12K in the hands of customers

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jallen0

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostSun Oct 25, 2020 3:02 pm

To me this video from Japan is certainly the huge field of vision but it looks soft to me. I like the color science but the softness and exposure issues look wrong. Is it the camera settings or the lens?

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Jae Christensen

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostSun Oct 25, 2020 8:20 pm

Hello and Happy Sunday. Here is a short clip I shot with the UMP 12k yesterday. This is my first fashion-esque shoot so its a little rough. Also have two links for some downloadable footage for you all to mess around with in the pinned comments. P.S. Can anyone change my username to my real name? I messaged Mr. Tony, is he still the person to ask?

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostMon Oct 26, 2020 1:51 pm

jsfilmz wrote:Hello and Happy Sunday. Here is a short clip I shot with the UMP 12k yesterday. This is my first fashion-esque shoot so its a little rough. Also have two links for some downloadable footage for you all to mess around with in the pinned comments. P.S. Can anyone change my username to my real name? I messaged Mr. Tony, is he still the person to ask?



Nice job Jae, thanks for posting this with downloadable clips! There's definitely a crisp organic look to the skin and features in the details watching it on YouTube. Looking forward to seeing what the samples look like in Resolve.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostMon Oct 26, 2020 2:49 pm

Why isn't anybody noticing a steep move to grey and white in the colours?

It must be the braw decoding mechanism. Is it a bug?
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Jae Christensen

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostMon Oct 26, 2020 4:16 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:
jsfilmz wrote:Hello and Happy Sunday. Here is a short clip I shot with the UMP 12k yesterday. This is my first fashion-esque shoot so its a little rough. Also have two links for some downloadable footage for you all to mess around with in the pinned comments. P.S. Can anyone change my username to my real name? I messaged Mr. Tony, is he still the person to ask?



Nice job Jae, thanks for posting this with downloadable clips! There's definitely a crisp organic look to the skin and features in the details watching it on YouTube. Looking forward to seeing what the samples look like in Resolve.


You are more than welcome. Im currently testing the camera against my alexa and i really like where bmd is going. I dont want to spam the forum with my videos so just check it out on my youtube if you want
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostTue Oct 27, 2020 4:17 am

Jae, it's probably what this thread is meant for.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostTue Oct 27, 2020 5:13 am

Took the download and brought it in Resolve. It looks nice. We've at least gotten that the Sigmas do work on the 12K perfectly fine. I've detected nothing truly distracting like ELM has complained about. I'm curious if your camera has the "ghost" recording that ELM complained about?

The more footage I see the more I like the camera. I've seen a few more elsewhere, but won't search it out and post at this hour. YouTube's algorithm has suggested the videos and I've watched.

I've been dreaming of the future of Blackmagic's ecosystem and really can't wait to see what they add to DaVinci Resolve 17. This sensor opens up a lot of possibilities. But I do have to say where are the 8K Projectors? I saw my first 4K Projector demo a decade ago. I haven't seen one hint of an 8K Projector.

Does this bold worse for theaters if 8K TVs hit homes before 8K projectors can be put in place in theaters? Now especially that they are hurting financially?
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Tim Schumann

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostTue Oct 27, 2020 9:57 am

Tim the 'ghost recording' bug that you mentioned is specific to Canon CN-E prime EF lenses and we have a fix coming in the next cameras update that is coming for URSA Mini Pro 12K.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostTue Oct 27, 2020 3:10 pm

I am not seing what others are having issues with so far. Although I am having a slight issue with HFR. When I try to press record after playing back an HFR clip, i get a black screen. I can see the audio meters working but the screen is just black. I fix the issue by power cycling the camera and the image comes back again.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostTue Oct 27, 2020 3:26 pm

Tim Schumann wrote:Tim the 'ghost recording' bug that you mentioned is specific to Canon CN-E prime EF lenses and we have a fix coming in the next cameras update that is coming for URSA Mini Pro 12K.

