ATEM Mini Pro Timecode External Audio Sync

Thanks Steve for checking that out. I'll have my ISO next week and I'll replicate it.

So as it stands right now if you use BMD 4k / 6k cameras and a MixPre, all of your timecode will be synced by the output of the ATEM Mini.

The issues start when you use other external sources. Shame that the MixPre couldn't output the timecode, that would have been a great workaround.

The UpDownCross HD arrived today and I was able to test it with my ATEM Mini Pro ISO, Sound Devices MixPre-10 II, and also a Video Devices PIX-E7 monitor (useful for testing purposes since it has HDMI and SDI inputs for video and also an LTC timecode input. It can read and display timecode from any of those inputs).

The short story is that everything worked exactly as I had hoped right out of the box. I just plugged in the UpDownCross and connected the HDMI input to the ATEM, the HDMI output to the MixPre, and the SDI output to the Video Devices monitor. The MixPre received the timecode from the ATEM via HDMI and the Video Devices monitor received the timecode via SDI simultaneously.

I think it's a safe bet that if you added a Teranex converter that you could extract LTC timecode. Several models (e.g. the SDI-to-HDMI and SDI-to-Audio models) have SDI inputs and an XLR output that can be switched between audio and timecode.

I just plugged in the UpDownCross and connected the HDMI input to the ATEM, the HDMI output to the MixPre, and the SDI output to the Video Devices monitor. The MixPre received the timecode from the ATEM via HDMI and the Video Devices monitor received the timecode via SDI simultaneously.

I got lost here for a moment. Where was the HDMI that you plugged into the ATEM coming from? The HDMI output on the ATEM?

So the pathway would be ATEM inputs are all of your video sources and is you are using BMD cameras timecode is being sent to those cameras. The HDMI output on the ATEM goes into the HDMI IN on the UpDownCross HD. The HDMI Out on the UpDownCross HD goes to the MixPre and sends it timecode to sound matches up to the camera inputs. Right so far??

If this is right then that takes away the HDMI feed into a preview monitor. However I also have a Ultrastudio 4K mini and a Video Assist 12K HDR. I'll try them and see if they can also capture and output the timecode before getting the UpDownCross HD. Thoughts?

So the pathway would be ATEM inputs are all of your video sources and is you are using BMD cameras timecode is being sent to those cameras. The HDMI output on the ATEM goes into the HDMI IN on the UpDownCross HD. The HDMI Out on the UpDownCross HD goes to the MixPre and sends it timecode to sound matches up to the camera inputs. Right so far??

That's right.

If this is right then that takes away the HDMI feed into a preview monitor. However I also have a Ultrastudio 4K mini and a Video Assist 12K HDR. I'll try them and see if they can also capture and output the timecode before getting the UpDownCross HD. Thoughts?

In my case my preview monitor takes SDI, so I can use the HDMI for sending timecode to the MixPre and the SDI for monitoring. It's also good for those who want to use the HDMI for monitoring and the SDI to pass timecode. If I just needed two HDMI outputs I might try an HDMI splitter that can pass timecode rather than the UpDownCross. This one is supposed to work: http://amzn.com/B07F7M1SQL

Thanks Steve. I'll try my Ultrastudio 4K mini and Video Assist 12K HDR monitor, both with SDI and HDMI in and out on them and see if it passes timecode this week. If not I know the UpDownCross HD works. Thanks!

Steve,

What your thoughts on using a Tentacle Sync Tentacle to BNC Cable to attach to the SDI out and see if you can jam sync a Tentacle from that?

Steve,

What your thoughts on using a Tentacle Sync Tentacle to BNC Cable to attach to the SDI out and see if you can jam sync a Tentacle from that?

BNC connectors can be used for digital SDI video with embedded timecode and they can also be used for LTC timecode which is just a type of analog audio signal. The Tentacle Sync cable is for LTC timecode so it won't work with an SDI output even though they use the same type of connector. You really need to connect the SDI to one of the Teranex converters and then set the right XLR audio output to send timecode and then use the XLR to Tentacle Sync cable.

