Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

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Que Thompson

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Jul 16, 2020 10:15 pm

Garth McElroy wrote:This camera to me is really disappointing. In no way do I need 12k or even 8k. I was hoping for 6k with more features at the same price point. I mean, I had no idea 12k even existed! I'm still hopeful they'll release a lower res model at the $6k price point. I'd much rather have pre-roll and some other features than a ridiculous amount of pixels.


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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Jul 16, 2020 10:39 pm

Garth McElroy wrote:This camera to me is really disappointing. In no way do I need 12k or even 8k.


No one really does need 8 or 12K, but you can't deny that it's killer value even if you only use it for 4K acquisition, and Black Magic does know color...

There will probably be other variants in the future. I would not be surprised to see a lower resolution version, or even just one with lower data rates to allow for lower price points.

But 12K for $10K...

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Jul 16, 2020 11:31 pm

Hard pass from me. Managing 12k files would be a nightmare in post. Also, what's rolling shutter going to look like with all those pixels. If you want perfect 4:4:4 rgb 4k you only need 8k. No matter how you cut it, smaller photosites mean less dynamic range. Downsampling - unless pixel binning is used - doesn't get you back the lost latitude. Honestly, a 4k full frame camera with 16 + stops of real dynamic range, little rolling shutter and manageable file sizes would be tempting. Not this camera.
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Dan Olson

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Jul 16, 2020 11:33 pm

Honestly after poking at the sample footage for the afternoon I think buying the 12K to use it explicitly as a 4K or 6K camera is a sensible decision, and the big reason for that is the BRAW files themselves.

They are, I swear, actual black magic.

8K Helium footage is unworkable if you don't have a computer that splits atoms in its spare time. I was grading and editing 12K footage on a 4 year old laptop and the fan didn't even turn on.

I loaded Resolve 16.3 and the sample clips onto my 2016 MacBook Pro, because I wanted to test the claim that you could edit on a laptop, and it was perfectly workable. Not ideal, scrubbing was pretty choppy and that's something that would likely only get worse with longer clips and more footage in the bins, but with minimal buffering I was getting clean 24fps playback. Would I *want* to cut a whole project like that? No, the choppy scrubbing gets annoying pretty fast. Have I cut entire projects under worse conditions? Absolutely. And, like, honestly it wasn't much worse than scrubbing through particularly large h.264 files. Far from ideal, but the fact that it was even manageable in the first place is *wild*.

More than that, the data load at Q0 is competitive with ARRI raw 4K off the Mini LF, actually a bit lighter. You're still talking about a lot of data, but it's not an absurd explosion of the workflow from current 4K pipelines.

Now, maybe that comes with hidden tradeoffs that just aren't apparent with three hand-picked sample shots, but if these are in fact indicative of quality:file-size, it's potentially a killer value for anyone working in ultra-high-def content.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Jul 16, 2020 11:35 pm

I'm surprised that there is disappointment being expressed about using a 12k sensor. I see a 4k or 6k oversampling sensor shooting non cropped RAW without aliasing and being super low noise as exciting. It's about the look. I think that is the killer argument about this new sensor.

I would love to know things like what does 6k or 4k Q5 BRAW look like when pushed to ISO 3200. What does movement look like? Are there rolling shutter issues? I loved my now retired Mini 4.6k but after shooting BRAW with a pocket 4k, I know that BRAW and the BM colour science is the game changer.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Jul 16, 2020 11:40 pm

Dan Shay wrote:Hard pass from me. Managing 12k files would be a nightmare in post. Also, what's rolling shutter going to look like with all those pixels. If you want perfect 4:4:4 rgb 4k you only need 8k. No matter how you cut it, smaller photosites mean less dynamic range. Downsampling - unless pixel binning is used - doesn't get you back the lost latitude. Honestly, a 4k full frame camera with 16 + stops of real dynamic range, little rolling shutter and manageable file sizes would be tempting. Not this camera.


The blackmagic raw files are designed to be light and efficient. In the video, Grant edited a 12K clip on a MacBook Pro. You could scale down to 8K or 4K if that fits your delivery path better.
The quoted RS numbers I’ve heard from John Brawley are around 16ms for 12K and 6ms for 8K. Those are incredible numbers.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 12:12 am

Dan Shay wrote:Hard pass from me. Managing 12k files would be a nightmare in post. Also, what's rolling shutter going to look like with all those pixels. If you want perfect 4:4:4 rgb 4k you only need 8k. No matter how you cut it, smaller photosites mean less dynamic range. Downsampling - unless pixel binning is used - doesn't get you back the lost latitude. Honestly, a 4k full frame camera with 16 + stops of real dynamic range, little rolling shutter and manageable file sizes would be tempting. Not this camera.


