Future of m43 black magic support

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Adamflynn

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Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 6:25 am

Hi guys.
I was one of those people who got excited to finally see availability of bmpcc4k.
Years were passed since the original bmpcc camera and figured the new camera was going to have some life to it.
Sadly two months or less of my purchase, the 6k camera was announced.
I already had a bunch of Ef lenses, so it was a bit of a bummer.

I do like the smaller form factor of m43 and had purchased a voightlandet 17mm/35mm equivalent.
It’s a great setup.
I would actually like to purchase the additional f.95 voightlander lenses.


My question is , do you believe blackmagic will come out with new pocket cinema camera in m43 format, or will they go with ff mounts Moving forwards?
Would appreciate the advice.
Thanks in advance.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 6:03 pm

With Olympus out of the game and Panasonic offering FF next to MFT models, I'd expect MFT to die out sooner or later. But I'm sure there will be a place for S-35 and FF. Question is: which mount? Mounts with a long focal distance like EF seem to be doomed too…
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 6:27 pm

I use ef mount like jolly during last ten years and I bought many good adapter for m4/3, Sony e mount, fx mount, and more.
A longer flange can be adapted on shorter, the opposite no.
Actually there are tons of camera on market with that mount, it’s impossible that disappear in the next 5 years, then over 5 years I hope for you that you earn a lots to cover every single cent spent on that tools, or the mount will not be the main problem.

I’m from Genoa, all shop must be good business. Canon mount keep their value along the time, different brand often lower a lots their value on used market. I often bought and later sell a lens near to the same price after one two years. With Panasonic lenses were not the same.


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John Brawley

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 7:50 pm

1. Olympus hasn't left us just yet. They sold their imaging business to another company. Maybe that company will keep making cameras, maybe a lot cheaper. But they will still be m4/3 cameras. But they won't suddenly be changing for the next 24-48 months.

2. A (good) FF sensor size is difficult because of the costs. If you think about it, what GOOD and DECENT video camera with a short rolling shutter time and a good 10 bit PLUS RAW codec internally recording is on the market ? There are plenty of FF video cameras. Not so many once you say short integration time and RAW and 12/10 bit. If they do a 135 / FF camera in the near future, I don't think it will be "pocket" cheap....


Mounts is a really tricky one. I doubt RF mount is available. Canon don't share with the exception of Komodo, and likely that's part of a more complex IP swap for recording RAW in camera.

Sony's e mount will never happen, because Sony never share.

L mount could MAYBE be a mount, but as yet it's a bit unproven for cinema use...

I'd much rather they stick to PL and or LPL BUT the problem then is that there's no good way for carrying comms to the stills lenses we all love using that require power for IS and iris.

So what's left....

Maybe to make their own mountless camera...leave some wires and screw holes and let the aftermarket vendors make the mount adaptors ??

Make their own universal mount ? Try and get some lens makers to adopt it ? Sigma ? The new Olympus optics company ?

JB
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Uli Plank

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 9:39 pm

There's already a good adapter from PL to L mount by C7.

Oh, and I love my Olympus glass, but I doubt that we'll see much more under that name.
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Ryan Earl

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 10:34 pm

John Brawley wrote:Maybe to make their own mountless camera...leave some wires and screw holes and let the aftermarket vendors make the mount adaptors ??

Make their own universal mount ? Try and get some lens makers to adopt it ? Sigma ? The new Olympus optics company ?


Buying PL lenses at this point is getting pretty affordable when they pop up used. I've bought PL cameras to have the ability to rent the higher end PL lenses, even if those times are few and far between.

Meike had announced the PL version of a 35mm in a new housing. I wonder how close the optics are to the Veydra / Meike mft platform. The pricing seems very low, under $1,000. They also announced it in RF for Komodo.

Blackmagic already have the interchanging mount options on URSA Mini Pro, adapting that ability to the smaller sensor cameras or prioritizing MFT mount in a new housing with a super-35 sensor would really be great. MFT lenses that cover super35 would be a little more future proof.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 12:04 am

Certainly the camera manufacturers believe that they can make a lot of money by getting people to switch everything over to full frame. Time will tell if in these uncertain economic times, there will be a mass movement in that direction. Traditionally films have not been shot in this aspect.

For wide shots, full frame can produce a cleaner image. That's a small part of the story you're trying to tell in a film though.

I think that the M4/3 mount has too much to offer to be discontinued. The new Z CAM E2-M4 has an M4/3 mount and should be popular. The long term strategy for a Cinematographer would be to have access to good Cinema lenses, either to rent or buy. The traditional standard for these has been the ARRI PL mount. An EF mount camera has a much more limited range of PL mount lenses that can be adapted, due to it's flange distance. The M4/3 mount has access to virtually any lens that was made to be used in a film camera, including a wide range of PL mount lenses.

