PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

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sallykeller

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PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostSat Jul 06, 2013 3:20 am

BLACKMAGIC

I'm not needy like all the other feature greedy filmmakers out there. If you can include some higher frame rates in full HD I will immediately purchase 3 for my wedding & advertising business. I use slowmo a fair bit and cant do without it.

Please consider it in your next update, many like me aren't sure how long we can wait and are considering other small footprint options.

:cry:

:o
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Jules Bushell

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Re: PLEASE

PostSat Jul 06, 2013 4:02 am

In producing all that gorgeous imagery, if the BMCC went any faster it will probably burst into flames!

It's not going to happen on current hardware, I think. Probably 2015, components will be that much faster that higher frame rates effectively comes without any effort to implement in a new generation of cameras from them. Assuming SSDs can record that fast by then or the greater processing power can compress it fast enough.

There's probably more appropriate cameras out there for you for weddings and business ads then the Blackmagic Cinema Camera if higher frame rates are what you need.

Jules
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adamroberts

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Re: PLEASE

PostSat Jul 06, 2013 6:37 am

There are not many cameras with high quality images that will shoot high frame rates at low cost. There is a reason for that. It's complicated and requires more expensive components.

Look at other Full HD cameras in the price range:
Canon C100 - max 30fps
Sony NEX-FS100 - max 60fps
Canon 5D - max 30fps
Canon 7D - max 30fps
Panasonic AF101 - max 60fps

All can only shoot in 8bit compressed codecs. (5D does RAW with a hack)

Double the cost and we have:
Canon C300 - max 30fps
NEX-FS700 - max 240fps

Again all are shooting 8bit compressed codecs.

8bit of data is much easier to process than 12bit and so can be done with cheaper components.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: PLEASE

PostSat Jul 06, 2013 6:55 am

adamroberts wrote:
NEX-FS700 - max 240fps

Again all are shooting 8bit compressed codecs.

8bit of data is much easier to process than 12bit and so can be done with cheaper components.


You can get 14-bit raw in 4K at 24fps (maybe up to 60?) or 2K up to 240 fps... but it costs an additional $4.5K because you have to add an external recorder, and the least expensive option is the Odyssey 7Q + an FS700 codec license.

With current technology, BMD had to make some tradeoffs. They could have given us higher frame rates and hit the same price point by compromising image quality (less dynamic range? 8-bit rather than 10-bit to reduce the bandwidth required? Etc), or not made those compromises and instead raised the price to account for the cost of the proprietary high end tech they'd have had to use.

BMD made the choice to stick with their price target and not compromise on image quality.

It's a fair trade. If you need slowmo and don't want to compromise in image quality, get a Phantom or an FS700 + a $4,000 recorder.
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adamroberts

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Re: PLEASE

PostSat Jul 06, 2013 7:56 am

And that was exactly my point.

People keep coming on here asking for a firmware update to do high frame rates. The BMCC is $2995 and the BMPC4K is $3995. For that money you get incredible images. Which as BMs aim. If the hardware was able to do high frame rates at that quality the BM would have shipped the camera with high frame rates. But to achieve those price point compromises had to be made.

If you want slowmo on a budget, get an FS700 (that was Sony's aim). If you want slowmo with higher image quality than 8bit AVCHD prepare to pay for it.
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Jonas Bengtson

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Re: PLEASE

PostSat Jul 06, 2013 12:25 pm

PLEASE use better posts titles.
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GeraldBaria

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Re: PLEASE

PostSat Jul 06, 2013 11:22 pm

According to Apple's Prores specifications, Prores HQ at 1080p 60p is only 440mbps (exactly double the 220mbps 30p). Now the BM4K does 4K Prores at 880mbps. So Prores wise, DATA RATES ARE NOT A PROBLEM with the BM4K. 1080p 60p can be handled, theoretically. And against popular belief, encoding to H264 requires MORE processing power than RAW / High bit rate compressed since you have to process its frame more. So with that info, I think the bottleneck for the BM4K is just the internal processor.

Now, the FS700 can be sent in for a hardware upgrade for 4K and Slog 2...most likely a processor upgrade. Besides the new capabilitirs to do RAW, 4K and Log profiles...the base ISO is also increased from 640 to 2000! Those are huge improvements.

So given the previous BM pattern, maybe with enough pressure they can release a congruent model with the BM4K with higher framerates for those who NEED it, myself included, because as much as everyone says otherwise, wedding cinematography have gone a long way the past 5 years to the point that same day edits are better than 5month indie short film productions. We'd love to have BM's image quality for our wedding productions.
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Re: PLEASE

PostSat Jul 06, 2013 11:23 pm

Jonas Bengtson wrote:PLEASE use better posts titles.


+1 seriously........
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Lucas Pfaff

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Re: PLEASE

PostSun Jul 07, 2013 12:21 am

quobetah wrote:According to Apple's Prores specifications, Prores HQ at 1080p 60p is only 440mbps (exactly double the 220mbps 30p). Now the BM4K does 4K Prores at 880mbps. So Prores wise, DATA RATES ARE NOT A PROBLEM with the BM4K.