The Rs is around 16ms for 12K and around 5ms at 8K.

They are smaller photo sites, but they're not bayer, so there's different rules. 14 stops is still very decent. I think the pictures speak for themselves, there's some high contrast scenes below.

I cut and graded this video on my 2017 laptop by the way....Total amount of footage shot in 14 hours with 4 models and being indiscriminate ? just a sniff over 1 TB.



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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 12:44 am

Dan Shay wrote:Hard pass from me. Managing 12k files would be a nightmare in post.


Then shoot another resolution or shoot at Q5 which gets you bitrates from like 70-180Mbps or something like that.

Dan Shay wrote:Also, what's rolling shutter going to look like with all those pixels.


60fps would need to be less than 16.6ms. That would apply to 12K.
110 fps would need less than 9ms. That would apply to 4K and 8K.
120 fps would need less than 8.33ms. That would apply to Super16 6K.
140 fps would need less than 7.14ms. That would apply to 8K 2.4:1 and 4K 2.4:1.
220 fps would need less than 4.54ms. That would apply to Super16 4K.

All you have to do is take 1000ms and divide it by the max frame-rate and you get what the highest read out time can possibly be.

Dan Shay wrote:If you want perfect 4:4:4 rgb 4k you only need 8k.


True, but that assumes a bayer pattern.

Dan Shay wrote:No matter how you cut it, smaller photosites mean less dynamic range. Downsampling - unless pixel binning is used - doesn't get you back the lost latitude.


How do you figure that? Binning just averages sub-pixels. That is a form of downsampling.

Dan Shay wrote:Honestly, a 4k full frame camera with 16 + stops of real dynamic range, little rolling shutter and manageable file sizes would be tempting.


Except you were wrong about the last two statements so this camera would be higher dynamic range.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 12:48 am

Que Thompson wrote:It didn't exist until today!


Technically it did. People have scanned 35mm at 12K.

Really can't wait for DR 16.3 to get released for Windows so I can check out the sample footage. If I can find any noise in them, I'd be very curious to see how fine it is lol
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 1:16 am

John Brawley wrote:They are smaller photo sites, but they're not bayer, so there's different rules.


6x6 array with half pixels being clear, at 12,288 x 6480 you end up with 2048x1080 of blue pixels before color recovery? The same as if you had an 8k bayer camera.

Seems like this configuration makes the 8k/4k no-crop modes possible and compensates for less sensitivity of the smaller pixel size, but does not increase color information.

Interested to see some green screen footage and how well it would work for vfx.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 1:51 am

I'm using a Fujinon 20-120 lens on my UMP G1. It seems like the 12K camera has a slightly larger sensor area than the G1. Any idea if I'd see vignetting if I used this lens on the 12K?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 1:52 am

Sean Popke wrote:I'm using a Fujinon 20-120 lens on my UMP G1. It seems like the 12K camera has a slightly larger sensor area than the G1. Any idea if I'd see vignetting if I used this lens on the 12K?


It’s slightly wider for 17:9 DCI over the 16:9 of the G1. If the lens covers S35, you should be fine, it’s only a little larger.

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 1:52 am

joe12south wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:
Brad Hurley wrote:Is this RGB sensor foveon X3 style, or pattern colour mask?

Mr. Petty didn't say definitively, but I infer from what he did say, and from the results, that it is still a pattern of individual R, G and B filtered cells...just a lot more of them in equal distribution instead of a bayer pattern.


The Red patent reads that it covers different mosaics I believe. The recording would have to be detached from the pattern. John says it is based on the sensor, well, I hope the sensor is based on component video.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 1:56 am

Mark Grgurev wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:It didn't exist until today!


Technically it did. People have scanned 35mm at 12K.

Really can't wait for DR 16.3 to get released


Yes 16.3 stops of dynamic range would be great. :D
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 2:32 am

I must say it makes me smile, 12k is awesome, sampling all these pixels to produce 4K will yield stunning results. Imagine keying for 4k using a 12k plate! Would love to hear more about how it records 4K from a 12k sensor, will be interested to check out the noise profile. Can't wait to have a play with one but hope its rubbish though, cannot afford to upgrade from my UMP at the moment. Nice work BM.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 2:39 am

Eugenia Loli wrote:The best lenses we have today can resolve 12k, but only at around f/4, which is a little too stopped down for narrative cinematography. Wide open they will be hit by softness and aberrations and at f/8 onwards, with diffraction. That's the problem with huge resolutions and small-ish sensors.