If the timecode is first processed in the UDX then processed again in the Teranex it’s a safe bet that the extracted analog LTC is going to be a couple frames late. Once the TC is decoupled from the frame the latency becomes a real and measurable concern.

What is the latency between the in-camera mics and a mic fed directly to the audio mixer? I’d imagine a couple frames minimum, this duration will represent the TC offset as well.

Good Luck

As an FYI I reached out to Sound Devices (MixPre 6 II recorder) and asked them about passing thru the timecode. Their response is as follows:

Thank you for contacting Sound Devices. That is correct that timecode that is input via HDMI is not able to be output as LTC via the stereo out of the MIxPre. Two reasons for this:
1 - HDMI timecode is an embedded digital TC format whereas LTC is an analog audio signal.
2 - The MixPre can output LTC that it generates from its own internal Timecode Generator, not Timecode from another source.

We can add this as feature request, but cannot guarantee if or when it would be implemented.

So maybe in the future but not right now for this set of devices.

So for now we are able to sync up everything as long as the ATEM Mini serves as the TC generator and all other equipment is following the ATEM Mini.

Does anyone know if the ATEM Mini Pro / ISO hardware would be capable to receive and sync to either a digital external TC via HDMI or an analog LTC via audio input?

If yes, we might get this functionality eventually with a firmware update if enough people will request the feature.

So for now we are able to sync up everything as long as the ATEM Mini serves as the TC generator and all other equipment is following the ATEM Mini.

Correct. I'm not sure how much people mind the ATEM being the TC generator versus the difficulty of extracting it from the HDMI output so that it can be used elsewhere. Alto the TC runs continuously whereas it would be nice if you could set it to start and stop based on when the ATEM is recording and/or pass flags over HDMI to make it easier to trigger other devices to start and stop recording along with the ATEM.

Does anyone know if the ATEM Mini Pro / ISO hardware would be capable to receive and sync to either a digital external TC via HDMI or an analog LTC via audio input?

BMD probably knows I'm not sure anyone else knows enough to speculate whether this could be added with just a firmware update or whether BMD would invest the time and effort.

What I don't get is that presumably you're only interested in synchronizing with devices that are connected to the ATEM in order to use higher resolution camera original video and/or audio from a dedicated multitrack audio recorder. Assuming that's the case, the ATEM is going to have an exact copy of the audio waveform from every camera and the main mix from your multitrack audio recorder. That means it should be absolutely trivial to sync any of the camera or audio recorder files with the files from the ATEM based on waveform rather than timecode. It would probably even be more accurate. So why are so many people obsessed with synchronizing based on time code instead?

Because people would like to use other external audio and video devices along with this item and still have the ability to sync everything up in post.

One example would be a BTS camera that had the same timecode as everything else, even though it's not part of the ATEM "system". Another example would be the use of non-BMD cameras and wanting to sync them up in post for better quality.

Relying on a linked sound file to do this is a horrible workaround, especially when timecode is far more superior and flexible.

So why are so many people obsessed with synchronizing based on time code instead?

"obsessed . . ." seems to be a poor choice of words.
With ATEM Mini syncing from external we would be able to utilize everything that a TC synced setup allows.
I for one would love to use Tentacle Sync E and Track E for live recordings, not live broadcast.

Because people would like to use other external audio and video devices along with this item and still have the ability to sync everything up in post.

One example would be a BTS camera that had the same timecode as everything else, even though it's not part of the ATEM "system". Another example would be the use of non-BMD cameras and wanting to sync them up in post for better quality.

BMD or non-BMD shouldn't make any difference. Any HDMI input that's plugged into the Mini Pro ISO will have its audio recorded in the ISO files so the ATEM will have an exact copy of the camera audio to use for sync.

Similarly if you plug the main mix output of an audio recorder into the ATEM you'll have an exact copy of that to sync with the audio recorder (assuming you're recording the mix tracks along with the ISO audio tracks in the audio recorder)

It shouldn't even be a problem to use additional devices that aren't connected to the ATEM, since you could use whatever timecode source you want to sync all your devices except for the ATEM, and then use waveform to sync up the ATEM files.

