Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

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rick.lang

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 5:52 pm

Thanks, Brad and Rob. I use the front knobs as the mix faders and the side knob to set the preamp gain. I am getting used to it and must admit I found it all confusing until I actually started working with the recorder. I’m sure I’ve still got a lot to learn.

For example, it doesn’t matter how many times I read about re-recording a track later at a different sound level. I’ve never managed to pull it off. Maybe it’s because I’m using 32bit or maybe I have a mental block, but I can’t do it. With 32bit recording, why would I need that anyway? Unless I re-recorded as 24bit for convenience?
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 6:00 pm

I have an ElectroVoice RE20. On my OG MixPre3 using a Cloudlifter made a big difference in the sound. When I initially got the mic I was thinking that it should be fine but I was needing to push the levels higher than I anticipated and it was a little noisy. After conferring with Sweetwater, I got the Cloudlifter and the recording quality was much better. In fact, I forgot the CL for my group's last podcast and the person who does the editing noticed straight away. Since I just got the new generation Mixpre 3 I'll have to test it out to see if it's still necessary.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 6:06 pm

Chris, that would be very good feedback; thanks. And you might consider also using 32bit audio and boost in post if needed… perhaps? I am feeling the CloudLifter isn’t need by anyone using 32bit audio as it’s very easy to rescue low levels as well as peak levels in post.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 6:20 pm

Interesting Kim. Let’s see what Chris concludes with his test if he also uses 32bit on the MixPre series II.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 6:23 pm

rick.lang wrote:For example, it doesn’t matter how many times I read about re-recording a track later at a different sound level. I’ve never managed to pull it off. Maybe it’s because I’m using 32bit or maybe I have a mental block, but I can’t do it. With 32bit recording, why would I need that anyway? Unless I re-recorded as 24bit for convenience?


Are you talking about remixing a stereo mix? I don’t need this function, but useful if you have to distribute a mix quickly, are unhappy with the mix and don’t want to spend time bringing it into a DAW.

Curtis Judd’s video on remixing in the recorder:

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 7:15 pm

Thanks, Rob! I was mixed up about the sequence as the manual talks about selecting the isolated tracks which I did, but I didn’t realize that had to be done before you hit the Re-Mix LR button as hitting that button starts the re-recording immediately. You really want to know how you want the ‘faders’ set on each isolated tract and do that first. Hope I’ve got that correct. I tried a couple of variations on a test and it went fine.

Well. I guess that’s one less mystery in life… I must confess i have one more mystery:

The captive ¼-20 screw in the top of the MixPre… I can try to pull it out but it snaps back. How do I use that screw to attach a camera on top? There’s an Allen wrench but I’ve no idea where to shove it.

Edit:
I see you push the wrench through the bottom hole and the top screw is revealed. Since I had the MixPre already on a stand, this wasn’t obvious!
Last edited by rick.lang on Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 7:18 pm

Kim Janson wrote:BTW, I must say so far my experience with SD customer service is pretty good.


Sound Devices built its business on customer service. Before the MixPre, most of its clients worked in film, television and radio production. Lots of professional sound people who can’t afford gear failures in the middle of a shoot. The company’s field recorders were expensive, and its clientele was demanding.

Last year, I was at a trade show in New York and got talking to the guy at the Sound Devices booth. No name tag, no hint of his role in the company. I knew who he was. It was John Tatooles, co-founder of the company, a long way from Wisconsin manning a trade show booth. Just chatting with customers.

When Sound Devices released the MixPre recorder/mixer/interfaces, which cost a lot less than the company’s core field recorders, I wondered whether customer service would suffer. Seems like it’s doing fine.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 9:53 pm

I have a lot of time for Julian Krause, who in this video talks about the Shure SM7B specifically:

Do you really need a Cloudlifter or FetHead (ft. Shure SM7B)

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 10:10 pm

Kim, thank you for that video that is a very good comparison of the Electro Voice RE20 and the Shure SM7B.

YMMV but IMHO, I immediately felt the CloudLifter coloured the voice. It may still be a good idea if it helps keep noise levels under control and allows you to be a little further from the mic, but I personally would not order the CloudLifter until I was certain it was a necessary option.

