BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

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joe12south

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BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 4:26 pm

The Pocket 4K has served me well. It gets dangerously close to a camera that I don't feel little need to upgrade.

That said, one of my biggest beefs with it is the form factor. While I know that many people like the "pocket" form, even my handheld use is rigged. I would much prefer a "cube" designed to be the core of a rig.

I don't want to see BMD abandon the pocket form-factor...I think they need to create a new line similar to the BMCC with the guts of the P4K/6K.

Am I crazy, or is this a logical hole in the line-up to fill? I don't want to spend thousands on a Komodo, but I will be sorely tempted purely based on the industrial design.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 4:44 pm

There's a lot of speculation that BMD may come out with an updated and redesigned version of the Micro Cinema Camera. It's overdue. That camera has a "boxy" form factor, but it's an awfully small box (fits in the palm of your hand). I like it so much that I just bought a second one (used, with cage and remote). Incredibly flexible and adaptable: I've used it small, with just a cage, monitor, and lens, and built it out with a full rig on rails with mattebox and follow focus.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 4:51 pm

I don't mind if the size needs to increase from the BMCC – similar to how the Pocket grew – I just want a more balanced, rig-able cube with power and record buttons.
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Que Thompson

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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 5:08 pm

As I've been saying... A larger Micro Cinema Camera with Pocket 4K/6K capabilities... The only issues I have with my Pocket 4k are:
- no articulating screen, have to use external monitor
- battery life, have to use external battery
- form factor, too wide for gimbals

Since we have to use external monitors and batteries anyway, I think all three of these could be addressed with a new body like Z-Cam or a larger BM Micro. I'm buying it, no debate. I'd like to see 4K 72fps, maybe the 4.6k sensor in the G2, but that's not as big a deal as the form factor.

This simple change (form factor), imho, will be huge.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 5:18 pm

You're asking for what amounts to a different kind of camera. Do you want a self-contained camera, designed for a lone shooter, or one to rig?

The quarrel with the BMPCC 4k/6K is that it's not designed to be rigged but it doesn't offer the features which would eliminate the need for the rig. The Panny S1H is an obvious example of doing it right, along with dozens of other mirrorless cameras from years past.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 5:31 pm

I don't want my camera to look like a DSLR anymore. I can create images that will rival RED, but I look like I hopped off a skateboard and pulled my camera out of my backpack. This is hindering when trying to get higher paying jobs.

Some may say, get a UMP, it's too big and I don't like it's form factor either. The box camera is the new indicator for "pro". I hope BM adjusts.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 6:00 pm

John Paines wrote:You're asking for what amounts to a different kind of camera. Do you want a self-contained camera, designed for a lone shooter, or one to rig?

The quarrel with the BMPCC 4k/6K is that it's not designed to be rigged but it doesn't offer the features which would eliminate the need for the rig. The Panny S1H is an obvious example of doing it right, along with dozens of other mirrorless cameras from years past.


A different kind of camera is exactly what I'm asking for. Like I said, not a replacement to the Pocket line, an adjunct product line.

I bought the P4K for the features, I begrudgingly accepted the form factor because there was no other way to get the features. My guess is that there are a lot of people that feel similarly.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 6:03 pm

I suspect that Blackmagic knows who its market is, current and potential, and what those people want in a camera. Presumably that will determine future direction.

Personally, I purchased a Pocket 4K instead of a Z-Cam in part because it is self-contained, and I think that price is an important selling point. The Pocket 4K is a third the price of the Panasonic S1H that John Paines mentions above. The Pocket 4K plus Fujinon MK 18-55mm lens cost me only US$600 more than I would have had to pay for the Panasonic body alone.

I think that the bigger marketing issue is Blackmagic’s decision to support its own Raw format but not ProRes Raw, while supporting other ProRes codecs. I have doubts that this is clever from a marketing perspective, or indeed sustainable.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 7:05 pm

joe12south wrote:A different kind of camera is exactly what I'm asking for. Like I said, not a replacement to the Pocket line, an adjunct product line.