Relying on a linked sound file to do this is a horrible workaround, especially when timecode is far more superior and flexible.

That's called "proof by assertion" . Why specifically is waveform sync horrible? I understand in the typical case where you're trying to sync scratch audio from a camera with higher quality audio from a completely different mic, but in this case you've got the identical audio recorded in two places to use for sync.

"obsessed . . ." seems to be a poor choice of words.

Perhaps... it was very late at night and I'm stressed out waiting for election results

Anyway I think being obsessed with trying to solve a technical issue is a good thing so it was really a compliment

Relying on a linked sound file to do this is a horrible workaround, especially when timecode is far more superior and flexible.

That's called "proof by assertion" . Why specifically is waveform sync horrible? I understand in the typical case where you're trying to sync scratch audio from a camera with higher quality audio from a completely different mic, but in this case you've got the identical audio recorded in two places to use for sync.

In my case that is exactly what I am trying to do. My audio will be coming from a MixPre 6 II and the last thing I want to play with is trying to use scratch audio and MixPre audio and sync everything together.

I think the issue here is really not that it cannot be done by the way you state but why can't it be done in a way that most people would call "professional". Timecode is well recognized as being "professional" and it is in this area where Blackmagic slips a bit. They have some things that play well in the "professional" arena and other things that don't. Just assume that at this point in their companies history that everything needs to be able to do both...and design for that.

In my case that is exactly what I am trying to do. My audio will be coming from a MixPre 6 II and the last thing I want to play with is trying to use scratch audio and MixPre audio and sync everything together.

My point is that it's not really scratch audio in this case. Scratch audio would be something like trying to sync low-quality audio from a built-in camera mic with good quality audio from a lav mic on a standalone audio recorder. But in this case you're be syncing MixPre audio recorded on the MixPre with the same MixPre audio fed into the ATEM.

Syncing multiple copies of the same audio in Resolve is accurate and reliable.
I have used this method in multicam setups long before connecting via ATEM Mini Pro.
Setup: High quality multitrack audio recorded professionally to SDD and a mixdown wirelessly transmitted to each camera.
The wireless delay was exactly 2 frames, so that is easily compensated for.

But a TC workflow is much preferred.
Please BMD, let the ATEM Minis sync to external.

In case anyone has not tried this there is no camera control or timecode passing when you include the BMD Video Assist 12G HRD Monitor in the pathway. I ran a cable from the camera to the monitor and then to the ATEM Mini Pro ISO and did not have camera control or record functionality.

It's a shame because I was really looking forward to keeping monitors on the camera to set-up shots and track them during recording. I'll have to figure this out.

In case anyone has not tried this there is no camera control or timecode passing when you include the BMD Video Assist 12G HRD Monitor in the pathway.

That's been discussed pretty extensively in this forum. The HDMI camera control protocol requires bidirectional communication over HDMI rather than the normal one-way flow from the camera to the ATEM. Some HDMI cables can't even pass the information going in the other direction, let alone extra devices between the camera and the ATEM (even BMD's own devices).

Steve, I have been following this and understand the issues. I just did not specifically see that the VA monitor was tested. My bad if I missed that device.

Steve, I have been following this and understand the issues. I just did not specifically see that the VA monitor was tested. My bad if I missed that device.

I don't think it was in this thread but in other threads in this forum. There are some threads discussing whether the Video Assist or other devices pass the HDMI control info, some other ones discussing why some cables don't seem to pass the control information, other ones discussing why you can't convert the HDMI to SDI (for URSA cameras) or convert HDMI to SDI and back to HDMI without losing the camera control information, etc.

hi there,
I'm new here and recently bought the ATEM mini pro iso.
great machine, good job BM!

i also wondered if there is a possibility to give LTC to an external device. (for audio multitrack live music band)

I came across the following YouTube vid from hi-tech on life called:
" What's Inside the ATEM Mini Pro? A Quick Teardown to see Just What Blackmagic has done!"
i made a screen and the connection J13 on the pcb looks very interesting.
is it an input or an output RTC CLKout ?? .
anybody tested this?

grtzzzz

I know this is a little limiting but it worked for me. Open up the TentacleSetup App. Once you have connected to your tentacle device, press the "SetToSystemTime" button. Set the Timecode Generator in The Atem Softwore Control is set to "TimeOfDay." Connect the Tentacle Device to the mic/aux input on the mix pre 3 so it can JamSync the timecode. It works perfectly.

