Audio Bits

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Jim Simon

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Audio Bits

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 3:53 pm

I'd like to see higher bitrates and bit depths available for AAC audio in the MP4 exports. For example, I'd like to use 320 Kb/s at 24 bit depth.

I'd also like 24 and maybe even 32 bit float available for AVI files. (We're currently limited to 16 bit audio for .avi files.)
Last edited by Jim Simon on Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tristanbay

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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Aug 29, 2019 9:50 pm

+1
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mwalker1000

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Re: Audio Bits

PostSun Sep 01, 2019 6:17 am

+1 !!!
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Dante Stiller

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Re: Audio Bits

PostSat Feb 29, 2020 5:25 pm

+ 1
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tristanbay

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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Mar 05, 2020 8:23 am

WORKAROUND: Export your video as .mov with audio as a linear PCM instead of AAC (there's a section to change that in the audio export settings tab when .mov is selected (.mp4 only has AAC audio codec)). Then convert it into .mp4 using HandBrake, MeGUI, etc. with the audio set to a higher bit rate than 192kbps and maybe a different codec than AAC, because it doesn't sound that great even at 320kbps for some reason when I export from HandBrake
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Mar 05, 2020 2:24 pm

Bit depth isn't applicable to AAC. It's a bit strange that they show it as 16 bit in the render settings but I suppose it could mean that's what they use as input for the encoder. Once it's encoded the bit depth is variable per sample. In that sense you can't create a 24-bit AAC file and have it identified as such afterwards (except for with metadata declaring what it was before encoding).

That begs the question, why would it be downsampled prior to encoding in Resolve? I don't think there's any reasonable use case for that unless that's how the reference encoder is built.

When inspecting an mp4 file containing AAC audio, Resolve will claim it's 16-bit but I suspect that's just a default value they're outputting. MediaInfo won't show any bit depth info at all which seems more reasonable.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostTue May 19, 2020 10:07 am

tristanbay wrote:WORKAROUND: Export your video as .mov with audio as a linear PCM instead of AAC (there's a section to change that in the audio export settings tab when .mov is selected (.mp4 only has AAC audio codec)). Then convert it into .mp4 using HandBrake, MeGUI, etc. with the audio set to a higher bit rate than 192kbps and maybe a different codec than AAC, because it doesn't sound that great even at 320kbps for some reason when I export from HandBrake


That's not a workaround but a needless waste of time.

I can't understand the problem with increasing the Data Rate for audio - this "windows bug" seems only to apply when rendering a mixdown. By selecting single audio tracks, there is no cap on data rate.
Any official statement here?
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Iliya Gitlin

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Re: Audio Bits

PostTue Aug 25, 2020 3:57 pm

Yes, i try set higher bitrate for aac on win and mac, but i can set more than 192 for 2.0 and less than 576 for 5.1 timeline track out audio.

BM, it's a bug? how we can render audio aac with any bitrate from mixer?
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Jim Simon

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Re: Audio Bits

PostMon Dec 07, 2020 5:50 pm

I see that PCM audio is now an option for MP4 files with the YouTube presets in 17 beta.

I'd love to have PCM audio as an option for MP4 even outside of that preset. (And give me 24 bit while you're at it please. :) )
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Audio Bits

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 8:15 pm

schmax wrote:I can't understand the problem with increasing the Data Rate for audio - this "windows bug" seems only to apply when rendering a mixdown. By selecting single audio tracks, there is no cap on data rate.
Any official statement here?


Resolve most likely uses AAC encoder provided by Windows, which is probably limited to 192Kb/s.
Nothing BM can do about it unless they provide native AAC encoder which would add costs due to licensing fees. AAC is only free as distribution format.

This may actually prove it:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... ac-encoder

"The following values are supported:
12000
16000
20000
24000
The default value for both mono and stereo is 12000 (96 Kbps)."

24KB is 192Kb/sec.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Audio Bits

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 11:26 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:encoder provided by Windows

I'd still love for BMD to develop a paid "codec pack" for Resolve which would bring parity across platforms such as ProRes on Windows (in the non-buggy MXF format), AAC on Linux, and would even include a commercial license for x264 and x265 (with full GUI access to the parameters).
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Re: Audio Bits

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 10:48 am

Some of those are coming from Mainconcept.
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Ale_Zakko

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Re: Audio Bits

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 1:56 pm

Jim Simon wrote:I see that PCM audio is now an option for MP4 files with the YouTube presets in 17 beta.

