BMPCC6K: NVMe SSD to USB 3.1 for recording

Hello,

I have seen on Tilta website, that there is a mode for flip screen and NVMe SSDs available. Has anybody of you experience with this NVMe to USB adapter or alternative adapters? Can't find this storage type on official side or here.

Greetings
Max

Remember behind the change of external connection, in the inner camera there is a usb 3.1 gen 1 controller, that mean you ever bottleneck of 625/650 mbits limits of bandwitch. The good of Nvme is about better performance of cells that not change so much like common ssd with the filling of space, and often less battery drain that help a lot the battery duration.

and better reading speed in post production. For 4k it doesn't matter much. For 4+k it may matter.

There are USB 3.1 to PCI-e enclosures available. However on testing I have not been able to use one to communicate with the P4k or P6k using the USB port similar to the T5 SSD. The connection reports "No card" from the camera.

Connected to a computer USB port using the enclosure, the NVMe drive is recognized and useable. It is possible the camera circuit does not provide sufficient DC current to activate the circuitry.

Connected to a computer USB supplying it with power, the NVMe drive runs very hot to the touch within the enclosure (this is NORMAL), whereas connected to the camera it remains cool/room temperature. If Tilta has designed a circuit to overcome the power issue, you have to use their setup.

Do the NVMe drives run hot connected to the rear of the camera in their setup?

If I recall right there was talk about on these forums that at least jmicron usb 10g to m.2 nvme (PCIe 3.0) works with PCC4K, also the jmicron usb to sata, with few firmwares ago. There cant be that many nvme to usb controller chipsets out there in those different enclosures to test them all if in need for smaller size etc, then again nvme drives run hot so active cooling or good sized heatsink is recommended. Theres what 4? usb to sata 10Gbit chip manufacturers. JMicron, ASMedia, Via and ...

And for maximum speed only the cfast 2.0 is actually a nice sata 6Gbit vs 5Gbit and the only port to get 4K DCI CDNG RAW 10bit 60fps out of the pocket cinema camera 4K. Havent heard of cfast 2.O to nvme enclosures.... external power would mostlikely be required 3.2V vs 3.3V, if something like that ever comes to the market.

And to get any benefit from the nvme drive you need larger size nvme drive/2+ sata SSD raid 0 on your computer where you keep all the data until encoding.

And I have my doupts of any USB enclosure that is supporting 5Gbit to achieve above 450MBytes/s, 950MBytes/s or so seems to be the limit on USB 10Gbits SATA enclosures (not tested NVMe enclosures). Its the controller chipsets on motherboards and on the enclosures bogging down the theoretical usb speeds.

A better performance for post will be a big argument and i know which quality storage is used.

@allebaug: Can't imagine that tilta develop there own NVMe to USB 3.1 converter/IC. Homepage shows standard samsung EVO 970 m2 storage. And this part will be relevant for power dissipation.

I'm wondering why BM will not update there recommended storage types. It should my no big deal to test it.

****
Problem Solved!!

The fast Anker cable (below) connected to the T5 (on a P6k) from the USB port, also reports that the working T5 as "No card".

I substituted a generic USB-c cable, plus the enclosure with 970EVO below and received a "Format" status. I formatted the 970 in-camera as exFat. It works, the camera reports correct capacity, including the signature NVMe M.2 warming of the drive and enclosure.

I connected the formatted drive/enclosure to a P4k and it was fully recognized.

When I initially tested this the cameras were under v6.6 firmware, now upgraded to v6.8.

The enclosure/drive is still mountable by the computer using a generic or the Anker USB-c cable.
****

I have recently been using the parts listed below to test out the connection and operation >>

The USB-C interconnect cable is an Anker - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076D ... UTF8&psc=1

The SS drive is a Samsung 500G 970EVO NVMe M.2

And the enclosure - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07K6 ... UTF8&psc=1

The PCIe bridge chip, shown on the circuit board below, is a JMS583 - https://www.jmicron.com/news/detail/21.

Good for you and thanks for the detailed reporting.

Sounds good that your storage is working right now. Do you have used stock cable from your enclosure? I ve checked a view enclosures on amazon. JMS583 is used in most adapter. Even in low budget versions. Could you perform Blackmagic speed check and post result here ?

