ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

I think this could be a problem. That form factor and ProRes Raw...

https://www.cinema5d.com/atomos-announc ... e2-camera/

I need BM to hurry... This is very tempting.

Why a problem? Isn't it just another camera choice?

Here's the current Atomos list. The Panasonic S1H comes out of beta next week. I want to see Leica/Atomos make an announcement on the Leica SL2.

Z Cam
E2 (in beta)

Nikon
Z6
Z7

Canon
C300 Mark II
C500

Sony
FS700
FS5 (with Upgrade)
FS7/FS7 II (with XDCA)
FX9 (with XDCA-FX9)

Panasonic
Varicam LT
EVA1
S1H (in beta)

DJI Inspire

Kinefinity
Mavo Edge (in beta)

Not a problem for me. That form factor requires buying more items making it more expensive than a BMPCC 4/6K out of the box and rigging which I'm not interested in doing; and we have BRAW on the BMPCC 4/6K and UMP G2.

Why a problem? Isn't it just another camera choice?

To me this is a direct hit to BM's core customer base. ZCAM didn't have a RAW option other than ZRAW which has to be manipulated in a separate editor and converted to something Premiere of Resolve liked. Now they have ProRes Raw using a little box that required an external monitor anyway. It's smaller and just as powerful as the Pocket 4K. 4k 60p 12bit ProRes Raw.... 4x4x4" cube... I'd say it's a problem. ZCAM was already creeping in to BM's market share very heavily.

I wouldn't be comfortable with ZCam support. Until they have centers in North America, I'm very skeptical of getting support from China, mind you having to get the camera replaced.

I want to see Leica/Atomos make an announcement on the Leica SL2.

Did you see this from the (ever petulant) Andrew Reid? https://www.eoshd.com/leica/leica-sl2-h ... -shooting/

Not a problem for me. That form factor requires buying more items making it more expensive than a BMPCC 4/6K out of the box and rigging which I'm not interested in doing; and we have BRAW on the BMPCC 4/6K and UMP G2.

The only thing it "requires" that is different from the Pocket is a monitor. Technically, it would be the price of the 6k with the E2 + the Atomos monitor.

So yeah, 4k to 4k it's more expensive... Double the price of the Pocket 4k.

However, to me, the form factor makes is much easier to work with as far as rigging goes. From rig to gimbal in seconds. I have to remove my Pocket 4k from it's cage to balance it on a Ronin S....

Did you see this from the (ever petulant) Andrew Reid? https://www.eoshd.com/leica/leica-sl2-h ... -shooting/

Thanks. Something to follow. It may be an issue with Reid's camera as the SL2 has been out for months and Reid appears to be the only person saying this. In any event, I would use the camera with manual lenses, which Reid has less of an issue over. I want to see whether anyone else confirms what Reid is saying, and if so whether the battery problem, if any, is resolved next month when Leica resumes shipping.

What I know for sure that I really like the camera, having spent a couple of hours with it, that it will be available for delivery in June and that Leica is refusing to say whether it will support ProRes Raw via Atomos. I still have to check out Panasonic's S1H, which has support as of next week. The key issue for me is L-mount, which makes it possible to port a Fujinon MK lens.

Thanks. Something to follow. It may be an issue with Reid's camera as the SL2 has been out for months and Reid appears to be the only person saying this.

There are others: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/30 ... w-battery/

But it's possible Leica will fix it; the current workarounds seem cumbersome.

There are others: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/30 ... w-battery/

But it's possible Leica will fix it; the current workarounds seem cumbersome.

Thanks, that thread is informative and quite a bit less alarmist than Reid's article. Something that I'll have to look into further with my Leica dealer (FotoCare) if I'm still inclined to the SL2 after looking at Panasonic's S1H. With Leica shipping the SL2 next month, I'd want to know that any battery issue has been addressed.

The Panasonic S1H/Atomos ProRes Raw update is now live, several days earlier than expected:

Adorama TV: Panasonic S1H Firmware 2.0 and the Atomos Ninja V

Discussion about Raw output starts 01:35:

The Panasonic S1H/Atomos ProRes Raw update is now live, several days earlier than expected...

