BMPCC4K in demanding Ext. (Polarizers, ND, Faders, IR Cut)

Hi, question for BMPCC4K shooters: in demanding outside situations, such as sunny beaches, mountain, lakes, with much sunlight and water reflections, would you rather use:

- A polarizer filter + a ND filter (like: Hoya polarizer https://www.amazon.it/Hoya-Filtro-polar ... s=1&sr=8-5 + Hoya ProND https://www.amazon.it/Hoya-PRO-ND-FILTR ... 380&sr=8-2

- A ND Fader + IR CUT (like the Genustech ND Fader 82mm + the Hoya IR CUT https://www.amazon.it/Hoya-Filtro-stell ... 461&sr=8-2)

Thanks!

I would use an ND. Period. Unless there are people with critical clothes or lots of plants, then you need an ND that is cutting IR too or you need to add an IR cut.
A polariser is an 'effect' filter, for example to make the camera look through the water surface or enhance the contrast in the sky.

An ND fader is comfortable, but the worst solution. It combines two polarisers with their specific side effects (like rainbow colors on car windshields) and most of the cheaper ones introduce color shifts or even artifacts. If you spend money for a good one, you can get away with it in run-n-gun situations.

Uli, I’m hoping you’re right. On Monday morning I’ll be shooting toward the sun from the beach if the weather cooperates. Visited the site this morning and there’s a lot of specular light reflections that a polarizer would tame. Problem is I don’t have a polarizer. I may take my SLR Magic Vari-ND Mark II which can act as a polarizer or just go with conventional IRND filters.

Different filters for different uses...I wouldn't try to choose between them.

I would suggest an ND with good IR cut AND a polarizing filter.

Different filters for different uses...I wouldn't try to choose between them.

I would suggest an ND with good IR cut AND a polarizing filter.

Thanks; could you point me some good ND with IR Cut models?

Different filters for different uses...I wouldn't try to choose between them.

I would suggest an ND with good IR cut AND a polarizing filter.

Thanks; could you point me some good ND with IR Cut models?

I personally use the Syrp, but I heard it is no longer available. Hoya makes them. NISI is well regarded. Heard good things about Firecrest. (Can't vouch for any of those other than the Syrp.)

I use NiSi Nano IRND rectangular filters or SLR Magic 82mm and Tokina Kenko 86mm IRND screw-ons. They’re decent but not as consistent in colour (82mm ND1.8 both seem to be slightly off the rest but post tint cleans that up) as the Lee filters but what I have was more economical without being cheap.

Thanks; could you point me some good ND with IR Cut models?

You might find it useful to check out these two threads on IR Cut filters:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=121848

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=122408

For ND, I use both B+W XS-Pro threaded filters, which are straight ND filters, and Lee Filters system rectangular filters, which offers IRND filters.

This is the Lee Filters page: https://www.leefilters.com/index.php/camera I use the Lee100 filter holder and the ProGlass IRND filters.

I also use a B+W Kaesemann circular polariser (threaded) and a Lee linear polariser (rectangular).

One typical problem with screw-on ND faders is the inability to change the rotational position of the first stage. That makes it difficult to use them as polarisers or trying to minimize the side effects.
For IR blocking I use a Hoya.

Uli, the SLR Magic Vari-ND does allow you to change the position of both filters; you can lock the first filter where you want it as a feature of that particular device. Or you can leave both filters free to rotate to get the polarization you desire. It is tricky though. I don’t consider myself an expert with it, but I’ll try on Monday to manage the sunlight bouncing off the ocean waves.

That’s definitely a helpful feature and rare with ND faders.

I don't use variable (aka fader) ND filters because I don't feel that I need to. However, I think that it's worth noting that this is a pretty purist attitude, some might say snobbish. There are an awful lot of people, especially people who see themselves as "run and gun" shooters, who use variable ND filters and swear by them. It's the same perspective that drives the interest in cameras, such as the new Pocket 6K Pro, that have built-in ND filters.

