ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

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MitchellNeth

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ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostMon Sep 07, 2020 8:35 pm

Can anyone better explain to me what process is happening when I initiate auto W/B by holding the W/B balance button on the ATEM Camera Control Panel for ~3-5 seconds?

I know this sounds kinda dumb, "duh Mitchell it's auto white balancing" The problem is that while the readout on the panel reads "auto" for a split second and the camera seems to make an adjustment that is likely an accurate white balance, but upon going back to hold the W/B button for a simple readout it still says 5400k being the default. Well, it said 5400k before doing an auto W/B and it now says 5400k after but the image definetly changed. So what's happening here? How am I supposed to know what it white balanced to?

I'm guessing this is a flaw in the BM Camera Control protocol being only one way delivered commands, not being able to hear back from the camera what its state is. And if this is the case then I guess that makes any further manual changes to white balancing "relative" changes, just adjusting the camera higher or lower from its current state and the readout just being inaccurate? Let me know for any of you that use this system if my assumptions are correct as I have yet to view the camera side simultaneously to the ccu side for what the real camera readout is.

This lack of camera readout is especially frustrating too not only for white balance, but also ND status (of which the camera definitely does know, while not remote), and the cameras extender which the panel has a light for. Anyone know if there's any plans in the works to ever make these readouts active and accurate?
Mitchell Neth
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Ian Morrish

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostMon Sep 07, 2020 11:50 pm

Because the camera setting can't be read out of the camera, the panel can't update the display. The moment anyone opens the ATEM software control panel, the WB in the camera will be overwritten with the latest vale set with the panel, or the default 5700.

I have asked BMD if they can provide an option in the software control to tell the ATEM not to refresh the WB value. I have the same problem when using the ATEM API to set camera values. IP supports setting what camera parameters get refreshed to camera but the ATEM software control ignores this.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostWed Sep 09, 2020 10:20 am

This is the big problem with no return data. Atem is Always master. So basically the Atem always tells the Camera what to do.. The moment you hit Auto white balance it will tell the camera Auto..

But in my opinion it then should change the value in the readout not to display any value but just say AUTO
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Constelation 8K, Hyperdeck Studio 12G, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control
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martycg15

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 8:33 pm

Hello, saw this thread and was hoping one of you could help...

When I hold white balance on the camera control panel, it seems to balance the camera for a couple of seconds and then it goes back to what it was. I have the panel set to 'absolute' so it should be the only device giving commands. Why does it keep going back?

Also, does the ND feature work on this, that's not doing anything. I thought I read that would be enabled on a future update, not sure if that's come yet.

And finally, what do we need to hook up our wireless URSA Broadcast camera to the control panel. Thanks!
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Sander Vreuls

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostFri Mar 26, 2021 10:25 pm

When I hold white balance on the camera control panel, it seems to balance the camera for a couple of seconds and then it goes back to what it was. I have the panel set to 'absolute' so it should be the only device giving commands. Why does it keep going back?


Because there is no return data. So the panel has no clue what the correct white balance is, the correct white balance is an in-camera thing. What happens is:

You press the white balance button.
The camera white balances.
The panel sends the old white balance information to the camera because that is all it has.
The camera goes back to those settings.

All the camera panel/atem does is send info, without getting any feedback of what is actually going on in the camera head.
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martycg15

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 8:05 pm

Thank you.... so, it really serves no purpose? or is there no return data because I've got it connected wrong?

Is the best way to colour correct these cameras with a DSC colour chart and the wave/vectorscope or is there an automatic way to have the cameras/panel do it that will hold the setting. We can white balance the camera of course but once the panel is hooked into the system that overrides the cameras.
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LouisBacker

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 9:39 pm

MitchellNeth wrote:Anyone know if there's any plans in the works to ever make these readouts active and accurate?