There is a wide variety of formerly very expensive Super 16 Cinema lenses that can be had for peanuts. The 2.6K sensor area option of the BMPCC 4K gives you access to them.

One unique aspect of the M4/3 mount is the fact that it has a two stop advantage over full frame in the depth of field. This means that both foreground and background is in focus. When using longer lenses, you can get shots with it that would not be possible with a full frame camera.

Here is a comparison between the M4/3 Voightlander 42.5mm F/0.95 lens and a full frame Leica 90mm F/2.0 APO Summicron-M ASPH lens:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=109240&p=603530&hilit=S1H+bottom#p603530

I would have no hesitation in buying more Voightlander M4/3 lenses longer than 17.5mm. They will be of use for some time, and a good investment, even if you someday have the funds to go full frame for your wide shots.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 2:13 am

So far I only shoot PL-mount lenses. Doesn’t matter much to me if the sensor size varies greatly. As long as I can use the same lenses. The Tokina 11-20mm doesn’t do 135 film format but the SLR Magic primes are fine anywhere. What’s more important is the pixel pitch; few manufacturers seem to really want larger pixels on larger sensors. Sure if I needed to shoot 8K or 16K, I’d want a bigger sensor.

Sounds crazy but the next top of the line iPhone may shoot HFR up to 240 fps 4K!
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 3:28 am

John Brawley wrote:1.
Sony's e mount will never happen, because Sony never share.
- Olympus visionary (still going yes)


Sigma makes sony e mount lens aspc at least, Tamron is also making an e mount. However, I wish someone could find a way of making an e to mft mount adapter.

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 7:07 am

Not possible, as the E Mount (18mm) has a shorter FFD than MFT (19.25mm), to make an adapter you need the FFD to be shorter on the camera than the adapted lens, not the other way round... ;)
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 7:53 am

Ryan Earl wrote:Blackmagic already have the interchanging mount options on URSA Mini Pro, adapting that ability to the smaller sensor cameras or prioritizing MFT mount in a new housing with a super-35 sensor would really be great. MFT lenses that cover super35 would be a little more future proof.


Even if JVC has a camera with S-35 and MFT, it's very narrow for that sensor size and would limit the adaptation of lenses.
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Ryan Earl

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 2:25 pm

Yeah I’m thinking of those E mount full frame users with the SLR Magic 25mm Microprime. Now Zcam with the MFT full frame option. Any huge drawbacks there? They are letting you change mounts as others have mentioned.

I’ve set up my pocket 4K with either a metabones PL to MFT Cine with a baseplate to lock them together or the SLR Magic 25mm MFT .95

I’d buy a new interchanging or mountless camera, even a universal evf with hdmi. Treating those options as accessories definitely extends the life of the camera. My URSA mini doesn’t know I have my lcd screen open these days and I have to press play then record to change menu items.
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rick.lang

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostThu Jul 02, 2020 12:56 am

Ryan Earl wrote:... My URSA mini doesn’t know I have my lcd screen open these days and I have to press play then record to change menu items.


Haven’t heard of that sad issue! Was BMD Support able to provide and assistance?
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostThu Jul 02, 2020 2:48 am

Ryan, I doubt the ZCam will stay in FF mode with the MFT Mount attached, it will probably window the sensor down, as a MFT Mount would vignette the sensor, let alone any MFT Mount lens you add.

I have decided I am not buying anymore MFT lenses. Going to stick with my Zeiss ZF collection, and may add the Zeiss Milvus 21mm to my kit.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostThu Jul 02, 2020 3:14 am

Thanks for all the wonderful responses guys. M43 seems like a good format, and I feel is like to stick with it and make the investment into the voightlander f.095 lenses. They’ll be a much bigger investment than the camera body, and I hope blackmagic will continue to make pocket cinema cameras with the m43 format in the future. Do you think they’ll make a 6k m43 for example?

Thanks again!
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Ryan Earl

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostThu Jul 02, 2020 12:27 pm

rick.lang wrote:Haven’t heard of that sad issue! Was BMD Support able to provide and assistance?


I'm not sure if it is hardware or firmware related. I haven't addressed it yet since it doesn't affect recording clips, and there is an easy way to get around it. I will probably email them soon. It's had the same firmware for a long time, it feels like it needs a "security and stability" update like on Mac when you run an outdated OS.