A variable ND filter is also quite a bit cheaper than a collection of individual ND filters covering the same range, not something to be scoffed at. Some people can afford to purchase a variable ND that is better quality than what they can afford for individual filters, and some probably just have what they regard as better ways to spend their money.

I learned a new word in this thread. I know what a variable ND filter is, but I don't recall seeing the term fader ND before.

VND's have lots of issues both talked about ( X patterns, softness, polarising artefacts and colour shifts) and not talked about;
- password 'VND'

VND's have lots of issues ...

I don't use variable NDs, and I'm not a proponent, but I also don't have a religious attitude on the subject. The fact is, variable NDs are widely used with results that users find acceptable. A couple of posts above, Rick Lang talks about his own variable ND.

There are a lot of videos about these filters, covering their pros and cons. I think that people should watch some of them, having regard to their own needs and pocketbook, and come to a personal decision.

When I was buying 82mm ND filtration for a Fujinon MK 18-55mm, I considered both B+W solid NDs and B+W variable ND. I went with the former, but B+W variable ND would have saved me quite a lot of money.

For IR, I use the Hoya UV&IR Cut. While UV is not such a problem for digital sensors as it used to be for film, it can't hurt.
But it definitely helps with IR contamination.

VND's have lots of issues ...

I don't use variable NDs, and I'm not a proponent, but I also don't have a religious attitude on the subject. The fact is, variable NDs are widely used with results that users find acceptable. A couple of posts above, Rick Lang talks about his own variable ND.

There are a lot of videos about these filters, covering their pros and cons. I think that people should watch some of them, having regard to their own needs and pocketbook, and come to a personal decision.

When I was buying 82mm ND filtration for a Fujinon MK 18-55mm, I considered both B+W solid NDs and B+W variable ND. I went with the former, but B+W variable ND would have saved me quite a lot of money.

I wasn't saying people shouldn't use them at all but that they should be aware of the issues. Indeed for many they are a good solution in a situation where exposure needs to be changed quickly and easily. The new P6p pro would seem to point to the way forwards (or backwards as most proper cinema video cameras have had them as standard for ages) with all cameras and negate the need for both VND's and fixed ND's.

I began with only the SLR Magic Vari-ND on the USRA Mini 4.6K in the spring of 2016. It’s convenient of course and my only current option for a polarizer on the shoot Monday. But for precision, and handling very bright situations, my fixed IRND are best.

Different filters for different uses...I wouldn't try to choose between them.

I would suggest an ND with good IR cut AND a polarizing filter.

Thanks; could you point me some good ND with IR Cut models?

I personally use the Syrp, but I heard it is no longer available. Hoya makes them. NISI is well regarded. Heard good things about Firecrest. (Can't vouch for any of those other than the Syrp.)

The optical quality of the FireCrests is very good.

So is this one, though not if you need it in a hurry (I joined the Kickstarter, and received mine about a week ago): https://www.hyfilters.co/shop/circular-filters/revoring-variable-neutral-density/.

I don't know whether or not it has an IR filter in it, because my cameras do so I didn't check.

It's definitely the best looking (image wise) vari ND I've encountered yet though, in that I couldn't detect any color shift.

It's definitely the best looking (image wise) vari ND I've encountered yet though, in that I couldn't detect any color shift.

And it apparently covers 1.5 to 10 stops. Pretty interesting for US$184, with a reasonable surcharge for larger filter sizes (e.g. +$35 for 82mm).

It would be great to get your assessment after you've used it for awhile.

The Revoring version also fits a reasonably wide range of filter ring sizes, so you don't need a whole lot of step up rings with these, which is quite nice

No dreaded X at 10 stops as long as you don’t use a lens wider than 16mm? The video didn’t comment on that limit. SLR Magic Vari-ND II has a maximum of 6 stops without the dreaded X. Will be interested in seeing your results testing this in the real world. Looks innovative but wish they took the time to show results stepping through the range to see if there are colour shifts.

Different filters for different uses...I wouldn't try to choose between them.

I would suggest an ND with good IR cut AND a polarizing filter.

