Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

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timbutt2

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Jan 17, 2020 1:34 am

Deyan Parouchev wrote:If it's possible I prefer to keep the DNG option but to have the new color science v4 rather than the v3 in the genuine 4,6K. It will be easier to match with the actual BM lineup. Is it possible for BM to upgrade the color science as they already did in the past for this camera ?

Since I am using the UM4.6K as a B-Camera with the G2 in ProRes shooting mode it would be absolutely fantastic if they could get CS4 on to it to make color matching that much easier. Especially if I have to just hand off the footage to a client for them to do the post work.

With CinemaDNG you can choose CS4 in the RAW tab of Resolve. However, it would be nicer to be able to have it natively next in CS4.


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Deyan Parouchev

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSat Jan 18, 2020 2:02 pm

Is it possible to propose this update to BM ? Captain Cook ? The color science v4 should be easy and painless to integrate and will be very helpfull obviously...
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Rolands Briedis

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostThu Jan 23, 2020 1:14 pm

Yes, I think it would be possible. I would even donate some money to Blackmagic so they can implement this...

Deyan Parouchev wrote:Is it possible to propose this update to BM ? Captain Cook ? The color science v4 should be easy and painless to integrate and will be very helpfull obviously...
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Denis Kazlowski

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSat Jan 25, 2020 10:09 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
You might have set a record for inanity here...


Blatant, ad-hominem attack. You can disagree, but why disagree this way?
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Andrew Toul

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostMon Feb 03, 2020 5:51 pm

What's new in Blackmagic RAW 1.6.1

Added Blackmagic URSA Broadcast support.

I think it's a dead end
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Stephen Press

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostMon Feb 03, 2020 5:53 pm

Be nice if they would just admit it.
"A cameraman with out a camera is just a man"
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostMon Feb 03, 2020 10:06 pm

Stephen Press wrote:Be nice if they would just admit it.


You still got nab

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Krzysztof Gluszek

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSun Feb 16, 2020 8:23 pm

Hi, i have original UM 4.6k and pro G1. I would like to shoot both in prores in multicam. As we cant have color science v4 on old 4.6K the question is if there is any way to have old color science v3 on PRO G1? Was sc v4 on PRO G1 introduced via some firmware update or was there from the beginning? Is it any way to downgrade pro G1 from sc v4 to sc v3? Thanks!
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSun Feb 16, 2020 9:06 pm

Krzysztof Gluszek wrote:Hi, i have original UM 4.6k and pro G1. I would like to shoot both in prores in multicam. As we cant have color science v4 on old 4.6K the question is if there is any way to have old color science v3 on PRO G1? Was sc v4 on PRO G1 introduced via some firmware update or was there from the beginning? Is it any way to downgrade pro G1 from sc v4 to sc v3? Thanks!

CS4 was added in a firmware update. Honestly the original 4.6K could easily have that same CS4 update. However, it’s looking like it won’t happen. It’s a bummer. I just grade the original 4.6K to match the UMPG2 when I do multi-camera shoots with them.


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Krzysztof Gluszek

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSun Feb 16, 2020 9:42 pm

So maybe some solution would be just downgrade PRO G1 to firmware pre-CS change...


I started the project which contains a lot of green screen multicam work. I realised that cs V3 is better for this than v4, i mean green color is just more green while skintones looks nice in both versions. I am not very good colorist and i had some difficulties in grading both color sciences to match perfectly...

EDIT: firmware 6.0 introduced cs v4 to pro g1. So downgrading to 5.something should bring v3 back...
unfortunatelly it will loose braw.... But theoretically it should make prores to look the same in 4.6k non pro and pro g1...
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSun Feb 16, 2020 10:33 pm

And you can always revert to the latest firmware when your project is complete.
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Krzysztof Gluszek

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostMon Feb 17, 2020 9:52 pm

Yeah, i have just downgraded my pro g1 to firmware 5.1.1, both cameras are matched perfectly in prores now. I am still using CDNG 4:1 instead of braw so in raw i can have color science v4 in resolve. This combination seems to be the best solution for someone who owns both old 4.6k and pro g1.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostMon Feb 17, 2020 10:01 pm

Krzysztof Gluszek wrote:Yeah, i have just downgraded my pro g1 to firmware 5.1.1, both cameras are matched perfectly in prores now. I am still using CDNG 4:1 instead of braw so in raw i can have color science v4 in resolve. This combination seems to be the best solution for someone who owns both old 4.6k and pro g1.