Concerning "Future of m43 black magic support" it would be helpful if they established long term support time frames like they do for Mac OS, at least for firmware in the cameras.
Denny Smith wrote:Ryan, I doubt the ZCam will stay in FF mode with the MFT Mount attached, it will probably window the sensor down, as a MFT Mount would vignette the sensor, let alone any MFT Mount lens you add.

I have decided I am not buying anymore MFT lenses. Going to stick with my Zeiss ZF collection, and may add the Zeiss Milvus 21mm to my kit.


I held a set of Veydra MFT for 4 years waiting to see what came up for them for super35 sensors. :?

I switched this year to a set of used CP.2 PL lenses for a bit more money and more flexibility. The URSA 4.6K is still my go to in PL. The 21mm Zeiss CP.2 is great, it seems to have the lowest amount of CA in the set. Do you already have a 21mm? I've had the 20mm Nikon AIS for fifteen years, that's always been one of my favorite focal lengths on 135 / full frame.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostThu Jul 02, 2020 5:40 pm

Adamflynn wrote:M43 seems like a good format, and I feel is like to stick with it and make the investment into the voightlander f.095 lenses.

I think you will be happy cutting between a set of fast Voightlanders. You get a good taste of a sharp long DOF at closed apertures and thanks to it's speed, a dreamy, cinematic shallow DOF at open apertures with ND filtering. With a BMPCC 4K in available light, they can deliver acceptable images that would look terrible otherwise.

Here is the Voightlander 42.5mm F/0.95 lens on the BMPCC 4K. The background is from a Vormaxlens 60mm EF-S F/1.8 Petzval lens through a DEC Lensregain 0.75x focal reducer.
Screenshot_20200702-104628.jpg
Voightlander 42.5mm F/0.95 lens
Screenshot_20200702-104628.jpg (544.54 KiB) Viewed 1749 times

Here is the Voightlander 25mm F/0.95 lens on the BMPCC 4K (cropped image):
4B005242V1BkRevealA.jpg
Voightlander 25mm F/0.95 lens
4B005242V1BkRevealA.jpg (661.82 KiB) Viewed 1759 times

Here is the Voightlander 17.5mm F/0.95 lens on the BMPCC 4K. The San Francisco background is from a 1966 37mm Mir-1 F/2.8 lens through a DEC Lensregain 0.75x focal reducer.
A010_05111044_C052LtA.jpg
Voightlander 17.5mm F/0.95 lens
A010_05111044_C052LtA.jpg (848.7 KiB) Viewed 1759 times
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Denny Smith

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 03, 2020 3:04 am

Ryan, I am going back a forth between the Zeiss 21mm and the new Nikon Z 20mmS lens. I know the Zeiss 21mm is a great lens, and I am leaning that direction.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 03, 2020 5:21 am

The Zeiss is carrying the genes of the Zeiss/Yashica Distagon 21mm, which is a legend. People are still paying very high prices for that one.
And then, Nikon lenses are focusing the other way round. You can fix that with a follow focus, but it'll drive you mad when focusing directly.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 03, 2020 1:16 pm

Adamflynn wrote:
My question is , do you believe blackmagic will come out with new pocket cinema camera in m43 format, or will they go with ff mounts Moving forwards?
.


People can speculate all they want, but nobody knows what Blackmagic is going to do. Speculation on what the company would announce this past April was both rife and almost completely wrong. People couldn't even accurately predict in March 2020 what Blackmagic would announce the following month.

Personally, I'm not interested in making decisions based what Blackmagic might or might not do in the future. My own "solution" is to own lenses that work with L-mount. To me, it just doesn't make sense to organise my life, and in particular lens purchases, around a $1300 Pocket 4K. Every one of my lenses, with the exception of a 50 year old Nikkor macro, is worth more than the camera, which is a lot more easily replaced than the lenses.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 03, 2020 2:48 pm

Uli Plank wrote:There's already a good adapter from PL to L mount by C7.

Oh, and I love my Olympus glass, but I doubt that we'll see much more under that name.


Uli,
No guarantees these will come to fruition but a link to this roadmap showed up in my email yesterday.

Image

Orange is under development. Looks like they're committing to the 150-400 and 8-25 Pro lenses.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 03, 2020 3:52 pm

As long as they continue to produce the P4k for the next few years you should be good. Remember that most solid state cameras don't just die, and can have a long life. I'm still using the original pocket from 2013 and performs as new.

It can be frustrating to want to invest in good manual lenses that you know will last a lifetime when it is uncertain that there will be a viable camera to run them on down the road. The trend is certainly moving back to the full frame stills format now that large sensors are more affordable and codecs can handle the data, but there are situations where the smaller sensors are better, faster readout, better rolling shutter.