Thanks for all your answers; while I learned a great deal from all the answers, I'll quote this because I think it sums up the question; I'll give more surrounding info:

I have to shoot a short film on location, mountain/lake. Camera is BMPCC4K. Location scouting and tests gave me very bright sunlight and reflections; I used my Genustech Eclipse 82mm ND Fader, which I use often but gave me problems as I can't control polarization with it (only the second polarizer turns). Also, I didn't like the color (I use this ND Fader for B&W mostly and it has been good).

So: good ND+IR Cut and good Polarizer. I need these 3 things; I read somewhere that IR pollution isn't bad on Pocket4K *without* filters, but gets bad when you use NDs. So, these three things (polarization is a must with the lake surface and to see into water for certain shots).

This is a self financed zero budget short; so, in investing, I have to find the better solution quality/price that enables me to shoot. I think I have three possible ways:

MATTE BOX with two 4x4 filter holders, one rotating:
- 4x4 IRND (Nisi? Hoya?)
- 4x4 Polarizer (Nisi? other brands?)

SCREW ON (77mm or 82mm), 3 stacked:
- UV-IR Cut filter (Hoya? B+W?)
- Polarizer (Hoya? B+W?)
- ND (two or three in different strenght)

SCREW ON (77mm or 82mm), 2 stacked:
- UV-IR Cut filter (Hoya? B+W?)
- ND Fader with both rotating filters control, so I can control both polarization and ND filtration (SRL Magic does it? other brands?)

All kinds of suggestions and help are welcome. Thanks everyone!

Matt

So: good ND+IR Cut and good Polarizer. I need these 3 things; I read somewhere that IR pollution isn't bad on Pocket4K *without* filters, but gets bad when you use NDs. So, these three things (polarization is a must with the lake surface and to see into water for certain shots).

The sensor is basically capturing the same amount of IR all the time, so as you add NDs and lower the amount of visible light, the IR proportionally grows.

MATTE BOX with two 4x4 filter holders, one rotating:
- 4x4 IRND (Nisi? Hoya?)
- 4x4 Polarizer (Nisi? other brands?)

That's the most flexible, but probably also the most expensive.

SCREW ON (77mm or 82mm), 2 stacked:
- UV-IR Cut filter (Hoya? B+W?)
- ND Fader with both rotating filters control, so I can control both polarization and ND filtration (SRL Magic does it? other brands?)

That's probably the most cost effective, and also the lowest impact as far as finagling gear goes. The only variable ND that I have had experience with so far is the H&Y one, which wouldn't require any stacking. The 82mm RevoRing version will fit lenses between 67 and 82mm filter threads.

For other brands my familiarity is limited to what others have posted on this thread.

I have to shoot a short film on location, mountain/lake. Camera is BMPCC4K. Location scouting and tests gave me very bright sunlight and reflections...

This is a self financed zero budget short...

All kinds of suggestions and help are welcome.

Since you've asked for suggestions, I'm going to say how I would do this, which is not necessarily how others would.

This sounds like a personal project. As such, the first thing that I would do is plan the trip to the location so that I don't spend my time fighting "very bright sunlight and reflections". As part of that, I would want to get a sun path chart for the day or days of filming, and if necessary I would arrange accommodation in the area to make my plan work.

One objective of the planning would be to reduce the need for neutral density filtration for exposure reasons as distinct from apparent depth of field reasons. It's a different issue, but another objective would be to make lighting people easier.

I would also read the link in post #8 to the thread called "What's Your Trigger to Use an IR Cut Filter?" The link is viewtopic.php?f=2&t=122408

Having read that, I would decide how much neutral density filtration there has to be (my trigger) before I start using an IR cut filter. Depending on my trigger, and my planning, it may be that I wouldn't need an IR cut at all. Another approach is to use IRND filters that deal with IR and ND in one piece of glass.

If the lake with sky would figure prominently, I would also want to bring a graduated neutral density filter. The latter is an option for me because I use the Lee system. It's probably irrelevant for you. In particular, I think that threaded graduated neutral density filters are a waste of money.

