GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

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Florent Piovesan

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GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostWed Apr 21, 2021 12:56 pm

Hey guys,

This may be a dumb question, but is there a way to get Gen 4 on the BMPCC6K Pro?

I just received mine and after shooting a bit I much prefer the look of Gen 4 on my regular 6k compared to Gen 5 on the Pro.

I know I can shoot BRAW and revert but I shoot ProRes 99% of the time.

Cheers,
Flo
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Robert Niessner

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostWed Apr 21, 2021 2:42 pm

I think that won't be possible, because in another thread I asked Hook if they could make the color gen select-able and he said that doesn't work unfortunately.

In theory what you could do for ProRes would be to create a Gen 5 to Gen 4 conversion LUT and bake it in with the ProRes recording - but then you would lose the ability to use a viewing LUT in the camera.

What is it exactly you do not like about Gen 5?

If you could shoot a color chart and some real world footage (fire, skin, greenery, sky scapes, city scapes) with both cameras (same exposure, ISO and custom WB done to a grey card) I think I could create a reverse LUT.
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Florent Piovesan

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostWed Apr 21, 2021 3:31 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:I think that won't be possible, because in another thread I asked Hook if they could make the color gen select-able and he said that doesn't work unfortunately.

In theory what you could do for ProRes would be to create a Gen 5 to Gen 4 conversion LUT and bake it in with the ProRes recording - but then you would lose the ability to use a viewing LUT in the camera.

What is it exactly you do not like about Gen 5?

If you could shoot a color chart and some real world footage (fire, skin, greenery, sky scapes, city scapes) with both cameras (same exposure, ISO and custom WB done to a grey card) I think I could create a reverse LUT.


I see, thanks for your answer man. I might try to do that.

I am just not a big fan of the look. I know it is cleaner and flatter but I have been shooting for years on Gen 4 and just love the image and colour.
To me Gen 5 seems more clinical and has less character. Over the past few days I have done a some tests with both cameras on the same settings and lenses and the difference it more important than I thought it would be.
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CaptainHook

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 12:38 am

For BMDFilm the gamut is the same (and in camera gamut compression is always applied with Gen 5 which would be relevant for ProRes and monitoring), only the gamma curve differs but when using a technical transform/LUT to a fixed known colour space it would not make any difference to the image.

BMDFilm is an intermediate space and while it may impact decisions/ease of use for manual grading in a properly managed workflow it would be transparent.

"Cleaner / clinical / character" are not relevant terms for an intermediate gamma curve which is really the big difference between Gen 4/5.

Some example braw frames and exported jpegs of your workflow from your tests would be helpful to understand what you mean.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 6:19 am

Any chance Gen 5 for CDNG?
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 6:36 am

WahWay wrote:Any chance Gen 5 for CDNG?

Never give up, never surrender ;)
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 6:53 am

Robert Niessner wrote:
WahWay wrote:Any chance Gen 5 for CDNG?

Never give up, never surrender ;)


Micro Cinema and Micro Studio cameras are still current. Makes life easier to be able to colour match CDNG Gen5 files with Braw Gen5.
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Florent Piovesan

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm

CaptainHook wrote:For BMDFilm the gamut is the same (and in camera gamut compression is always applied with Gen 5 which would be relevant for ProRes and monitoring), only the gamma curve differs but when using a technical transform/LUT to a fixed known colour space it would not make any difference to the image.

BMDFilm is an intermediate space and while it may impact decisions/ease of use for manual grading in a properly managed workflow it would be transparent.

"Cleaner / clinical / character" are not relevant terms for an intermediate gamma curve which is really the big difference between Gen 4/5.

Some example braw frames and exported jpegs of your workflow from your tests would be helpful to understand what you mean.


Hey man,

Definitely not bashing the camera, I was super excited for this one!

I have been shooting with blackmagic cameras since 2013 so I am pretty used the way the footage looks so I was surprised.
(I have owned the original BMPCC, BMPCC 4K, Ursa Mini pro, BMPCC 6K and now the Pro.)

Specs are one thing of course and for someone that has been working with blackmagic footage on a dalily basis for more than 7 years I can say that it is also about feeling and yes character. So it kinda is relevant to me.

These frames were taken with the same lenses, same settings at the very same time and it’s not just about gamma. Log, straight from camera.
It looks like a different camera or sensor to me in some cases.

I do a lot of outdoor shooting being a documentary filmmaker and there is clearly a huge difference.
I also do not shoot raw since my deliverables are prores 99% of the time.

Really want to be able to use/grade the Pro footage as much as my current 6K which I absolutely love :).