I've been debating the Meike cine line, now that the set is nearly done it is very tempting. They are a good match for my current cameras, and who knows I may continue to shoot them indefinitely, I love the look and don't need 4k, but there is of course the nagging of what will they work on in 5 to 10 years. Full frame ef or pl will always be able to be adapted, but are of course much more money, and out of reach of hobbyists.
Dop16mm on the other forum
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 03, 2020 4:03 pm

Curtis Campsall wrote:I've been debating the Meike cine line, now that the set is nearly done it is very tempting. They are a good match for my current cameras, and who knows I may continue to shoot them indefinitely, I love the look and don't need 4k, but there is of course the nagging of what will they work on in 5 to 10 years.


Some lens manufacturers allow you to change mounts (or send them/bring them in to be changed). Tokina is a good example (see https://www.ducloslenses.com/products/t ... -mount-kit) and Sigma offers a mount conversion service (https://www.sigmaphoto.com/service-supp ... on-service). Third parties like MTF Services offer lens conversion as well: https://www.mtfservices.com/fuji-mk-len ... conversion.

In my case I only own three MFT lenses (a Panasonic, an SLR Magic, and a Veydra) and don't plan to buy any more even though my two cinema cameras both have MFT mounts. I have a couple of Nikon-mount lenses (Tokina and Sigma) adapted with and without speedboosters to give me a wide range of focal lengths, and I like the Nikon mount because you can get adapters with clickless manual aperture control. I also have some older lenses from Minolta (Rokinon) and Helios that I use with adapters. You can adapt just about anything except e-mount to MFT-mount cameras.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 03, 2020 4:20 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:Third parties like MTF Services offer lens conversion as well: https://www.mtfservices.com/fuji-mk-len ... conversion.
.


In addition to the MTF Services conversion of those US$3000 Fujinon ciné lenses to L-mount, which costs all of £225, Fujinon will also convert them to Fujifilm X-mount.

If there's a lesson here, it's to avoid purchasing lenses that effectively lock one into a Blackmagic Pocket 4K camera body.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 03, 2020 5:23 pm

Rob
I purchased a Sigma 24-105 EF for a UMP, and later realised I didn't want/need EF (was for a BMD Ursa UMP)
Changing aperture had a click sound, 'auto focus' a joke, the UMP is more a tripod camera in my view, so no need of lens stabilisation
That lens was nice on other cameras...

Their Nikon F mount was super - but only manual of course ...
I have a background as photographer with 4"x5" so manual focus is OK with me :)

Conversion by Sigma to Nikon F meant transfer to Japan, and price was really crazy
The Sigma ended with a friend using Canon EF :)

This year I bought a BMPCC4K, after some thinking, was aware of the M43 future, also about the flange advantage
I've had Nikon F since early 1980's so lots of lenses
Bought a cheap M43/Nikon F converter, no glass, no electronic
Was of course sloppy both rotation and bending as commented on the forum

I have access to a mechanical workshop so I made two aluminium pieces that fixes the converter to a SmallRig cage
Surprisingly most of the flex rotation was converter to camera, this was of course dead locked by my aluminium pieces, same with 'bending'

So lots of lenses from my Nikon F collection with good manual function

Since the camera 'knows' more than manual lenses I checked this amazing forum, and got several positives on the Olympus 12-100/4

Especially from Robert Niessner - thank you!

I bought that lens and I'm really impressed by it's quality
Think it is 'the' official lens for BMPCC4K
---
Coming from still photography I'm curious of the combination of extreme wide aperture and heavy ND filters
Why complicate things :)

Optical quality is best if you don't introduce extra glass in front of expensive lens
Nowadays video log/raw has extreme ISO values compared to still/film era
Native log at 800 ISO

Do we really want so high native ISO?

With dual native ISO, could the lower native ISO be moved down so 'bread and butter' daylight filming don't need ND filters?

Seems stupid to me, at a live concert to use ear protection, why not reduce a bit
Same at normal daylight/sun to first improve sensor, then put a ND filter in front of lens
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 03, 2020 7:20 pm

ricardo marty wrote:
John Brawley wrote:1.
Sony's e mount will never happen, because Sony never share.
- Olympus visionary (still going yes)


Sigma makes sony e mount lens aspc at least, Tamron is also making an e mount. However, I wish someone could find a way of making an e to mft mount adapter.


Ahh...but who makes a sony e mount CAMERA ??That’s what I mean. Sony are happy for other LENS MAKERS to make e mount, but you can only buy a sony made E MOUNT camera.

JB
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostSat Jul 04, 2020 4:57 am

Adamflynn wrote:My question is , do you believe blackmagic will...