If I didn't have much experience with a polariser, I wouldn't bring one unless I had time to practice with it and knew exactly what I was going to do with it. A polariser has its place, but as you no doubt know it is also easy to go overboard and make a real mess of one's footage, especially around mountains and lakes.

This thread has enough about solid vs variable ND that you should be in a position, perhaps after looking at a few videos about the pros and cons of variable ND, to decide which works best for your needs and pocketbook.

On filter brands, any of the ones that people have spoken well of in this thread will work. It's a matter of preference and price.

It's possible that I've missed the point. Perhaps you plan to film in "very bright sunlight and reflections" on purpose, and have the big scrims, etc. that one should have to do that. If so, ignore much of what I've suggested

Hope that helps.

Different filters for different uses...I wouldn't try to choose between them.

I would suggest an ND with good IR cut AND a polarizing filter.

Thanks for all your answers; while I learned a great deal from all the answers, I'll quote this because I think it sums up the question; I'll give more surrounding info:

I have to shoot a short film on location, mountain/lake. Camera is BMPCC4K. Location scouting and tests gave me very bright sunlight and reflections; I used my Genustech Eclipse 82mm ND Fader, which I use often but gave me problems as I can't control polarization with it (only the second polarizer turns). Also, I didn't like the color (I use this ND Fader for B&W mostly and it has been good).

So: good ND+IR Cut and good Polarizer. I need these 3 things; I read somewhere that IR pollution isn't bad on Pocket4K *without* filters, but gets bad when you use NDs. So, these three things (polarization is a must with the lake surface and to see into water for certain shots).

This is a self financed zero budget short; so, in investing, I have to find the better solution quality/price that enables me to shoot. I think I have three possible ways:

MATTE BOX with two 4x4 filter holders, one rotating:
- 4x4 IRND (Nisi? Hoya?)
- 4x4 Polarizer (Nisi? other brands?)

SCREW ON (77mm or 82mm), 3 stacked:
- UV-IR Cut filter (Hoya? B+W?)
- Polarizer (Hoya? B+W?)
- ND (two or three in different strenght)

SCREW ON (77mm or 82mm), 2 stacked:
- UV-IR Cut filter (Hoya? B+W?)
- ND Fader with both rotating filters control, so I can control both polarization and ND filtration (SRL Magic does it? other brands?)

All kinds of suggestions and help are welcome. Thanks everyone!

Matt

If you’re on a budget, I’d recommend Freewell’s screw-on HARD STOP VARIABLE ND – I personally use only the 2–5 stop 77 mm, but they also bundle it with a 6–9 stop. It’s quite good, and it prevents the X-pattern by having hard stops at both the starting and end points. It’s also got an IR-blocking coating that may impart a greenish tinge to your footage, which you can get rid of by adding magenta tint in post – but it’s negligible. And I personally prefer cool colour temperature and, in fact, add green tint in post, so the filter works OK for me.

Increasingly, I find myself using a polarising filter – Tiffen’s 77 mm Linear Polarizer – almost all the time, especially for exteriors. Not only because it makes vegetation and blue sky look great, but also because I’m surprised how much I missed all these years the fact that it makes facial skin look clean and never oily, especially on darker skin tones. Some people maintain that a reflective skin shows vitality, but I’d argue otherwise.

I have now started looking back at all my favourite movies and shows to try to guess if they’re using a polarizer to cut down skin reflection – and I’m shocked with how considerably wide their use is for that particular effect. Everything from major shows such as Breaking Bad to relatively unknown movies such as The Greatest Game Ever Played have used them extensively.

Different filters for different uses...I wouldn't try to choose between them.

I would suggest an ND with good IR cut AND a polarizing filter.

Thanks for all your answers; while I learned a great deal from all the answers, I'll quote this because I think it sums up the question; I'll give more surrounding info:

I have to shoot a short film on location, mountain/lake. Camera is BMPCC4K. Location scouting and tests gave me very bright sunlight and reflections; I used my Genustech Eclipse 82mm ND Fader, which I use often but gave me problems as I can't control polarization with it (only the second polarizer turns). Also, I didn't like the color (I use this ND Fader for B&W mostly and it has been good).