Well 440Mbit is something the normal BMCC could also handle with ease... :)
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John Brawley

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Re: PLEASE

PostSun Jul 07, 2013 2:36 am

There is so much more to this and it has been discussed gazillion times.

There are many bottlenecks to overcome. Overheating, data rates, the hardware being able to actually push and process that much data.

The camera has to be designed with higher frame rates in mind. This camera hasn't been.

jb
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: PLEASE

PostSun Jul 07, 2013 2:43 am

John Brawley wrote:There is so much more to this and it has been discussed gazillion times.

There are many bottlenecks to overcome. Overheating, data rates, the hardware being able to actually push and process that much data.

The camera has to be designed with higher frame rates in mind. This camera hasn't been.

jb


It's amazing that there are so many people out there who can't wrap their brains around the simple concept of tradeoffs. It reminds me of the Dilbert strip where the pointy-haired imbecile invented a timeline based on his "understanding" of engineering... which is to say, he assumed that if he didn't understand it, it must be easy.
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: PLEASE

PostSun Jul 07, 2013 11:18 am

quobetah wrote:the BM4K does 4K Prores at 880mbps. So Prores wise, DATA RATES ARE NOT A PROBLEM with the BM4K. 1080p 60p can be handled, theoretically.

Still you FIRST need to transfer twice as much data from sensor to memory, and need twice as much cpu cycles to debayer and downscale the images BEFORE you have this handy 1080@60 datastream.

As you said: "prores wise" it could work, "theoretically" - but "whole camera wise" nobody knows if it can work "practically", so the whole discussion is rather mood.
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Loch Phillipps

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Re: PLEASE

PostSun Jul 07, 2013 8:22 pm

There are a couple of things I don't understand about slow motion on the BMCC. First, if it can shoot 2.5k RAW at 24fps, why can't it do 48fps or even 60fps in HD (ProRes or DNxHD)? Aren't the data rates vastly different for RAW and HD?

The way the 5D MIII does 60fps is at 720P, a smaller frame size. A lot of the people who desire slow motion will settle for this sort of compromise, which probably could be done via firmware update. The slow motion from the 5D looks great. I'd certainly settle for that and think it'd be a great addition to the BMCC.
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adamroberts

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Re: PLEASE

PostSun Jul 07, 2013 8:59 pm

loch@offrampfilms.com wrote:There are a couple of things I don't understand about slow motion on the BMCC. First, if it can shoot 2.5k RAW at 24fps, why can't it do 48fps or even 60fps in HD (ProRes or DNxHD)? Aren't the data rates vastly different for RAW and HD?

The way the 5D MIII does 60fps is at 720P, a smaller frame size. A lot of the people who desire slow motion will settle for this sort of compromise, which probably could be done via firmware update. The slow motion from the 5D looks great. I'd certainly settle for that and think it'd be a great addition to the BMCC.


As John Brawley explained above its not just the data rate that needs to be considered.

First the sensor needs to be read twice as fast. This requires more power and produced more heat.

Next that data needs to be de-bayered. Again double the data it normally de-bayers when shooting HD. So more heat and more processing power required.

Then it needs to encode the data to ProRes. While ProRes is an easy codec to process it still requires double the bandwidth if you double the FPS.

So what's so hard to understand?

The cameras are $3k and $4k. To get them in at that price BM have had to make compromises. The processor they selected, the internal memory buffers, the chips, etc all impact how much data that can process and how much heat is generated.

As an example. An Intel Core i7 3770k is twice the price of an Intel Core i5 3330. That is a huge price jump for a little more power.

The same applies to the components inside the camera. To have a little more processing power the price of the camera would jump up considerably.
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Re: PLEASE

PostMon Jul 08, 2013 12:03 am

Sorry, I guess I missed the Brawley explanation. This is good and now, at long last, I understand...maybe.
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Cameron Mckinlay

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Re: PLEASE

PostMon Jul 08, 2013 12:20 am

Tamerlin wrote:
John Brawley wrote:There is so much more to this and it has been discussed gazillion times.

There are many bottlenecks to overcome. Overheating, data rates, the hardware being able to actually push and process that much data.

The camera has to be designed with higher frame rates in mind. This camera hasn't been.

jb


It's amazing that there are so many people out there who can't wrap their brains around the simple concept of tradeoffs. It reminds me of the Dilbert strip where the pointy-haired imbecile invented a timeline based on his "understanding" of engineering... which is to say, he assumed that if he didn't understand it, it must be easy.


Same can be said for people who said DSLR's would never be used on major motion pictures. Or even more DSLR's shooting RAW. Everyone on all the blogs and forums for years said it was "impossible" and "the hardware can't handle the huge amount of data" blah blah blah. Many things are possible but I don't imagine BMD to release that sort of function in a firmware update. That sort of thing would be a hack. If BMD says the hardware can't do it then they won't even look into implementing it. Hackers on the other hand, love a good challenge.
I am hoping a camera hack will enable HFR on this but I am not expecting it.
I would definitely be curious to see what a skilled hacker like Trammel Hudson could do with a camera like this. Maybe even the mythical audio meters! Wow!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
Cameron Mckinlay

Csaba Nagy

Re: PLEASE

PostMon Jul 08, 2013 6:48 am

All of these that are said are valid points to why High Frame rates are hard to achieve.