Cheers,
Flo

Gen 4 Gen 5 - Example 2_1.jpg
Gen 4 Gen 5 - Example 2_1.jpg (904.3 KiB) Viewed 2262 times
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Robert Niessner

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 5:57 pm

And same ND?
And made same white balance to the same gray card? Because if you just used the daylight WB preset on both - then the comparison would be worthless.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 6:21 pm

Florent Piovesan wrote:I do a lot of outdoor shooting being a documentary filmmaker and there is clearly a huge difference.


On its face, this claim is a strange one, since there's no way to assess log for either accuracy or aesthetics. Neither image above (I'm assuming both are non-normalized log) is "correct". It's true that Gen5 footage requires more adjustment after it's been normalized, it's flatter/lower contrast than gen4 -- which is apparently the cost of its other advantages.

But once you're accustomed to what's required, it shouldn't be difficult to achieve exactly the same results. You're saying you can't?
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Florent Piovesan

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 8:34 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:And same ND?
And made same white balance to the same gray card? Because if you just used the daylight WB preset on both - then the comparison would be worthless.


Haha I am not going to grey card every single clip when I'm out shooting. I am also not in the business of doing scientific tests for these cameras, I just shoot with them for a living.

I was just asking if there is a way to revert back to Gen 4 since to me there is a clear difference and I have been with blackmagic cameras for years and got surprised by the difference that's all.
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Florent Piovesan

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 8:38 pm

John Paines wrote:
Florent Piovesan wrote:I do a lot of outdoor shooting being a documentary filmmaker and there is clearly a huge difference.


On its face, this claim is a strange one, since there's no way to assess log for either accuracy or aesthetics. Neither image above (I'm assuming both are non-normalized log) is "correct". It's true that Gen5 footage requires more adjustment after it's been normalized, it's flatter/lower contrast than gen4 -- which is apparently the cost of its other advantages.

But once you're accustomed to what's required, it shouldn't be difficult to achieve exactly the same results. You're saying you can't?


I am sure it would be possible to match the two and get close, I just find it very hard to get to the same look that I have across my body of work. I think if it was just a matter of contrast a curve could fix it but it seems to be more than that.
I was more asking about reverting to Gen 4 since to my eye and my work Gen 5 doesn't look as pleasing, before or after grading.
I often shoot with Canon cine cameras and am used to match and this Gen 5 looks like it came from a different cam than Blackmagic and I find myself feeling that I am trying to colour match rather than grade.
Gen 5 is not bad, just different :).
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Robert Niessner

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 11:17 pm

Florent Piovesan wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:And same ND?
And made same white balance to the same gray card? Because if you just used the daylight WB preset on both - then the comparison would be worthless.


Haha I am not going to grey card every single clip when I'm out shooting. I am also not in the business of doing scientific tests for these cameras, I just shoot with them for a living.

I was just asking if there is a way to revert back to Gen 4 since to me there is a clear difference and I have been with blackmagic cameras for years and got surprised by the difference that's all.


Well, if you want me to create a reversal LUT, than this is exactly what I need.
And I pointed out that you can’t rely on the WB presets as they will differ from camera to camera.

When you are trying to compare those images, than you first have to make sure that those things have been matched as close as possible.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 11:46 pm

CaptainHook wrote:For BMDFilm the gamut is the same (and in camera gamut compression is always applied with Gen 5 which would be relevant for ProRes and monitoring),
Because many of the 3D LUTs I've made already include gamut compression designed for the full uncompressed BMD gamut, it would be really useful to have the option to turn off the gamut compression in camera. Perhaps a little toggle in the menu right next to the "embed 3D LUT" toggle?
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 22, 2021 11:57 pm

Florent Piovesan wrote:These frames were taken with the same lenses, same settings at the very same time and it’s not just about gamma. Log, straight from camera.

Can you post the camera original footage as well? The exported jpgs are only useful to compare against the original footage to reproduce what you are seeing. If you shot braw you can just export a single frame from the RAW tab, but if you shot ProRes unfortunately will need the full original files.

Robert does make a valid point about wb and I didn't see you answer his question about ND? Ideally if you are trying to compare two different cameras you want to match wb (not by the numbers) but if your concern is really just about Gen 4 / 5 the better way to compare is to take a quick 10 sec shot in braw on one camera then compare by changing the decode settings. Then wb/nd differences etc will be less of a factor in the comparison and it will really just be the difference in colour science versions. And if you have gamut compression toggled the same for both (either on or off) then the only difference is the gamma curve in BMDFilm.