There's no way to know. Make a decision with what you do know.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostSat Jul 04, 2020 8:17 am

bjornzitting wrote:Nowadays video log/raw has extreme ISO values compared to still/film era
Native log at 800 ISO

Do we really want so high native ISO?

With dual native ISO, could the lower native ISO be moved down so 'bread and butter' daylight filming don't need ND filters?

It’s a function of LOG that the native or base ISO appears high as ISO is a single measurement at a midway point on the exposure curve. If you had a linear response it would be likely 100 ISO.
Which is what I said, and even though this is what I was talking about, there is not too much comparison between your actions at the moment compared to some not around here.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostSat Jul 04, 2020 4:18 pm

bjornzitting wrote:Coming from still photography I'm curious of the combination of extreme wide aperture and heavy ND filters
Why complicate things :)


The shutter speeds and apertures commonly used in cinematography are vastly different from those used in still photography. Most motion capture (USA/NA) is happening ~1/48 or 1/60, likewise deep stops are avoided for a variety of reasons both technical and artistic.

Good Luck
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostSat Jul 04, 2020 5:14 pm

ZCAM S6 MFT Mount:


ZCAM F6 MFT Mount:
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Denny Smith

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostSat Jul 04, 2020 7:28 pm

Yes, it works, because this ZCam E2 is a 4/3rds sensor, as in Panasonic GH5S size Sony sensor, not a S35 size sensor.
Cheers
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Que Thompson

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostSat Jul 04, 2020 8:17 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, it works, because this ZCam is a 4/3rds sensor, as in Panasonic GH5S size Sony sensor, not a S35 size sensor.
Cheers
The S6 is a Super35 and the F6 is a FF. I don’t think MFT lenses would work on it, but it looks like a Speedbooster with S35 or FF lenses work. I’d like to see how a MFT lens would look on there though.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostSun Jul 05, 2020 6:14 am

Right, missed it was a S6. Not sure how they are putting a MFT Mount on a S35 Camera, the MFT lens mount diameter is too small to allow full coverage of the sensor. Most MFT lenses will vignette on the larger sensor. The longer Veydra and similar manual Cine lenses may cover the sensor, depending on its actual size.
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Ryan Earl

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostSun Jul 05, 2020 11:31 am

Denny Smith wrote:Right, missed it was a S6. Not sure how they are putting a MFT Mount on a S35 Camera, the MFT lens mount diameter is too small to allow full coverage of the sensor. Most MFT lenses will vignette on the larger sensor. The longer Veydra and similar manual Cine lenses may cover the sensor, depending on its actual size.


According to the video, if you already have the MFT lenses you can mount them on the camera in a crop mode or with some vignetting when set to record with the full sensor. It's pretty vague at this point.

Que Thompson wrote:I’d like to see how a MFT lens would look on there though.


Me too. I'm just curious about where the overlap is because they happened to make MFT mount available to the S6.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostSun Jul 05, 2020 6:37 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:Me too. I'm just curious about where the overlap is because they happened to make MFT mount available to the S6.


Is that a permanent mount ? You then have to go through MFT adapted to whatever else ?

Something I've never been very clear on with Zcam is their bit depth....

They seem to often quote different numbers and it's confusing if they're talking about the SENSOR bit depth or the CODEC bit depth.

It's often the case that some sensors have higher bit depths than the record codec. Arri RAW is a good example, and for some BMD cameras too.

With Z cam it almost seems the opposite.

For example they say in sentence....

"In 2018, the Z CAM E2 was introduced as a low cost, 4K 160fps & 10 bit color cinema camera"

Which from what I can see of the operating modes and specs infers the sensor is running in 10 bit mode..(you then get higher frame rates and less RS)

And then on the specs page for this camera they talk about 12 Bit ProRes RAW.

Which begs the question...is the sensor operating in 10 bit mode and they're recording that into a 12bit ProRes RAW container or is it now a 12bit sensor camera ? They also sometimes refer to recording "Zraw" and then other places talk of "ZRAW (partial debayer)" without reference to bit depth on some models and then on other specs list for different models they do specify the bit depth as "12-bit ZRAW" Is it linear or LOG ?

I've only used the original Zcam but haven't used any of their subsequent cameras. Is there a consensus on this ?

JB
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Que Thompson

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostSun Jul 05, 2020 9:00 pm

The mount is interchangeable. I know there is at least MFT and EF available.

I don’t know anything about the bit depth.
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Fabián Aguirre

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jul 06, 2020 8:36 pm

I'm a little bit late to the party but, as an owner of a couple BMPCC4Ks, I am always a bit suspicious of the hyperbolic claims some folks make (not here but certainly in a few other threads on this forum) about the impending death of MFT.