Okay, good to know. Considering my plan will be to use PL exclusively (if and when I update) that issue won't effect me. And, when I get a 12K that bug won't exist. Again, if and when is based on if this version or the next. But the when is going to be based on when I decide it's time and which model is out.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostWed Oct 28, 2020 6:19 pm

What is the lens mount flange depth of the Ursa 12k?

I asked C7 if they had plans for an Arri LPL mount for the Ursa 12k and they replied its not possible due to the mount depth and diameter of the Ursa.

We use the arri signature primes on the monstro with the wooden camera LPL mount and the C7 LPL mount on the phantom.

Seems odd an LPL mount is not possible for the Ursa
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostWed Oct 28, 2020 7:49 pm

ChristopherSeguine wrote:What is the lens mount flange depth of the Ursa 12k?

I asked C7 if they had plans for an Arri LPL mount for the Ursa 12k and they replied its not possible due to the mount depth and diameter of the Ursa.

We use the arri signature primes on the monstro with the wooden camera LPL mount and the C7 LPL mount on the phantom.

Seems odd an LPL mount is not possible for the Ursa


It’s not the FD (LPL is actually shorter)

Its the WIDTH of the mount. It’ can’t be done because the sensor is recessed into the body.

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostWed Oct 28, 2020 8:45 pm

Thanks, I was thinking since its just S35 size sensor, the lpl width would not be an issue.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostWed Oct 28, 2020 8:50 pm

ChristopherSeguine wrote:Thanks, I was thinking since its just S35 size sensor, the lpl width would not be an issue.


It’s not but the chassis of the camera is the problem.

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 12:19 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Why isn't anybody noticing a steep move to grey and white in the colours?

It must be the braw decoding mechanism. Is it a bug?


I was noticing that too in the 12K to Canon comparison. The skin tones felt washed out or like there was a little bit of bleach bypass effect.

I took Jae's recent samples of the 12K against the Alexa into Resolve to see if I could do a quick and dirty A & B match.

I decoded the URSA 12K to REC709 - REC709 in the RAW tab changed the ISO to 320 and to 6000K then crushed the blacks and made a few color changes. With the ARRI clip I took a little blue off the top and added some contrast and saturation.

ALEXA_1.1.1.jpg
Jae's Alexa
ALEXA_1.1.1.jpg (761.79 KiB) Viewed 1761 times


BRAW-REC709-DECODE_1.3.1.jpg
Jae's URSA 12K
BRAW-REC709-DECODE_1.3.1.jpg (756.88 KiB) Viewed 1761 times


I was surprised that I could get a quick color match (pretty close) with the REC709 decode. I don't find the color to be the typical Blackmagic starting point though I did make more color adjustments in the wheels with the 12K URSA.

Then below is my development with the BMD film and leaving the red / brown push in the grade.

BRAW-BMD-FILM_1.2.2.jpg
BRAW BMD Film Gamma
BRAW-BMD-FILM_1.2.2.jpg (598.58 KiB) Viewed 1761 times


Thanks again Jae for posting the YouTube videos and the samples. All three images are my interpretation of Jae's clips of course not a definitive look, just trying to see a contrasty - saturated look on these files. I definitely feel like you have a more neutral starting point for color decoding to REC 709 in the RAW tab along with Blackmagic's classic "film stock" when choosing how to build a grade.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 1:09 am

Ryan Earl wrote:I definitely feel like you have a more neutral starting point for color decoding to REC 709 in the RAW tab

Not many people realise this, and in a future update "Blackmagic Video" for Gen 5 has been changed to use Rec709 primaries and a 709 gamma curve modified to have much more highlight rolloff to make it easier since so many people already assume its 709. Ext Vid will be the same (using our wide gamut primaries with some extra saturation via the gamma controls) but will have its gamma starting point slightly tweaked for Gen 5 (you can always tweak Ext Vid gamma/saturation to taste yourself using the gamma controls in the RAW tab anyway).