@Robert - Gen 5 support in the CST plugin (and RCM) should be in an upcoming release of Resolve 17.2 (unless something changes) so I wouldn't bother trying to manually create a transform for now, hopefully not too much longer before people can quickly combine the transforms/LUTs in Resolve and export a LUT from there.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostFri Apr 23, 2021 12:02 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:Because many of the 3D LUTs I've made already include gamut compression designed for the full uncompressed BMD gamut, it would be really useful to have the option to turn off the gamut compression in camera. Perhaps a little toggle in the menu right next to the "embed 3D LUT" toggle?

Its already being considered but as always can't confirm either way if it will happen or not.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostFri Apr 23, 2021 1:20 pm

CaptainHook wrote: Its already being considered but as always can't confirm either way if it will happen or not.
Thanks. Very glad to hear that it's under consideration.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 3:20 pm

Florent, you can test my new LUTs here:

LBK neutral High-Desat v10 for Gen 4:
LBK_neutral_High-desat-Gen4_v10_33.zip
(358.31 KiB) Downloaded 45 times


LBK neutral High-Desat v2 for Gen 5:
LBK_neutral_High-desat-Gen5_v2_33.zip
(363.97 KiB) Downloaded 79 times


Variant of the above LUTs maybe better suited for landscapes (not fully tested - might have unwanted side effects):

LBK Natural High-Desat v1 for Gen 4 & Gen 5:
LBK_Gen4+5_Natural_High-desat_v1_33.zip
(613.58 KiB) Downloaded 48 times
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 3:53 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Florent, you can test my new LUTs here:

LBK neutral High-Desat v10 for Gen 4:
LBK_neutral_High-desat-Gen4_v10_33.zip


LBK neutral High-Desat v2 for Gen 5:
LBK_neutral_High-desat-Gen5_v2_33.zip


Variant of the above LUTs maybe better suited for landscapes (not fully tested - might have unwanted side effects):

LBK Natural High-Desat v1 for Gen 4 & Gen 5:
LBK_Gen4+5_Natural_High-desat_v1_33.zip


Thanks for these mates I will give them a go asap :) !!
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 4:06 pm

Might add - those are NOT reversal LUTs - just normalizing LUTs for a pleasant preview and should show similar results on Gen 4 and Gen 5.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostTue Apr 27, 2021 7:57 pm

I'm trying to wrap my head around this issue as well since at first glance I experienced what Florent did and was not that excited about the Gen 5 look.

Can someone clarify to me if there is any difference to the log image if you shoot with firmware 7.3 or prior firmware? So in essence when you take the footage to NLE is the starting point with the LOG footage the same for both Gen 4 and 5?

Where can I download the Gen 5 LUT that is found on the 7.3 firmware so that I can apply it to clips in Premiere Pro?
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostTue Apr 27, 2021 8:08 pm

No, the starting point is different.

However, you can still decode footage shot with 7.3 as Gen 4. This is an option that's selectable in the RAW controls, so I would assume the premiere plugin would have something similar
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostTue Apr 27, 2021 8:41 pm

smunaut wrote:No, the starting point is different.

However, you can still decode footage shot with 7.3 as Gen 4. This is an option that's selectable in the RAW controls, so I would assume the premiere plugin would have something similar


Excellent, thanks for the info! I'm in the middle of a two year doc shoot so I'll revert back to previous firmware for simplicity.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostTue Apr 27, 2021 9:04 pm

Unless the Gen4 material is pushing the limits of the gamut, as with taillights or stage LEDs, I don't believe you'll lose anything by staying with Gen4, and may also have an easier time grading the material.

Whenever there's a new release, somebody is sure to insist that it's vast qualitative improvement, but BMD has never, AFAIK, made that claim for Gen5. I think it's more of a corrective for certain conditions, rather than advance of the color science generally.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostWed Apr 28, 2021 5:48 am

Gamut compression (which addresses strong saturated monochromatic light sources like LEDs) is available for both Gen 4 / 5 in the Blackmagic RAW tab. Again, the difference is the gamma curve.

If you mix cameras or use more than one ISO setting often, then Gen 4 is likely slower to grade with as the amount of contrast will change per ISO, and will be different again on a different BMD camera. Gen 5 is the same log curve/contrast for every ISO/camera which will speed up most manual based workflows since copying grades will require less tweaking, and a single LUT/transform can be used for all ISOs across all cameras. To accomodate this the curve is much flatter as it needs to be able to handle a wide dynamic range (it can handle ~10.3 stops over middle grey).
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostWed Apr 28, 2021 10:02 am

Great explanation there Hook, an easy way to experience this is switching from 1000 iso to 1250 on a pocket, Gen 4 would abruptly jump in contrast between the two native iso bands as it switched gamma curves.

