iPhone 13 Pro & Max - ProRes 10bit/422 now available

Hi All
Sooooo interesting! Although I use a BMPCC 4k to film for work... Filmic Pro just introduced 4 flavors of PRORES 10bit/422 to the iPhone 13 Pro line. QUESTION: What color settings should I use?

The MediaInfo is:

Code: Select all

Format profile                           : 422 HQ ( I also tried LT and Proxy)
Codec ID                                 : apch
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : [b]759 Mb/s[/b] (CRAZY!)
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2  (It is 10bit)
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 3.051
Stream size                              : 567 MiB (100%)
Title                                    : Core Media Video
Writing library                          : Apple
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-10-04 23:31:00
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-10-04 23:31:06
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

And only a USB 2.0 connection, 480 mb/s, connection (lightning) to download it. So 30 minutes to download a 15 minute clip off the phone.

Call me back when it gets USB-C like a real phone.

Seconded.

I wonder if wi-fi transfer is much faster than Lightning. In theory it should be.

I wonder if wi-fi transfer is much faster than Lightning. In theory it should be.

It's actually pretty fast, yes.

Problem solved.

Measurements?

I don't know, I mean, it's still a micro sensor with zero dynamic range and everything is computational...everything.

Thank you for the thoughts etc.
Yes. Slow transfers.
Yes. Small sensor... Professionally I use BMPCC4k and Sony gear. This question is for when I am out and about or on vacation or with family and use my phone for recording.

My question is what Color settings do I use for ProRes Project color management? DWG? other?

Lightning is abysmally slow, but there are ways around that. They're not that obvious, but I'm used a similar approach during travels since January 2019 - with a "slight" pause from early 2020 to 202, due to... ah, well...

My current iPhone 12 Pro is capable of recording approx. 135-150 megabit/sec, 10 bit h265 in FiLMiC Pro. Even this poses transfer problems for longer recording sessions via cable (on a good day up to 30 megabyte/sec on videos).

Instead I set my old Samsung Galaxy Note 10+ (512GB) into Hotspot mode, start the FE File Explorer App and then activate the FTP server in the App. I connect my iPhone to the Samsung Hotspot (no Internet or Cell communication is involved) and via the iOS version of the FE File Explorer I transfer roughly 65-70 megabyte/sec to the Samsung (the smartphone in effect becoming my walkabout backup storage akin to a Gnarbox on steroids).

When reaching the hotel, the Samsung can connect to a standard USB-C powered hub, connected to SSD's and/or HDD's, gigabit network (up to 115 megabyte/sec) and i.e. HDMI (good for the eyes in a hotel hookup). Charging at the same time. Backup from the Samsung to a good external SSD delivers 250-275 megabyte/sec read/write speed for videos.

That way, I have at least three generations of recordings within a day, and the iPhone can "backup" wirelessly to my Samsung in my other inner pocket, while enjoying life, a good meal or in transport etc. A solid powerbank is seldom required, but it happens.

This setup will probably also work with the iPhone 13 Pro delivering around the same performance to my Samsung (now on Android 11 - born with Android 9 late 2019).

At home, the iPhone delivers 70-80 megabyte/sec over my WiFi 6 network and the Samsung up to 95-105 megabyte/sec on the same WiFi network. Both targeting my NAS (the Samsung with automatic sync to NAS).

Since the Samsung delivers around 285 megabit/sec (up to 2268p 16:9) in 10 bit 265h - also in FiLMiC Pro - I do not really feel the need for a new iPhone without USB-C and without Touch-ID (the latter has benefits, when you're forced to wearing a mask). My iPhone also has to be in portrait orientation in order for Face-ID to work. How quaint! Not the most usable trait, when recording 16:9 landscape video or taking snaps

If you have access to a relatively new and verified fast Android smartphone, the iPhone can be usable

Beware: Some flagship Android smartphone manufacturers also limit their USB-C connection to USB-2 speeds. Yes, they're.... #!§$&%!!! Just as bad as Apple!

Have fun with your Android supported iPhone 13

Since the iPhone 13, which will record ProRes, has been released, it has been criticized a lot for the low speed of the lightning port to download the huge video files that are going to be created.