I was wondering though....Lets say that data bandwidth wouldn't be an issue, but heat as the main factor...

I see that the Bottom of the BMCC has a removable style Fan... I think BMD Could try to engineer or create some crazy Super High RPM fan to deal with Heat? And sell it as a Add-on with future firmware?

Yes, power would be and added cost...but would be a trade-off needed to make this work. ( if it could. )

Noise would also be a factor...But this will be another trade-off necessary to make it work. ( if it could. )

The Fan could also be a variable RPM fan that only speeds up when doing high frame rates.

I don't see why this cant be a viable option. If heat is the real kicker, then find a way to make it less...

I really don't believe that BMD put the best fan they could into the BMCC, They can surely put a faster and far better fan into there. Just as you can go out an buy some high end Noctua fans for your CPU heat sink, you should be able to buy a better fan for your camera.

I don't think the concept is far off nor any different than overclocking your CPU. ( uses more voltage, produces more heat. So you do your best to dissipate the heat. get better fans.)

Then again, I don't know how the BMCC internals are laid-out so I'm not sure adding a fan would really solve the problem ( maybe at least not directly).

Just a thought...

( Maybe BMD could design a water cooling unit under the camera, just as a battery grip fits into a DSLR. The radiator at the bottom, and the waterblock sticking up and into the camera pressed against the inside.... Again me dreaming up some strange ideas. Probably wouldn't do anything as there is no direct contact with any of the processing units.)

Schoolpost,
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Re: PLEASE

PostMon Jul 08, 2013 12:50 pm

I can't imagine Blackmagic would go through all this for no profit but a potential loss due to all the trouble to do it. They can't keep up with current demand now.

It makes much better sense to release a new range of cameras in a couple of years that do higher fps at the same price point and the advance in technology would give the headroom for the faster processing for higher fps for free. And that be another reason to get a new camera from them.

For myself, I ensure that things like follow focus, evf, lenses, external battery etc. are bought for longer term and when Blackmagic does release their 15 stops dynamic range, 8K, global shutter, 60fps camera in the future, their prices are so good that I wouldn't hesitate to just get another camera from them and drop it into my current set up.

I say just thank the stars that you;ve got a ground breaking camera at the current price and purchase the camera only for what it can do now if it fits your requirements.

Jules
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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostMon Jul 08, 2013 5:16 pm

I would love too having higher frame rates. IMHO it's the only feature missing, and 48fps would be enough for me. I really hope that for the next camera :)
URSA4K v2 EF - BMPCC 4K - BMCC EF - BMPCC - RED DRAGON

Csaba Nagy

Re: PLEASE

PostMon Jul 08, 2013 11:35 pm

Jules Bushell wrote:I can't imagine Blackmagic would go through all this for no profit but a potential loss due to all the trouble to do it. They can't keep up with current demand now.


If Blackmagic could simply flip a switch on their firmware to enable FPS of your choice, that's all I ask for.

Let me do the the rest. Let me figure out how I or if I even want to use it. Let me solve/create my own cooling method if that's an issue. etc..

You see I'm no professional. There are 2 target groups that I see with the BMCC:

1. The Professionals who can buy up and have the greater resources to do their work. They can afford the new line of camera's each an any year they want.

2. Then there is the low end of the spectrum, the guys who came up from shooting with the likes of the 7D, 5D MKII, etc.. ( they were low cost camera's for what they could do. )

I'm part of that low end, I don't do large work. I'm more of a "Hobbyist" if you will. I like to shoot my own personal stuff for fun and for educational gain.

I would prefer to be given the freedom to push my gear to its max potential. I'm also a "tinkerer, I like to customize, change, modify my gear to fit my needs.

If the BMD doesn't want to do the work, let someone else do it. ( Hackers like the people who work on Magic Lantern. ) Bring some open-source firmware of some kind, to let us do what we will.

I really don't see the loss in Open-source firmware. The only reason I could see BMD hold back on the idea, is simply the fact that they realize their current camera's can do more. Which would be totally contradicting what everyone on this forum says about the BMCC, and how its already being pushed to its limit.

The way I see it, If the camera is doing all it can. What the loss that could occur in Open-source firmware. We would all just realize, " Hey, never-mind,..that's all I can do with this camera." ( which is not to say that I am more than overwhelmed in the images/capabilities it can do already. )

We'll stop bugging BMD. End of story.

We all buy gear and accept what it can do. Whats wrong with curiosity of going beyond?

Csaba,
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: PLEASE

PostTue Jul 09, 2013 5:58 am

Csaba Nagy wrote:If Blackmagic could simply flip a switch on their firmware to enable FPS of your choice, that's all I ask for.


You think that this will somehow get around the technical limitations of the hardware that several people have pointed out?

Let me do the the rest. Let me figure out how I or if I even want to use it. Let me solve/create my own cooling method if that's an issue. etc..


So now all you have to do is upgrade the cooling and <poof> the bandwidth doubles? Fat chance.

You see I'm no professional. There are 2 target groups that I see with the BMCC:


Obviously.