I personally wouldn't pay $5,000 for a "video" camera in a DSLR form factor. I think 5k is approaching professional range, especially today. They should have just made a GH6 in my opinion.

Ok, there is an additional cost for recording media as well. These AtomX SSDmini's aren't too bad, but an additional cost. $200 for 500gb and $550 for 2tb.

The Panasonic S1H/Atomos ProRes Raw update is now live, several days earlier than expected...

I personally wouldn't pay $5,000 for a "video" camera in a DSLR form factor. I think 5k is approaching professional range, especially today. They should have just made a GH6 in my opinion.

Sounds like you aren't the target market. The camera has been approved by Netflix, so presumably they consider it pro enough.

The camera has been approved by Netflix, so presumably they consider it pro enough.

Technically a baby monitor could be approved if it recorded to the approved codecs, right?

The camera has been approved by Netflix, so presumably they consider it pro enough.

Technically a baby monitor could be approved if it recorded to the approved codecs, right?

The reality is that Netflix, which pays actual money for product, has approved the S1H for its productions. Sounds like you don't like that, but that's the way it is.

The camera has been approved by Netflix, so presumably they consider it pro enough.

Technically a baby monitor could be approved if it recorded to the approved codecs, right?

The reality is that Netflix, which pays actual money for product, has approved the S1H for its productions. Sounds like you don't like that, but that's the way it is.

I don't care one bit. I said "personally".... "i think"... "in my opinion"...

Sounds like you don't like that, but that's the way it is...

B&H has uploaded a more detailed video than Adorama’s (see above) on the Panasonic S1H ProRes Raw update, released today. The video includes a test with the Atomos Ninja V, although there are also beta examples on the internet:

Panasonic S1H RAW Firmware Update | Video Test with the Atomos Ninja V

I think it's great that ZCAM offers this. Perhaps this will push BM to support ProRes RAW in the future. Competition is great, and the real benefit of this is us, the consumer. We have so many great options coming up in the next month or so. It is up to BlackMagic to decide if they want to step up, or get left behind.

I think it's great that ZCAM offers this. Perhaps this will push BM to support ProRes RAW in the future.

Not in our lifetime. That will be wishful thinking.
There's no need too. We have BRAW which is more than better than ProRes RAW in many aspect.

We have BRAW which is more than better than ProRes RAW in many aspect.

I think that's the question for the OP.

What's the "must have" of ProRes RAW over BRAW ?

I get that the form factor of that camera is a desire.

But being forced to then record to an external monitor ? Why is that pain worth the advantage of ProRes RAW.

JB

However, to me, the form factor makes is much easier to work with as far as rigging goes. From rig to gimbal in seconds. I have to remove my Pocket 4k from it's cage to balance it on a Ronin S....

But aren't you then forced to have an atomos monitor hanging off your gimbal now ? Hardwired ?

Maybe you should go for a Komodo ?

JB

Does resolve support ProRes Raw yet? I thought it was I final cut X only format, so I don't get why it is such a big deal. Z-cam has ProRes internal recording on most models, why wouldn't they just apply to Apple to get Raw internal, why have to be tethered to a recorder like a dslr, unless it can do dual recording to an internal format for backup.

What I would love to see is Blackmagic work with z-cam, combine Blackmagic software with z-cam hardware, both user interface and recording. License them braw, camera control via video assist, but allow braw recording internal for crash cam, remote use. ZCam could compliment Blackmagic product line nicely, not direct competition. If ZCam was sold and supported through Blackmagic it could gain more confidence in North America, win win I think.

Resolve does not support ProRes Raw, only NLE is Apple’s FCP. Apple has a deal at this time with Atomos on ProResRaw recording, so not likely to get licensed to BMD. BMD is not currently licensing BRaw to any third party camera manufacturers, as they are keeping tight control on its implementation, as the codec has to be configured for each type of sensor, unlike ProRes.
Cheers

BMD is not currently licensing BRaw to any third party camera manufacturers, as they are keeping tight control on its implementation ...