Honestly, I don't think anyone asked for 12k. This is the first big blunder from Blackmagic strategically-wise in my opinion. The price is great, but honestly, no one needs 12k right now. Maybe in 8-10 years from now, but not yet. As for re-framing, the main argument of people who shoot high res, we can do that from 6k already, to deliver 4k or 1080p. What people wanted from Ursa was full frame. Hollywood has moved to full frame sensors, so that was what needed matching. 8k would have been acceptable too (even if 6k is enough), but 12k in a super-35 sensor doesn't sound interesting to me at all, sorry.


Hi Eugenia,

One of the uses for post 8k resolutions, is to preserve the image characteristics of high end lenses according to the old Panavison CTO, but nice for VR too, otherwise people are mainly talking about improved conventional delivery. Leaders can put genuine improvements that have not been asked for. Frankly, I think there is use for it on feature and advertising video walls. You have to get 2k+ up close per 20 inch of wall to present a reasonable image to those walking up to it. So, a lot of extra uses out there that can't be serviced well yet. But, it wouldn't surprise me if it became an unofficial goto camera for those industries, and IMAX, if nothing else is better. It depends a lot on how the colour filtering works.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 2:54 am

Don’t know if it was asked. Too many replies to search trilogy while on phone. But, is the 12K rolling or global shutter? What is the sensor readout speed? This has me curious.


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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 2:56 am

Is there a crop into a the sensor when you go from 12k to other resolution. I know there’s one for when your doing slow motion but what about regular 24fps.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 3:11 am

Aaron Chieply wrote:Is there a crop into a the sensor when you go from 12k to other resolution. I know there’s one for when your doing slow motion but what about regular 24fps.


Using the full sensor you can shoot 12K up to 60fps, 8K and 4K up to 110 fps.
With 2.4:1 sensor crop you can shoot 8K and 4K up to 140fps.
With a Super16 crop, you can shot 6K up to 120fps and 4k up to 220 fps.

timbutt2 wrote:Don’t know if it was asked. Too many replies to search trilogy while on phone. But, is the 12K rolling or global shutter? What is the sensor readout speed? This has me curious.


Pretty much has to be rolling shutter. We don't know the exact readouts but we can infer what the worst case scenario is for each mode using the frame rates they support.

60fps can be 16.6ms at most. That would apply to 12K.
110 fps can be 9ms at most. That would apply to 4K and 8K.
120 fps can be 8.33ms at most. That would apply to Super16 6K.
140 fps can be 7.14ms at most. That would apply to 8K 2.4:1 and 4K 2.4:1.
220 fps can be 4.54ms at most. That would apply to Super16 4K.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 3:22 am

I'll have to review how the colour filter works, but if they could only produce a $2k 12k pocket :)

Anyway, it is my gap theory, any gap in image acquisition has to be made up for, and that's often by calculation, but calculation can still leave deficencies. So, to put it simply, it is like saying their was a civil war and that the civil war finished, it doesn't tell you much about what happened in between. If you sort of average out what it looked like by how society looked before and after, you are not going get good results normally too much. With Bayer, if you just average the missing colour by the surrounding matching primary colour pixels, sometimes it's going be that bad, other times is probably not going be as bad. Now, if you presume a bit of what war looks like, you ussually get a bit more accurate, like in the Bayer situation, sometimes that will help a lot, other times that won't help so much. So, what you do is go to historical records and archeology, and try to build a big and small picture of what happened, to get a fair idea of the big picture and details of everyday life. With Bayer this means you look at everything surrounding to try to get the detail up, often this would help, but the way it's done you are looking at some deficencies, and the way Bayer sensors compensates, with olpf, you get more deficency on the visible colour too, which can be used to try to pry into the missing neighbouring colour. So, hybrid complementary/primary layered colour filtering sensors, like Foveon X3, produce some nicer results in comparison. But saying half the pixels of this one are clear, and there is only one of each 12k primary pixel for each 4k pixel, gets me worried, because there are lots of gaps. Kodak developed the rgbw alternative to Bayer years ago for consumer cameras, to get better low light etc. I haven't seen that widely adopted or replacing Bayer, which indicates to me the question, why? So, is this going be close to flawless at 8k+, or are there going be issues on patterns/details etc? A clear pixel contains all the colour, but we don't know how much of each. In Bayer, you knew one colour for each pixel. So, would 24k render 4k pixels better, and what does that say about 8k?