BMD has made a point of pointedly *not* trying to compete with the majors, where I gather Z-CAM probably is (if only by suggestion, via the cube form factor).

They have the Ursa, and I just wish BMD would fulfill their avowed purpose on the other line: produce a hand-held "cinema camera" which offers the functionality long expected of a hand-held camera.

Cube, maybe second?
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 7:35 pm

John Paines wrote:They have the Ursa, and I just wish BMD would fulfill their avowed purpose on the other line: produce a hand-held "cinema camera" which offers the functionality long expected of a hand-held camera.


Are you talking about a hybrid camera? That truly is a crowded space that it does not behoove BMD to play in. Everyone has one, and featuritis is rampant. BMD already answered that question in their own way...the Pocket line.

A small-ish riggy camera with modern guts is what's missing from the line-up.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 8:32 pm

Hybrid? You lost me there. I'm talking about a camera form which has been the norm for years: GH1 and onward, and which (for image quality and DR) reached its culmination with the S1/S1H.

It's hard to know what market the BMPCC 4K/6 actually serves, except people willing to buy it despite its drawbacks, compared to the amenities offered by other cameras more or less the same size. How long that's sustainable, with the improvements in image quality we're seeing elsewhere, is unknown.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 8:49 pm

John Paines wrote:Hybrid? You lost me there. I'm talking about a camera form which has been the norm for years: GH1 and onward, and which (for image quality and DR) reached its culmination with the S1/S1H.

It's hard to know what market the BMPCC 4K/6 actually serves, except people willing to buy it despite its drawbacks, compared to the amenities offered by other cameras more or less the same size. How long that's sustainable, with the improvements in image quality we're seeing elsewhere, is unknown.


It sounds like you're saying that people are buying the Pocket 4k/6k because of it's form factor. I think people are buying it in spite of it's form factor.

To me, it's easy to know what market the Pocket 4k/6k serves... People who want a RED like image for the price of a GH5. So the people bought the GH5, S1H, etc. in the first place, because they could afford the RED. BM is the next best thing. The S1H is $4000!!!! And it looks like a tourist camera. For Blackmagic users, form factor doesn't play a role, it's utility that takes precedence. The fact that people bought the BMCC 2.5k is proof in my opinion. We're interested in the most affordable and highest image quality. A nuanced bang for buck. It's probably a niche market, the people who buy GH5 and other DSLR type cameras for video want convenience and a "good enough" image. Nothing looks like a BM camera, except RED, ARRI and other high end cameras. Period. I believe the same amount of people who bought the Pocket 4k/6k will by this new camera we're proposing because it will be easier to gimbal. You have to rig up a Pocket 4k/6k anyway, so why not make it easier and more ergonomic?
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 9:12 pm

Que Thompson wrote:To me, it's easy to know what market the Pocket 4k/6k serves... People who want a RED like image for the price of a GH5. ... You have to rig up a Pocket 4k/6k anyway...


I have no idea how typical or atypical I am, but those statements don’t describe why I purchased a Pocket 4K or what I’m doing with it. Is there any publicly available information on who is buying these cameras, or are discussions like this based on personal experience and wishes? This forum appears to involve a fair number of people who are using these cameras commercially, but what percentage of owners is that true of? Anyone know?

I have a suspicion that the market for this camera, at US$1300, is more diverse than appears to be assumed here, but it’s just a suspicion - I’m unaware of any actual numbers on the market for these cameras.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 9:28 pm

robedge wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:To me, it's easy to know what market the Pocket 4k/6k serves... People who want a RED like image for the price of a GH5. ... You have to rig up a Pocket 4k/6k anyway...


I have no idea how typical or atypical I am, but those statements don’t describe why I purchased a Pocket 4K or what I’m doing with it. Is there any publicly available information on who is buying these cameras, or are discussions like this based on personal experience and wishes? This forum appears to involve a fair number of people who are using these cameras commercially, but what percentage of owners is that true of? Anyone know?

I have a suspicion that the market for this camera, at US$1300, is more diverse than appears to be assumed here, but it’s just a suspicion - I’m unaware of any actual numbers on the market for these cameras.