I'd love to have PCM audio as an option for MP4 even outside of that preset. (And give me 24 bit while you're at it please. :) )



mmmm no... if you use mp4 content you can't use PCM. only AAC..
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Re: Audio Bits

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 3:15 pm

You can, it's just not defined in the MP4 spec. Many tools support it anyway.
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Ale_Zakko

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Re: Audio Bits

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 10:45 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:You can, it's just not defined in the MP4 spec. Many tools support it anyway.

How you can flag it in mp4 format?
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Re: Audio Bits

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 11:19 pm

What do you mean by flag?
Look at existing files. Some cameras (eg. Sony) use pcm inside MP4 violating actual standard :D
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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Feb 25, 2021 12:21 am

I just use the Quicktime format setting and not the YT presets. I can then render and upload videos with 24bit PCM audio tracks which YouTube has no problem with.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Feb 25, 2021 7:25 am

Charles Bennett wrote:I just use the Quicktime format setting and not the YT presets. I can then render and upload videos with 24bit PCM audio tracks which YouTube has no problem with.


Anyway I found on my workflow a bug: my intro music has got very high frequency... If you select first a YouTube preset export and then to change to custom, every time you select aac audio codec, the file output, has got a high cut frequency like low bit rate encoding (that's why I reported this as bug). BUT, if you select first a different preset, like protools, and the change to custom, using same value as YouTube request, with aac codec, all my output audio it's perfect... I found this workaround, with a custom saved preset for my classic HD output, and now it works well...
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Re: Audio Bits

PostSun Sep 05, 2021 3:57 am

Resolve most likely uses AAC encoder provided by Windows, which is probably limited to 192Kb/s.
Nothing BM can do about it unless they provide native AAC encoder which would add costs due to licensing fees. AAC is only free as distribution format.

They could surely just use ffmpegs native AAC encoder?
Charles Bennett wrote:I just use the Quicktime format setting and not the YT presets. I can then render and upload videos with 24bit PCM audio tracks which YouTube has no problem with.

This reduces upload speed by a considerable amount, and storage space used to keep the files. Not a solution.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Audio Bits

PostSun Sep 05, 2021 9:13 am

Rainie wrote:
Resolve most likely uses AAC encoder provided by Windows, which is probably limited to 192Kb/s.
Nothing BM can do about it unless they provide native AAC encoder which would add costs due to licensing fees. AAC is only free as distribution format.

They could surely just use ffmpegs native AAC encoder?


No they can't. AAC is not free and you can't just use ffmpeg without paying licensing fees.
BM uses Windows (and OSX abilities) to avoid paying licensing fees (MS already pays them). There are many limitations like this in Resolve and all are mainly related to licensing costs. If you want free or very low price Resolve then you will have those limitations.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostSun Sep 05, 2021 3:34 pm

+1

And there are other open source formats like Opus that could be used if there is licensing limitation with AAC (I'm assuming)
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Re: Audio Bits

PostSun Sep 12, 2021 9:32 am

On macOS, for MP4 -> AAC we have bit depth options of 16, 24 and 32. If Windows does not have these options, this suggests that the options are provided by the OS encoder. Therefore, it's possible that the Windows encoder does not have the necessary option, in which case there's nothing BMD can do about that besides using a different encoder.

I did some research which I believe confirms this. Here's the documentation for the Windows AAC Encoder.
The Microsoft Media Foundation AAC encoder is a Media Foundation Transform that encodes Advanced Audio Coding (AAC) Low Complexity (LC) profile, as defined by ISO/IEC 13818-7 (MPEG-2 Audio Part 7) .
It only supports 16bit PCM as input:
Image

I guess in the Quicktime case a different encoder must be used. That does raise the question of: why are different encoders used, and couldn't the encoder that's used for Quicktime also be used for MP4? Especially as in both cases it's ffmpeg's LibAV that writes the container. Perhaps there's some technical or legal reason for this use of two different encoders, but on the surface it does seem a bit odd.

In general, I was rather confused why Windows was limited to 16bit, and why on macOS you have to choose between 16 vs 24 vs 32. AAC, like MP3, has a variable bit depth that changes from sample to sample. I think it's usually regarded as being 32-bit float?