I made the switch to MFT from years shooting on the BMPCC, the original pocket and the micro (with speedboosters), and later with the Ursa Mini 4.6K, which l loved to death, even though mine suffered from crippling FPN at anything above 400 ISO. Since then, my kits are lighter, more versatile, and the images I'm getting surpass anything I've ever shot in my short, 12 year career as a documentary cinematographer.

I own all of the Voigtlander Nokton lenses, with the exception of the very latest one-- the 60mm-- which I cannot wait to add to my kit. At less than $1000 for most of the lenses in this series (I bought a couple of them for around $500 used in great condition), there is simply no room to complain. Even if MFT support disappeared from manufacturers overnight, the investment I made in these cheap lenses, by any reasonable comparison, was well worth it as they have already paid for themselves many times over in just a few jobs. Moreover, Blackmagic's hypothetical decision to move away from MFT in the future would not render my two cameras suddenly useless-- I would still be able to produce 4K, HDR, HFR, images in Blackmagic Raw or ProRes, which is better than most full frame mirrorless cameras (and heck, even better than most FS7-type cameras) available in the market today.

I also love the fact that I can slap a nice zoom, like a Canon 70-200, to these cameras with a Metabones non-speedboosted adapter, and get nearly twice the reach, with stabilization. Or the lovely Helios 58mm for an ultra dreamy look.

All of this is to say that I am very excited about the future of BMD, and I can't wait to see what they have planned for this year (or next) in terms of camera developments. I, too, expect a move to large format in some capacity, likely in the Ursa Mini line or a new product, but I can't imagine they'll abandon APSC any time soon, or ever.

More than anything, I hope for better pixels, not more, and a dual gain sensor in the larger cameras (the main reason I moved from Ursa Mini, even though I think that camera makes the best overall image). Finally, I hope for full support of Braw inside FCPX, so I can still do my grade in Resolve but remove one step of the round tripping in my workflow. And sure, an interchangeable mount for future cameras would be spectacular.

Here are a few frames I have captured from various projects in the last year or so:

Image
Shot on the Sirui 50mm (1.33x) anamorphic lens for MFT

Image
Shot on the 17.5mm Voigtlander Nokton

Image
Shot on the Helios 58mm

Image
Shot on the Canon 70-200 f/2.8 with a Metabones non-speedbooster

Image
Shot on the 25mm Voigtlander Nokton

Image
Shot on the 10.5mm Voigtlander Nokton
Last edited by Fabián Aguirre on Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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John Brawley

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jul 06, 2020 8:37 pm

That is some stunning work !!!

Thanks for sharing....

JB
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Fabián Aguirre

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jul 06, 2020 8:54 pm

John Brawley wrote:That is some stunning work !!!

Thanks for sharing....

JB


Thanks, John! Hope you're enjoying NOLA (as much as one can, under the current circumstances).
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jul 06, 2020 9:43 pm

Incredible shots fabian. Framing, light, DOF, grading, lens whack(?). Truly inspiring.
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Fabián Aguirre

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jul 06, 2020 11:54 pm

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:Incredible shots fabian. Framing, light, DOF, grading, lens whack(?). Truly inspiring.


Thank you, Oyvind, for your kind comments. Are you referring to the optical distortions on the black and white footage? That's the result of placing, and playing with, translucent objects in front of the lens-- no lens whacking there. You can see it in motion here:

https://vimeo.com/389182050/0fd8e9695b
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jul 07, 2020 8:18 am

Fabián Aguirre wrote:
Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:Incredible shots fabian. Framing, light, DOF, grading, lens whack(?). Truly inspiring.


Thank you, Oyvind, for your kind comments. Are you referring to the optical distortions on the black and white footage? That's the result of placing, and playing with, translucent objects in front of the lens-- no lens whacking there. You can see it in motion here:

https://vimeo.com/389182050/0fd8e9695b


Love it. The usage is good balanced, not overexposed. Yes, it’s more obvious that you didn’t do lens whacking when I see it in motion. The object in front of the lens seem to be attached not floating around like what you expect from lens whacking.

It reminds me of “the journey” commercial, louis Vuitton, . A good example with similar results. Dreamy look.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jul 07, 2020 3:11 pm

Fabián Aguirre wrote:I also love the fact that I can slap a nice zoom, like a Canon 70-200, to these cameras with a Metabones non-speedboosted adapter, and get nearly twice the reach, with stabilization. Or the lovely Helios 58mm for an ultra dreamy look.