It has come to my attention that no one is talking about a simple solution which is the Apple accessory called "lightning to usb3 adapter for cameras" that I think would fix the problem.

I do not have the iPhone 13 but I do have a second generation iPad Pro and with it I tested that adapter and it actually works at USB3 speed when recording on external disk drives.

And only a USB 2.0 connection, 480 mb/s, connection (lightning) to download it. So 30 minutes to download a 15 minute clip off the phone.

Call me back when it gets USB-C like a real phone.

Lightning supports USB-3 speeds. It's the stock Lightning Cable that is limited to USB 2.0

The Stock Cables on many Android phones with USB-C ports are USB 2.0 rated, as well. My Note 9 has USB-C, but in order to get USB 3.0 speeds, I have to use a third party cable. The stock Samsung Cable is USB 2.0, so I bought a Samsung USB 3.0 C-to-C cable for it

I'm not sure if this has changed, but shipping USB-C 2.0 cables with phones that has USB-C ports has been fairly "industry standard." It's an easy way to cut costs.

TL;DR: You're wrong. Data speeds aren't just about the port. The cable has to be rated for those speeds, and Apple isn't really doing anything "out of the ordinary" by packaging a USB 2 rated cable with their devices.

Love how everyone else jumped on that bandwagon, though.

USB 3.0 on iPhones is wishful thinking. Even Apple says so for the products in the compatibility section.

Don't dream, wish or hope, when the facts are clearly visible and ready at hand, if you care to look.

Here's what apple writes for the Lightning to SD Card Camera Reader:

The Lightning to SD Card Camera Reader supports standard photo formats, including JPEG and RAW, along with SD and HD video formats, including H.264 and MPEG-4. It supports data transfer at up to USB 3 speeds on the 12.9-inch iPad Pro (1st and 2nd generation) and 10.5-inch iPad Pro, and up to USB 2 speeds on the 9.7-inch iPad Pro and all other iPad and iPhone models.*

Lightning Camera Adapter (they do not mention iPhones for a reason here):

The Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter supports standard photo formats, including JPEG and RAW, along with SD and HD video formats, including H.264 and MPEG-4. The 12.9-inch iPad Pro (1st and 2nd generation) and 10.5-inch iPad Pro transfers data at USB 3 speeds, while the 9.7-inch iPad Pro uses USB 2.

Now, you decide, whether Apple knows the limitations of their own products or not

It is very interesting and accurate what you say, although it could be the case that the information on these accessories has not been updated.

I cannot do this test since unfortunately my iPhone is the 7 Plus, but it is likely that the great iPhone 13 has a similar lightning connector technology to that of my second generation iPad Pro (or even better).

We will have to wait for someone who has an iPhone 13 (both normal and Pro) to also acquire the lightning to USB3 adapter for cameras, take the test and get us out of doubt.

Youtubers and Vloggers now will be able to use the IPhone which they should for what they do and less likely buy a BMPCC now. Yey! That's terrific news. Now I hope this forum can get back to really pro cinema camera discussions and next gen camera direction that's been taking BMD focus away from cinematographer the last few years trying to compete with the DSLR market even without IBIS and AF by offering a cheaper camera.

Be a little understanding and allow us some small technological sins, such as commenting on the video of the new iPhone 13 Pro.

I love my BMPCC4K camera and its splendid images, but I also really like my iPhone 7 Plus (from 2016) for other reasons even though its images are not of a high quality.

But sometimes we only have our phone to immortalize an unrepeatable moment and we are excited that now Apple has created a device that makes video in 10-bit ProRes format that allows its subsequent editing with dignity.

A few days ago I was on vacation and I was able to enjoy making some great clips of the city with my BMPCC4K, but one afternoon I had to take some shots with my iPhone 7 Plus that now I have to integrate into the documentary that I am editing and it is very problematic to do so due to its low depth of 8 bits.

And it is for this reason that now I dream of the moment when I can buy a brand new iPone 13 Pro, and until then I am content to talk about it and inform myself as well as possible.

It is very interesting and accurate what you say, although it could be the case that the information on these accessories has not been updated.