Cool! Yeah, I have old 4.6K and Pro G2. So no luck with easy matching without grading to match. Would be great if BMD just did a color science update for the original 4.6K. Either way, here’s looking to the future.


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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Mar 06, 2020 2:09 pm

With the Video Assist 12G update today and BRAW for the Canon and Panasonic Cameras through the VA12G...

I'm calling it. RIP the hope for BRAW on the UM4.6K. Now going to go shoot something with both cameras and UHD ProRes 422 HQ on the UM4.6K while using BRAW on the G2. Tomorrow same deal.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Mar 06, 2020 2:40 pm

True, as of now however the VA doesn’t record braw from any BM camera including the G2.

It’s also true that the respective raw formats from Panasonic and Canon are being stored as braw in the VA.

Doesn’t this mean that any streamable raw format is game for braw recording so long as the bandwidth is supported?

Good Luck
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Krzysztof Gluszek

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Mar 06, 2020 3:06 pm

Yeah... so as an owner of original 4.6K and Pro G1 who shot multicam recently I have downgraded g1 to pre braw firmware, now color science is matched perfectly, both cameras records the same prores and the same CDNG which i really like a lot. Both cameras records to double cfast- SSD adapters to very cheap now fast and reliable samsung evo SSDs... this setup will work for me i think for the next two years at least... good bye braw workflow for now.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Mar 06, 2020 6:43 pm

With the release of Blackmagic RAW 1.7 Is there hope to see BRAW implemented in Ursa mini 4.6k?
Please Blackmagic Design don't leave us in the dark. I will use 4.6k Ursa mini and I can't match it to my Pocket 6K BRAW... I have to shoot Progress only for both because Cinema DNG is too big for my workflow. But I would like to keep Cinema DNG as an option for bigger projects, for sure.
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Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Mar 06, 2020 11:02 pm

Well I shot the interviews in BRAW and CDNG today just to make color matching easier. Tomorrow I have no choice, I need to shoot UHD ProRes to conserve space.
ImageImage


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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSat Mar 07, 2020 5:24 pm

Hello guys, I need suggestions before taking a decision. Actually I own a URSA Mini 4.6k the no pro version. As we all know there is very less or no hope that it will get the braw update in future. I am very confused that weather should I sell Ursa and buy pocket 6k or keep the Ursa. Is pocket 6k is good for feature film shoots as comparison to pocket 6k. Is pocket 6k is better camera than non pro version of 4.6k. I know the dynamic range could be the issue or the cinema DNG. Suggest me what should I do. I have a body exchange offer with pocket 6k as well.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSun Mar 08, 2020 10:46 pm

When BM discontinued The Ursa mini 4.6k back last year, That was the death nail for any form of future firmware support for this product, So forget this BRaw update,
It ain't gonna happen!
BM's approach has worked, No positive news for what nearly two years? And allow the mutterings to slowly fade away as it has today.
It's Old news and you know they say about old news, Nobody in a position of power needs to care.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostMon Mar 09, 2020 12:24 am

I don't think they have handled it well at all. 568 posts on this one thread alone.
What continues to annoy me is the lack of a solid "no" from BM.
If they can't or its not economic, fine. Its a bit of a pain but, fine.
Just say No.
And then we can move on.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostMon Mar 09, 2020 2:00 am

It’s a shame that wonderful camera with 15 stops can’t shoot BRAW or at least output it through SDI for the BMVA12G7 to record. What a great companion to my 13 stop BMPCC4K. We are still patiently waiting but I understand it may not happen. Both cameras can still work together.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Mar 13, 2020 4:10 am