Has Blackmagic said that? If so, do you know where one could find the source? That isn’t consistent with at least the spirit of Blackmagic’s official, public statements, such as this one: “it’s cross platform, freely available and includes a developer SDK so anyone can add support for Blackmagic RAW to their own software.”

It would certainly be news - probably quite big news - if the reason that camera manufacturers are generally adopting Apple’s codec rather than Blackmagic’s is that Blackmagic won’t license its codec.

Resolve does not support ProRes Raw, only NLE is Apple’s FCP.
Cheers

Actually Edius supports it as well.

I think this could be a problem. That form factor and ProRes Raw...

https://www.cinema5d.com/atomos-announc ... e2-camera/

I need BM to hurry... This is very tempting.

Man, not to knock the Mr. Bloom, but there was nothing appealing about the colors and CA i saw in the footage. Turned me off completely. The saturation of the colors isn't nice.

Z-cam has ProRes internal recording on most models, why wouldn't they just apply to Apple to get Raw internal, why have to be tethered to a recorder like a dslr, unless it can do dual recording to an internal format for backup.

Because RED......

JB

Rob, BMD stated this when BRaw was first released on the Ursa Mini Pro. The SDK developer kit is for third party NLEs to be able to edit Barack, like FCP, Premier, etc. It is the processing of BRaw files by third party NLEs that is “cross platform”.

Nothing to do with recording BRaw in a camera or external recorders, like the VA. BMDs response to other cameras recording BRaw is the VA 12G recording BRaw from the Canon and Panasonic EVA1, which support a raw stream Video output vis SDI. Perhaps VMDvwill extend this to a Raw over HDMI, which is to be seen.

No other camera maker has adopted ProResRaw internal recording either, and is only “adopted” by Panasonic and Nikon in that they provided a raw video output for Atomos to use for recording ProResRaw on their Ninja V. Only difference here is these manufacturers are working directly with Atomos, where BMD is doing their own sensor profile of an existing product.

BMD is not currently licensing BRaw to any third party camera manufacturers, as they are keeping tight control on its implementation ...

Has Blackmagic said that? If so, do you know where one could find the source? That isn’t consistent with at least the spirit of Blackmagic’s official, public statements, such as this one: “it’s cross platform, freely available and includes a developer SDK so anyone can add support for Blackmagic RAW to their own software.”

It would certainly be news - probably quite big news - if the reason that camera manufacturers are generally adopting Apple’s codec rather than Blackmagic’s is that Blackmagic won’t license its codec.

Indeed, BRAW is only available for free for decoding. It's not an open format for any camera to integrate (encoding), although it could become one if Blackmagic makes the move


Given that ZRAW quality seemed subpar, how is the quality of ProRes RAW out of the ZCAM going to look like compared to others cameras ?


Also, I don't see this as a direct competitor since it's not integrated into the camera, you need to buy and plug an external monitor

Hi Denny,

The question that I asked is whether you have a source for this statement about Blackmagic:

BMD is not currently licensing BRaw to any third party camera manufacturers, as they are keeping tight control on its implementation.

From your reply above, I gather that you don’t have a source.

The reason I asked is that I have not seen this claim elsewhere, surprising because it would be big news in the camera world if Blackmagic was deliberately refusing to let camera manufacturers use its codec. It would help explain why use of Apple’s codec is expanding and use of Blackmagic’s isn’t.

As I said, I do not think that that position is consistent with the spirit of the company’s previous statements about its codec. I apologise if my comment about that gave you the impression that I don’t know the difference between an app and a sensor. I guess that I assumed that “the spirit” is a well-understood term. Indeed, there are many who are under the impression that Blackmagic’s public statements favour, indeed encourage, implementation by camera manufacturers, this quote from Newsshooter being an example:

“I’m surprised that Blackmagic RAW hasn’t found its way into some other companies cameras. Blackmagic have said that they are very open to letting just about anyone use Blackmagic RAW as opposed to making it a closed system.”