So logically you would think one should just pass in the source audio - at its native bit depth. With ffmpeg you'd certainly do that, and it would use whatever source audio you had to create the AAC.

But as we see from the Windows AAC docs, it seems these OS encoders require PCM input of a fixed bit depth, so there's an unfortunate but necessary conversion step first. I couldn't quickly find docs for the macOS equivalent

I tested on macOS, doing three test renders where I rendered out a video with WAV dialogue track to MP4 H264 AAC with the AAC export bit depth set to:
- 16-bit
- 24-bit
- 32-bit

My source audio in Resolve for these exports was 24bit PCM.

I then imported these exports into Reaper and inverted the phase of the 24-bit version. I then did two test renders: 16 + 24bit (inverted phase), and 24bit (inverted phase) + 32bit.

The second render was a 100% null; there was no difference between 24bit and 32bit renders.

But the 16bit and 24bit test did show some minor differences between those two outputs.

This implies that choosing 16bit when the source audio is 24 will involve a conversion down to 16bit which can lose data. I assume choosing 24bit when source audio is 32bit would do likewise.

Therefore if in future I use MP4 with AAC I will always be choosing 32bit as the source option. If my audio is lower bit depth (24 or 16), it will make no difference to the output. But it ensures I don't accidentally select 16 when my audio is actually 24, or select 24 if my audio is 32bit.

For Windows users I would recommend always using the Quicktime output, then remuxing to MP4 using ffmpeg or Shutter Encoder.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Audio Bits

PostSun Sep 12, 2021 2:05 pm

TheBloke wrote: there's nothing BMD can do about that besides using a different encoder.
An idea I posted earlier in the thread. A separate Codec Pack option, for a fee to cover necessary licensing, that will bring parity across platforms. Not only higher bitrates and depths to AAC on Windows, but also ProRes (MXF) encoding on Windows, AAC audio on Linux...whatever is missing on a platform could be included in the Codec Pack.

Even a commercial license of x264 with GUI access to all parameters. :D
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Re: Audio Bits

PostSat Sep 18, 2021 6:21 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Rainie wrote:
Resolve most likely uses AAC encoder provided by Windows, which is probably limited to 192Kb/s.
Nothing BM can do about it unless they provide native AAC encoder which would add costs due to licensing fees. AAC is only free as distribution format.

They could surely just use ffmpegs native AAC encoder?


No they can't. AAC is not free and you can't just use ffmpeg without paying licensing fees.
BM uses Windows (and OSX abilities) to avoid paying licensing fees (MS already pays them). There are many limitations like this in Resolve and all are mainly related to licensing costs. If you want free or very low price Resolve then you will have those limitations.

Then they could just give an advanced option to allow users to use their own ffmpeg install and pipe out a command to it rather than include it.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostSat Sep 18, 2021 9:49 am

They don’t want to do it as it’s ‘upsetting’ those with patent shares.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostMon Aug 15, 2022 3:39 pm

+1

192 is too low. Recommended for YouTube is 384 for stereo, it would be cool to have at least the 320 option.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostWed Oct 19, 2022 2:13 pm

+1
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Re: Audio Bits

PostWed Oct 19, 2022 6:45 pm

I just render to .mov with PCM audio and upload that to YT. No need for any messing about.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Oct 27, 2022 3:56 pm

Don't like QuickTime. Want it to disappear from Earth.

Still want higher bitrates for MP4.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 9:42 pm

Version 18.1 was just released. Not all Feature Requests can be done at once, and this one didn't make the cut.

So here it is for continued voting.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Dec 08, 2022 2:00 pm

+1
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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Dec 29, 2022 4:59 am

I would definitely appreciate this greatly.

Resolve is such a great program in so many ways, but it would be nice if it had its' own audio encoder.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Feb 09, 2023 11:55 pm

+1

Definitely long overdue. Suprised it's a thing lol...
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Re: Audio Bits

PostFri Feb 10, 2023 12:20 am

+1
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Re: Audio Bits

PostWed Mar 22, 2023 6:12 pm

+1!!! It's so annoying as the "warbley" artifacts are horrendous :( Would love to post the clips to social media but the effect is very prevelant even from smart phone speakers...
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Re: Audio Bits

PostWed Mar 22, 2023 7:45 pm

Charles Bennett wrote:I just render to .mov with PCM audio and upload that to YT. No need for any messing about.