Hello guys, I need suggestions before taking a decision. Actually I own a URSA Mini 4.6k the no pro version. As we all know there is very less or no hope that it will get the braw update in future. I am very confused that weather should I sell Ursa and buy pocket 6k or keep the Ursa. Is pocket 6k is good for feature film shoots as comparison to pocket 6k. Is pocket 6k is better camera than non pro version of 4.6k. I know the dynamic range could be the issue or the cinema DNG. Suggest me what should I do. I have a body exchange offer with pocket 6k as well.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Mar 13, 2020 10:18 pm

What is your workflow, who are your clients? The film business is a business. Will the pocket 6K make you more money and get you more clients?
If the UM4.6K gives you a good ROI then there is no point in changing.
"A cameraman with out a camera is just a man"
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Mar 13, 2020 11:44 pm

I love my UMP G2! It was a great upgrade from the Original URSA Mini 4.6K. Part of the reason I’ve held on to the original URSA Mini is because the image is super close to matching the G2. It’s mainly a color science that’s different and the RAW codec.

I’d say the Pocket 6K is a good B-Cam or C-Cam, but not a substitute for a camera like the URSA Mini. There’s a lot of people getting work with only a Pocket, and that’s fine. I’d mainly get a Pocket 6K as an additional camera for my UMPG2 since it does BRAW.

At this time I’m waiting on money for video work I’ve done that will get rid of the credit card debt for my new tripod and the car maintenance I just did. The debate is whether to buy lights or a 6K. I’m leaning towards the lights first since those are more pivotal.

But the 6K is still always a good option. I’d say it’s a very good investment for the price.


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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSat Mar 14, 2020 1:43 am

timbutt2 wrote: The debate is whether to buy lights or a 6K. I’m leaning towards the lights first since those are more pivotal.


For lights, you might want to consider the CRLS or Dedo Lightstream option: one light and a bunch of reflectors. I recently bought a Dedolight Lightstream system and am really looking forward to using it. Only one light is needed, with a parallel beam attachment; you bounce it around using their reflectors (which have a range of reflectance angles) to create keylight, fill, and rim light. Plus the reflectors are useful outdoors for reflecting sunlight. Apart from the C-stands and articulating arms I can fit my entire lighting kit into a Pelikan 1510.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSat Mar 14, 2020 1:56 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:
timbutt2 wrote: The debate is whether to buy lights or a 6K. I’m leaning towards the lights first since those are more pivotal.


For lights, you might want to consider the CRLS or Dedo Lightstream option: one light and a bunch of reflectors. I recently bought a Dedolight Lightstream system and am really looking forward to using it. Only one light is needed, with a parallel beam attachment; you bounce it around using their reflectors (which have a range of reflectance angles) to create keylight, fill, and rim light. Plus the reflectors are useful outdoors for reflecting sunlight. Apart from the C-stands and articulating arms I can fit my entire lighting kit into a Pelikan 1510.

Actually, I've already decided on what lights I'd be getting. Gonna get some Aputure 120D Mark II lights and then will get some 300D Mark II. Eventually when the 600D comes out I'll also get that.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSat Mar 14, 2020 10:38 pm

I haven’t wanted to part with the URSA Mini 4.6K as it has its place due to the improved dynamic range and very good image quality. For quick and simpler tasks the BMPCC4K and BMPCC6K also has its advantages especially the dual ISO ranges and lightness. I like being able to shoot on the new SSD drives too. And the Q5 codec can be lighter on the raw resource demands. Tough call and recommend both, but you will decide of course.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostSat Mar 21, 2020 12:56 pm

Blackmagic: We don't have the spare time to bring BRAW to the original URSA Mini

Coronavirus: Hold my beer.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostThu Mar 26, 2020 11:39 pm

Greetings, didn't want to create a new thread as my question is somewhat related.

So, I have the Pocket 4k, and I'm really struggling on deciding whether or not to upgrade to the Ursa mini 4.6k (non pro), and was wondering what some here thought.

Obviously the biggest determining factor is what kind of shooting I do. Well, primary it's narrative and interviews. In all these situations there is usually plenty of light, as I control it.

The biggest benefit for having the Pocket 4k over the Ursa is its low light capability and its ability to run and gun, but since I don't do any of that type of shooting I wondering if it would be worth the upgrade.

The Ursa doesn't have BRAW, but that doesn't really bother me.