The foveon X3 should be just about, or, out of patent. It would have been great to see something like that with modern tech to get better low noise, low light and dynamic range on it compared to old foveon sensor tech. A number of technologies will be dropping out of patent, and licensable cheap before hand. So, such a sensor might be releasable next year or two, with minimised licensing. Such would blow things away, and BM could always arrange a test slither on production wafers to test out new pixel ideas. I hope this one is great, it they could make the next one like the X3 in a couple of years. A 4k micro with something like that, makes 8k less desirable. But, it's likely already done and dusted, as they say over here. But, the X3 like clone wars are coming I think.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 3:43 am

If they had released this as a 8K camera and then pumped it up to 12K with a firmware update in 3 months people would have been calling this an ungodly Red killer, Instead most people think it is junk. That is the world we live in.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 4:26 am

timbutt2 wrote:Don’t know if it was asked. Too many replies to search trilogy while on phone. But, is the 12K rolling or global shutter? What is the sensor readout speed? This has me curious.



15ms in 12K and I think 6ms in 8K....

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 4:27 am

Aaron Chieply wrote:Is there a crop into a the sensor when you go from 12k to other resolution. I know there’s one for when your doing slow motion but what about regular 24fps.


Not at all. That's the genius,

12k, 8k or 4K are all RAW, but no crop.

There's a 6K super 16 mode and a 4K super 16 mode which is cropped.

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 4:45 am

lost_soul wrote:If they had released this as a 8K camera and then pumped it up to 12K with a firmware update in 3 months people would have been calling this an ungodly Red killer, Instead most people think it is junk. That is the world we live in.
Yeah... After all the complaining that Black Magic didn't have an 8K offering, the complaints about Black Magic releasing an even higher resolution are pretty comical

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 5:10 am

I've posted read out speeds here for those interested in that kind of thing :

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.ph ... 1986834151

Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K

Full 12K : ~15.5ms
12K 2.4:1 : ~12.3ms
8K/4K (full field of view) : ~8.5ms*
6K crop : ~7.8ms
8K 2.4:1 (full width) : ~6.7ms*
4K crop : ~4.25ms*


*We hope to improve this slightly in an update
Last edited by CaptainHook on Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 6:14 am

CaptainHook wrote:*We hope to improve this slightly in an update


I wasn't even aware that could he done!

Thanks for the timings!

Is analog gain something that could be done in an update, too, or would you rather not comment on that?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 6:28 am

If you do not need 12 or 8 K, it is still a native 4K camera. What you are not getting, is the entirely new RGB “multi” sensor, that eliminates debayering of Bayer type sensors. What ir delivers at each of its resolution settings, is a smooth, film like image, that even a so called “full frame” Bayer sensor can not produce.
Cheers
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 7:12 am

Denny Smith wrote:If you do not need 12 or 8 K, it us still a native 4K camera. What you are not getting, is the entirely new RGB “multi” sensor, that eliminates debayering of Bayer type sensors. What ir delivers at each of its resolution settings, is a smooth, film like image, that even a so called “full frame” Bayer sensor can not produce.
Cheers


Will it be better than the RED Monstro or Alexa LF? If not its just another tech speak. To me smooth is overrated. I would never prefer smooth to smothering of details just to then have more MP to help restore some of those lost details.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 8:06 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
lost_soul wrote:If they had released this as a 8K camera and then pumped it up to 12K with a firmware update in 3 months people would have been calling this an ungodly Red killer, Instead most people think it is junk. That is the world we live in.
Yeah... After all the complaining that Black Magic didn't have an 8K offering, the complaints about Black Magic releasing an even higher resolution are pretty comical

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Maybe you were forgetting that most all complaining was few people about the prospect of it being higher than 6k, some higher than 4.6k. Now there is a chorus of praise because BM did what I said was the future. I can assure you no such thing was happening before.

There is a bar in England on the news. The bar manager put a electric fence around the bar to stop people violating covid 19 distancing, it apparently worked though switched off. The Bar manager said amusingly, that people were like sheep. Praise where praise is due. I'd rather just agree with what's better or best, rather than what anybody else is praising. Now, BM has done a really wonderful job (60 fps at 12k, not the 30 they ussually start at, maybe nice to look at a fast 90fps read out of pov 12k 3+:1 ratio sports field use for post editing and live on studio framing tracking) don't know how the pixel colour filter goes, but I would prefer a cheap 8k camera with 60 fps aswell.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 8:48 am

Wayne Steven wrote:The foveon X3 should be just about, or, out of patent. It would have been great to see something like that with modern tech to get better low noise, low light and dynamic range on it compared to old foveon sensor tech.