For what it's worth I was able to verify today that you can go ATEM HDMI out -> UpDownCross -> Teranex SDI to HDMI Converter -> XLR audio output (configured as an LTC timecode output) -> Sound Devices timecode input. This gives you a continuous external timecode feed and isn't just a one-time jam sync of independent clocks. It also works with arbitrary (not just clock-based) timecode values coming from the ATEM and it will work with any device having an LTC timecode input and doesn't doesn't require the rare HDMI timecode input feature that the MixPre has.

For the Tentacle sync solution if I understand correctly you're depending that the ATEM clock is synchronized with your computer clock and then you're synchronizing the computer clock with the Tentacle clock and then synchronizing the Tentacle clock with the Sound Devices clock and then hoping that the Sound Devices Clock and the ATEM clock don't drift apart even if they were perfectly synchronized to start with.

Hello Udo. That's an excellent question that I cannot answer completely. Certainly you will get the timecode from the camera on an HDMI split but the splitter will not pass camera control back to the camera. I did try.
(snip)
Regards, Gary

if the timecode comes out the hdmi output (program / multiview), you could split that I suppose

if the timecode comes out the hdmi output (program / multiview), you could split that I suppose

Some of the devices I tested that have both an HDMI input and output did not pass the ATEM's timecode through. I suspect you'd have the same issue with most HDMI splitters but that's just an educated guess. The UpDownCross HD definitely passes the timecode through to all its outputs and the new Micro Converter BiDirectional 3G is supposed to as well. Of course those only have a single HDMI output so you'd have to use SDI for your monitor, recorder, capture device, or whatever else you wanted to use the ATEM's output for. Alternatively you can use the SDI output for the timecode (as I described above) and use the HDMI output as a pass-through.

Anyone have any updates on this. And I guess by "anyone" I mean Blackmagic and the possibility of adding Tentacle Sync Timecode Jam functionally to the ATEM Mini Iso Pro? Maybe allowing the jam synced timecode from a camera to the ATEM Mini Iso Pro to set the master timecode instead of it pulling from the computer clock.

I'd also love to see an option to make the timecode output start and stop when you start and stop recording, and ideally to also send the appropriate start and stop recording flags. This would make it a lot easier to trigger external recorders.

Looking to get a check on this workflow pathway.

ATEM Mini Pro ISO HDMI out to the HDMI Input of the new Micro Converter BiDirectional SDI/HDMI 3G. Use the HDMI Out to the Sound Device Mix-Pre 6 II HDMI in to capture timecode to that device.

Use the SDI Output to a Tentacle Sync and ( I think) the Tentacle Sync then gets Jam Synced by the timeout output. Then use that Jam Synced Tentacle Sync to send that timecode to another Tentacle Sync to sync additional cameras not part of the ATEM Mini ISO inputs.

IF this works then I am still short an output to use for the program monitor so I am not sure this is a workable solution. As to why this is an issue I have 5 inputs and only 4 pathways, so I need that extra device to be the same timecode as everything else out there.

(Says again: I really need BMD to allow timecode sync input into one of the audio ports. Or tell us that the hardware makes this impossible with this device.)

Looking to get a check on this workflow pathway.

ATEM Mini Pro ISO HDMI out to the HDMI Input of the new Micro Converter BiDirectional SDI/HDMI 3G. Use the HDMI Out to the Sound Device Mix-Pre 6 II HDMI in to capture timecode to that device.

This part works with the UpDownCross HD but I haven't been able to personally verify that it also works with the new Micro Converter BiDirectional.