Also, I don't see this as a direct competitor since it's not integrated into the camera, you need to buy and plug an external monitor

As a practical matter, this point, which has also been made earlier in this thread, doesn’t fit very well with the constant refrain of BMPCC owners that one should purchase a monitor to rig the camera properly

Although this thread started with a reference to the Z Cam E2, the issue is broader and includes, for example, Panasonic’s S1H, which Netflix has approved for its productions and which, as of yesterday, records ProRes Raw with an Atomos recorder. Indeed, I think that it’s a mistake to think that the issue is just about recording in Raw.

I think that many prospective purchasers of a BMPCC are likely to have the S1H on their short list unless they can’t afford one. In my own case, I am considering a move from a Pocket 4K to an S1H or Leica SL2, the move makes financial sense and one of the reasons is that I am happy with Apple’s codec and don’t care about Blackmagic’s. In saying that, I want to make it clear that I have nothing against Blackmagic’s codec, I’m just happy to use ProRes for what are, for me, practical reasons.

One thing that I don’t understand is what criticisms of Philip Bloom and/or Z Cam have to do with the substantive issue in this thread.

Rob, if BMD was licensing BRaw to another camera manufacturer for encoding (recording BRaw in Camera) you would know about it, this would be in the announcements section if nothing else. I do not have time to go back and dig up a statement made last year by BMD when BRaw was launched, you can do that if you like, search “BRaw on cameras” here if you like. It was also mentioned by Gram in his Pres conference when BRaw was released.

Also, the Panasonic S1H is not currently recording ProResRaw, not until May 25 as the soonest when the FW upgrade is due to be released, “ The RAW upgrade comes in the form of a FREE firmware update (v2.0). This will be available on the 25th of May to download.” News Shooter.

gimbal in seconds. I have to remove my Pocket 4k from it's cage to balance it on a Ronin S....

How? The Ronin-S when balanced can handle a light lens and the full Smallrig cage which results in unrestricted and stable movements.

Hell I have even used the Sigma 18-35 with rod+ff although with that weight you are only going to be doing small Gimbal movements and nothing too crazy.

However, to me, the form factor makes is much easier to work with as far as rigging goes. From rig to gimbal in seconds. I have to remove my Pocket 4k from it's cage to balance it on a Ronin S....

But aren't you then forced to have an atomos monitor hanging off your gimbal now ? Hardwired ?

Maybe you should go for a Komodo ?

JB

It’s on my list, if it’s even still coming... However, I would prefer an updated micro or a pocket in a new form factor.. An Ursa Micro would be interesting.. I’d sincerely rather give my money to Blackmagic.

Rob, if BMD was licensing BRaw to another camera manufacturer you would know, it would be in the announcements section if nothing else. I do not have time to go back and dig up a statement made last year when BRaw was launched, you can do that if you like, search “BRaw on cameras” here if you like.

Also, the Panasonic S1H is not currently recording ProResRaw, not until May 25 as the soonest when the FW upgrade is due to be released, “ The RAW upgrade comes in the form of a FREE firmware update (v2.0). This will be available on the 25th of May to download.” News Shooter.

Hi Denny,

Actually, the firmware update for the S1H was released out of beta yesterday. If you go up a few posts, you’ll find links to Adorama and B&H videos about the release.

It’s quite a leap to say that Blackmagic’s failure to license its codec to other manufacturers’ cameras shows that it is refusing to license it*.In the absence of a statement from Blackmagic to that effect, it looks to me like this falls into the wishful thinking category. The idea is simply inconsistent with widespread views on the Blackmagic codec, such as the Newsshooter quote that I already provided you. However, if you come up with a reference that supports what you’re saying, I’d be delighted to see it.

* The codec is available via Blackmagic’s video assist for two camera models, the Panasonic EVA1 and Canon EOS C300 Mark II.

Your quote was taken out of context, and was referring to deciding of BRaw on other NLEs like Premier or FCPX, not encoding.

Also, I went to Panasonic FW site, FW 2.0 for S1H is not available yet, Adorama is not Panasonic Support.
And in addition, did you look at all the camera functions on the S1H you loose when outputting Raw over HDMI?