The other approach you could try here is to decode the 12K as LogC and Alexa Wide Gamut with the new options in the RAW tab from Blackmagic RAW SDK beta 3 (bundled in R16.3 b3) and then apply Arri's 709 LUT to both the Alexa and 12K images and then tweak to match (may or may not require less tweaking to match this way but worth experimenting with). When doing this, you might find it interesting to swap between Alexa Wide Gamut and our Blackmagic (wide gamut) while keeping the same gamma and see how much visual difference in the image you notice (you'd see some shift on scopes but it may not be visually obvious). I also doubt this shot requires gamut compression (depending on the space you decode into) so I would try toggling that on/off to see what suits you more as well.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 1:37 am

Figured I should try my second suggestion myself.

As described, decoded as LogC and Alexa Wide Gamut with ARRI's 709 LUT applied to both Alexa and the 12K. Both have their raw decode set to 400ISO and 5600K and 0 tint and no other tweaking. I don't think it would take much to get these to cut together.

Alexa with ARRI 709 LUT:
Image

12K decoded as LogC/AWG in the RAW tab with ARRI 709 LUT:
Image

And for interest this is the new Blackmagic Video Gen 5 to come in an update (gamut comp on):
Image

And Ext Vid Gen 5 (gamut comp on):
Image
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 3:14 am

Yes, a big improvement, and gen 5 is close, but Arri is still improved.

It's more colour, and colour tracks more naturally.

Look at the shading on the forehead above the right eye (our right) compared to Gen 5, the Arri has more colour and more subtle, but, of course the Arri is a low resolution large pixel camera, so a pretty good trade off to get 12k. Also look at the blemish next to the nose in the left.

The Arri image is more enjoyable as can be felt looking at it, but can be "seen" when looking for why you feel that. But these are areas easily improved once you see it. An expert viewer and see'er can pick these areas of improvement up. I imagine Arri being a classic cinema company, probably employs such people, because you view the colour work on film before digital cameras, you can see that they must have such people, even if they are engineers or colour science.

But what is happening in this video I just watched, in the 12k. I presume it wasn't shoot on the 12k, but I have seen such footage on the ABC in the past. Notice the blemishes and colourisation. In contrast, compare to CineD's toning:

Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 12:11 pm

I love his videos because he is out there filming everything however I am disappointed by the lack of colors. With all the light of the city everything looks washed out to me.

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 12:28 pm

jallen0 wrote:I love his videos because he is out there filming everything however I am disappointed by the lack of colors. With all the light of the city everything looks washed out to me.


As with Jae above, this guy apparently doesn't know what to do with log footage. The youtubes tell you nothing about the camera.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 1:49 pm

John Paines wrote:
jallen0 wrote:I love his videos because he is out there filming everything however I am disappointed by the lack of colors. With all the light of the city everything looks washed out to me.


As with Jae above, this guy doesn't apparently doesn't know what to do with log footage. The youtubes tell you nothing about the camera.

True that.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 2:00 pm

CaptainHook wrote:Figured I should try my second suggestion myself.


Thanks for the demo Hook. The functionality that's built into the RAW pipeline is really stellar.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 4:11 pm

I really do think that half the “bad” Video clips out there re:camera are really just showing how poorly misunderstood workflow is.

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 9:07 pm

John Brawley wrote:I really do think that half the “bad” Video clips out there re:camera are really just showing how poorly misunderstood workflow is.

JB


+1
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 9:50 pm

It's 12K new (sort of beta) sensor. I would never expect it's going to "render colors" better than Arri "established sensor".
Resolution is only 25% of the footage. Oversampling is good, but once you pass some point you gain nothing, so no point chasing pixels that bad.
As much as it's nice to have such a product, its also bit of waste time and effort from BM side. Someone has to do it though :D
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostThu Oct 29, 2020 10:29 pm

Thanks Jae, looks good.

Straight raw tab.

BM.jpg
BM.jpg (147.63 KiB) Viewed 1444 times


Presented here with part of a Fuji Superia emulation I'm working on.