Use the SDI Output to a Tentacle Sync and ( I think) the Tentacle Sync then gets Jam Synced by the timeout output.

As far as I understand the Tentacle Sync can't read timecode from SDI. It can read LTC timecode using a BNC cable and SDI also uses BNC connectors but it's not the same thing. It would be like expecting a device with an analog RCA audio input to handle S/PDIF coax digital audio just because S/PDIF also uses an RCA connector.

You would need something like one of the Teranex converters that can extract LTC timecode onto its audio output. The SDI to HDMI 12G converter can do that or the SDI to Analog 12G or the SDI to Audio 12G. Then you would use an XLR female cable to connect it to the Tentacle Sync.

Thanks Steve. Concerning the new Micro Converter BiDirectional SDI/HDMI 3G the website specifically states it will pass along timecode, so, for now, I'll take their word on that.

I can also confirm that Tentacle Sync cannot pull the timecode from the SDI feed from the new Micro Converter BiDirectional SDI/HDMI 3G. Or any other SDI feed. I called Tentacle Sync to confirm.

Damn, why does this have to be so difficult.

Thanks Steve. Concerning the new Micro Converter BiDirectional SDI/HDMI 3G the website specifically states it will pass along timecode, so, for now, I'll take their word on that.

Most likely it will work fine. But it also states that it can convert camera control signals and I've seen a few reports from people here saying that the camera control conversion isn't working

What's to stop you from recording LTC on the scratch track? Replacing TC with audio LTC is literally a one click process in Resolve.

Good Luck

What's to stop you from recording LTC on the scratch track? Replacing TC with audio LTC is literally a one click process in Resolve.

It wouldn't be passed to Pocket Cinema cameras like the ATEM timecode is but it might be an acceptable solution if you're not using Pocket Cinema cameras. IMHO an even easier solution is just to sync on audio waveform because the ATEM will record identical (not just scratch but literally identical) copies of the audio recorded in all four cameras.

It's probably not relevant to what people are trying to do on this thread, but I got to play with a Streaming Bridge today. Just for fun I wanted to see if it would pass the ATEM timecode through to its SDI or HDMI output. If it worked you could theoretically use it as part of the solution for sending ATEM timecode to other devices and avoid the need for extra splitters or converters to get the signal from the main HDMI output (assuming you needed the Streaming Bridge anyway for other purposes like having an extra program output without losing Multiview). More interestingly, it would be cool as a way to record audio and video from a remote site and get an accurate timecode that doesn't include the Internet latency.

In any case, it's a moot point because I wasn't able to get any timecode from either the HDMI or SDI outputs of the Streaming Bridge.

Thanks for checking that Steve. I had that same thought as well.

As to others stating that you can always sync on audio, I agree that is an option. It's not 100% foolproof but certainly able to be done.

I just think that Blackmagic is always dipping their toe into the professional waters , which is great, but then is forgetting that not everyone wants to, or can, play with just Blackmagic products alone. It is certainly their choice but man it's frustrating to try to bring in outside professional products into the Blackmagic eco structure sometimes.

A more thoughful post was deleted, here's the Cliff's Note's.

Run LTC to the cameras and AMPI, record the LTC. All devices have the correct LTC embedded or recorded, click, click, now it's embedded.

Good Luck

A more thoughful post was deleted, here's the Cliff's Note's.
Run LTC to the cameras and AMPI, record the LTC. All devices have the correct LTC embedded or recorded, click, click, now it's embedded.
Good Luck

My point is that they all already have an even better form of LTC embedded in the form of the audio waveforms, because the ATEM records an identical copy of each camera's audio. No need for jam syncing or plugging in a bunch of Tentacle Sync devices. It doesn't even matter what audio each camera is picking up as long as it's recording something. You could fart into each camera and there's your perfect signal for sync

You could fart into each camera and there's your perfect signal for sync

Your reputation preceeds (but mostly follows) you, I prefer this method.

clickclick.png (478.7 KiB) Viewed 28616 times

Good Luck

You could fart into each camera and there's your perfect signal for sync

Given my luck the effort to achieve sound sync into cameras spaced far away using this technique would result in an unpleasant experience for me. And everyone else involved in the shoot.