Here is a list of things you need to know when outputting RAW over HDMI:

No internal recording is possible
The Photo Style is fixed on V-Log (the Photo Style doesn’t get applied to the RAW recording, but the display gamma on the camera will be shown as V-Log.
AWB, AWBc, AWBw, Daylight, Cloudy, Shade, Incandescent, Flash are unavailable in the white balance settings
White set 1-4 and Color temperature setting 1-4 are still available in the white balance settings
Loop Recording (Video) is disabled
VFR is disabled
Live Cropping is disabled
Focus Transition is disabled
Filter Effect is disabled
Time Stamp Record is disabled
Segmented File Recording is disabled
Image Area Of Video is disabled
Digital Zoom is disabled
Color Bars is disabled
MF Assist Display is disabled
Luminance level (fully fixed)
Vignetting Compensation is disabled
Diffraction Compensation is disabled
On the Ninja V, if you are receiving a 5.9K RAW signal from the S1H you cannot output a signal from HDMI to any other device.

Your quote was taken out of context, and was referring to deciding of BRaw on other NLEs like Premier or FCPX, not encoding.

Also, I went to Panasonic FW site, FW 2.0 for S1H is not available yet, Adorama is not Panasonic Support.
And in addition, did you look at all the camera functions on the S1H you loose when outputting Raw over HDMI?

Denny, what this comes down to is that there is no apparent support anywhere for your claim that Blackmagic is refusing to license its codec to other camera manufacturers. Your last post makes it clear that the claim is based on a leap of logic that is fundamentally flawed. It sounds like this is just something that you want to believe, perhaps because it would help explain why Apple's codec is enjoying more widespread support.

B&H has now edited its video description to say that the S1H firmware update will indeed come out of beta next week, May 25. I have no idea what substantive difference this makes to anything. If you want to know what the output looks like, there are already examples on the internet, including in B&H's own video.

I am not going to comment on the rest of your post because I do not believe, as I have said in the past, that there is anything to be gained from talking about the substantive features of other cameras on this forum. Also, while I am interested in who is supporting what codecs, image sizes and frame rates, I don't see any point in talking about the relative merits of Apple's and Blackmagic's codecs on a Blackmagic forum. So far in this thread, there have been shots at Philip Bloom, Z Cam and Panasonic. All pretty typical.

.....for your claim that Blackmagic is refusing to license its codec to other camera manufacturers.

Dude, get a clue. The only one proposing this idea is you.

Good Luck

Maybe a solution would be if BMD made a paid proresraw plug in for resolve. Then those that want it could get it and feel happy. Of course it would be negotiated with Apple for a fee . Then the apple tax would be paid by those that want it, not BMD nor the rest of us.

Ricardo Marty

Rob, Nor is there any support for your claim BMD will or has licensed BRaw Encoding to anyone.
Also, three cameras from two manufacturers is not exactly wide spread support for Atomos/Apple ProRes Raw either. Both BRaw (VA12G) and ProResRaw (Atomos SDI recorders) are supported on the Panasonic EVA1 and Canon C200, so that is a draw.

There are now only three cameras that can output a RAW signal over HDMI.The Nikon Z6, Nikon Z7, and Panasonic S1H. RAW over HDMI was announced way back in January 2019
News Shooter

.....for your claim that Blackmagic is refusing to license its codec to other camera manufacturers.

The only one proposing this idea is you.

Hey, if that isn't what Denny is saying, great. The discussion arises from this:

BMD is not currently licensing BRaw to any third party camera manufacturers, as they are keeping tight control on its implementation.

I'd just like to know whether that is true or not. As far as I can tell, there is no support for it anywhere, and Denny, while continuing to say that it's true, doesn't appear to be able to provide any.