PCM is now officially supported in MP4, so all apps should be updated to allow for it.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostWed Mar 22, 2023 8:27 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:PCM is now officially supported in MP4
I wouldn't mind having that option in Resolve.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostMon Apr 10, 2023 4:42 am

+1
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Re: Audio Bits

PostTue Apr 11, 2023 9:51 am

+2
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Re: Audio Bits

PostWed May 03, 2023 9:40 pm

+3
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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu May 04, 2023 7:23 pm

+4

I've joined the forum just to comment here.

This has been an issue forever. I understand the costs of licensing and them not wanting to pay it. But at least for DaVinci Studio version it should be there. We should be able to export ACC at a higher bitrate.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu May 04, 2023 7:46 pm

They released the update today! (saw it literally 10 secs after commenting that I've created an account just to ask for this feature)


"Release of DaVinci Resolve Studio 18.5 Public Beta 2
PostThu May 04, 2023 5:04 am

We are pleased to announce the release of DaVinci Resolve Studio 18.5 Public Beta 2. This release is available at no charge for existing customers from our support web site.

Documentation
Please review the readme in the installer for specific OS and hardware requirements.

What's new in DaVinci Resolve 18.5 b2

• Ability to perform hardware accelerated AV1 encode on AMD systems on DaVinci Resolve.
• Improved bitrate and quality when encoding AAC audio in Windows 11."
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Jim Simon

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Re: Audio Bits

PostSat May 06, 2023 3:06 pm

This one did get done...sort of.

It's only available on Windows 11.

Would be nice to have it for ALL versions.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostMon May 08, 2023 2:59 am

Jim Simon wrote:It's only available on Windows 11.


I at least see the option on Windows 10; haven't tried it though.

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Re: Audio Bits

PostMon May 08, 2023 9:37 pm

Yeah, we can change the setting.

But it still comes out as 192. :(
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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu May 18, 2023 1:04 pm

Interestingly I'm seeing the same thing happen in both Reaper and CLI FFMPEG when I set my AAC bitrate to 320k, it still comes out as 192k. Might be some internal cap in the AAC implementation of the codec used...

Edit: used an FFMPEG built with the Fraunhofer libfdk_aac and 320k works all right now
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Re: Audio Bits

PostSun May 21, 2023 6:43 pm

atmosfar wrote:Interestingly I'm seeing the same thing happen in both Reaper and CLI FFMPEG when I set my AAC bitrate to 320k, it still comes out as 192k. Might be some internal cap in the AAC implementation of the codec used...

Edit: used an FFMPEG built with the Fraunhofer libfdk_aac and 320k works all right now

Someone from BMD responded about it in another thread and said that it's limited with Windows 10, which doesn't make sense to me. It can't be a technical limitation.
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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Aug 31, 2023 11:55 am

Please implement AAC 320 (and higher) for the Windows versions as well! Even if 320 is set the maximum bitrate is only 256. :?
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Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Aug 31, 2023 4:21 pm

I forgot about it, since I only use FFMPEG to get better h264/265 file (size/quality) from DNxHR render.

I'm curious, why is Davinci Resolve using the Windows API if it gives inferior results? And fragments their own software.

Fragmentation in software is the worst thing. And I really think that attaching the features of a software to the OS capabilities is a very bad choice. Especially when it's Microsoft.

- DVR Windows 10 can't do this
- DVR Windows 11 can do that
- DVR Linux be like "first time"?

I get the Linux part, between the proprietary codecs, or different philosophy of some of the distributions, and the modularity (which is a good thing).

But either way, the Deliver page should show 320 kb/s for Windows 10 users if it's not capable of outputting 320 kb/s AAC.

It's like the dev just coded something like : if "Windows" = 320.

And when we use 192 kb/s, it should be 192 kb/s. It's always lower when we check the metadata of the rendered video file.

God I love Resolve but man, sometimes I don't get it. Super software with amazing tools, used by millions, big studios... and output trash audio :cry:

There is one positive thing about all of this.
It motivates other devs to code amazing open source softwares, like ffmepg, handbrake, etc.
Windows 10
18.6.6
nVidia 3090 - 537.42
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Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 9209
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: Audio Bits

PostThu Aug 31, 2023 8:38 pm

Why?
Because of $. AAC encoding is not free and by using what Windows provides you don't pay anything as MS already did.
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