Sounds good that your storage is working right now. Do you have used stock cable from your enclosure? I ve checked a view enclosures on amazon. JMS583 is used in most adapter. Even in low budget versions. Could you perform Blackmagic speed check and post result here ?

I don't know if it is the stock cable, but it is possible with a length of 12". The Anker cable is length 18".

I tested both the NMVe drive and the T5 normally mounted on the P6k, using first the shorter "generic" cable, then again with the Anker cable. The test was done with a Win10 laptop using two different USB-c ports, side and rear, the rear known to be speed-enhanced. The SW version is 2.0 of Roadkil's Disk Speed.

The top row in the attached screenshot is the generic cable using the side UBS-c port, NVMe left, T5 right.
The bottom row is the Anker cable. The left-most test is the NVMe, side USB-c port.
The middle test is the NVMe, rear USB-c port.
The right-most test is the T5, rear USB-c port.

Joe, how much heat are you getting?

Joe, how much heat are you getting?

Mild currently, since it has only been used for a quick test, then off. When attached to the computer, it is reported by Samsung utility, Magician, to be in the range of 32C to 37C depending on its current task access load (the latest Magician SW upgrade does not list a version).

Even at rest, it stays warm to the touch, and the enclosure I bought is perforated along sides (a CYA perhaps?). I have two NVMe drives installed inside the laptop for Boot and Data (.5T and 1T), plus a 1T SATA HD, and 32G of RAM, and the fans power up periodically during the day's work depending on tasks.

Joe, how much heat are you getting?

Mild currently, since it has only been used for a quick test, then off. When attached to the computer, it is reported by Samsung utility, Magician, to be in the range of 32C to 37C depending on its current task access load (the latest Magician SW upgrade does not list a version).

Even at rest, it stays warm to the touch, and the enclosure I bought is perforated along sides (a CYA perhaps?). I have two NVMe drives installed inside the laptop for Boot and Data (.5T and 1T), plus a 1T SATA HD, and 32G of RAM, and the fans power up periodically during the day's work depending on tasks.

Thanks. I have a Samsung 1TB 970 EVO in a Thunderbolt 3 aluminum external enclosure. The EVO generates a lot of heat when connected to my computer. If it can be made to work with a Pocket 4K, the question is whether it generates too much heat to be practical. There’s also the question of what’s to be gained from doing this.

Joe, how much heat are you getting?

Thanks. I have a Samsung 1TB 970 EVO in a Thunderbolt 3 external enclosure. It generates a lot of heat when connected to my computer. If it can be made to work with a Pocket 4K, the question is whether it generates too much heat to be practical. There’s also the question of what’s to be gained from doing this.

Certainly, internal as the laptop, there is ~an order of magnitude throughput difference to a HD. The shocking thing is the heat. Comparing a thing the size of a stick of gum to the T5 size, which, the T5, does get warm under load, should quiet the shock, since this is a commercial product with a lengthy warranty.

Like the Tilta-mounted external implementation, they have factored in the heat as well (but I'd personally like that heat away from the camera case!).

Given the performance, T5s are good enough. I was curious to know, having an extra stick, if it would work. And it does.

One more thought, RE the NVMe M.2 drives versus the current choice of the T5, both Samsung products.

The NVMe drives were designed to run on a PCI bus, hence the need for the PCI to USB-c bridge chip in each external enclosure.

The T5 lives on the USB-c bus.

I have a 970EVO within the computer which did the speed tests as well as a 970EVO drive external.

The 970 internal drive, on a computer PCI bus, logs an average ~3200 MB/s Read and ~2550 MB/s Write.
The same 970 on USB-c computer buses speed tests an average ~600-770 MB/s Read, Write speed not given.
The T5 on same USB-c buses speed tests an average ~460 MB/s Read.