I cannot do this test since unfortunately my iPhone is the 7 Plus, but it is likely that the great iPhone 13 has a similar lightning connector technology to that of my second generation iPad Pro (or even better).

We will have to wait for someone who has an iPhone 13 (both normal and Pro) to also acquire the lightning to USB3 adapter for cameras, take the test and get us out of doubt.

I have both the SD Card Reader and the Camera thingy. Both handle USB 3.0 - or let's be kind and say: faster than USB 2 speeds - on my old iPad Pro 10.5 (from 2017), but it's more or less an acquired taste. I also have an old Microsoft Surface Pro 4 from 2015 with a slow Intel m3 chip, but it runs rings around the iPad Pro, when it comes to moving data into the tablet or out to the same SSD.

All my iPhones up to and including my iPhone 12 Pro will ONLY handle/deliver/read/write USB 2 speeds on any USB 3 capable devices from Apple. Just as Apple says, and Apple is not known for forgetting to tell users, when severe limitations like that are removed. On the contrary: You would have been told in the iPhone 13 launch show, that it supported USB3 (via Lightning), if that was the case.

I have not verified the iPhone 13 USB2 limitation in person, and I do not plan to, since I am not buying any iPhone 13 or later version, without support for USB-C and at least USB 3 speeds plus toouch-ID (my 2019 Samsung has "in screen touch ID", that works, so... it's not that it is a supernew and untested revolutionary approach by now).

I am completely convinced, that Apple is fully aware of the capabilities of their hardware, and that their website has been checked, rechecked and data verified for the umpteenth time, even before the imminent release of iPhone 13 with complete iPhone site replacement the same night. A two trillion dollar company has the muscle to do that. Immediately!

IF iPhone 13 did support USB 3.0 it would have been all over the web by now, but no trumpets have sounded on that front. The latest test by a serious website with real life credentials and technical tests no YouTuber dream of performing, states, that iPhone 13 Pro only supports USB 2.0 (Apple press department would have been all over them by now - like a ton of bricks - if that was not true

You can look for yourself here:

https://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-Appl ... 735.0.html

I have attached an image of the pertinent official specs quoted in the article (USB 2.0 is 'spelled' identically in English

Copy of specs on German version of Notebook.com.

Skærmbillede 2021-10-13 223151.jpg (266.98 KiB) Viewed 6055 times

I would not invest in any iPhone of any version (13 or older) in the belief, that anything better than USB 2 speeds are possible via Lightning. The limit is NOT "the cable" or that Apple "forgot to tell" and no one in the tech press had even discovered anything USB 3.0 by now, but the simple fact, that iPhones do not allow anything akin to USB 3 speeds (or at least higher than USB 2 speeds) connected to any Apple device verifiable capable of handling USB 3 over Lightning.

I wouldn't doubt Apple on that front.

Regards and a big, heretic smile

Thank you very much for attaching such a detailed analysis on the iPhone 13 Pro.

In that study they clearly specify the existence of a USB port at 2.0 speed.

This bottleneck for sending and receiving files on a high-quality mobile is a real shame

Thank you very much for attaching such a detailed analysis on the iPhone 13 Pro.

In that study they clearly specify the existence of a USB port at 2.0 speed.

This bottleneck for sending and receiving files on a high-quality mobile is a real shame

I agree completely. Especially since it is completely unnecessary to limit speeds at USB 2 levels - even when using Lightning as “transport connection”.

I regard it as yet another sign, that Apple’s developer teams for the different hardware design parts do not talk across inner corporate boundaries. One department getting the OK to implement something like “best possible” ProRES capabilities, and succeeding. Without anyone informing the “outside connection” division, that USB 2.0 speeds may no longer be the best solution for the up and coming iPhone 13 Pro models. By accident or deliberately (I tend to favor the latter

This often happens in huge corporations with divisions and departments more involved in turf wars, than working to a common goal. It is generally a sign, that the upper echelons of the company is beginning to loose control and vision as well as the project management showing lack of over/insight - here the top iPhone management team.

At least that’s my take. Nobody at Apple will go public on the reasons behind the design choices and running the risk of sudden “retirement plans”.