So, Although I don't need the Pocket 4k for my style of shooting, it seems that the upgrade may be marginal. Image quality wise, I've heard the Ursa has a 2 stop advantage, but I also heard it only has a one stop advantage --

TLDR: if you were a narrative shooter, would you upgrade from the Pocket to the 4.6k ursa, is the image quality alone worth the upgrade in cost?
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Mar 27, 2020 3:19 am

If you can, you shoot with both, and that sounds desirable for exactly what you do.

If you are a sole owner operator, and most importantly you supply the lights, the 4.6K sensor with CinemaDNG is good. From what you said though I’m not sure how valuable the extra stop or two if dynamic range will be. It’s better in a lot of situations.

Now considering the BMPCC4K (and BMPCC6K), the camera is easy to love to work with it. Just watch out for thin highlights if you get too close to clipping. There are many tools to ensure you get a good exposure. A lighter camera and use of a lighter codec like BRAW Q5 make a big difference on documentary work. I still shoot mostly Q0.

Consider adding the BMVA12G7 which will make focus and framing easier (although most times you’re fine using the camera monitors). If you’re going outdoors, this monitor will make your day. And you get an insurance backup ProRes recording in the event some mishap occurs with your camera’s recording.
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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Mar 27, 2020 12:29 pm

rick.lang wrote:If you can, you shoot with both, and that sounds desirable for exactly what you do.

If you are a sole owner operator, and most importantly you supply the lights, the 4.6K sensor with CinemaDNG is good. From what you said though I’m not sure how valuable the extra stop or two if dynamic range will be. It’s better in a lot of situations.

Now considering the BMPCC4K (and BMPCC6K), the camera is easy to love to work with it. Just watch out for thin highlights if you get too close to clipping. There are many tools to ensure you get a good exposure. A lighter camera and use of a lighter codec like BRAW Q5 make a big difference on documentary work. I still shoot mostly Q0.

Consider adding the BMVA12G7 which will make focus and framing easier (although most times you’re fine using the camera monitors). If you’re going outdoors, this monitor will make your day. And you get an insurance backup ProRes recording in the event some mishap occurs with your camera’s recording.



Thank you, I was hoping you'd respond as you are one of the few who has both.

Another question if you don't mind -- having both, do you think there's a certain, hard to put your figure on quality that Ursa has that the Pocket lacks? I want to say that quality is "detail" but that's not the right word, more like a depth and or a cinematic quality the 4.6k has that I don't often see in the pocket. Have you noticed any of that? I supposed it could be attributed to the extra stops of dynamic range but it seems like more than that.

Thanks.
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic RAW on the Ursa Mini 4.6k?

PostFri Mar 27, 2020 2:42 pm

The URSA Mini 4.6K sensor of course is a different sensor that may behave slightly differently. When you’re processing that raw footage you have the choice in post to use Colour Science 3 or the same Colour Science 4 that the BMPCC4K BRAW uses. So they can be made to match closely.

Tint will be different as can be expected. I don’t rely on a perfect white balance but that helps of course giving you a roughly common starting place but I use a combination of scopes and my eye to judge what I want.

Both will give you good results. It was the same as I understand it when the BMCC and original BMPCC footage was used together. both of these situations are easier to blend together than the BMPC4K which seems more a unique look that’s good on its own, although we’ve had folks here that have mixed it with footage from other sensors successfully.

I think the best practice (if you do have a project that requires footage from two different sensors) is following the same exposure practice on both cameras. Shoot the respective native ISO of each camera and keep the False Colour away from Blue and Yellow as best you can where it matters. This can be tricky when shooting both in the same scene if for example you have a blown window from the BMPCC4K and the URSA Mini 4.6K shows good detail. I’d keep the angles sufficiently different so the viewer isn’t confronted by those kind of differences.

But I know you’re concerned about Colour overall and matching that’s achievable but can be challenging with two sensors doing the same scene shot and similar angles. Test test test so see how they behave.

I’m always impressed by the work I see in a distributed film, but occasionally I notice Colour errors there too! So don’t be too concerned, just satisfy the demands of the producer.
Rick Lang
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