1. The Professionals who can buy up and have the greater resources to do their work. They can afford the new line of camera's each an any year they want.


The professionals hopefully also know what apostrophes are for.

I'm part of that low end, I don't do large work. I'm more of a "Hobbyist" if you will. I like to shoot my own personal stuff for fun and for educational gain.


I suppose that explains the armchair architect syndrome.

I would prefer to be given the freedom to push my gear to its max potential. I'm also a "tinkerer, I like to customize, change, modify my gear to fit my needs.

If the BMD doesn't want to do the work, let someone else do it. ( Hackers like the people who work on Magic Lantern. ) Bring some open-source firmware of some kind, to let us do what we will.


Open source isn't a fix-everything sort of solution. Do yo somehow think that someone could with a simple firmware tweak upgrade the camera's buses, buffers, and processors?

I really don't see the loss in Open-source firmware. The only reason I could see BMD hold back on the idea, is simply the fact that they realize their current camera's can do more. Which would be totally contradicting what everyone on this forum says about the BMCC, and how its already being pushed to its limit.


You can't even figure out what an apostrophe is for, yet you think you know more about what the camera can do than the people who designed it?

The way I see it, If the camera is doing all it can. What the loss that could occur in Open-source firmware. We would all just realize, " Hey, never-mind,..that's all I can do with this camera." ( which is not to say that I am more than overwhelmed in the images/capabilities it can do already. )


The loss is in support. It wouldn't be in any way feasible for BMD to stand behind their cameras if they officially supported open source firmware. If someone hacks it, they lose their warranty coverage, so BMD would not have any obligation to support the inevitable legion of bugs that the hackers would introduce into the camera, which is entirely appropriate.

We'll stop bugging BMD. End of story.


No, you won't. You'd just complain to BMD about the legion of bugs the hackers introduce into the camera, as if it's somehow their fault that the hackers are clods, which most of them are. Take a look at http://thedailywtf.com/ if you want to get a sense for what BMD would be setting itself up for.
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Re: PLEASE

PostTue Jul 09, 2013 12:57 pm

Tamerlin wrote:The professionals hopefully also know what apostrophes are for.
...
You can't even figure out what an apostrophe is for, ...

Wow. I'd sign most of what you've just said - yet your comments about apostrophes are way out of line. Who are you to judge a fellow forum user by his/her spelling capabilities?

Csaba Nagy

Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostTue Jul 09, 2013 5:56 pm

Tamerlin,

Its seems you have taken a very critical response to my comment. You right fully should as you are open to your own opinion.

But here is the thing, what you have said clearly does not differ with anything else anybody here has spoken about in regards to this topic.

I have seen my fair share of people ask for this feature ever since to beginning. The way I see it for everyone one person that requests this, there are 10x more people who will talk down the idea.

In what authority? You clearly told me that I don't know anything about the hardware or the way the camera works.( which is true, but beyond the point. )

Unless you are a BMD engineer who knows the mechanics of this camera inside out. You are just as clueless as I am. ( you are just better at making it sound more professional. )

No where in my statement did I ever say that I knew more about the camera and the way it works, than even a BMD engineer. This was that cause of your interpretation of what I said.

I was hoping my comment would come off as a hypothetical statement. ( What if? if you want to? you could? someone was able? ) I'm not speaking these on behalf of myself.

Since you very clearly understood my statement, I'm not sure why it was so crucial to point out such simple grammatical error. ( thank you anyway for letting me know. ) I have seen much worse on this forum.

I don't want to start anything aggressive here. ( but your response clearly seems to say otherwise. )

I find a lot of people here seem to "attack" users as if though they owe it to BMD to "Defend" them.

Until I have seen/heard it from anyone here at BMD; whether written or in an interview stating the limiting factors of HFR and how it wont happen. I we will be here supporting it.
( Please link an official statement if you have heard/seen them say this.)

If anything there is only equal evidence, as HFR was said to be a possible feature as through a firmware upgrade through some interviews in NAB 2012.

I really don't believe a 3000$ camera has such harsh hardware limitations that it cant even handle 60FPS or even 120FPS that a 400$ helmet mount GoPro can do. ( I know about the crazy compression of the GoPro, but you should get the point. ) I could live with those compression issues if it would mean HFR.

Hey we all lived through the compressed footage with the DSLR's. Seem to have done good until now.

I personally could not add to the camera in an open-source stance. ( As I know nothing of how this all works. )

I'm not trying to say Open-source, Cooling, etc.. is the answer to any of this. I'm just throwing thoughts out there and see if its a hit or miss.

Again, I don't want to come off as aggressive. I respect your stance as a professional that I am not.

Regards,

Csaba
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostTue Jul 09, 2013 6:22 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:Tamerlin,

Its seems you have taken a very critical response to my comment. You right fully should as you are open to your own opinion.



Of course I did. Given that others with considerably more involvement in the cameras' design have indicated that it's not feasible with the current hardware should have been enough.

I have seen my fair share of people ask for this feature ever since to beginning. The way I see it for everyone one person that requests this, there are 10x more people who will talk down the idea.


It's not that people are talking down the idea, if you think that's what's happening you should work on your language skills.