Regards and a big smile

Hi All
I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the Apple products.
My actual question was how do I properly setup Davinci Resolve to edit the ProRes Files. I too use the BMPCC4k and sony gear. BUT How do I color grade the 13's ProRes footage? (The 13 pro/max produces 10bit/422)

I think the files are in r709 g2.4.
Is that what you are asking?

Or both possibilities: SDR and HDR.

I’m not sure there is an option for hdr in prores on the filmic pro app.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m not sure there is an option for hdr in prores on the filmic pro app.

There is. One of the test files I've managed to lay my hand on, was ProRes 422 HQ (582 Mb/s, BT.2020 HLG). Here's a dump from MediaInfo:

Generelt
Fulde navn : /Volumes/Thunderbolt/IPhone 13 ProRES/BIBW3766.MOV
Format : MPEG-4
Formatprofil : QuickTime
Codec-ID : qt 0000.00 (qt )
Filstørrelse : 937 MiB
Varighed : 13sek. 502 ms
Samlet bitratemodus : Variabel
Samlet bitrate : 582 Mb/s
Kodet den : UTC 2021-09-28 20:43:22
Tagged den : UTC 2021-09-28 20:43:35
Skrivende bibliotek : Apple QuickTime
com.apple.quicktime.location.ISO6709 : +47.6207-122.3493/
com.FilmicPro.FilmicLibrary.dynamicRange : prores
com.apple.quicktime.publisher : ISO: 63.007782
com.apple.quicktime.software : Created with FiLMiC Pro 6.17.0 build 22407
com.apple.quicktime.make : Filmic
com.apple.quicktime.model : Pro

Video
ID : 1
Format : ProRes
Formatversion : Version 0
Formatprofil : 422 HQ
Codec-ID : apch
Varighed : 13sek. 502 ms
Bitratemodus : Variabel
Bitrate : 582 Mb/s
Bredde : 3.840 billedpunkter
Højde : 2.160 billedpunkter
Størrelsesforhold : 16:9
Billedratemodus : Variabel
Billedfrekvens : 24,000 FPS
Minimum billedfrekvens : 23,077 FPS
Maksimum billedfrekvens : 24,000 FPS
Farverum : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2
Skantype : Progressiv
Bits/(Billedpunkter*Billed) : 2.921
Strømstørrelse : 936 MiB (100%)
Titel : Core Media Video
Skrivende bibliotek : Apple
Kodet den : UTC 2021-09-28 20:43:22
Tagged den : UTC 2021-09-28 20:43:35
Color primaries : BT.2020
Overførselskarakteristika : HLG
Matrix-coefficienter : BT.2020 non-constant

Lyd
ID : 2
Format : PCM
Formatindstillinger : Little / Signed
Codec-ID : lpcm
Varighed : 13sek. 488 ms
Source duration : 13sek. 461 ms
Bitratemodus : Konstant
Bitrate : 768 kb/s
Kanaler : 1 kanal
Samplingsrate : 48,0 kHz
Bitdybde : 16 bits
Strømstørrelse : 1,23 MiB (0%)
Source stream size : 1,23 MiB (0%)
Titel : Core Media Audio
Kodet den : UTC 2021-09-28 20:43:22
Tagged den : UTC 2021-09-28 20:43:35

I can't remember, where I downloaded the file from, so no need to ask. Go hunting. There are actual facts to be found out there on the internet

Regards

This is the same HLG, which Apple is using when sooting HDR with h265. This is good.
My worry would be that even Filmic Pro doesn't encore fixed fps. This is crap.

Interesting! Well the newest version of Filmic and MediaInfo: the report shows 709 not 2020 or HLG... see below. Tried 30FPS portrait and Landscape and 24fps Landscape... Proxy and HQ.
(Side note... Portrait showed a slight variable frame rate while all Landscapes showed fixed frame rates which is NEW to iPhones.)