So: good ND+IR Cut and good Polarizer. I need these 3 things; I read somewhere that IR pollution isn't bad on Pocket4K *without* filters, but gets bad when you use NDs. So, these three things (polarization is a must with the lake surface and to see into water for certain shots).

This is a self financed zero budget short; so, in investing, I have to find the better solution quality/price that enables me to shoot. I think I have three possible ways:

MATTE BOX with two 4x4 filter holders, one rotating:
- 4x4 IRND (Nisi? Hoya?)
- 4x4 Polarizer (Nisi? other brands?)

SCREW ON (77mm or 82mm), 3 stacked:
- UV-IR Cut filter (Hoya? B+W?)
- Polarizer (Hoya? B+W?)
- ND (two or three in different strenght)

SCREW ON (77mm or 82mm), 2 stacked:
- UV-IR Cut filter (Hoya? B+W?)
- ND Fader with both rotating filters control, so I can control both polarization and ND filtration (SRL Magic does it? other brands?)

All kinds of suggestions and help are welcome. Thanks everyone!

Matt

If you’re on a budget, I’d recommend Freewell’s screw-on HARD STOP VARIABLE ND – I personally use only the 2–5 stop 77 mm, but they also bundle it with a 6–9 stop. It’s quite good, and it prevents the X-pattern by having hard stops at both the starting and end points. It’s also got an IR-blocking coating that may impart a greenish tinge to your footage, which you can get rid of by adding magenta tint in post – but it’s negligible. And I personally prefer cool colour temperature and, in fact, add green tint in post, so the filter works OK for me.

Increasingly, I find myself using a polarising filter – Tiffen’s 77 mm Linear Polarizer – almost all the time, especially for exteriors. Not only because it makes vegetation and blue sky look great, but also because I’m surprised how much I missed all these years the fact that it makes facial skin look clean and never oily, especially on darker skin tones. Some people maintain that a reflective skin shows vitality, but I’d argue otherwise.

I have now started looking back at all my favourite movies and shows to try to guess if they’re using a polarizer to cut down skin reflection – and I’m shocked with how considerably wide their use is for that particular effect. Everything from major shows such as Breaking Bad to relatively unknown movies such as The Greatest Game Ever Played have used them extensively.

Thanks, so do you stack the Tiffen Polarizer 77 on the Variable ND? Doesn't they interfere, being 3 polarizers stacked? Wouldn't it be simplier to have a Vari ND which permits to turn both filters, so you can control polarization and ND? In what order do you stack them?

Thanks, so do you stack the Tiffen Polarizer 77 on the Variable ND? Doesn't they interfere, being 3 polarizers stacked? Wouldn't it be simplier to have a Vari ND which permits to turn both filters, so you can control polarization and ND? In what order do you stack them?

Never had any problems. The polariser goes first and the VND at last. Indeed, I even pop a diffusion filter in between.

But if you want to play it safe – cause filter-stacking’s effects are also proportional to lens quality – then check out K&F Concept’s Variable ND&CPL Filter. As you can tell, it’s both a circular polariser and a 2–5 stop VND. It’ll also be cheaper than any other combination.

If you go for this one, let me know how you find it. I stumbled upon its existence after I’d already gone for the Tiffen polariser and the Freewell VND.

I was able to use the polarizing effect on the SLR Magic Vari-ND 82mm to a limited effect while shooting at ND1.8 yesterday. It did help deepen the sky but I was three hours late getting to the site and the sun wasn’t where I wanted it to be to show a more dramatic effect. Still looked decent though so that’s an option. Used my B+W 86mm IR Cut mounted on the Vari-ND.

I'm a bit confused by all this IR pollution talk?

I don't seem to see the effects in my footage but I then again I am slowly going blind...,

I'm not a fan of any kind of ND filters so what IR only filters can you suggest in both screw on 77mm and 4x4 (I have a cheap matte box).

BTW: Don't these cameras have IR filters covering the sensor?

Tenks!