Add this the long-outstanding issue of the CCU channel gain changing in +-6dB increments, whilst the Ursa Broadcast gain can change in +-2dB increments, which therefore you cannot remotely control. A bit pants really.
2 x Sony FX9, 4 x Ursa Broadcasts, ATEM CCU, ATEM TV Studio 4K. NewTek Tricaster TC1 and 460. ATEM Mini Pro ISO. BirdDog Quad 4K NDI.
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Kirill Ageev

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 7:14 pm

I wanted to share a little trick regarding quick white balance on BM cameras. You need to have an RGB oscilloscope like SmartView Duo.
The main disadvantage of these cameras is when you adjust R, G, or B gain, another two gains are automatically altered too, unlike on Sony/Panasonic/LDK cameras. So it really painful to adjust them separately.
The "color temp" knob adjusts only R-B balance. So I use the calibration chart and adjust the iris and color temperature manually using RCP until red and blue on white part are equal and close to 100%. Then I just remove green (minus green) until it equals the red and blue. That's it!
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Howard Roll

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostFri Apr 02, 2021 6:27 am

Kirill Ageev wrote:...is when you adjust R, G, or B gain, another two gains are automatically altered too...

Flip the luma mix slider from yrgb to rgb and the controls will behave predictably, the yrgb setting is based on Resolve's maths.

Good Luck
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostFri Apr 02, 2021 3:25 pm

But the Camera Control Panel is really due to an update!!!! It still runs the initial release firmware.. Nothing changed since they released this product which is a shame for a Company that want to go big in the Broadcast world....... :roll: :|

Got 2 of these panels sitting idle at the moment due to the following things>>>

That 6dB gain steps absolutely render these panels useless at the moment as you still need the software to set the gain now.. As 6dB was always way to big from the beginning..

Also the lack of range of the RGB knobs and not able to set the in and outpoint value of these knobs is really annoying.. While there are BIG oled screens with rotary knobs that absolutely DO NOTHING...

They rather would have made the RGB controls on rotary knobs so you could run them full swing like the Atem software does....

I hope they have been cooking on an update for the past several months and surprise us in a few weeks with a major update... But at this point i have no HOPE anymore for some fast software fixes.... :shock:
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Constelation 8K, Hyperdeck Studio 12G, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control
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martycg15

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostSat Apr 10, 2021 7:02 pm

I’m still banging my head with this, maybe I have to use the software. What is the best way people use to white balance their multi camera (ursa broadcast) set up? The camera control panel is hooked up. Also, how do you reset a channel? If I centre the knob for the red highlights for example how do I know the red-mid tones are also centred when the same knob controls two different tones? I only see one video tutorial on it and that hasn’t helped although it did explain the board well.

Thanks for any other tips.
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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostSat Apr 10, 2021 9:06 pm

I totally agree there's work to be done on the ATEM camera control panels. It seems that when you perform an automatic white balance on an URSA Mini, the camera sets both the color temperature and the tint. These two settings may relate to the I & Q settings from the old quadrature system color TV system. The color temperature & tint can be manually adjusted from the camera but the tint setting cannot be adjusted from the camera control panel or the ATEM switcher software DaVinci Resolve color corrector. As such, activating the white balance usually offsets the tint so you can no longer remotely tune in white balance if the lighting is changing, unless you're brave enough to adjust the RGB gain, lift, and gamma controls during a live production. As mentioned before, without the camera feedback to the camera control panel, they're going to fight one another throughout the show.

Currently, my workaround is to not select the automatic white balance button and to not change the tint setting, but to adjust the color temperature up and down buttons on the ATEM camera control panel against a fixed tint preset in the camera.
Using the arrowhead display on a Tektronix scope, I found that if I set the tint control on the Ursa Mini Broadcast to -1, I can change the color temperature control on the panels from 3150k for indoor light & 5150k for outdoor light and get a pretty repeatable white balance that seems to keep the cameras matching one another. These settings & the in-between temp settings can be stored in the scene presets of the panels. The settings for the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2 were somewhere around -8 for the tint and 3250K for indoor light & 5150K for exterior lighting. Your results may vary. During the broadcast, our camera shader can adjust the color temperature in the van and hopefully get 10 cameras to match through setting sun, then stadium lights, and finally mixed-in stage lights. Time will tell.
Not a great hack, but the best I could come up with until BMD comes up with a bi-directional serial communication system. Here's a feature request along these lines. If there's any bandwidth left in the camera to studio converter IP fiber link, it would be great to send a low-resolution video signal with the superimposed cinematographer's status display. That way, the camera could embed operational data, as well as the folks in the control room could see what's going on with cameras.
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David Hutchinson

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostSat Apr 10, 2021 10:00 pm

Another issue I'm having, and this could be operator error, is when I press the control knobs down the camera output does not appear on the preferred output channel. Yet when I touch a control in software I'd does change the monitor output.