Given my luck the effort to achieve sound sync into cameras spaced far away using this technique would result in an unpleasant experience for me. And everyone else involved in the shoot.

Why would camera spacing matter? I'm talking about whatever sound the camera picks up being recorded by the camera and then also an exact copy of that audio being transmitted from that camera over HDMI to the ATEM (along with the video) which also records it in the ISO recording for that camera. I'm not talking about the camera microphone picking up similar sounds as some other microphone connected to the ATEM.

have you asked sound-devices about such a feature ?

I did. My response from this is listed in this thread.

Can you jam sync a mixpre ii from one of the camera hdmi outputs off of the Atem or does it have to always be connected?

The UpDownCross HD arrived today and I was able to test it with my ATEM Mini Pro ISO, Sound Devices MixPre-10 II, and also a Video Devices PIX-E7 monitor (useful for testing purposes since it has HDMI and SDI inputs for video and also an LTC timecode input. It can read and display timecode from any of those inputs).

The short story is that everything worked exactly as I had hoped right out of the box. I just plugged in the UpDownCross and connected the HDMI input to the ATEM, the HDMI output to the MixPre, and the SDI output to the Video Devices monitor. The MixPre received the timecode from the ATEM via HDMI and the Video Devices monitor received the timecode via SDI simultaneously.

I think it's a safe bet that if you added a Teranex converter that you could extract LTC timecode. Several models (e.g. the SDI-to-HDMI and SDI-to-Audio models) have SDI inputs and an XLR output that can be switched between audio and timecode.

Steve, what cabling did you use to take the HDMI timecode into the Mix-Pre 10 II?

Steve, what cabling did you use to take the HDMI timecode into the Mix-Pre 10 II?

http://amzn.com/B008743J90

Thanks Steve. For some reason I thought I couldn't use that access port to send timecode in. I just thought it was for a camera control input flag to start recording.

I wanted to post an update here on another solution I can confirm works. Getting timecode from the ATEM Pro ISO to my Mix-Pre 6 II sound recorder. A big thanks to Steve Kanefsky for all of his work in this thread.

Here the pathway:

Hardware Set-up:
1) ATEM Mini Pro ISO - Take the HDMI Out to the HDMI In of the UltraStudio 4k Mini
2) Ultrastudio 4k Mini - Take the HDMI out to your confidence monitor
3) Ultrastudio 4k Mini - Take the SDI out to the new SDI to HDMI 3G Micro Converter
4) SDI to HDMI 3G Micro Converter - Take the HDMI out to the Sound Devices Mix-Pre 6II mini HDMI TC Input. Go to the timecode menu and select HDMI TC input

Software Set-up:
1) You must be running the ATEM Software Control software for the entire show
2) Go under the Output tab then select the Capture Video button. Select the Ultrastudio 4k Mini as the input device. As a side note the Ultrastudio 4k Mini must be connected to your computer via thunderbolt.
3) Go to the Desktop Video control screen for the Ultrastudio 4k Mini and select the right output for your individual confidence monitor. I used 1080p 60 for my TV.

Expected Result:
A) I am using 2 BMPCC 6k cameras and a mic that goes to the Mix-Pre 6K. All of them are fed the same timecode generated by the ATEM Mini Pro ISO.
B) I can attach an SSD drive and record the ISO files and then drop in the audio that matches the timecode inside Resolve.

Next Challenge:
Find some way to get that timecode into either a Tentacle Sync or my Sony cameras. So far I have no idea how to do this.

Revisiting this topic. I guess one question is how significant the drift is in the Mini's ToD clock vs that of something like a Tentacle. Tentacles are rated at something like 1 frame of drift per 24 hours, right? In theory, if the computer and the Tentacle are generating TC based on the same ToD atomic clock, shouldn't they be at least pretty close to within a frame or two? I'm curious how bad the drift actually is in practice and if anyone has tried this to see what happens "IRL"...