Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

Do you have questions about Desktop Video, Converters, Routers and Monitoring?
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

Marc Wielage

  • Posts: 7629
  • Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:46 am
  • Location: Hollywood, USA

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostTue Jun 15, 2021 6:14 am

JonPais wrote:So it's not a fact - thanks for the clarification.

No, in general, everything I say here is just an opinion. If I quote from the manual, it's a fact "according to Blackmagic."

Hendrik Proosa wrote:Let me put it this way: reference monitor is not used for convincing (most) clients. It is used for convincing yourself. For clients, ”reference” doesn’t mean the same thing in a lot of cases. For them, their ”reference ground truth” can easily be the iPhone screen. There are just two ways around it as far as I can see: a) educate the client or b) give them what they think they want without steering too far off the cliff.

Noted calibration expert Steve Shaw gives a good explanation at this link on "Why Should We Master on a Calibrated Display" at this link:

https://www.lightillusion.com/grading_displays.html

Also, read page 2515 of the Resolve 17 manual, "Limitations When Grading With the Viewer on a Computer Display." This goes into detail in explaining why if you need to see accurate color, you really need a color-managed output with a Blackmagic display device, plus a calibrated display. Without that, you can be lead down a perilous road of pain and suffering. This has been a challenge in post for at least 42 years that I know of (and actually more than that).

It also explains why trying to judge grades in something like an iPhone is a bad idea. And that's according to Blackmagic and everybody I know in post-production.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
Offline

Hendrik Proosa

  • Posts: 1870
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:53 am
  • Location: Estonia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostTue Jun 15, 2021 10:59 am

Marc, do you actually read what people write or just blindly copy-paste your stored paragraphs? You don't have to convince me here, you have to convince the client (as I wrote) and educate them (as I wrote) or give them what they think they want if they really insist (as I wrote) because their thought of reference does not align with industry standard (as I wrote).
I do stuff.
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 251
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostTue Jun 15, 2021 12:48 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:
JonPais wrote:So it's not a fact - thanks for the clarification.

No, in general, everything I say here is just an opinion. If I quote from the manual, it's a fact "according to Blackmagic."

Hendrik Proosa wrote:Let me put it this way: reference monitor is not used for convincing (most) clients. It is used for convincing yourself. For clients, ”reference” doesn’t mean the same thing in a lot of cases. For them, their ”reference ground truth” can easily be the iPhone screen. There are just two ways around it as far as I can see: a) educate the client or b) give them what they think they want without steering too far off the cliff.

Noted calibration expert Steve Shaw gives a good explanation at this link on "Why Should We Master on a Calibrated Display" at this link:

https://www.lightillusion.com/grading_displays.html

Also, read page 2515 of the Resolve 17 manual, "Limitations When Grading With the Viewer on a Computer Display." This goes into detail in explaining why if you need to see accurate color, you really need a color-managed output with a Blackmagic display device, plus a calibrated display. Without that, you can be lead down a perilous road of pain and suffering. This has been a challenge in post for at least 42 years that I know of (and actually more than that).

It also explains why trying to judge grades in something like an iPhone is a bad idea. And that's according to Blackmagic and everybody I know in post-production.
The DaVinci Resolve user manual spelling out the limitations of grading with the viewer on a computer display and Steve Shaw's article cautioning against using anything but a calibrated reference monitor for grading are addressed to the colorist. Neither the DaVinci Resolve user manual nor the Light Illusion webpage prohibit the client from viewing the project on a tablet, smartphone or consumer television to judge how the finished work will appear to their prospective audience, who presumably will not be watching on a $30,000 1,000 nit professional reference monitor in a plush grading suite in LA.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 10981
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostTue Jun 15, 2021 4:14 pm

The latter is probably true for the clients of 99% of recent users of DR, yes. If they have clients at all.
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
Resolve Studio 17.2.2 and Fusion Studio 17.2.1, macOS 11.5
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM, 32 GB, eGFX Breakway RX 580
Mac mini M1, 16 GB RAM
Offline

rNeil H

  • Posts: 87
  • Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:43 pm
  • Real Name: R. Neil Haugen

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostTue Jun 15, 2021 8:09 pm

There is a reason one grades pro material on a calibrated reference monitor. Simply put, it "centers the image no matter what screen it is eventually viewed on.

I have heard TONS of comments from colorists that the client demanded they change the grade because of viewing it on their screen or device. So the colorist complied.