From what I gather there are technical limitations which make it difficult to produce a Foveon sensor that performs well at higher ISO settings.

The Sigma Foveon-based cameras can produce great stills when fed with enough light but the video samples I've seen are not worth bothering with.

I agree that if it could be made to work it would be nice, but not expecting anything here in the near future.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 10:11 am

A lot of stuff was on Sony and Red sensors. So Sigma would have access to that low noise low energy high frame rate high high latitude technologies. Even though one of the early foveons could technically maybe handle 720p24 by the basic datarates, there are other technical factors which I didn't have access to the data (frame timing areas, lack of pixel packing, which really dig into the datarate, and heating on old tech, so VGA is the only resolution I know of consumer wise, on some cameras. No modern technology example. Sigma has scrapped it's present design for a new foveon camera, because it didn't turn out, so it's delayed to coming years I think I imagine that the tech looked promising but when put into a prototype it wasn't working as well. They really need to get a certain level in other performance areas compared (hmmm, just had a thought on a new way of layer colour seperation to improve performance, and now another one, now I've forgotten that one, nope, there it is again, a third method which would greatly boost performance in performance and noise) to Sony sensors to compete. You see competitors to Sony are suddenly leaping forwards in the recent year. They must be getting access to the same, or alternative technology. By waiting Sigma could use.

The stuff with low light is insane. When I started to describe intra pixel noise cancellation techniques over at Red, and advocating the new quantum multiplying technology sensor (around 2006 or 2008) which we see now, it was for some use which included filming docos in the dark with homeless people, but you only need enough to get a natural view on a cinema camera, so how your eye would perceived in low light, or meso vision which is the overlap with night vision. So, as long as the sensor can get down to that, it's great as a cinema camera, and still useful as a doco. That's many times less performance than modern Sony leaders. So, I hope that an X3 like sensor can get an image as good as the mini pro, even in half to a quater the light and 16 stops. That would be great at 12k, but even at 4k, that's something great. But, we have to give up on the extreme iso, but that might be possible with monochrome mode or less colour response on X3 technology.

But X3 is not the only vertical colour filtering technology out there. I was once communicating with a Russian manufacturer, but I want very high pixel area fill factors, like Foveon has, and a number of other major manufacturers have their own research projects, like Sony does. I suspect Sony may need it for their 3D filming plans. Canon has actually produced a camera with 5 colour layer technology years back. I read they also have six layer technology. Frankly I wanted 7 layer+, and had plans for hundreds of layers (I've said too much now). But, I have alternative plans for 5 layer+ with full Sony level performance in a lot more doable way. If I could work with somebody I could attempt something 12k-16k. In matter of fact, after I came up with the design, a manufacturer did a similar design the decade before last. Su, lots of options out their gir BM to pursue. But, I do want to find out more about cor filter layout if the new camera. Anybody can take a macro/microscope picture of the sensor colour filter?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 11:01 am

ChristopherSeguine wrote:6x6 array with half pixels being clear, at 12,288 x 6480 you end up with 2048x1080 of blue pixels before color recovery? The same as if you had an 8k bayer camera...


Do we know it’s a “6x6 array with half pixels being clear” as a fact? Can you point me to where this is discussed by BMD? Thanks.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 11:09 am

Sean Popke wrote:I'm using a Fujinon 20-120 lens on my UMP G1. It seems like the 12K camera has a slightly larger sensor area than the G1. Any idea if I'd see vignetting if I used this lens on the 12K?
The image circle needs to accommodate a sensor diagonal of 30.6mm for open gate 17:9. The 16:9 window has a diagonal of 29.12mm.

As John said most Super 35 lenses likely have enough coverage.

The notable exception might be the Sigma lenses that have a published image circle of 28.4mm and already warn of vignetting on the URSA Mini 4.6K sensor with a diagonal of 29.08mm. Many folks have no issue though currently; it remains to be seen if the 1.5mm larger diagonal on the 12K sensor will vignette.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 1:46 pm

To compare the 12K and the 4.6K Gen 2...

It looks like the 4.6K can window to 3K Anamorphic, 2K, 2K DCI and HD, where the 12K can only window down to 4K at a minimum.