Yes! Nice Images. That Helios 58mm is on my watch list. I've done a lot of wildlife work with the Micro Cinema Camera in the past where a 400mm suddenly gets close to a 1200mm.

John Brawley wrote:Which begs the question...is the sensor operating in 10 bit mode and they're recording that into a 12bit ProRes RAW container or is it now a 12bit sensor camera ?


It's not clear if it is recording 12 bit in ZRAW.

I think the super35 and full frame Zcams are doing a 10 bit hdmi out to ProRes Raw and maybe doing 12 bit internal in ZRAW but limited to 4K with 6K sensors otherwise doing h.265 4:2:0. ProRes HQ options are limited to DCI 4K even though again both are recording h.265 6K. So that could be a turn off right there not having 12 bit at full resolution / sensor size.

I can see more detail / color information as I compare URSA Mini 4.6K to itself from 12 bit to 10 bit in 4444 XQ in 4K and HD. Enough so that I will record with ProRes 4444 XQ if capturing HD. When I looked at the ProRes Raw from the E2-S6 it felt thinner like 10 bit, so I'm inclined to agree with spec sheet saying that the Zcam is doing 10 Bit HDMI out. It could also be the sensor not being as good as the URSA Mini's. I don't see it besting the Pocket 6K either.

Fabián Aguirre wrote:I, too, expect a move to large format in some capacity, likely in the Ursa Mini line or a new product, but I can't imagine they'll abandon APSC any time soon, or ever.


I haven't had a project come up where I would want to rent full frame or specifically Z cam. I'd still like to take a look at the full frame Z cam E2-F6 for myself in ZRAW but again it's limited to 4K 4096 x 2160 in RAW. Is that with a with a cropped sensor? So if you're after high bit depth you're still comparing it to an URSA Mini or Komodo and I think both are priced better for what they are offering. With Blackmagic's history I'm inclined to wait and see if they have a full frame option in the pipeline.

BTW Able Cine put out a really nice talk with William Rexer on YouTube about his work with full frame and Sigma Lenses. I've since been making my way through The Tick, The Hunters, and Sneaky Pete on Amazon.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 10, 2020 3:29 am

Fabián, my favourite is the last shot with the 10.5mm lens. Lovely composition, colour, lines, and especially the falloff of the light from the centre to the sides of the frame. Suitable for a poster.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 10, 2020 5:53 am

Yes, yes it is Rick!
Cheers
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 10, 2020 2:33 pm

I'm intrigued by the ZCam e2-s6 in mft mount. I haven't tried it yet, but it is on my radar. I only use fully manual mft lenses, and all the ones I currently have cover aps-c super35 as they are offered in e-mount versions as well. Also can use full frame lenses with speed booster with full effect.

They still have some maturing to do, especially in raw, but the ProRes looks good, and honestly wouldn't want more than 4k in those data rates anyway, down sampling 6k to 4k looks clean.

I would love to see Blackmagic make a little box camera around the current Sony sensors, Sony f battery on the back, add your own monitor on top, and is there any reason why we can't have both hdmi and sdi? Interchangeable mounts including mft, even if it shouldn't cover the format, I think most users are smart enough to know what they want, especially if custom spec.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 10, 2020 6:39 pm

Fabián Aguirre wrote:I'm a little bit late to the party but, as an owner of a couple BMPCC4Ks, I am always a bit suspicious of the hyperbolic claims some folks make (not here but certainly in a few other threads on this forum) about the impending death of MFT.

I made the switch to MFT from years shooting on the BMPCC, the original pocket and the micro (with speedboosters), and later with the Ursa Mini 4.6K, which l loved to death, even though mine suffered from crippling FPN at anything above 400 ISO. Since then, my kits are lighter, more versatile, and the images I'm getting surpass anything I've ever shot in my short, 12 year career as a documentary cinematographer.

I own all of the Voigtlander Nokton lenses, with the exception of the very latest one-- the 60mm-- which I cannot wait to add to my kit. At less than $1000 for most of the lenses in this series (I bought a couple of them for around $500 used in great condition), there is simply no room to complain. Even if MFT support disappeared from manufacturers overnight, the investment I made in these cheap lenses, by any reasonable comparison, was well worth it as they have already paid for themselves many times over in just a few jobs. Moreover, Blackmagic's hypothetical decision to move away from MFT in the future would not render my two cameras suddenly useless-- I would still be able to produce 4K, HDR, HFR, images in Blackmagic Raw or ProRes, which is better than most full frame mirrorless cameras (and heck, even better than most FS7-type cameras) available in the market today.