In what authority? You clearly told me that I don't know anything about the hardware or the way the camera works.( which is true, but beyond the point. )


Authority? Who said anything about authority? This is just case of gathering what information is available and making a rational conclusion.

Unless you are a BMD engineer who knows the mechanics of this camera inside out. You are just as clueless as I am. ( you are just better at making it sound more professional. )


Actually, that's false. I've just been paying attention to what people who DO have that knowledge have pointed out already.

I really don't believe a 3000$ camera has such harsh hardware limitations that it cant even handle 60FPS or even 120FPS that a 400$ helmet mount GoPro can do. ( I know about the crazy compression of the GoPro, but you should get the point. ) I could live with those compression issues if it would mean HFR.


A few others who you should be paying a lot more attention to have explained why this isn't feasible with the current hardware.
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Csaba Nagy

Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostTue Jul 09, 2013 7:17 pm

Tamerlin wrote:
A few others who you should be paying a lot more attention to have explained why this isn't feasible with the current hardware.


Thanks for the opinion

This is the kind of response I was expecting from my earliest post. Civil and clear.

Fundamentally I Just want to be pointed at some quotes or real peoples words on the topic.

That way I take more than just your word on this topic.

You describing that it has been discussed really doesn't help in making it true.

That's why I had asked if you could show me where you read/seen the statements that prove HFR is not plausible. ( I read this forum and BMCuser so I'm generally informed on all of the treads. I Have yet to see a very detailed and thought through explanation, not to mention from someone who is actually a BMD employee. )

Csaba
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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostTue Jul 09, 2013 7:52 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:
Tamerlin wrote:
A few others who you should be paying a lot more attention to have explained why this isn't feasible with the current hardware.


Thanks for the opinion

This is the kind of response I was expecting from my earliest post. Civil and clear.

Fundamentally I Just want to be pointed at some quotes or real peoples words on the topic.

That way I take more than just your word on this topic.

You describing that it has been discussed really doesn't help in making it true.

That's why I had asked if you could show me where you read/seen the statements that prove HFR is not plausible. ( I read this forum and BMCuser so I'm generally informed on all of the treads. I Have yet to see a very detailed and thought through explanation, not to mention from someone who is actually a BMD employee. )

Csaba



While he isn't a BMD employee, JB is very involved in the development of their cameras. And basically his explanations over many threads this has come up in boils down to: There are many potential bottlenecks in a camera for HFR, so many that a camera really has to be designed with them in mind to be able to produce them, and non of BMD's line up of 3 (4 if you count the EF and MFT as separate cameras) cameras have been.

Csaba Nagy

Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostTue Jul 09, 2013 8:05 pm

JB would definitely be the one to know this for sure.

Well..I guess ill put this to rest no point in re-iterating or arguing something that does not need to be.

All I can do is hope that in the not to distant future when firmware 2.0 comes out, I'll have a nice 60FPS option. ( we can all dream :lol: )
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Jace Ross

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Re: PLEASE

PostTue Jul 09, 2013 11:04 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:All of these that are said are valid points to why High Frame rates are hard to achieve.

I was wondering though....Lets say that data bandwidth wouldn't be an issue, but heat as the main factor...

I see that the Bottom of the BMCC has a removable style Fan... I think BMD Could try to engineer or create some crazy Super High RPM fan to deal with Heat? And sell it as a Add-on with future firmware?

Yes, power would be and added cost...but would be a trade-off needed to make this work. ( if it could. )

Noise would also be a factor...But this will be another trade-off necessary to make it work. ( if it could. )

The Fan could also be a variable RPM fan that only speeds up when doing high frame rates.

I don't see why this cant be a viable option. If heat is the real kicker, then find a way to make it less...

I really don't believe that BMD put the best fan they could into the BMCC, They can surely put a faster and far better fan into there. Just as you can go out an buy some high end Noctua fans for your CPU heat sink, you should be able to buy a better fan for your camera.

I don't think the concept is far off nor any different than overclocking your CPU. ( uses more voltage, produces more heat. So you do your best to dissipate the heat. get better fans.)

Then again, I don't know how the BMCC internals are laid-out so I'm not sure adding a fan would really solve the problem ( maybe at least not directly).

Just a thought...

( Maybe BMD could design a water cooling unit under the camera, just as a battery grip fits into a DSLR. The radiator at the bottom, and the waterblock sticking up and into the camera pressed against the inside.... Again me dreaming up some strange ideas. Probably wouldn't do anything as there is no direct contact with any of the processing units.)