After delivering the piece, the client then complained that either 1) it didn't pass QC or 2) they got tons of complaints it didn't look right.

Because, relatively to other pro materials on that device, it was different. Exactly predicted by the change the colorist made on demand of the client.

You have to accept that if you leave the standard, in any direction, you are then "more off" on at least as many screens as you might be "more on".

Covid didn't change that reality.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 7552
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am
  • Location: Poland

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostTue Jun 15, 2021 10:21 pm

Exactly, but if you know that iPads are by default quite close to Rec.709 or P3 (by far way closer than any typical crap PC monitor) then in 90% cases of current Resolve users it's simply good enough and you are not drifting that much.
Keep 30K$ reference screen for Technicolor, which uses tons of LG OLEDs for reviews as well :D
Don't forget that smaller screens are way easier to be made and hit standards.

If clients are happy what they sees on their iPad (regardless of what you graded it on) then it's all good.
Problems start when they are not happy :)
As I said before- we are already at the time when projects graded on Dolby get adjusted only because client did not like how they looked on iPad (or more terrifying case- on crappy YouTube preview).

Resolve's mentioned page is nothing more than "a reminder" of common sense, which every Resolve users should already know when he starts using it.

And funniest bit is that no one can see what "others" see (and there is no way to validate it?), so it's all relying on probe measure (which is just some sensor tech) which may not translate so well to everyones own "viewing capabilities".
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 10981
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostWed Jun 16, 2021 12:53 am

AFAIK, about 9% of males are at least partially color blind…
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
Resolve Studio 17.2.2 and Fusion Studio 17.2.1, macOS 11.5
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM, 32 GB, eGFX Breakway RX 580
Mac mini M1, 16 GB RAM
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 251
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostWed Jun 16, 2021 1:18 am

rNeil H wrote:There is a reason one grades pro material on a calibrated reference monitor. Simply put, it "centers the image no matter what screen it is eventually viewed on.

I have heard TONS of comments from colorists that the client demanded they change the grade because of viewing it on their screen or device. So the colorist complied.

After delivering the piece, the client then complained that either 1) it didn't pass QC or 2) they got tons of complaints it didn't look right.

Because, relatively to other pro materials on that device, it was different. Exactly predicted by the change the colorist made on demand of the client.

You have to accept that if you leave the standard, in any direction, you are then "more off" on at least as many screens as you might be "more on".

Covid didn't change that reality.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Interesting, since Dave Hussey's clients review work on Apple mobile devices, and he makes no mention of tons of complaints.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Offline

rNeil H

  • Posts: 87
  • Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:43 pm
  • Real Name: R. Neil Haugen

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostWed Jun 16, 2021 1:27 am

Didn't say you couldn't. Responding to a comment up the line that scoffed at using a calibrated screen. That might just have issues is my point.

I know several colorists who have a stack of specific iPads all set for best color.

If you can't go into their suite they send you one or more as you may need. And their contract requires all changes/comments to be based on viewing those screens only.

Pretty darn close. Better than anything the client probably has. They feel it's the best option if you can't get client in-suite.

Sounds sensible. But just any even Apple device? Not so sure about that.

But everyone's mileage always varies.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 10981
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostWed Jun 16, 2021 1:34 am

Not any Apple device for sure. An iMac e.g. needs calibration.
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
Resolve Studio 17.2.2 and Fusion Studio 17.2.1, macOS 11.5
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM, 32 GB, eGFX Breakway RX 580
Mac mini M1, 16 GB RAM
Offline

JonPais

  • Posts: 251
  • Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 am
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Should clients review remote grades on the iphone?

PostWed Jun 16, 2021 12:45 pm

PostPerspective's Randi Altman asks Asa Shoul, colorist of Netflix's The Crown, how the remote collaboration worked, to which he replies, "I’d complete a first pass of each episode on my own, in HDR, then complete a Dolby analysis and trim pass to SDR (at present, Clearview is only SDR). Then I’d do a first day with the clients, with them viewing on iPad Pros with specific settings and the Clearview app". And the workflow for practically every single show I've followed has used a similar procedure, with the clients viewing dailies on iPad Pros. And these are multi-million dollar productions, like Mindhunter. Of course, each production is free to use its own dailies platform and app. Remote collaborations are here to stay.
https://daejeonchronicles.com
Previous

Return to Post Production

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Feedfetcher and 7 guests