Why else would you buy it?! Free Davinci Resolve? There are cameras with better battery lives, better ergonomics, better everything!! Except image. I'm now lost. What is it that you're doing with it and why did you choose BM over something that would be more convenient to use (DSLR with autofocus, IBIS, articulated screen, etc) or something with an equal image like a RED, but more industry clout? It's either price or image... or... both. No other reason to buy this camera.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 9:43 pm

I think that the bottom line is that it is not easy to know except in very general terms who the market is for this camera in the absence of any publicly available data. However, it’s pretty clear that the biggest selling point over the competition is price. Blackmagic appears to be well aware of this. It’s why DaVinci Resolve Studio, which by the way I don’t use, is included.

What this suggests is that price is an important indicator of who the market is for this camera.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 9:57 pm

robedge wrote:I suspect that Blackmagic knows who its market is, current and potential, and what those people want in a camera. Presumably that will determine future direction.


Where do you think this voice comes from? I think a lot comes from this forum.

robedge wrote:I think that the bottom line is that it is not easy to know who the market is for this camera in the absence of any publicly available data. However, it’s pretty clear that the biggest selling point over the competition is price. Blackmagic appears to be well aware of this. It’s why DaVinci Resolve Studio, which by the way I don’t use, is included. What this suggests is that price is an important indicator of who the market is for this camera.


:lol: How is this different from what I said? It sounds like you want some data that says:

- 18- 55 year old males
- 35-88k income
- 3 years of cinematography experience
- 0-2 short films completed

This is ridiculous. A market is defined by the products "selling points" as you call them and the inherent function of the product. What data is out there on people who buy oranges?

- 15- 105 year old males
- 18-88888k income
- 0-50 years of cinematography experience
- 0-20 short films completed

Ridiculous right?

It's people who want to be healthy (vitamin c) or like citrus... or.... both. You don't need a whitepaper to figure it out.

You still haven't said why you chose BM. I think you're just being contrarian.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 10:42 pm

I'm sure there are plenty of people who like the P4K/6K form factor. Youtubers, wedding videographers, people who film random people in the city at night, people who film their girlfriend in a field with a gimbal...Good on them! I'm not trying to convince them that they don't like what they like.

I'm guessing that a sizable market, though, just wants a tool for narrative filmmaking that they can afford to buy without their partner kicking them out of the house. For those people, the "Pocket" form-factor is less than ideal.

Keep the Pocket. Add a 4K cube around the same price. Kick the Komodo in the nuts.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 10:49 pm

joe12south wrote:I'm sure there are plenty of people who like the P4K/6K form factor. Youtubers, wedding videographers, people who film random people in the city at night, people who film their girlfriend in a field with a gimbal...Good on them! I'm not trying to convince them that they don't like what they like.


"Prefer" is not the issue. It's *one* form factor, it's desirable for some purposes, and there are expectations about what it will and should deliver.

Then again, there are "plenty of people" who are your inferiors by ambition, activity, profession and native ability, as you've so helpfully noted. You'll have to forgive us our deficiencies!
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 10:50 pm

To get back to the OP, I agree that a box form factor would be a good move. I have the original pocket and while its form factor seemed cool back in the day, after I added a cage, monitor, microphone and outboard power, it's not a 'whip out of my jacket pocket while riding my skateboard' camera any longer (not that I would ever do that). I haven't upgraded the camera yet, but I am looking at the pieces I'll need (cage, monitor, etc) and yes, it's not like that form factor is that appealing to me. I'll accept the limitations as others have pointed out and rig around them because at it's price point, the IQ is great. But yes, I would prefer a boxier version. I do have to admit that the current design did allow for that nice 5" touchscreen on the back, though not a foldout or tilting screen.

I did have a moment where I thought about the Panny S1H, but then I woke up back to the world where I'm a guy making documentary art-movies and in no way in need a $4,000 camera to do that. Not when I can get the Pocket 4K at waaay less and produce pleasing images whose resolution will be more than sufficient projected on a gallery wall or on a 32" monitor in a gallery flooded with lights.