For frame rates, the 12K can shoot 4K full sensor at 110fps and windowed at 220fps, where the 4.6K tops out at 80fps full sensor, but when windowed can do 150fps at UHD and 300fps at HD.

So it looks like if you want anything smaller than 4K, you need the 4.6K—which also gives you 80 more fps for high speed (granted at only HD size). I wonder why there's no smaller crop with higher fps on the 12K? At least at 4K sizes, the 12K can shoot 220fps where the 4.6K tops at 150fps.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 2:00 pm

I find the amount of complaining and bellyaching on this thread most amusing.

We live in a time where you can shoot an outstanding feature or short film, edit, color correct, score and deliver it on our home computer for a fraction of the cost of a camera body of 20 years ago, and yet people are still unhappy because a new camera doesn't exactly meet their personal requirements.

Can no one adapt anymore?

Glad I have nothing to do with retail or support for and to the general public in this day and age.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 2:12 pm

Frank_Wylie wrote:We live in a time where you can shoot an outstanding feature or short film, edit, color correct, score and deliver it on our home computer for a fraction of the cost of a camera body of 20 years ago, and yet people are still unhappy because a new camera doesn't exactly meet their personal requirements.


It's still priced to own for independent users. It reminds me of the presentation that Marco Solario did in NYC at the 2015 event where he ran the numbers with just a 50mm EF ($100 50mm 1.8) lens. "Why rent Alexa or RED when you can own an Ursa Mini and shoot whenever you want." That really hooked me.

It should be very accessible for smaller rental budgets. Now there are some cheaper PL options to buy, but renting PL has never been better.

John Brawley wrote:Not at all. That's the genius,

12k, 8k or 4K are all RAW, but no crop.

There's a 6K super 16 mode and a 4K super 16 mode which is cropped.


The sensor seems like another huge leap forward. It's all pretty stunning really. Great work on the images too.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 2:19 pm

People are funny.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 2:28 pm

Mark Grgurev wrote:

Dan Shay wrote:If you want perfect 4:4:4 rgb 4k you only need 8k.


True, but that assumes a bayer pattern.

Dan Shay wrote:No matter how you cut it, smaller photosites mean less dynamic range. Downsampling - unless pixel binning is used - doesn't get you back the lost latitude.


How do you figure that? Binning just averages sub-pixels. That is a form of downsampling.

Dan Shay wrote:Honestly, a 4k full frame camera with 16 + stops of real dynamic range, little rolling shutter and manageable file sizes would be tempting.


Except you were wrong about the last two statements so this camera would be higher dynamic range.


Binning 4 photosites to read as one gains 2 stops of signal to noise ratio(i.e going from 8k to 4k). Binning occurs before A/D conversion, then the combined signal goes through the A/D conversion process. Downsampling occurs post a/d conversion averaging pixel data. Downsampling 8k to 4k just reduces the size of the noise, but gives a perceptible gain of about a half stop. Sampling Red, Green and Blue equally still has to interpolate 2/3 color data to create a pixel for each photosite, its just that the ratio has shifted from twice as much green as blue and red. Now what is the actual structure of the photosites? Is there a clear photosite with each red, green and blue photosite? If there is no clear photosite, then you just need 3 photosites to form a true rgb pixel, i.e. needing less than 8k to form 4:4:4 true rgb 4k.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 2:45 pm

CaptainHook wrote:I've posted read out speeds here for those interested in that kind of thing :

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.ph ... 1986834151

Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K

Full 12K : ~15.5ms
8K/4K (full field of view) : ~8.5ms*
6K crop : ~7.8ms
4K crop : ~4.25ms*


*We hope to improve this slightly in an update

Thank you Captain Hook for answering. Also, saw John Brawely answered, so thank you!

Impressive. I'm very excited to see where all of this leads.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 3:36 pm

Are the details available for the BRAW compression settings on the (3) sample clips? Could you point me to them if they've already been discussed? I am getting smooth 24 fps playback on a 2015 27" iMac in the timeline and color tab. (4K timeline, not 12k)

Again, clips look stunning in 5K on the iMac.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 3:45 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:Are the details available for the BRAW compression settings on the (3) sample clips? Could you point me to them if they've already been discussed? I am getting smooth 24 fps playback on a 2015 27" iMac in the timeline and color tab. (4K timeline, not 12k)

Again, clips look stunning in 5K on the iMac.
They're 8:1 I believe. Look where you downloaded them again.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 4:01 pm

At 8K, the RS is at the level of the Micro Studio Camera, and the smaller resolutions are even faster.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 4:07 pm

John Brawley wrote:THIS is the real reason BMD went away from cDNG. You can’t do this with cDNG. Or even ProRes.