Fuji.jpg
Fuji.jpg (154.13 KiB) Viewed 1444 times


Good Luck
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostFri Oct 30, 2020 7:00 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It's 12K new (sort of beta) sensor. I would never expect it's going to "render colors" better than Arri "established sensor".
Resolution is only 25% of the footage. Oversampling is good, but once you pass some point you gain nothing, so no point chasing pixels that bad.
As much as it's nice to have such a product, its also bit of waste time and effort from BM side. Someone has to do it though :D


Isn't it imperfection to human vision, to do less than it can? After all these years 12k should do better than an ancient established sensor, like Samsung 12k phone sensor is supposed to in latitude. This is round one, Red's probably up next?

I think Braw can get processed closer. The issue is that human visiy doesn't see things as is, probably adds colour, and evens out things. So, maybe the basic 12k rendition could be closer to it's ability, and maybe the Arri is processed closer to human "appreciation". I'm speculating here. Si, maybe braw could also get the same.

I've been speculating for a long time, from. My observations, that maybe it's possible to process Sony footage to closely match the Alexa range much more (no techno babel involved, or superiorly going in about about techno babel). I'm talking about getting colour fullness and lower and higher in the range. Anybody that follows me on the post forum knows, and Braw seems to be following. Apart from the higher latitude dual gain, I think a lot of the Arri look would be processing.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostFri Oct 30, 2020 9:17 am

I will take Arri sensor if you ask me by miles and it has nothing to do with resolution. It's because Arri sensor "sees" world closer to human eye :)
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostFri Oct 30, 2020 10:25 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It's 12K new (sort of beta) sensor. I would never expect it's going to "render colors" better than Arri "established sensor".
Resolution is only 25% of the footage. Oversampling is good, but once you pass some point you gain nothing, so no point chasing pixels that bad.
As much as it's nice to have such a product, its also bit of waste time and effort from BM side. Someone has to do it though :D


Render colors better? Its quite obvious that its all about workflow after all the footage that’s been shown from the 12k sensor. Arri has only one true advantage. It has a “straight out of the box“ look, that is appealing to many users and viewers. One of the main reasons to go for Arri cameras is that its tuned for cinematic looking footage and make your workflow fast to get there. The 12K URSA can quite obvious produce just as good looking footage as Arri. But you need skill in post to even it out. Looking at footage from someone who have slammed a Rec709 LUT on it don’t produce magic. It just gives you another look.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostFri Oct 30, 2020 11:08 am

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It's 12K new (sort of beta) sensor. I would never expect it's going to "render colors" better than Arri "established sensor".
Resolution is only 25% of the footage. Oversampling is good, but once you pass some point you gain nothing, so no point chasing pixels that bad.
As much as it's nice to have such a product, its also bit of waste time and effort from BM side. Someone has to do it though :D


Render colors better? Its quite obvious that its all about workflow after all the footage that’s been shown from the 12k sensor. Arri has only one true advantage. It has a “straight out of the box“ look, that is appealing to many users and viewers. One of the main reasons to go for Arri cameras is that its tuned for cinematic looking footage and make your workflow fast to get there. The 12K URSA can quite obvious produce just as good looking footage as Arri. But you need skill in post to even it out. Looking at footage from someone who have slammed a Rec709 LUT on it don’t produce magic. It just gives you another look.


+1

If you take the examples above and ask a director or client which image is more color accurate and which image they prefer you shouldn't be surprised if you get two different answers.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostFri Oct 30, 2020 11:45 am

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It's 12K new (sort of beta) sensor. I would never expect it's going to "render colors" better than Arri "established sensor".
Resolution is only 25% of the footage. Oversampling is good, but once you pass some point you gain nothing, so no point chasing pixels that bad.
As much as it's nice to have such a product, its also bit of waste time and effort from BM side. Someone has to do it though :D


Render colors better? Its quite obvious that its all about workflow after all the footage that’s been shown from the 12k sensor. Arri has only one true advantage. It has a “straight out of the box“ look, that is appealing to many users and viewers. One of the main reasons to go for Arri cameras is that its tuned for cinematic looking footage and make your workflow fast to get there. The 12K URSA can quite obvious produce just as good looking footage as Arri. But you need skill in post to even it out. Looking at footage from someone who have slammed a Rec709 LUT on it don’t produce magic. It just gives you another look.