But I would buy a boxy camera and pair it with something like one of the BM 12G monitors if I had the choice.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 10:51 pm

John Paines wrote:Hybrid? You lost me there. I'm talking about a camera form which has been the norm for years: GH1 and onward, and which (for image quality and DR) reached its culmination with the S1/S1H.


You're describing the quintessential "hybrid" camera. Good at both stills and video, not great at either. Everything and the kitchen sink jammed into a legacy form factor with menus that would make a Soviet bureaucrat proud. I've owned every GH camera since the GH2 not because of the form factor, but because video cameras wouldn't let me shoot "large" format 24P.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 10:58 pm

It’s not hard to figure out why ppl bought the pocket 4K, remember this camera was on backorder for over a year and one of the hardest cameras to get your hands on. It has pro res 10bit 4:2:2 with raw in 4K @ 60fps. Dual native iso, with davinci resolve bundled. There’s no camera $20,000 below that has those specs, excluding other BM cameras. One could argue red raven but their pro res is for proxies. You can get all of that plus more for $1300. That’s insane, canon has a camera like that and it’s $30,000. Do other camera manufactures have 10bit 4:2:2 yea but you would have to use an external monitor for those features. The pocket 4K/ 6k does it internally. A box form factor is not gonna get you jobs. It’s what you actually put out.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 10:58 pm

John Paines wrote:"Prefer" is not the issue. It's *one* form factor, it's desirable for some purposes, and there are expectations about what it will and should deliver.

Then again, there are "plenty of people" who are your inferiors by ambition, activity, profession and native ability, as you've so helpfully noted. You'll have to forgive us our deficiencies!


I really don't know what point you're trying to make? If it is that you wish the Pocket 4K/6K had some different set of features...okay. Great. Start a thread about that, or buy an SH1, or...um...whatever.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 10:58 pm

joe12south wrote:You're describing the quintessential "hybrid" camera. Good at both stills and video, not great at either. Everything and the kitchen sink jammed into a legacy form factor with menus that would make a Soviet bureaucrat proud.


If I could get the S1H's video and the S1R's still resolution in one camera for $4000 I might submit to the pain of digital menus. But with the hampered nature of the mirrorless scene where the the choice is one or the other AND menu angst, I'll pass. In the meantime, I'll continue to shoot film for stills and BM for video.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 11:06 pm

Chris Shivers wrote:A box form factor is not gonna get you jobs. It’s what you actually put out.

I don't want a box format so I can get jobs...I want it because it's an industrial design I can build *on*, instead of build *around*. That I can *work* with instead of *fight* with.

I think that even many that prefer a stripped-down handheld dslr-style camera find the P4K/6K unwieldy. It's crazy wide and totally unbalanced. If I need to shoot that way, I still use my GH5.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 11:09 pm

Chris Leutger wrote:
joe12south wrote:You're describing the quintessential "hybrid" camera. Good at both stills and video, not great at either. Everything and the kitchen sink jammed into a legacy form factor with menus that would make a Soviet bureaucrat proud.


If I could get the S1H's video and the S1R's still resolution in one camera for $4000 I might submit to the pain of digital menus. But with the hampered nature of the mirrorless scene where the the choice is one or the other AND menu angst, I'll pass. In the meantime, I'll continue to shoot film for stills and BM for video.


I hear you. Hell, if Panasonic puts a real codec in the GH6, I'd be sorely tempted to switch back. Unless BMD makes a roughly $2K box camera. ;)
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 3:40 am

joe12south wrote:
Chris Shivers wrote:A box form factor is not gonna get you jobs. It’s what you actually put out.

I don't want a box format so I can get jobs...I want it because it's an industrial design I can build *on*, instead of build *around*. That I can *work* with instead of *fight* with.


Totally agree about form factor. Still camera form factor is usable for still cameras but not for video/film cameras:

Example of normal expandable design around box:
Image
Image
Image

And this is how most BMPCC/DSLR users use camera:
Image
Image

It was also a lot of explanations in Cinematographer David Leitner discusses his experiences shooting "hand-held" video:
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 5:07 am

I'm on board with Joe (well, kinda...).