I don’t know how far the MixPre-II pre-amps will allow me to raise levels on a dynamic mic, but the MixPre in general has a good reputation for boosting the audio. If needed, I would use the dynamic mics close to the voice which might reduce the appeal of the CloudLifter.

Interesting how well the RE20 stayed relatively flat even used up close. I think it would take some practice for an actor using the SM7B to speak at an optimum distance without resulting in too much bass. Using the RE20 would be easier in that regard as you can be assured the voice over or ADR will match the film.

My Sennheiser MKH416 probably adds some colour too used up close. When I tried it, it sounded interesting, but not flat. It would work well for Voiceover but need care when used close if doing ADR. When I did my actual ADR it wasn’t up close and was fine. Perhaps it was a foot or two away... which is close for a shotgun usually meters away.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 10:36 pm

Rob, the noise floor on the MixPre is -130 dBV (-128 dBu) which is similar to the CloudLifter and lower than the Zoom H5 so following Julian’s flowchart, he’s concluding a CloudLifter is not going to be a noticeable improvement. I agree with his demonstration of the Shure SM7B recording to the H5, the CloudLifter was helpful to reduce noise levels.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 11:18 pm

Kim Janson wrote:I use also transformer with moving coil cartridge on record player. The discrete phone preamp can handle the cartridge just fine as it is, but using less gain on it and transformer just provides much better result.


Exactly, my understanding is that the sensitivity of the RE20 and Shure SMB7 are near the limits of certain recorders. I read a lot on various forums (jwsound, gearslutz, tapersection) about this and a Cloudlifter seemed to be what was used to give you extra gain. I talked to Sweetwater and they agreed and I bought the Cloudlifter. It worked great. We had three people in a room about 3-4 feet away and our podcast sound had less hiss and background noise and I wasn't riding the levels near their top end any longer. But that was the original Mixpre3 which I've replaced with the new version which I think is superior to the old version in this regard. I'll do some tests and see whether I think the Cloudlifter is still needed. I don't mind using it and I don't think it colors the sound but yeah, if I could sell and not use one piece of gear, that would be great.

I tried the Sennheiser MKE600 and a couple other cheap podcast mics, but they didn't sound great and picked up lots of background noise. The RE20 was much better in that regard. I love the sound of the RE20.

And yes, my Fidelity Research phono cartridge requires me to use a step-up transformer to my tube phono stage! Maybe that explains why I like the RE20...
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Jan 28, 2020 11:32 pm

rick.lang wrote:Rob, the noise floor on the MixPre is -130 dBV (-128 dBu) which is similar to the CloudLifter and lower than the Zoom H5 so following Julian’s flowchart, he’s concluding a CloudLifter is not going to be a noticeable improvement. I agree with his demonstration of the Shure SM7B recording to the H5, the CloudLifter was helpful to reduce noise levels.


I think that Krause’s conclusion is that the SM7B is likely to sound better with a Cloudlifter unless, in the case of talking, one is speaking quite close to the mike. That said, I think that the takeaway from his video is to try the mike without and with one. I think it’s interesting that Manchester uses one, but Huang appears not to. I think that they both know what they are doing. Also, note that Huang is a singer and instrument player as well as a presenter.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 7:02 am

The Mixpre first series uses the AsahiKasei AKM557x series ADC.
The ADC support both PCM and DSD 24/32-bit output.
SoundDevices went with 32-bit internal precision for the ADC but 24-bit PCM and channel summation to gain dynamic range for recording and USB I/O.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 12:39 pm

Kim Janson wrote:The 10T seems to have 32 bit available when working as USB DAC.


Ahh ok. Thats great,
Perhaps something have changed along the way.

I believe the first series only did 16 & 24-bit up to 96KHz while the II-series did up to 96 as well but managed 16, 24 and 32-bit Int and float over USB I/O.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 2:13 pm

Kim Janson wrote:I really would like to understand it, as it is evident from how many times I edited this after I started thinking about it.