Schoolpost,


A few issues with your theory:
1. Faster fan = more noise (much more if you put in a Delta or similar)
2. Faster fan = more power consumption
3. Making a fan switchable by framerate selection would be difficult.
4. Faster/more fans isn't always an effective solution, upping fan quality on a heatsink will make minimal difference to actual heat dissipation.
5. There's more to overclocking than make it fast and add more fans and I doubt adding higher framerates could be a simple firmware modification for these cameras.
6. Watercooling is bad mojo in a camera, would you want a conductive, moist cooling system in a camera that will be moved around a lot, left in a bag etc? Ever seen a watercooled laptop? It's unlikely you will unless someone manages a self contained unit with non-conductive coolant, solid tubing and well sealed joins. This would be VERY costly.
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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 12:03 am

With the original 2.5K BMCC I can understan the hardware limitation if thesensor itself wasnt capable of higher framerates..but with the BM4K, it is capable of higher framerates up to 120fps even (if it is indeed the CMOSIS sensor). Having downscale to 1080p or being windowed might take off the heat of scan load to an extent and reduce processing cycle requirement which might mitigate heat issues. I mean we really did see some interviews where a BMD rep suggested a "possibility" of higher framerate on future firmware updates. So there is at least a glimmer of hope. I know JB knows a lot about internal knowledge on the BMCC but what do you know maybe even BM wants to surprise him.;)

Anyways, if it indeed needs a body redesign lets just start a new thread of how next years BMCC will look. I love the current "apple inspired" design philisophy an I want it continued. Maybe they can make the BMCC 3.0 look like the new Mac Pro?;D
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Chill out guys...

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 1:03 am

You know, I can't honestly remember where I saw it, but I distinctly remember watching a video interview with a Blackmagic employee where the person being interviewed didn't shut the door on higher frame rates. As I recall, he kept the possibility of it coming in a future firmware update. If I were to read into things, I'd say he might have gone so far as to drop a non-commital hint. (Sorry, but I'm not going to go scour for the video now - feel free to debate the point or correct me if I'm wrong).

I feel like some users on this forum are auto-apologists for Blackmagic. EVERY time someone brings up a feature request or a critique, there's this automatic response from a number of you that goes something like this, "Well what the #%$@ do you expect for a $3k camera?! Dumbass." (I'm paraphrasing).

Can we drop the $3k camera excuse for every misgiving of this camera?

I have one. I love it. Flaws and all. It's awesome. And it's not perfect. But that's ok. No camera is.

The question about adding higher frame rate options is a legitimate one, and no matter how many times it's come up on the boards, can we all collectively have the decency to either a) ignore the question if you feel you'e already contributed enough to answering it in the past or b) if you're going to contribute something, have a modicum of respect for the other users here? I'm looking at you Tamerlin.

The actual fact of the matter is nobody here really knows whether or not it's possible. Only Blackmagic does and they haven't officially responded one way or the other.

In terms of the super duper expensive high technology required to do high frame rates, I have a $400 Hero3 camera that does 120fps in 720p. Yes it's compressed into h.264, but it's recorded onto a micro SD card. I mean come on people. Seriously. At a minimum, it's possible that a firmware update could add more frame rate options to any or all of the BMC cameras. Stop acting like you have some kind of insider knowledge into the camera design, cuz chances seem really good that you don't.
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Re: Chill out guys...

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 1:53 am

djfern wrote:Stop acting like you have some kind of insider knowledge into the camera design, cuz chances seem really good that you don't.

For me it's common sense. If I wanted my own PC computer to run twice as fast, obviously it won't do it, I'd buy a new computer.

Yes I can water cool my PC, squeeze an extra 30% from the CPU but the memory won't be faster or PCI bus or my hard drive etc.

If they do some voodoo blackmagic and can do some compromise, all power to them. But I believe it's not some they'll do in their current cameras.

Jules
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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 4:24 am

I hope Resolve 10's "High quality optical flow image processing" will help create smooth slow motion without the artifacting you see from Twixtor. Hopefully this feature was made specifically to address the Cinema Camera's lack of high frame rates.
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Re: Chill out guys...

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 4:39 am

djfern wrote:You know, I can't honestly remember where I saw it, but I distinctly remember watching a video interview with a Blackmagic employee where the person being interviewed didn't shut the door on higher frame rates. As I recall, he kept the possibility of it coming in a future firmware update. If I were to read into things, I'd say he might have gone so far as to drop a non-commital hint. (Sorry, but I'm not going to go scour for the video now - feel free to debate the point or correct me if I'm wrong).

I feel like some users on this forum are auto-apologists for Blackmagic. EVERY time someone brings up a feature request or a critique, there's this automatic response from a number of you that goes something like this, "Well what the #%$@ do you expect for a $3k camera?! Dumbass." (I'm paraphrasing).

Can we drop the $3k camera excuse for every misgiving of this camera?

I have one. I love it. Flaws and all. It's awesome. And it's not perfect. But that's ok. No camera is.

The question about adding higher frame rate options is a legitimate one, and no matter how many times it's come up on the boards, can we all collectively have the decency to either a) ignore the question if you feel you'e already contributed enough to answering it in the past or b) if you're going to contribute something, have a modicum of respect for the other users here? I'm looking at you Tamerlin.

The actual fact of the matter is nobody here really knows whether or not it's possible. Only Blackmagic does and they haven't officially responded one way or the other.

In terms of the super duper expensive high technology required to do high frame rates, I have a $400 Hero3 camera that does 120fps in 720p. Yes it's compressed into h.264, but it's recorded onto a micro SD card. I mean come on people. Seriously. At a minimum, it's possible that a firmware update could add more frame rate options to any or all of the BMC cameras. Stop acting like you have some kind of insider knowledge into the camera design, cuz chances seem really good that you don't.