I noticed that the Ursa Mini Pro 12K only has the option to record BRAW, no ProRes, and now I understand why.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 4:15 pm

Yes, and the new sensor was designed to work with BRaw. With all the new improvements in BRaw, with more to come, why shoot ProRes, except to hand the footage off. You can take the BRaw files and render them to ProRes output/resolutions. ProRes caps out at 8K also.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 4:20 pm

There's an overwhelming pour of support for the 12K UMP here... glad that is the case. The new sensor is nice, yet proprietary. Wasn't that not just too long ago that having a proprietary technology was frown by BMD?
Anyway, this is also a hard pass for me. If there's 16+/18+ of DR, global shutter, FF for a 5K or 6K UMP at a lower price point, that would have been interesting and a definite consideration. If I was going to spend on the same amount of money, I will sell my C200 and get a C300 Mk III - which has Dual Gain Output (DGO) Sensor capable of over 16 stops of dynamic range and Dual Pixel Autofocus which all BMD cameras do not have to date. The K's are irrelevant and getting a 12 to deliver glorious 4K is a joke, especially for cinema work. Once converted to 2K DCP for theatrical delivery, only the handful of pixel peepers would care - and ask me if I care what the peepers say.

Also wrong timing for a new high end and priced high camera. The disease known as COVID-19, has devastated swaths of the entertainment industry: Movie theaters are ruined; big-budget films are being pushed back to next year, who knows. For broadcast, nobody knows when sports, concerts and theater can resume en masse to be recorded with glorious 4,6,8, and worse 12K; and new film and TV productions are on hold for the foreseeable future. Netflix shares were down 6% recently although they are the only one profiting over other "high-end" production and distribution co. So I doubt companies are breaking the bank to buy new equipment - probably staying with what they already have in a wait and see manner. If BMD doesn't get an ROI in sales within the next 18-24 months, 12 of these months will already be a struggle making new sales due to the pandemic, it's going to be another big URSA disaster for them. Yes, the message right now is so hyped and good for BMD to be in the forefront. If I were Grant, I would rather focus on sustainability over leading edge. BMD customers who find themselves looking for solutions that's in the sub 10K and do not want to deal with 12K and new and still unbeknown sensor will be walking away and going towards RED Komodo, Canon, or Sony which has a more proven record of delivering their content, or even the P4K, 6K, or UMP 4.6K as long as BMD does put in more effort to support them. The problem with BMD is that they tend to leave "old" product behind and focus on their "new" product - which is bad for existing and loyal customers, hence brand as well.
For me, I have several projects for the next 18 months, all lined up for shoot using my BMD UMP 4.6K G2 and Pocket, and also some will be using rented RED Komodo. So I'm not looking for anything else or anything new. Bottom line, all these kudos and hype still has to be proven and seen. Let's see how they do 18 months from now with this new camera. Good luck BMD.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 4:32 pm

I don't think it will be a disaster because it's a proprietary sensor.

According to JB, they've been working on it the pass 3 years. They will probably use it in any new camera they make.

Although that may mean no new M43 cameras... But who knows, maybe this thing that output the M43 size as well.

JB also said they shot for 14 hours and used just over 1TB at 12K.

Stop thinking about the "camera". The camera is just a shell around the SENSOR.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 4:32 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:There's an overwhelming pour of support for the 12K UMP here... glad that is the case. The new sensor is nice, yet proprietary. Wasn't that not just too long ago that having a proprietary technology was frown by BMD?
Anyway, this is also a hard pass for me. If there's 16+/18+ of DR, global shutter, FF for a 5K or 6K UMP at a lower price point, that would have been interesting and a definite consideration. If I was going to spend on the same amount of money, I will sell my C200 and get a C300 Mk III - which has Dual Gain Output (DGO) Sensor capable of over 16 stops of dynamic range and Dual Pixel Autofocus which all BMD cameras do not have to date. The K's are irrelevant and getting a 12 to deliver glorious 4K is a joke, especially for cinema work. Once converted to 2K DCP for theatrical delivery, only the handful of pixel peepers would care - and ask me if I care what the peepers say.