What have I missed? Why doesn't the panel change the aux output?
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostMon Apr 12, 2021 9:56 am

@David, You have to set the Aux output used for the Panel also in the panel.. ;)

As multiple panels ( operators) can have different AUX ports assigned to there panel due to multiple shading locations with all there own monitor.

GO trough the menu of the Panel there is a Aux setting for this.



@Martin.. If only there was a button to reset your CCU control to default.. Oh wait.. :)
resetCCU.png
resetCCU.png (25.8 KiB) Viewed 860 times
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Constelation 8K, Hyperdeck Studio 12G, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control
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David Hutchinson

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostTue Apr 13, 2021 10:09 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:@David, You have to set the Aux output used for the Panel also in the panel.. ;)

As multiple panels ( operators) can have different AUX ports assigned to there panel due to multiple shading locations with all there own monitor.

THANK YOU :lol:
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martycg15

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostWed Apr 14, 2021 4:50 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:@Martin.. If only there was a button to reset your CCU control to default.. Oh wait.. :)
resetCCU.png


Thanks, but I'm using the Camera Control Panel hardware.... not the software, is there a reset channel on the actual device?
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostMon Apr 19, 2021 9:47 am

martycg15 wrote:
Xtreemtec wrote:@Martin.. If only there was a button to reset your CCU control to default.. Oh wait.. :)
resetCCU.png


Thanks, but I'm using the Camera Control Panel hardware.... not the software, is there a reset channel on the actual device?

There is not.. But you can always store it under 1 of the scene files.. :) Just hit reset on the Atem software. Store scene file for each channel on the hardware panel.. ( yes it will take the properties set in the Atem software.!! )

Then when you need to reset just recall that scene file and you are done ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Constelation 8K, Hyperdeck Studio 12G, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control
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martycg15

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostFri Apr 23, 2021 1:15 am

Sounds good, I'll give it a try, thanks!
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simon31

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 3:40 pm

We have seen the same problems and despite numerous bug return emails, still no firmware update since the panel was released, BMD us professional users really feel that you are laughing at us !! You spend all your energy on firmware update for ATEM Mini products at less 1000 €, when we buy atem constellation, ursa broadcast and camera fiber at several tens of thousands of euros without the updates of critical bugs arriving for more than a year! !

As send several times to support, please correct this bugs !!!

- the gains of the cameras no longer correspond to URSA since the update of the cameras !!!
There are steps 6/12/18 while the cameras have 2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16

- The shutter do not correspond between panel and ursa broadcast when set to 1/60 on the panel.

WE NEED TO ADJUST Clear scan value from the panel, (we can do manualy some times, when you pass 1/30 … 1/50, set to 1/60 on the panel and go to set the clear scan to 1/58 - 1/61 on each camera !!!) But sometimes, when we are on 1/60 on camera control panel, impossible to keep value to 1/58 on camera ; It’s very penalizing in live performance sport where you have to adjust it every time with screens in the field!

The clear scan must urgently be able to be adjusted from the software and hardware remotely


- saturation is not adjustable from the panel
- the Tint is not adjustable from the panel

Long press on with balance on camera control panel causes the tint change to -50 on the camera, and there is no way to reverse this, except asking the cameraman to reset it to 0 !!!! it's a real pain during a live broadcast !
Moreover as indicated in your sdk, the parameter of tint seems well established, it would be time to put these functions, with the saturation accessible from the rotary buttons of the camera control panel !!
I hope that a firmware will arrive, because there it really makes you want to abandon BMD for the cameras ....
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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 8:30 pm

And also rgb knobs are just to sensitive. We can not fine tune colours. I am tuning it in software instead. So why did I buy CC panel?
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ATEM Camera Control Panel - White Balance Trouble

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 7:27 am

The knobs are way to sensitive or just not enough for some setups.

Would have liked that they used encoders instead of potentiometers.
That would made so much difference. ( like grassvalley, Sony and Panasonic did )
They would be able to fix it to let you select a range like start and end point of adjustment onto the oleds.
And they even have encoders underneath that 14 out of 16 do nothing :( if only they would implement some way of control on those instead.

But seems the broadcast market is not something they are after anymore. As there are no updates on this, no updates on the constellation which is the mixer that the broadcast world need. But that final 10% to get it right isn’t just there.

I blame COVID for messing up big time in the bmd timeline. But a few software updates are really overdue even before the COVID came around.
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Constelation 8K, Hyperdeck Studio 12G, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control

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