Amongst the naysayers, finally someone who spoke up. Very closely opinionated as you are to this topic.

Jules you bring up a very good point. But to my knowledge a lot of hardware in various consumer ( in this case prosumer ) electronics are usually under utilized from the beginning for stability, etc.. Meaning they might have some extra ways to go.
( best example: no one expected RAW from the Canon DSLR's. )

Another element no one here seems to take into account, is software. ( firmware )

Hardware is the other half of how something works. I'm going to use Windows applications as an example, though it may not translate in anyway.

Re-writing code to be more efficient, and over-all faster could be a huge key to this. That doesn't necessarily mean new hardware.

Here is my example: V-ray 3.0 Beta ( a render engine. ) has been shown to be 2.66 times faster in brute force rending than the previous version while doing the same task. ( all in software changes. )

Yeah I know these are 2 very different things, and almost makes no sense to compare, the idea is the same.

Like you said Jules its not realistic to expect 2x faster computer just by overclocking. But if you cant making everything 2x faster at least make it to things that are most important.

double the frame rate, will probably mean making other components to 2x less of whatever they need to do. ( This may result is obvious quality loss. But it may be a sacrifice that will need to happen. )

I confident BMD has not officially come out and ruled out HFR because they know it will eventually come, it just may not be soon.

Csaba,
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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 8:10 am

djfern wrote:The question about adding higher frame rate options is a legitimate one, and no matter how many times it's come up on the boards, can we all collectively have the decency to either a) ignore the question if you feel you'e already contributed enough to answering it in the past or b) if you're going to contribute something, have a modicum of respect for the other users here?


This question has been asked now for over 18mths. The answer from those in the know has remained the same. "Not gonna happen in the current hardware."

So you can understand why the "apologists" keep pointing that out.

If was possible don't you think BM would have done it already? They sure would sell a lot more cameras...

Csaba Nagy

Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 8:43 am

They have probably been/will be busy with the launch of the camera's and some new firmware for the months to come. ( with stuff like audio meters, etc. )
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Re: Chill out guys...

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 9:13 am

djfern wrote:The actual fact of the matter is nobody here really knows whether or not it's possible.


I've got a pretty good idea.

It's next to impossible.

If you see higher frame rates, it will be on a V2 camera or a different model.

jb
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Pete Proniewicz-Brooks

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Re: Chill out guys...

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 10:04 am

Csaba Nagy wrote:
Jules you bring up a very good point. But to my knowledge a lot of hardware in various consumer ( in this case prosumer ) electronics are usually under utilized from the beginning for stability, etc.. Meaning they might have some extra ways to go.
( best example: no one expected RAW from the Canon DSLR's. )


And if they've left overhead in there for reasons like stability and reliability they'd be foolish to eat into it wouldn't they? It would push up their warranty repair rates and that could get costly. A ML style hack may get somewhere in unlocking stuff like this, but you may well find BMD withdrawing warranty cover where they feel the hack is the cause (Just as canon have with specific potential problems with the ML raw).

Csaba Nagy wrote:Another element no one here seems to take into account, is software. ( firmware )

Hardware is the other half of how something works. I'm going to use Windows applications as an example, though it may not translate in anyway.

Re-writing code to be more efficient, and over-all faster could be a huge key to this. That doesn't necessarily mean new hardware.

Here is my example: V-ray 3.0 Beta ( a render engine. ) has been shown to be 2.66 times faster in brute force rending than the previous version while doing the same task. ( all in software changes. )

Yeah I know these are 2 very different things, and almost makes no sense to compare, the idea is the same.


Not really, there's only so much you can do with software especially on specialized kits. PC's, macs and smartphones are commonly built in quite generalized ways, this means that there are quite big gains to be made in software optimizations. A lot of other kit particularly cameras are often built with much more specialized hardware that while technically less powerful it's specialized nature means it handles its task much better than general hardware with more brute force.

An example here are the RED cameras, If you take an SDI out of it while its filming then it's much better than a SDI out while, playing back in camera but a rocket accelerated computer using a full debayer to produce 1080p is indistinguishable from the original. The hardware in the camera is very well adapted to the compression but not the debayer process.

Csaba Nagy wrote:Like you said Jules its not realistic to expect 2x faster computer just by overclocking. But if you cant making everything 2x faster at least make it to things that are most important.

double the frame rate, will probably mean making other components to 2x less of whatever they need to do. ( This may result is obvious quality loss. But it may be a sacrifice that will need to happen. )


There is a slim possibility that that might work, but that assumes certain things about the relevant bottlenecks for this. It also assumes that BMD are willing to officially compromise the image of their camera to get this feature.


The person on this forum that has commented in this issue that is in a position to know says it is next to impossible on the current line up.
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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 10:06 am

Here is your higher frame rate option, right there in you pocket :-

http://9to5mac.com/2013/07/09/the-next- ... on-camera/

Csaba Nagy

Re: Chill out guys...

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 6:13 pm

John Brawley wrote:
djfern wrote:The actual fact of the matter is nobody here really knows whether or not it's possible.


I've got a pretty good idea.

It's next to impossible.