Also wrong timing for a new high end and priced high camera. The disease known as COVID-19, has devastated swaths of the entertainment industry: Movie theaters are ruined; big-budget films are being pushed back to next year, who knows. For broadcast, nobody knows when sports, concerts and theater can resume en masse to be recorded with glorious 4,6,8, and worse 12K; and new film and TV productions are on hold for the foreseeable future. Netflix shares were down 6% recently although they are the only one profiting over other "high-end" production and distribution co. So I doubt companies are breaking the bank to buy new equipment - probably staying with what they already have in a wait and see manner. If BMD doesn't get an ROI in sales within the next 18-24 months, 12 of these months will already be a struggle making new sales due to the pandemic, it's going to be another big URSA disaster for them. Yes, the message right now is so hyped and good for BMD to be in the forefront. If I were Grant, I would rather focus on sustainability over leading edge. BMD customers who find themselves looking for solutions that's in the sub 10K and do not want to deal with 12K and new and still unbeknown sensor will be walking away and going towards RED Komodo, Canon, or Sony which has a more proven record of delivering their content, or even the P4K, 6K, or UMP 4.6K as long as BMD does put in more effort to support them. The problem with BMD is that they tend to leave "old" product behind and focus on their "new" product - which is bad for existing and loyal customers, hence brand as well.
For me, I have several projects for the next 18 months, all lined up for shoot using my BMD UMP 4.6K G2 and Pocket, and also some will be using rented RED Komodo. So I'm not looking for anything else or anything new. Bottom line, all these kudos and hype still has to be proven and seen. Let's see how they do 18 months from now with this new camera. Good luck BMD.


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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 4:35 pm

Que Thompson wrote:
Stop thinking about the "camera". The camera is just a shell around the SENSOR.

Wrong. The camera is the package. The sensor is just one piece of the "buy" decision factor.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 4:39 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:
Stop thinking about the "camera". The camera is just a shell around the SENSOR.

Wrong. The camera is the package. The sensor is just one piece of the "buy" decision factor.


100% incorrect in this case. The Ursa Mini Pro was just a vessel to present this new technology.

As I said, BM could have dragged out the 12K "functionality" 3-5 years and just limited the sensor to 6K (through software) in yesterday's release. Would that have made you happier? Unleashed 8K at the end of next year? Then released 12K in 2024?

Edit:
If it was Sony... They would have made you pay for it through firmware updates. 6K yesterday... 8K next year for $2500... and 12K in 2024 for another $5,000. You want 110fps at 8K? That's another $1,000.
Everyone would have said how forward thinking they were.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 17, 2020 5:06 pm

Que Thompson wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:
Stop thinking about the "camera". The camera is just a shell around the SENSOR.

Wrong. The camera is the package. The sensor is just one piece of the "buy" decision factor.


100% incorrect in this case. The Ursa Mini Pro was just a vessel to present this new technology.

As I said, BM could have dragged out the 12K "functionality" 3-5 years and just limited the sensor to 6K (through software) in yesterday's release. Would that have made you happier? Unleashed 8K at the end of next year? Then released 12K in 2024?

Edit:
If it was Sony... They would have made you pay for it. 6K yesterday... 8K next year for $2500... and 12K in 2024 for another $5,000. Everyone would have said how forward thinking they were.

You're missing the point. You're eating Grant's dog food and you're gaga over it. I'm not. I'm looking at the prism of what makes good business sense for me irrelevant of the vendor - this camera is not, at least not until it can be visibly seen there is consumer demand for images that needs the Ks. Doesn't matter if, for example, you can shoot 12K to get a superb 4K because of a new sensor. A superb 4K image is just a 4K image. Right now, that's so irrelevant. As I said, you can have as much Ks as you want but it boils down to what gets projected on the screen - a 2K DCP package unnoticeable to the viewership, or a 4K UHD at best streamed via Netflix or YouTube to your TV set that, for 90% of the viewing public, is 1080p right now.
I rather see the engineering effort put on functionality that improved usability and productivity of the UMP 4.6K G2, stable products, well speaking for myself. New toys are just toys to me until there is payback - unless you're a hobbyist.
The Color Science Gen 5 in Resolve, that has value. Great job BMD on this.

BTW, I have nothing against a new 12K camera. I just wished that BMD does better in supporting older gen cameras while putting time on their new ones. Today, their customers do not have their new products [yet], they however need enhancements to their existing investment. They have to do both and not expect people to jump to a new ship each time. Plan obsolescent is futile to their image if this keeps on going - and that is true for any manufacturer. Think about this - the Pocket 6K is less than a year out yet it feels like its obsolete - true for the 4K and the UMP G2 as well. And what about those who still are using their G1? Yes, camera evolve and new products are necessary. Quality, support, and service is however paramount to succeed.
Last edited by Ellory Yu on Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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