I would have prefered a different form factor for my original BMCCs and the BMPCC 4k. I still manage to balance both cameras on a gimbal (Moza Air 2) though and to be frank my rigs don't look much different than those posted by Dmitry. The only advantage that might emerge from a box like form factor might be additional pro features and an uncluttering of the I/O panel.

Would I sell these cameras and take up a new offer by BM that filled the description of a sensor in a box - probably not. Would I have purchased such a camera if it had been offered at the same time or earlier than the DSLR shaped cameras - definitely!
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 5:21 am

Blackmagic presumably had the technical skill to offer a box camera instead of the Pocket 4K and 6K and made a deliberate decision to go with a form that is more DSLR-like. Why do people figure that Blackmagic decided to go this route rather than the box route?
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 6:10 am

robedge wrote:Blackmagic presumably had the technical skill to offer a box camera instead of the Pocket 4K and 6K and made a deliberate decision to go with a form that is more DSLR-like. Why do people figure that Blackmagic decided to go this route rather than the box route?

Probably because they decide that from consumer point of view DSLR form factor looking simpler and so may provide more sales at non professional market. DSLR form factor is limited but in some simple limited situations it may work ok even for video.
Releasing of basic standalone box without any additional handle and monitor (like BMMCC or Z-Cam) is also not too perfect way to go, because it require a lot of additional rigging and customization from customer side. A lot of film makers give up with BMMCC only because it lacks proper accessories in early days.
Camera should be brick-like but must have all required additional modules designed in unified eco-system (at least body + monitor + control handle + battery + OLPF filter). Kinefinity, RED, Canon, Sony, Panasonic done it exact like this. Z-Cam collaborated with PortKeys to provide integration with monitors and now they offer side handle controller.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 7:47 am

I would be very happy with a new camera with the same form factor as the BMCC. At the moment the BMCC has no compatible media to shoot on.

I think people are buying it in spite of it's form factor.

The BMPCC4K has to be rigged to work in most situations.
Once rigged, it's much larger...and a poor form factor. Wanna throw it on a gimbal? GLHF.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 9:47 am

kevin_p wrote:I would be very happy with a new camera with the same form factor as the BMCC. At the moment the BMCC has no compatible media to shoot on.


I have successfully tested the SanDisk Ultra 3D 2TB with the BMCC.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 11:52 am

I disagree.. I love the P4/6K formfactor. Its one of the reasons I went with Blackmagic. They produce cameras that can function without adding anything but a lens to them.

The Ursa Mini line is kind of boxy. But add their shoulderrig, EVF and you are good to go. Nothing more.

I hate rigging. It slows you down. You want to do handheld, then you will have to add this and that. Then gimbal, you have to remove this and those.. Then you want to go to tripod, and you will add it all again but add even more stuff.

I like my rig simple.. And blackmagic provides that. The "modularity" that RED introduced is never really modular. You simply add their back xpander with Audio, SDI and batteryplate and you leave it on forever. Then you move the display around from job to job.

The ridiculess rigging on the Pocket series is always overdone. Dont get me wrong. I understand some need v-mount batteries that last 8 hours. But on SoMe (Facebook, youtube etc) its seems like everybody and their dog is adding these things. They do it because they complain about battery life. Well. Buy good batteries instead. My simple rig lasts 50-60mins. Then I will change the battery and move on. Takes about 30sec if I am bad. I like this better than adding 5kgs of rods, battery mounts, batteries, cables, cages, wireless focussing tools, screen etc. Then with all the addition weight, now you cannot see the screen. So you can barely get into the menu of the camera which also slows you down.

The one thing I think the Pockets are missing is a built-in EVF. Fuji GFX style. This would allow a 3. point of contact with the body and not hold it out in front of you like an iPad. I hate this pose as it introduce so much micro jitter. I like to hold my cameras as teddy bears.. Close to my body. Cuddle them. They should be an extension of my body, not some tool I hold.

Image

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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 1:47 pm

Dennis Sørensen wrote:I disagree.. I love the P4/6K formfactor.