If you see higher frame rates, it will be on a V2 camera or a different model.

jb


John,

Thanks for really clearing that up. You have such a superior professional stance here, It's impossible to doubt your words.

But I ask you this, Why hasn't BMD come out just as you have with an official statement? They always seem to be absent from the HFR discussion..

Csaba,
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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 6:21 pm

Excuse me, since I'm a total noob here, and I'm surely no high-end video guy, but...

if a tiny little GoPro Hero 3 can do high resolutions at high frame rates, with very nice looking results, why can't the BM Pocket Camera?
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Re: Chill out guys...

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 6:40 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
djfern wrote:The actual fact of the matter is nobody here really knows whether or not it's possible.


I've got a pretty good idea.

It's next to impossible.

If you see higher frame rates, it will be on a V2 camera or a different model.

jb


John,

Thanks for really clearing that up. You have such a superior professional stance here, It's impossible to doubt your words.

But I ask you this, Why hasn't BMD come out just as you have with an official statement? They always seem to be absent from the HFR discussion..

Csaba,

We typically don't comment on plans for future firmware updates or future products. The engineers themselves are busy working nonstop to develop and manufacture the cameras, but you can trust JB!
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adamroberts

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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 7:23 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
djfern wrote:The actual fact of the matter is nobody here really knows whether or not it's possible.


I've got a pretty good idea.

It's next to impossible.

If you see higher frame rates, it will be on a V2 camera or a different model.

jb


John,

Thanks for really clearing that up. You have such a superior professional stance here, It's impossible to doubt your words.

But I ask you this, Why hasn't BMD come out just as you have with an official statement? They always seem to be absent from the HFR discussion..

Csaba,


John has said thus on several occasions. Just do a quick search. This is exactly why there are so many on thus thread saying the same thing. It been discussed at length over and over... It's getting boring.

BM have a policy of not commenting. This is not unusual for a manufacturer. Look at Apple, Sony, etc.

Just because they are quiet does not mean they are not listening. It's also not a sign of them making all your wishes and desires possible...
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostWed Jul 10, 2013 7:30 pm

josephrose wrote:if a tiny little GoPro Hero 3 can do high resolutions at high frame rates, with very nice looking results, why can't the BM Pocket Camera?

Because it's not a GoPro Hero MkII and doesn't aim to be one. It's labeled "cinema camera" for a reason, that is: it's designed to deliver outstanding image quality, not outstanding high framerates. I'm sure, if BM wanted to, they could / would develop an outstanding action camera - the Pocket CC just isn't that.

For every purpose, there's a device that excells in just that field, that's no different with cameras. Yet you won't find a single one camera that fullfills every customers wish.
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David Fernandes

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Re: Chill out guys...

PostSat Jul 13, 2013 5:11 pm

I think John and Christine's responses are the closest we'll get to a definitive answer. Thank-you

Presumably, audio meters are an easy add? That's number one for me personally. Don't care too much about HFR...
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Csaba Nagy

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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostSat Jul 13, 2013 7:04 pm

From the CEO himself:



skip to 10:20

The sensor is much higher resolution than the active region being used.

HFR is something they might be able to do. ( maybe not 60 but 48? )

Also contrary to what others say. ( though his response was a bit rushed, I will give you.)

He only only spoke about power and size when referring to the higher resolutions, nothing of processing.

( I imagine higher resolutions and higher frame rates can be related. )

In terms of size I would assume he means having the camera bigger for better cooling. ( which has been discussed here. )

Makes you think...
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Chill out guys...

PostMon Jul 15, 2013 12:21 am

djfern wrote:... Presumably, audio meters are an easy add? ...


Again, has been discussed numerous times, and JB has said more than once that it's not easy to do on the original BMCC-EF & BMCC-MFT cameras and might never be available on those cams.

I don't believe definitive statements about audio meters on the new cams (BMPCC & BMPC-4K) have been made by BMD employees or JB. We don't know if it's "easier" to do on the new cams, or if the situation is the same as with the BMCC cams. Unknown & unknowable.

Meanwhile, buy a camera based on its capabilities the day you buy it, not based on what it might be capable of (or not) someday via a firmware update -- because the firmware/feature update you want may never happen.

-
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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 11:18 pm

Hi - I am assuming this can capture 60fps 1080i if you record to an external source by judging the specs under the connections settings!: Please correct me if I am wrong. I am looking at purchasing this camera.

SDI Video Output 1 x 10-bit HD-SDI 4:2:2 with choice of Film or Video Dynamic Range. When recording is set to 25p or 29.97p with SDI Overlays switched off, the SDI output format is 1080i50 and 1080i59.94 respectively.
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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 11:52 pm

ifunk5 wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong

Sorry, you are. 60i output on this camera is still 30p capture, each image split into two fields for compatibility reasons. Only means you can connect it to displays that need 60i input.
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Kofa

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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 12:19 am

At the very least if they could do 60fps it would probably only be at 720p. I've managed to get usable slowish motion by recording at 30p and using twixtor. Of course not the best but it's very usable.
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Re: PLEASE - Higher Frame Rates

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 12:38 am

I think they are doing it because if they did, the next bitch would be "why is my memory card filling up after only 5 minutes?" :D
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