Sound Devices’s patent is a public document, available on the internet. You may find the following exchange interesting. Note that one of the participants, Paul Isaacs, works for Sound Devices: https://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/top ... amic-range
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 2:50 pm

I post earlier image chart extracted from their patent PDF (this is for 3xADC design). I really would like to know if they use 2x or 3x ADC in their current products.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 3:00 pm

I believe Paul stated 2 ADCs in some comment over at GS or JW.
But their patent is for multiples ie three but "at least 2". This is to protect themselves from other kind of patent applications which might find a way to create a something close to their solution.

You would be more then welcome to open your up and take some photos of it for us too look at :)
I've been searching the web but never found any II-series internal PCB photos.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 4:41 pm

Some photos of MixPre (first gen) internal components where posted here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=97842&start=300#p553982
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 7:23 pm

Got curious about that Apollo 8 recording interface used to produce all that Grammy award-winning music in a small bedroom. It might be a small room, but the equipment is respectable.

https://www.uaudio.com/audio-interfaces/apollo-8.html
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 7:42 pm

rick.lang wrote:Got curious about that Apollo 8 recording interface used to produce all that Grammy award-winning music in a small bedroom. It might be a small room, but the equipment is respectable.

https://www.uaudio.com/audio-interfaces/apollo-8.html


You obviously don’t spend enough time reading the expert opinions on Gearslutz :)
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 8:43 pm

Rob, that’s true, I’m not on GearSlutz, just Taper. Care to share the consensus opinion on GearSlutz re the Apollo 8?
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 10:15 pm

rick.lang wrote:Rob, that’s true, I’m not on GearSlutz, just Taper. Care to share the consensus opinion on GearSlutz re the Apollo 8?


Gearslutz doesn’t do consensus :)
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 11:07 pm

Jonathan Wyner is a terrific educator who has mastered music for top artists. He does a video series for iZotope. This one, uploaded yesterday, is the best effort that I’ve seen at explaining what loudness standards are and how they relate to metering. Everything that he says applies to film soundtracks. The discussion from 17:55 - 19:40 deals with a feature specific to iZotope software, but the rest of the video is of general application.


“Loudness Metering and Visualizations in Mastering”

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 2:48 pm

Just a few minutes ago the MixPre-10 II, a Schoeps Colette, Ambient Quickpole QSM and a set of Tentacle Sync devices arrived in my studio. Hope I'll get some time for testing things out soon.
For now I am struggling to add the straight cable kit to the Ambient Quickpole :D
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 3:25 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Just a few minutes ago the MixPre-10 II, a Schoeps Colette, Ambient Quickpole QSM and a set of Tentacle Sync devices arrived in my studio. Hope I'll get some time for testing things out soon.
For now I am struggling to add the straight cable kit to the Ambient Quickpole :D


Cool. Which Tentacle Sync devices did you get and how are you going to use them?
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 3:33 pm

I'm also looking forward to hearing your experiences with the Tentacles (I think Rick uses them too).

I'm planning to get a set of Sync E boxes for multicamera: one for each camera and one for my (first generation) MixPre 6, which doesn't have internal timecode. And while I'm not planning to use lav mics very much I may get the new Track E when it comes out, since I can also use it for binaural recording. Given the limitations of my cameras and recorder, I'll have to keep the Sync E devices plugged into the cameras and recorder fulltime to ensure sync. That's expensive (three Tentacle Syncs=more than $1,000 Canadian dollars) and I've been wavering about just sticking to my usual technique of a clapperboard (or even clapped hands), but there are some situations such as concerts where that's not an option.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 3:37 pm

robedge wrote:Cool. Which Tentacle Sync devices did you get and how are you going to use them?


It's the Sync E standard set + a single set (so 3 units) + some brackets, bodypack Y-adapter, microphone Y-adapter, tentacle to iphone setup, tentacle to BNC and DSLR cables

We are planning to put the whole audio package into our rental service and for our own productions when there are multi-cam shootings.
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Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 4:50 pm

Congratulations, Robert. Brad, I agree the prices are high, but they do a very good job and last more than a day. The Tentacle app is free and essential. Since the iPhone resets its clock every time it boots, and the Tentacle app will reset the Tentacle clock to your iPhone via Bluetooth, it’s a very easy to be very accurate.