Great. They already make what you need. You lucky so-n-so! ;)

I hate rigging. It slows you down.

Nope. *Bad* rigging slows you down.

I can go to any configuration in seconds. Nothing but a cage is directly attached to my camera. I only have to flip a QR latch and unplug 3 cables (which release from extenders, not fiddling around on the side of the camera) to go from properly balanced shoulder rig to compact handheld. Easy peasy.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 2:21 pm

joe12south wrote:I can go to any configuration in seconds


Okay, so you can do it in seconds, but we're talking about very low budget filmmaking -- who else would be looking at BMD "cinema" cameras? -- often shot by people with limited technical experience and whose primary interest isn't cameras, gear or fooling with gear. Look at the hundreds of features and docs shot in years past on the Canon 5D, for example, some quite estimable (that sound like wedding videos and girls on gimbals in wheat fields, to you?).

For this group, and this presumed BMD market(?), what you want is just too much fuss and trouble. That's the idea behind making the BMPCC 4k/6K cameras more usable, instead of adding a new product line, yet another erector set for gear-obsessives, when there are already plenty available on the market.

But of course they'll do want they want, and maybe you'll get lucky, while the rig-averse continue to rage against the design shortcomings of the hand-held line.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 2:34 pm

joe12south wrote:Great. They already make what you need. You lucky so-n-so! ;)

Well. They dont. Didnt you read the part of the EVF for the Pocket?

joe12south wrote:
Dennis Sørensen wrote:I hate rigging. It slows you down.

Nope. *Bad* rigging slows you down.

I can go to any configuration in seconds. Nothing but a cage is directly attached to my camera. I only have to flip a QR latch and unplug 3 cables (which release from extenders, not fiddling around on the side of the camera) to go from properly balanced shoulder rig to compact handheld. Easy peasy.

Well you say that. But then you gotta pack down the stuff you took off because you dont want it laying in middle of the street or in mud in a field. So gotta have a backpack with you and get that off and on. Find the other stuff. And even a couple of minutes is a long time with doc work where you have to do reactive shooting and not narratively directive shooting, which is what I mostly shoot with the Pocket. For shots that I can control its always the UMP that gets used. But of cause you can be in a different scenario and probably has a different shooting style.

But I am very intrigued of you rig. Do you have a picture? and maybe a list of items? I am never to old to learn new or take my words back because I am proven wrong.

Also. I dont have any problem with the fact you want a cube camera sitting beside the Pocket in the lineup. For your sake I hope they will make it. But what i see 90% of the time is overly rigged rigs - what you probably call "bad rigging". And it is completely unnecessary. Just dont cheap out and get the cheap batteries, dont get the cheap SSDs hanging of the side and such. Keep it simple and internal.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 3:15 pm

Dennis Sørensen wrote: But what i see 90% of the time is overly rigged rigs - what you probably call "bad rigging". And it is completely unnecessary. Just dont cheap out and get the cheap batteries, dont get the cheap SSDs hanging of the side and such. Keep it simple and internal.


We're on the same page. Too many people who never got over LEGO. I hold your country responsible :)

Pocket 4K owners should be required to read Néstor Almendros's autobiography before they start adding stuff :)
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Dennis Sørensen wrote:But I am very intrigued of you rig. Do you have a picture? and maybe a list of items? I am never to old to learn new or take my words back because I am proven wrong.

Okay, at first glance this looks like a beast, but it's all about the details.

Image

1. Only what I use 99% of the time is actually mounted to the camera: top handle, follow focus motor, T5 storage. The top handle slides off a nato rail on the rare occasion I use a gimbal.

2. The camera cage mounts to a VCT plate via a click-in Manfrotto QR that doesn't require sliding. Super quick.

Image

3. Everything else is mounted to the VCT plate, which of course can click on and off a tripod in a snap. Everything is powered from that one big battery, which balances the rig.

4. The cables that connect to the camera connect to short extension cables instead. That means I can disconnect those three cables super quick without futzing around or damaging the camera connectors.