Added following setup to camera:
*ICY Box (IB-1817M-C31) includes JMS583
* Samsung 970 EVO 1 TB

Status: plugged SSD to camera ( FW 6.9.1) and storage will be detect. Start recording with 6K and 50 FPS BRAW Q0. After a view minutes ( it depends ), recording stops, maybe because of loosing frames and and storage will be disconnect from camera. That means indicator LED from ICY Box switched off. Reconnect and switch on/off does not solve the problem. However, connecting to the PC works without any issue. To detect storage correct again, formating on PC is required. If I use lower data rate like Q0 or 5:1, everything works well. It seems that after reaching any specific high data rate, external storage will be disconnected.
Speed check shows that normally data rate should not be the bottle neck .

Could anybody reproduce the same issue? Maybe I will try T5 1TB again. Hopefully it works with Q5 too.

Max

Added following setup to camera:
*Could anybody reproduce the same issue? Maybe I will try T5 1TB again. Hopefully it works with Q5 too.

Max

I'll test this tomorrow AM if no one else before then.

I have the same problem with this Evo 970 plus 1tb
my enclosure is a Inateck fe2025 ( 10 gb/s usb-c )
using a cable usb-c 100w 20gb/s ( i tried different ones also 10 gb/s )

I do believe, (probably someone of you with experience in with electric devices can investigate it better)
that the problem is due by an electric "peak" that goes higher that the maximum the camera can handle.

I read somewhere on this forum that the internal usb-c of pocket 6k handles up to 4.5w and some hard drives have peaks up to 6w.
this causes the the hard drive disconnection. ( the only way to reconnect it is to turn off the camera )

now, it could also be the enclosure itself handling the voltage. not sure.... ( I tried with another one, same problem, tomorrow I'll receive a different one from Sabrent, let's see)


previously Tho, I had a different M2 drive that worked pretty well without this disconnection problems.( I had a problem with this drive, being defective and I returned) the model was:
Crucial P5 1tb ( CT1000P5SSD8)
if someone wants to try this out.

Ok got an update. This happens with this version of 970 plus I have
( is the old one with the phoenix chipset)

old version part number MZVLB1T0HBLR. ( I got that one, to avoid!)
newer version part number MZVL21T0HBLU

So I got today a evo 980 pro and works Perfectly!!!! I’ve been testing it all day long, flawless!
Guys go direct buy that one and you can shoot any resolution and any compression with no frame drops on the 6k pro.

A little late to the party but hopefully with some interesting findings.

I tried several enclosures for NVMe SSDs and came to the same conclusion some of you have already reached that, in most cases, the power provided through the onboard USB-C port is not enough to power the external NVMe stick appropriately.

The enclosures I had success with are:

• ICY BOX IB-1916M-C32 (ASM2364 chipset) mounting a Crucial 2TB M.2 NVMe CT2000P2SSD8;
• Yottamaster Y-Sober SO4-RC3, mounting two Samsung 1TB M.2 SATA 860 EVO MZ-N6E1T0 (in RAID0) (This is not really a true NVMe solution, since this enclouse only accepts SATA M.2 sticks. Nevertheless, the RAID0 configuration allowed me to get around 980 MB/s when connecting it to my workstation, which was the main goal of this test)

With both enclosures, I was able to record at 6kQ0 until the drive was completely full (a little more than 2 hours of recording), with the BMPCC set to stop the recording at the first dropped frame.

The best solution was the ICY BOX IB-1916M-C32 for the following reasons:

• 20 Gbps transfer rate (the BMPCC USB-C port is just 5Gbps but it is great to have a faster drive when you transfer the footage to your workstation if that has a USB card with an Asmedia chipset);
• single NVMe stick;
• no external power required;
• very good passive thermal design.

Nevertheless, the Yottamaster can also be a good solution if you:

• have some spare NGIFF SSD M.2 SATA sitting around (the RAID configuration is very easy, with a DIP switch inside the enclosure);
• don't want to risk that a peak in the power consumption of the drive caps the BMPCC USB-C port max power output and stops the recording (the Yottamaster can mount two sticks so it comes with an additional 5V power input
• don't need a 20 Gbps

For the second point, I am still testing a solution with the ICY BOX connected through a USB-C hub featuring PD input that could lift the heavy weight of powering the drive from the BMPCC USB-C shoulders, guaranteeing a more stable power to the drive. I will update you if you are interested in knowing the results of my test.

I hope this is helpful.