Now it's nice and smooth, contrast remains the same, giving you get a clearer idea of how noise and dynamic range changes between the bands. Coupled with the screen white balance adjustment it feels like my P4k has a new lease on life. :D
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostWed Apr 28, 2021 12:04 pm

Florent Piovesan wrote:
I do a lot of outdoor shooting being a documentary filmmaker and there is clearly a huge difference.
I also do not shoot raw since my deliverables are prores 99% of the time.

I find this a weird statement unless you mean that you deliver your footage files directly from the camera and not edited material. If you process it yourself before delivery there's nothing stopping you from shooting in .braw and get the flexibility of setting all sources on gen4 or gen5 whatever you'd prefer. Fixing white balance in post because you had to shoot fast would also be a lot cleaner compared to ProRes.
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GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostWed Apr 28, 2021 1:44 pm

CaptainHook wrote:… a single LUT/transform can be used for all ISOs across all cameras. To accomodate this the curve is much flatter as it needs to be able to handle a wide dynamic range (it can handle ~10.3 stops over middle grey).


Two sweet benefits of moving to Gen 5 in camera at least for your next project (and the latest Resolve 17.) I also like the improvement to shooting with Dynamic Range Video; used to have to play it safe shooting Extended Video or Film. Those are still very good options, but Video now looks to be a very useful starting point if final deliverables are Rec.709.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostWed Apr 28, 2021 8:03 pm

CaptainHook wrote:Gamut compression (which addresses strong saturated monochromatic light sources like LEDs) is available for both Gen 4 / 5 in the Blackmagic RAW tab. Again, the difference is the gamma curve.

If you mix cameras or use more than one ISO setting often, then Gen 4 is likely slower to grade with as the amount of contrast will change per ISO, and will be different again on a different BMD camera. Gen 5 is the same log curve/contrast for every ISO/camera which will speed up most manual based workflows since copying grades will require less tweaking, and a single LUT/transform can be used for all ISOs across all cameras. To accomodate this the curve is much flatter as it needs to be able to handle a wide dynamic range (it can handle ~10.3 stops over middle grey).


I would love to see a video tutorial explaining the workflow from camera to NLE with all the differences with Gen 4 and 5 in detail and how to mix and match the footage. :)
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostWed Apr 28, 2021 9:50 pm

Sami Sanpakkila wrote: I would love to see a video tutorial explaining the workflow from camera to NLE with all the differences with Gen 4 and 5 in detail and how to mix and match the footage. :)
For those who are recording BRAW, there's no "mixing + matching" to do in post. Simply set the color Gen to match in the raw tab of Resolve on all the clips in working if unmanaged YRGB mode in Resolve or other NLE, or just work in ACES or RCM and there's nothing to manage separately.
For those shooting in ProRes, they'll have to wait until Resolve adds the transform for Gen5 to RCM, ACES, and the Color Space Transform OFX.
Last edited by Jamie LeJeune on Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 29, 2021 12:47 am

rick.lang wrote:I also like the improvement to shooting with Dynamic Range Video; used to have to play it safe shooting Extended Video or Film. Those are still very good options, but Video now looks to be a very useful starting point if final deliverables are Rec.709.

I was speaking just of changes to BMD Film since the discussion was about the starting point for grading, but yes BMD Video and Extended Video are both improved in Gen 5 as well, BMD Video significantly so. Good point and worth mentioning as well in regards to Gen 4/5 differences.
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 29, 2021 6:57 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
Sami Sanpakkila wrote: I would love to see a video tutorial explaining the workflow from camera to NLE with all the differences with Gen 4 and 5 in detail and how to mix and match the footage. :)
For those who are recording BRAW, there's no "mixing + matching" to do in post. Simply set the color Gen to match in the raw tab of Resolve on all the clips in working in unmanaged YRGB mode in Resolve or other NLE, or just work in ACES or RCM and there's nothing to manage separately.
For those shooting in ProRes, they'll have to wait until Resolve adds the transform for Gen5 to RCM, ACES, and the Color Space Transform OFX.


I work in Premiere Pro and I'm using a Gen 4 LUT on an adjustment layer because the BRAW management is very buggy on my system. If I make any adjustments to the BRAW settings on the master clip level it often leads to crashes (but that's for another topic).