But this is also the point. Who wants RAW footage which needs week of work to make it nice? The more you have to work on RAW the less developed and "good" sensor is. Sensor is not just a hardware, it's color science and other workflow behind it.
If it's matter of hour vs. a day of work then that's fine, but if you need to fiddle with every scene with power windows etc. then thank you for 12K or 24K :)

I quite like URSA look, but would prefer sensor which is even better than Arri and it's only eg. 6K.
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostFri Oct 30, 2020 12:25 pm

So your basic argument boils down to if it's not as good (or better) as a camera costing multiple times more it's a fail?
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostFri Oct 30, 2020 12:54 pm

No- I just don't see market for 12K. Someone had to do it though, so let it be BM.
I see it as a bit of waste of time, money and effort from BM side.
Not sure why people compare this sensor to Arri? All what is unique about it is its resolution. Rest is nothing special at all.
10x would prefer "amazing" 6K sensor as this is about all what you need these days (unless you want to shoot something special).
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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostFri Oct 30, 2020 4:08 pm

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It's 12K new (sort of beta) sensor. I would never expect it's going to "render colors" better than Arri "established sensor".
Resolution is only 25% of the footage. Oversampling is good, but once you pass some point you gain nothing, so no point chasing pixels that bad.
As much as it's nice to have such a product, its also bit of waste time and effort from BM side. Someone has to do it though :D


Render colors better? Its quite obvious that its all about workflow after all the footage that’s been shown from the 12k sensor. Arri has only one true advantage. It has a “straight out of the box“ look, that is appealing to many users and viewers. One of the main reasons to go for Arri cameras is that its tuned for cinematic looking footage and make your workflow fast to get there.


+1
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostFri Oct 30, 2020 4:17 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:No- I just don't see market for 12K. Someone had to do it though, so let it be BM.
I see it as a bit of waste of time, money and effort from BM side.
Not sure why people compare this sensor to Arri? All what is unique about it is its resolution. Rest is nothing special at all.
10x would prefer "amazing" 6K sensor as this is about all what you need these days (unless you want to shoot something special).


+1 Andrew, but this is something special. I think the price above $6k is a bit if waste of money. The 12k is meant to render good 8k-2k, so worth no more to many as a pocket 6k, as most are looking at 4k or less.

The Arri is really a benchmark to compare it to. Before the 4.6k here, even I said, target the Alexa picture performance at the minimum. But the dual gain sampling seems to give a wide range to color quality, where a Sony seems thin.
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John Griffin

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostFri Oct 30, 2020 5:07 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:No- I just don't see market for 12K. Someone had to do it though, so let it be BM.
I see it as a bit of waste of time, money and effort from BM side.
Not sure why people compare this sensor to Arri? All what is unique about it is its resolution. Rest is nothing special at all.
10x would prefer "amazing" 6K sensor as this is about all what you need these days (unless you want to shoot something special).

So far all we have seen are youtube tests which is not really the basis for any informed judgement. It's not all about resolution but oversampling. Once you sample from more pixels than the final delivery you have the potential to extract better image quality in many different ways. If you want 4k delivery then 6k capture may just be adequate enough as long as you don't have to crop but 12k will offer much more and sometimes people do want to shoot something special.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostSat Oct 31, 2020 10:16 am

We also just had an engineer post graded frames compared to Arri, so, I think that is a good enough start.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Adam Langdon

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Re: 12K in the hands of customers

PostMon Nov 02, 2020 6:15 pm

has anyone done a direct comparison between the UMP G2 and the 12K?
(that's not just a "i threw the Extended Video LUT" type thing?)
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