Rob, you can take the info for what it is worth or not, I do not care.
Goodby

I think that Blackmagic's codec is dependent on the future of Blackmagic cameras unless the company gets other camera manufacturers to buy into its codec. Panasonic's S1H strikes me as a fairly big deal, especially if it's a harbinger of what's to come. At the moment, Apple's ProRes appears to have a significant advantage, in post let alone capture, and I also think that raw is just one piece, perhaps more of symbolic than of practical significance, of a much larger issue.

During a webinar that I watched last week, a representative of Fujinon said that in the U.S. ProRes is ubiquitous. I recognise that Fujinon is also aligned with Atomos/ProRes, but if that's true achieving Blackmagic codec market share is no easy task. At the top level, where a major rental house like Abel Cine doesn't even offer Blackmagic cameras, it would seem to be a particularly daunting problem.

I think we'll know in a year or two whether Blackmagic's codec is basically an in-house product or can achieve more widespread acceptance.

All is not well with ProResRaw over HDMI either, seems compressing the data stream into the HDMI cable is causing issues p, at lest with the Nikon Z6 at this point. We need to wait and see how the S1H plays out.
Here are the issues discovered so far:

A test has shown all is not well with the Z6 in ProRes RAW mode to Atomos Ninja V. There seems to be significant moire and aliasing and a lack of 6K full pixel readout going on with the image.

Falk Lumo shows us why

This could be due to two reasons in my opinion:

The image data might have to be compressed or binned in order to be transmitted via HDMI, with limited bandwidth available for the signal
The sensor might have to run in a pixel binning mode to sample the data fast enough at the higher bit-depth (12bit compared to the usual 10bit for N-LOG)

It’s still a strange situation though, as the camera is clearly capable of a very nice 6K sensor readout in normal 10bit N-LOG mode via HDMI (YUV).
Internally the Z6 has a crisp 4K image as well, oversampled from that lovely 6K sensor readout. Hardly any moire, or any aliasing.

Shooting Z Log in 10-bit to a PixE does not display any of these issues. Anyway, I am not a big Raw shooter, prefer Film Log to ProResHD or 4.2.2 for what I shoot.
Cheers

I'm not sure Blackmagic cares about codec market share; I thought they were using in-camera Braw as an enticement for people to choose Blackmagic cameras. You can have a small share of a big market and still make a good living; Apple demonstrated that even before the iPod and iPhone when their computer business had less than 1% market share.

I agree Brad, but it would be nice to have the option to record BRaw on the new VA with the Nikon Z6 or Panasonic S1H via HDMI, if the HDMI bandwidth issues can be solved. BMD is the only camera option out there for in camera raw recording (not including the Sony or Varicam external dedicated recorders that mount to the camera back), aside from Red, who has Camera Raw recording locked down.
Cheers

I'm not sure Blackmagic cares about codec market share; I thought they were using in-camera Braw as an enticement for people to choose Blackmagic cameras. You can have a small share of a big market and still make a good living; Apple demonstrated that even before the iPod and iPhone when their computer business had less than 1% market share.

Hi Brad,

What an interesting perspective. I decided awhile ago that I don't want to be tied to Blackmagic's ecosystem. It was a good idea to purchase a Pocket 4K last fall, but I'm unlikely to use it or other Blackmagic cameras in the medium to long term.

It hasn't even occurred to me that Blackmagic's game plan could be for its codec to be principally an in-house product. If so, that reinforces my disinclination to spend time and effort on it, and inclination to adopt a different camera system, probably L-mount.

I got a smile from your comment about Apple. Going way back, you're right, but I have reason to believe that Apple's increase in market share over the last ten years or so has had benefits. On a personal level, it's why I have time to play around on this forum.

gimbal in seconds. I have to remove my Pocket 4k from it's cage to balance it on a Ronin S....

How? The Ronin-S when balanced can handle a light lens and the full Smallrig cage which results in unrestricted and stable movements.

Hell I have even used the Sigma 18-35 with rod+ff although with that weight you are only going to be doing small Gimbal movements and nothing too crazy.

Hey Karl, not to move away from the OP's topic, you quoted the wrong person. Do make sure when you are quoting someone's post is that you are referring the quote from the correct person who wrote it. I did not wrote what is quoted under my handle.