I also love the fact that I can slap a nice zoom, like a Canon 70-200, to these cameras with a Metabones non-speedboosted adapter, and get nearly twice the reach, with stabilization. Or the lovely Helios 58mm for an ultra dreamy look.

All of this is to say that I am very excited about the future of BMD, and I can't wait to see what they have planned for this year (or next) in terms of camera developments. I, too, expect a move to large format in some capacity, likely in the Ursa Mini line or a new product, but I can't imagine they'll abandon APSC any time soon, or ever.

More than anything, I hope for better pixels, not more, and a dual gain sensor in the larger cameras (the main reason I moved from Ursa Mini, even though I think that camera makes the best overall image). Finally, I hope for full support of Braw inside FCPX, so I can still do my grade in Resolve but remove one step of the round tripping in my workflow. And sure, an interchangeable mount for future cameras would be spectacular.

Here are a few frames I have captured from various projects in the last year or so:

Image
Shot on the Sirui 50mm (1.33x) anamorphic lens for MFT

Image
Shot on the 17.5mm Voigtlander Nokton

Image
Shot on the Helios 58mm

Image
Shot on the Canon 70-200 f/2.8 with a Metabones non-speedbooster

Image
Shot on the 25mm Voigtlander Nokton

Image
Shot on the 10.5mm Voigtlander Nokton

Very impressive! Kudos.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 10, 2020 11:55 pm

The Z Cams are nice. I quite like the image quality.

Pros:
  • It's just a small box, very easy to rig or use on a gimbal
  • No fan, completely silent
  • Very high frame rates available if you use H.265 instead of ProRes (yeah, yeah, I know "it's bad for post"). It's 10-bit 4:2:0 with a pretty good bitrate. Remember, H.264/H.265 in general can be any quality, from crap to lossless. Here it's implemented rather well.
  • Mine initially had some noise in the darker areas but it disappeared after I ran hot pixel calibration to remove a stuck pixel, looks very clean
  • Updates, they are constantly adding stuff. Expandability seems promising too with all the ports on the camera.
  • Connectivity is excellent (apart from missing SDI output). A one-man-band product shoot in a studio becomes a breeze when you can carry around an iPad Pro with a live feed of the video while you are changing lights or rearranging stuff. The app and web GUI is actually usable and can control pretty much anything in the camera over WiFi/USB-C/Ethernet.
  • Battery life
  • Exchangeable mounts
Cons:
  • Must add external monitor
  • Assist features (focus peaking etc). Don't enable any assist features or LUTs in the camera. Seriously, turn everything off. Assist features add considerable latency to the HDMI output and scopes are shown at a very low frame rate. It's very distracting. LUTs decrease the bit depth of the HDMI output (doesn't affect recordings). The current Z Cam cameras are way behind BMD in this regard.
  • Lack of proper documentation
  • All the software you might need is spread out all over the place. They don't host anything themselves, it's all on Google Drive or similar. In addition to that they don't use code signing, meaning the software isn't validated as coming from them. That's a perfect storm of IT security no-no's, making customers susceptible to hackable software. A lot of information can only be found in the official non-public Facebook group (where the CEO and engineers are very active, that's a plus of course).
  • Timecode requires a funky adapter (this is probably subject to change)
  • ZRAW isn't supported in DaVinci Resolve
  • While the camera can record ProRes, it can't play it back. All playback is performed from the always-on proxy track embedded as a second video track in the ProRes files.
With my Z Cam experience I've really come to appreciate BMD:s approach to documentation (for usage and color science) and software delivery. I bought a Z Cam for the anamorphic abilities that BMD cameras don't have (no 4:3 format sensors).

My point with this post is... I'd love for BMD to release a 4K MFT Micro Cinema Camera, preferably with a 4:3 format sensor (not just a 4:3 crop mode, but a taller sensor). Oh, and NPF batteries.
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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostSat Aug 08, 2020 5:03 am

Check out this video by Gerald Undone, fast forward to 4:30 for an explanation on the advantages of using a Micro Four Thirds Lens.

"...the light is entering in a more perpendicular way, allowing for brighter corners and better off-center resolution than you find on a larger sensor format, especially when shooting at a wide angle focal length. (this is a problem that ARRI has noticed in it's PL mount and it is aggravated by thick OLPF sensor coatings, their response is the new LPL mount (LPL = Large Positive Lock), and a whole new series of lenses) ...The Micro Four Thirds is easier to keep cool than conventional sensors, so you can use higher resolution video with better codecs with longer record times, so you can still keep it under control. ...They offer complex shooting modes, and in-camera transitions and functions that are usually found on higher end cinema cameras. ...options that can't really be found anywhere else given it's size and price range."


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