That is why I've inquired if there is a LUT to download for Gen 5 to keep my workflow but haven't had a response yet from anyone?
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 29, 2021 8:51 am

You can get Gen 5 LUTs from Resolves LUT folder (or export them from camera if you have one with Gen 5 on it).
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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostThu Apr 29, 2021 5:54 pm

Sami Sanpakkila wrote:That is why I've inquired if there is a LUT to download for Gen 5 to keep my workflow but haven't had a response yet from anyone?


Seems you missed my posting above:
viewtopic.php?p=754352#p754352
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Sami Sanpakkila

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 8:51 am

Robert Niessner wrote:
Sami Sanpakkila wrote:That is why I've inquired if there is a LUT to download for Gen 5 to keep my workflow but haven't had a response yet from anyone?


Seems you missed my posting above:
viewtopic.php?p=754352#p754352


Sorry I should've specified I was looking for the BM official LUT's. But I will give these a go as well! Found the official LUT in the Resolve LUT folder! :)

Thank you!
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Bromine 18

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 10:22 am

CaptainHook wrote:. . .in camera gamut compression is always applied with Gen 5. . .BMDFilm is an intermediate space. . .

This is interesting and I’d like to know more in depth if I can be pointed in the right direction, or if a brief explanation is given, it would be really appreciated.

I was under the impression that Blackmagic Design colour space is interchangeable with BMD Film gamut, and when shooting on Pocket 4K in BRAW with Film Dynamic Range, the camera – as stated in the manual – “shoots video using a log curve that allows you to maintain the greatest dynamic range”.

So, the Gen 5 log (or gamma) curve is better than that of Gen 4, but the captured colour space – Pocket 4K Film Dynamic Range, for instance – is a compressed version of the Blackmagic Design Colour Space? If so, how do the two colour spaces compare with each other and the rest of the common in-camera and post-production colour spaces such as Arri’s, ACES, and Rec. 709?

I’ve been looking for the chromaticity diagram with the primaries of Blackmagic Design colour space, but haven’t found one so far. If there’s one with BMD wide gamut and BMD Film primaries, it would be illuminating.

And if the in-camera Film Dynamic Range is a compressed version of the Blackmagic Design gamut, then I’d second Jamie – an option to choose uncompressed BMD colour space in camera would be really valuable.
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Howard Roll

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 1:52 pm

Bromine 18 wrote:I’ve been looking for the chromaticity diagram with the primaries of Blackmagic Design colour space, but haven’t found one so far. If there’s one with BMD wide gamut and BMD Film primaries, it would be illuminating.


They're in Resolve, there's the white paper, and Hook goes into detail about G5 in a sticky four posts from the top of this forum. One can cycle through the various spaces on the CIE scope and find the WP and primaries for the CS iterations.

https://documents.blackmagicdesign.com/ ... 7414410000

Good Luck

primaries.png
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Bromine 18

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 10:33 pm

Much appreciated, Howard.

Posting it here, as I understand it, so that someone who enters the relevant search terms may be able to find it as well:
1. DaVinci Wide Gamut is a timeline colour space, and by extension DaVinci Intermediate is a gamma for colour management – both are usable only for post-production.
2. Blackmagic Design Wide Gamut Gen 4/Gen 5 and Pocket 4K Film Gen 4/Gen 5 are interchangeable.
3. At least since the Pocket 4K, BMD cameras tend to use the same colour space/gamut, but the “gammas are currently all specific to each camera as the log curves are specially tailored to the response of each camera/sensor” as Hook has mentioned in another thread (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87576)
4. Gamut compression only tackles “strong saturated monochromatic light sources like LEDs” and in-camera gamut compression is always applied with Gen 5.
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Florent Piovesan

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Re: GEN 4 on the 6K PRO

PostWed May 26, 2021 3:54 pm

shebbe wrote:
Florent Piovesan wrote:
I do a lot of outdoor shooting being a documentary filmmaker and there is clearly a huge difference.
I also do not shoot raw since my deliverables are prores 99% of the time.

I find this a weird statement unless you mean that you deliver your footage files directly from the camera and not edited material. If you process it yourself before delivery there's nothing stopping you from shooting in .braw and get the flexibility of setting all sources on gen4 or gen5 whatever you'd prefer. Fixing white balance in post because you had to shoot fast would also be a lot cleaner compared to ProRes.



I do deliver footage straight from camera a lot since I do licensing. UHD ProRes 422 is the standard for what I do.
Yes. if shooting RAW reverting back to Gen 4 works very well. Only issue for me is that 4K (dci) raw has a crop and then I need to shoot 6K which means more processing power. I work 90% of the time with UHD Prores as deliverables so makes it tricky.
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