from the recorder. That’s the plan at this point.

Although the Nikon Z6 is a fine camera, I’m shooting 24 fps and the Nikon only shoots 23.976 fps. The Colour Science for the Nikon is good and the pilot looks decent mixing it with the BMD cameras, but I want to keep it in the BMD world. Would be easier if the Mini 4.6K could use BRAW, but the film may be ProRes Film and I’ll just make it work.


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Rick that’s the way to go. Try and leave that Nikon out of the mix. Shoot a 2 cam system. Keep it consistent. Pro res on both like you said. Have 2 tentacle syncs on both cams. Call it a day. You won’t imagine how much time those 2 tentacle syncs will save you in post. My first film more than half the time I spent editing, I was fixing audio. Shifting out of sync audio. Sometimes the scratch Audio wasn’t close to the actors so they wouldn’t sync by waveform because it was to low or it had a lot of wind noise while shooting outside. So I basically had to manually sync audio. I NEVER want to do that again. It took 8 months to edit, including vfx. By the time I shot my second film I had the tentacle syncs. I was shocked that my audio was in sync so fast. I actually thought I was doing something wrong and hit sync by timecode at least 3 times before I realized it took just 1 second to sync over 112 shots. Those boxes also gives you the freedom to roam with your camera instead of being tethered to your audio system.

Donnell, I’ve spent a lot of time on just the pilot scene so I know what you mean. Going with the URSA Mini 4.6K and BMPCC4K shooting ProRes is still a challenge. I’ve finished my test using 444 and 422 on the two cameras. I’m going to stay 422 to minimize that difference, but Colour Science 4 versus 3 is making it difficult to match shots from the two cameras even when I use the appropriate Colour Space Transform. Needs more work.

I recall someone saying you can get Colour Space 4 on the URSA Mini 4.6K just by using that in the Resolve Colour Managed space. But I’m thinking there’s a difference and so am using Colour Science 3 as that’s what the Mini shoots.


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Hi rick, When you look at V3 in comparison to V4 what are the immediate differences you see? For example is there more saturation in V3 vs V4. Does the reds, orange, green or blues in a scene have a different tint between the two versions? I used the Ursa mini 4.6k Cdng and the G1 BRAW on my last film. I have something rendering on my computer at the moment but i’ll Go back into the settings to see what I used and report back. I do remember it was a bit tricky to match the two. But in the end most people on the forum couldn’t tell the difference. You have the pocket 4k but that’s a different beast from the G1 in terms of matching footage.

Donnell, I’m likely to use ProRes 422 on both cameras and for the colour space there is the option to use the Colour Space Transform, perhaps best as the first mode, to define the Colour as if it were from the Pocket 4K Film versión 4. You might try that with the raw, but today I only have tested ProRes and getting a similar look now. I was really sweating this, but feeling better now. I’ll test further as the tests the last couple of days were very dirty. Need some nice footage to work with for both INT and EXT.

The difference isn’t anything like saturation, just the colours can look ‘different.’

When I was working on the movie pilot, the ProRes clips on the Nikon Z6 were awful until Denny reminded me NLog had been released for Resolve. Even though I was shooting Z6 ProRes, applying the ‘raw’ NLog CST made a big difference!


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Ok just checked it. I shot in cDNG so I was able to change it to version 4 in the settings tab just now. I did not use v4 tho I used V3 for the Ursa 4.6k and v4 on the BRAW clips on the G1. I recognize at first glance on my particular edit was I lowered the saturation on the clips with V3 color science. That’s great to hear it’s starting to match up. I had to tinker a bit with my footage as well, but in the end I liked what I got. I can say they can definitely match very closely. Is Your Nikon is 8 bit? I’m not familiar with that cam

10bit is available in NLog but I used ProRes 8 bit recorded internally. You can tell the difference which is another reason to move to the Pocket 4K if we get the greenlight to continue. Ever the optimist, I’m lining up my preferred gear to purchase like an external recorder. Even looking at lights (I know can one be more optimistic than that?)!


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10bit is available in NLog but I used ProRes 8 bit recorded internally. You can tell the difference which is another reason to move to the Pocket 4K if we get the greenlight to continue. Ever the optimist, I’m lining up my preferred gear to purchase like an external recorder. Even looking at lights (I know can one be more optimistic than that?)!


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Ha! It’s optimism that turns an idea into something great. Once you get the green light Rick please post some screenshots

I’ll ask the producer if that’s permitted. We still need to create the music before this is submitted. I also have the task of tightening up the pilot as part of the edit because it’s too long at 12 minutes; the producer thought it could even go to 8 minutes—but the director wants it to move along slowly as it would in real life—as we all know reel life moves quickly as it builds to a climax. I don’t think there will be any VFX, but I’d like to do a decent job on titles and credits for the submission. So it may be several months away from completion.


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Atomos just announced that they have acquired Timecode Systems, the makers of the UltraSync products. So I guess now there's even less chance of their Bluetooth timecode protocol being implemented in BMD products.

Built-in wireless timecode sync would be a great feature. As mentioned above, Zoom has implemented this protocol in some Bluetooth enabled devices, I was hoping for Sound Devices and BMD as well.

Atomos just announced that they have acquired Timecode Systems, the makers of the UltraSync products. So I guess now there's even less chance of their Bluetooth timecode protocol being implemented in BMD products.

Built-in wireless timecode sync would be a great feature. As mentioned above, Zoom has implemented this protocol in some Bluetooth enabled devices, I was hoping for Sound Devices and BMD as well.

Yes indeed.

At least they state there will be a SDK free of charge to implement ones equipment into their eco system.
If that’s good or not I’m not sure yet.

No loss. Timecode systems products have always been overpriced anyway.
Tentacle sync boxes are the better bet — affordable and they work well with BMD cameras.

Just to put in a plug for Timecode Systems, I have had great luck with the Ultrasync One units. I find them easy to use, incredibly reliable with very long batter life, good range. I never had any issues with any of their units on any shot. I use them "hardwired" to camera and sound (Sound Devices). My only criticism is that their manuals are poorly laid out, it's difficult to work your way to the page that has the info that you need.

Personally I would be a little nervous trusting long term reliable timecode to bluetooth or any other wireless network. I have never tried timecode over bluetooth, maybe it works great. I just find bluetooth a fairly unreliable standard for other devices in my life.

I have done tests over many hours with the Tentacle Sync E and at 23.976 fps, they hold Timecode very well with Sound Devices MixPre II firmware 4.01. Other frame rates may or may not be solid, so I’m staying with 23.976 fps. You really need to test any Timecode device over the length of time you may be shooting. Or frequently resync.


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That's the good thing with the UltraSync One (the non-Bluetooth model). It stays hardwired to the camera or recorder the whole time. If the wireless connection it syncs to is lost, it still keeps accurate timecode the whole day.

Hi
do you have news regarding Ultra Synch Blue? unfortunately I read the thread too late and bought a device. I have a URSA MINI PRO G2 and BMPCC 6k