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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 5:49 pm

:shock:
Which is what I said, and even though this is what I was talking about, there is not too much comparison between your actions at the moment compared to some not around here.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 6:20 pm

joe12south wrote:
That said, one of my biggest beefs with it is the form factor. While I know that many people like the "pocket" form, even my handheld use is rigged. I would much prefer a "cube" designed to be the core of a rig.


I think Komodo is what you want.

I personally detest the "cube" or sensor in a box camera. It always makes for ungainly an inelegant rigs with the rigging you're forced to add on.

This has always been RED's mentality, which many of the higher end users don't like. They've attempted to address this with the Ranger, and the custom builds for their super users like Bay and Fincher.

I also hate using the Alexa Mini for the same reason. It's good for a gimbal but it's a terrible camera for everyday functional life on set. The reason it was initially so successful was because it had better features than the existing Alexa. They eventually started matching the feature set's in the more recent Alexa iterations, but that camera isn't very "nice" to use at all.

I too prefer a more traditional camera for most work. The only time the cube is good is for gimbal / head ' rig work. In all other instances it requires (usually after market) accessories and builds to make it functional, usually only emulating what a classic camera design would have except usually not as well done or secure or finished.

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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 7:49 pm

John Brawley wrote:
joe12south wrote:I too prefer a more traditional camera for most work.

That's why its great to have different cameras in different form factors. The Ursa and Pocket lines both clearly have their place. What's missing is a cube with comparable guts.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 7:54 pm

John Brawley wrote:The only time the cube is good is for gimbal / head ' rig work. In all other instances it requires (usually after market) accessories and builds to make it functional, usually only emulating what a classic camera design would have except usually not as well done or secure or finished.

JB


This is precisely what a lot of people complain about with Blackmagic cameras. Exactly this... Aftermarket accessories and builds to make it functional... So why not just make it a cube? We have to add a field monitor, battery, etc. anyway... This applies to Pocket & Micro lines. Sure, technically, you can shoot something using only the Pocket 4k/6k camera, but not anything serious. Let's be honest here.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 8:20 pm

Que Thompson wrote:
John Brawley wrote:The only time the cube is good is for gimbal / head ' rig work. In all other instances it requires (usually after market) accessories and builds to make it functional, usually only emulating what a classic camera design would have except usually not as well done or secure or finished.

JB


This is precisely what a lot of people complain about with Blackmagic cameras. Exactly this... Aftermarket accessories and builds to make it functional... So why not just make it a cube? We have to add a field monitor, battery, etc. anyway... This applies to Pocket & Micro lines. Sure, technically, you can shoot something using only the Pocket 4k/6k camera, but not anything serious. Let's be honest here.

But that’s with any camera. You have to add rails, shoulder rig, monitor, follow focus, matte box, etc. and what serious thing you can’t shoot with the pocket 4K? I agree the body is a little wierd, but if the pocket 4K can’t be on a gimbal then use a camera that is suitable. This is what they do in the real world. It’s not one size fits all, you have cameras for specific purposes.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 8:42 pm

Chris Shivers wrote:and what serious thing you can’t shoot with the pocket 4K?


without rigging it up? you tell me... you'll have to hold it in front of your face and change the battery every 20 minutes.

if you rig it up you can shoot anything. which is my point.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 9:29 pm

Que Thompson wrote:
Chris Shivers wrote:and what serious thing you can’t shoot with the pocket 4K?


without rigging it up? you tell me... you'll have to hold it in front of your face and change the battery every 20 minutes.

if you rig it up you can shoot anything. which is my point.


Come on now... We have done almost 20 hours of shooting for a documentary with a naked pocket4K... What you need is something to shoot and the right light, the camera is a tool, and no camera will ever be perfect.

Do you need an external monitor to shoot? No, you can put a hand to block the sun and either bend down or look up.
Do you need an extra battery? No. How many time in a professional setting you have takes that are longer than 40 minutes?!
Do you need rods and a matte box? What about a simple lens hood and a screw on filter?
Can you put a naked 4K on a tripod, or a gimbal? Sure!