One way to reduce the cost of the Tentacle Sync E: I have proven the clock in the MixPre-6 II firmware release 6 is very good and once you have jammed it to a Tentacle vía Aux1, you can remove the Tentacle knowing the MixPre will hold accuracy for hours. I’d recommend a resync at a lunch break.

I do agree that each BMD camera should have a dedicated Tentacle driving the Timecode so there is no camera drift.

Once you start using these, whether for multicam or single camera with dual recording you’ll never go back.

I feel the same way about the MixPre. If I want ambient sound, I can put the Sennheiser MKH on the camera, but when I need quality, all my own mics feed the MixPre with, because I’m a stupid lazy loner, 32bit audio.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 6:20 pm

rick.lang wrote:I have proven the clock in the MixPre-6 II firmware release 6 is very good and once you have jammed it to a Tentacle vía Aux1, you can remove the Tentacle knowing the MixPre will hold accuracy for hours. I’d recommend a resync at a lunch break.

I do agree that each BMD camera should have a dedicated Tentacle driving the Timecode so there is no camera drift.


Did you ever use a timecode generator to jam sync your original MixPre? If so, and if the timecode generator was removed, did the MixPre maintain accuracy? If there was drift, how much? Did the MixPre have to be jammed again if it was turned off and restarted?

I know what’s recommended, but if you tested I’d nevertheless love to know the answers to those questions.

Same questions for jamming the Pocket 4K, if you’re using that camera.

Thanks
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 6:36 pm

Not a rigorous test, but I set the time in my Pocket 4K to a time reference several days ago, and the camera has continually lost time, maybe 2 seconds per day. I would expect that after a jam sync my camera would lose maybe 2 frames per hour. But as I said, this has not been a rigorous test, offered FWIW.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 6:52 pm

Michael_Andreas wrote:Not a rigorous test, but I set the time in my Pocket 4K to a time reference several days ago, and the camera has continually lost time, maybe 2 seconds per day. I would expect that after a jam sync my camera would lose maybe 2 frames per hour. But as I said, this has not been a rigorous test, offered FWIW.


May not be rigorous, but it’s a pretty clear message :)
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Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 7:31 pm

Rob, I only have the MixPre-6 II, not the original. I tested turning the MixPre off and on again and it maintains Timecode. Again I would still reset it after several hours. I’ll turn it Off for a few hours now and check later in the day.

I concur with Michael’s test on the camera. It will drift a little over time and best to leave the Tentacle on the camera and have perfect results.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 8:17 pm

rick.lang wrote:Rob, I only have the MixPre-6 II, not the original. I tested turning the MixPre off and on again and it maintains Timecode. Again I would still reset it after several hours. I’ll turn it Off for a few hours now and check later in the day.

I concur with Michael’s test on the camera. It will drift a little over time and best to leave the Tentacle on the camera and have perfect results.


Thanks. I have a Sound Devices field recorder with Ambient built in. With a LEMO 5-pin to 3.5mm cable, it could be used as a master for a Pocket 4K, and indeed for a MixPre, version I.

The cable is expensive (US$50-75) but I may pick one up and experiment a bit. I’ve used this recorder as a master/jammer in the past, but I just don’t feel a pressing need to use timecode and the accompanying additional gear with a single Pocket 4K. Maybe experimenting a bit will change my mind :)
Last edited by robedge on Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 8:29 pm

Yes only critical when recording off-camera where you need to match spoken words to visual footage of the speaker. Although you can always sync manually; it just takes longer.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 10:24 pm

Rob, I jam synced the MixPre-6 II over two hours ago, removed the Tentacle, turned Off the MixPre and waited. I’ve just turned it On the checked sync: perfect.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 10:26 pm

rick.lang wrote:Yes only critical when recording off-camera where you need to match spoken words to visual footage of the speaker. Although you can always sync manually; it just takes longer.


Rick, have you tried running a cable straight from your MixPre series II recorder to your Blackmagic camera to record timecode? I believe that it takes the same cable as a Sound Devices field recorder, Lemo 5-pin to TRS 3.5mm jack.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 10:28 pm

rick.lang wrote:Rob, I jam synced the MixPre-6 II over two hours ago, removed the Tentacle, turned Off the MixPre and waited. I’ve just turned it On the checked sync: perfect.