Is it more convenient in some specific settings to have a never ending battery, external monitors, 4x5 filters, etc? Sure. Do you "need" them to shoot something great? No.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 9:37 pm

youlikeny wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:
Chris Shivers wrote:and what serious thing you can’t shoot with the pocket 4K?


without rigging it up? you tell me... you'll have to hold it in front of your face and change the battery every 20 minutes.

if you rig it up you can shoot anything. which is my point.


Come on now... We have done almost 20 hours of shooting for a documentary with a naked pocket4K... What you need is something to shoot and the right light, the camera is a tool, and no camera will ever be perfect.

Do you need an external monitor to shoot? No, you can put a hand to block the sun and either bend down or look up.
Do you need an extra battery? No. How many time in a professional setting you have takes that are longer than 40 minutes?!
Do you need rods and a matte box? What about a simple lens hood and a screw on filter?
Can you put a naked 4K on a tripod, or a gimbal? Sure!

Is it more convenient in some specific settings to have a never ending battery, external monitors, 4x5 filters, etc? Sure. Do you "need" them to shoot something great? No.


Nice to see a few people with experience with these cameras talking common sense :)
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 9:40 pm

youlikeny wrote:Come on now... We have done almost 20 hours of shooting for a documentary with a naked pocket4K... What you need is something to shoot and the right light, the camera is a tool, and no camera will ever be perfect.

Do you need an external monitor to shoot? No, you can put a hand to block the sun and either bend down or look up.
Do you need an extra battery? No. How many time in a professional setting you have takes that are longer than 40 minutes?!
Do you need rods and a matte box? What about a simple lens hood and a screw on filter?
Can you put a naked 4K on a tripod, or a gimbal? Sure!

Is it more convenient in some specific settings to have a never ending battery, external monitors, 4x5 filters, etc? Sure. Do you "need" them to shoot something great? No.

That sounds absolutely terrible. I don't want to be fighting with tools that are working against me, I want tools that disappear so I can focus on what actually matters...what's happening in front of the camera.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 9:42 pm

youlikeny wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:
Chris Shivers wrote:and what serious thing you can’t shoot with the pocket 4K?


without rigging it up? you tell me... you'll have to hold it in front of your face and change the battery every 20 minutes.

if you rig it up you can shoot anything. which is my point.


Come on now... We have done almost 20 hours of shooting for a documentary with a naked pocket4K... What you need is something to shoot and the right light, the camera is a tool, and no camera will ever be perfect.

Do you need an external monitor to shoot? No, you can put a hand to block the sun and either bend down or look up.
Do you need an extra battery? No. How many time in a professional setting you have takes that are longer than 40 minutes?!
Do you need rods and a matte box? What about a simple lens hood and a screw on filter?
Can you put a naked 4K on a tripod, or a gimbal? Sure!

Is it more convenient in some specific settings to have a never ending battery, external monitors, 4x5 filters, etc? Sure. Do you "need" them to shoot something great? No.



You're arguments are like saying "do we need cars and airplanes?" No, we don't, but they makes our lives much easier don't they. "put a hand to block the sun...." :lol: i'm done.
Last edited by Que Thompson on Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 9:43 pm

Chris Shivers wrote:I agree the body is a little wierd, but if the pocket 4K can’t be on a gimbal then use a camera that is suitable. This is what they do in the real world. It’s not one size fits all, you have cameras for specific purposes.

The "real world" for many is not having the luxury of dedicated cameras for specific use cases. A "core" that can be adapted to virtually any use is desirable for those people.
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 9:44 pm

Que Thompson wrote:You're arguments are like saying "do we need cars and airplanes?" No, we don't, but if makes our lives much easier don't they. "put a hand to block the sun...." :lol: i'm done.

Why are folks cryin' about batteries...handcrankin' worked fine! ;)
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Re: BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 9:47 pm

joe12south wrote:That sounds absolutely terrible. I don't want to be fighting with tools that are working against me, I want tools that disappear so I can focus on what actually matters...what's happening in front of the camera.



That's the point... Countless cables running around, multiple monitors, mounts, accessories, are just extra tools... You can't beat a naked camera to focus on what's in front of it. Your only worry will be to press record.
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