Good. Thanks very much. Now I want to get a Lemo to TRS cable and find out whether the same thing will happen if I use my 702T field recorder to jam sync a version I MixPre.
Last edited by robedge on Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 10:29 pm

No, I haven’t done that. That would work but I don’t want my camera tethered to the recorder. I could try it someday. I’m sure that will work too. Could save someone money... including me if I ever get a third camera (please, Lord, not another camera!).
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Jan 30, 2020 11:07 pm

rick.lang wrote:No, I haven’t done that. That would work but I don’t want my camera tethered to the recorder. I could try it someday. I’m sure that will work too. Could save someone money... including me if I ever get a third camera (please, Lord, not another camera!).


When you’re shooting with one camera, what are you getting from timecode that you wouldn’t get just by routing the sound from your MixPre to the camera and its storage? Would you go this route if you weren’t concerned about tethering?
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostFri Jan 31, 2020 1:53 pm

Rob, it’s a mobility and device placement concern. In my last shoot the MixPre was perhaps 10 meters away from the camera.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Feb 01, 2020 1:34 pm

Update post regarding turning off the MixPre:

The MixPre, powered Off, with no Tenracle mounted to force sync, will retain an accurate generated Timecode that has been jammed to a Tentacle for a few hours. But at some point, when you turn the MixPre On, it reverts back to its own clock and you need to be jam synced again. I know it can be Off for a couple of hours and I think I tested around three to four hours and it was fine.

My guidance would be not to rely on the MixPre retaining jammed Timecode after the MixPre has been powered off for more than an hour or two to be safe. Since it only takes a few seconds to resync, please resync after a significant break such as lunch or set changes before you resume recording.

If you have the sled that takes those Sony NP-F970 batteries, you can likely run all day without turning the MixPre Off. I still jam sync anyway after a long break, just to be safe.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Feb 01, 2020 1:42 pm

rick.lang wrote:Update post regarding turning off the MixPre:


Very helpful info, thanks.

Still not sure whether I want to go the timecode route, but I’m awaiting advice from my usual vendor on the Tentacle Sync E, Ambient Nano and Timecode Systems Ultra Sync.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Feb 04, 2020 6:59 pm

SD have some block diagrams for the larger recorders but I’ve never seen anything for the MixPre I/II-series.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSun Feb 09, 2020 10:11 am

Kim Janson wrote:BTW, does your power switch look like this, so deep in? It is pretty much inbossible to operate by finger when USB-C is connected.

Yep, that is idiotic SD power switch is the same for all models. Worst placement ever and not enough height to grab. In perfect world they should use button instead toggle and place it in front panel instead of SD logo label.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSun Feb 09, 2020 11:24 am

Maybe connect Follow focus to that gear?
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSun Feb 09, 2020 12:43 pm

Kim Janson wrote:BTW, does your power switch look like this, so deep in? It is pretty much impossible to operate by finger when USB-C is connected.


Yes it's really pathetic.
I first thought it was a main physical power feed and the led lit SD-logo on the front was the logical switch.
But that poor tiny (s)witch on the side even appears to be a logical switch.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSun Feb 09, 2020 2:30 pm

Kim, the MixPre series II has a larger knob and it doesn’t bother me. The power switch is a PITA. I believe all audio Out is digital and recorded and mixed tracks are digital.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSun Feb 09, 2020 3:21 pm

What I like about the tiny, hard-to-reach power switch is that while it's a pain to switch the unit on, there's very little risk that you'll ever switch it off accidentally.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSun Feb 09, 2020 11:04 pm

It's hard to turn on and when I'm trying to move gear quickly, it's hard to turn off. It was one of those things I remember so many people complaining about on the first series, that I was surprised they didn't change that for the new ones. There's been plenty of times that I'm doing a quick setup and think I've got that turned on and after focusing the camera, look to the Mixpre to hit record, and it's not on. Ugh. But still, I love the ease of use of the thing overall. I haven't used the USB-C port and hope I never do. Or it's going to be as scratched up as Kim's.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSun Feb 23, 2020 12:31 pm

That is really cool!
I guess it may fit to Mixpre6, but will not fit to Mixpre3. Mixpre3 minijacks layout is different.
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