Code: Select all

General
Complete name                            : 20211010-00_setthis_113_O4B8.mov
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : QuickTime
Codec ID                                 : qt   0000.00 (qt  )
File size                                : 270 MiB
Duration                                 : 4 s 40 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 560 Mb/s
Movie name                               : 20211010-00
Description                              : setthis
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-10-19 18:45:57
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-10-19 18:46:01
Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime
com.FilmicPro.FilmicLibrary.dynamicRange : prores
com.apple.quicktime.publisher            : ISO: 127.00859
com.apple.quicktime.software             : Created with FiLMiC Pro 6.17.0 build 22511
com.apple.quicktime.make                 : Filmic
com.apple.quicktime.model                : Pro

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : 422 HQ
Codec ID                                 : apch
Duration                                 : 3 s 958 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 571 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 2.868
Stream size                              : 269 MiB (100%)
Title                                    : Core Media Video
Writing library                          : Apple
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-10-19 18:45:57
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-10-19 18:46:01
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : lpcm
Duration                                 : 4 s 40 ms
Source duration                          : 3 s 925 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 768 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 1 channel
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 379 KiB (0%)
Source stream size                       : 368 KiB (0%)
Title                                    : Core Media Audio
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-10-19 18:45:57
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-10-19 18:46:01

Report created on                        : UTC 2021-10-19 18:49:05


Either it's SDR or flags are set wrongly.
You should be able to tell by looking at the actual footage. HLG interpreted as Rec.709 will look dull and dark.
Constant fps is good news.

Interesting! Well the newest version of Filmic and MediaInfo: the report shows 709 not 2020 or HLG... see below. Tried 30FPS portrait and Landscape and 24fps Landscape... Proxy and HQ.
(Side note... Portrait showed a slight variable frame rate while all Landscapes showed fixed frame rates which is NEW to iPhones.)

I think it’s best to wait with any final conclusions until Apple actually releases the official support for ProRes. I assume, that this also involves an iOS upgrade, so what FiLMiC Pro is able to do (or not) in the version I found on the net or the second version, you show, may become irrelevant in real life.

We already had several versions of iOS lately (15.0 shipping from sep 24, released sep 20, 15.0.1 on oct 1 and 15.0.2 on oct 11). Who knows, what we’ll end up with, when ProRes is made officially available at some time in the future.

The file I found, would have been produced by iOS 15.0, and the date of your file indicates version 15.0.2 if you’re fully updated. Those three versions do NOT officially support ProRes, and may even contain differences in the - ahem - non-official support levels and implemented capabilities.

The file I found, seemed to be HDR (a lot of blue sky, those fluffy, white things - ah, clouds (remember the Pilot sketch with Dean Martin). It was very bright with fine highlights - especially on my big HDR (DCI-P3, 32-bit) monitor. Deep shadows in a foreground tower (seen from below) were convincing. Alas… the file may have been doctored, for all I know (doubt it, but…).

Judging anything specific in details before Apples official ProRes support should be deemed futile. It can only be “inspirational” at this stage.

When support is official and the real facts are in, we know. And, yes, I know that nothing can kill a prolonged thread containing heated discussions on minute details as quick as those pesky things called facts.

Regards and a big smile

Good Morning
Filmic Pro just updated its software and now offers two ProRes encoding options:

(1) 10bit/422 VBR SDR with BT.709
(2) 10bit/422 VBR with BT.2100 HLG and Color Primaries & YCbCr Matrix of BT.2020 for HDR or Wide Gamut

Code: Select all

General
Complete name                            : 20211020-00_scenelabel_101_I5V8.mov
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : QuickTime
Codec ID                                 : qt   0000.00 (qt  )
File size                                : 167 MiB
Duration                                 : 8 s 255 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 170 Mb/s
Movie name                               : 20211020-00
Description                              : scenelabel
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-10-21 14:37:15
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-10-21 14:37:23
Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime
com.FilmicPro.FilmicLibrary.dynamicRange : prores
com.apple.quicktime.publisher            : ISO: 672.16406
com.apple.quicktime.software             : Created with FiLMiC Pro 6.17.1 build 22793
com.apple.quicktime.make                 : Filmic
com.apple.quicktime.model                : Pro

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : 422 Proxy
Codec ID                                 : apco
Duration                                 : 8 s 165 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 171 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Variable
Frame rate                               : 30.000 FPS
Minimum frame rate                       : 28.571 FPS
Maximum frame rate                       : 31.579 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.686
Stream size                              : 166 MiB (100%)
Title                                    : Core Media Video
Writing library                          : Apple
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-10-21 14:37:15
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-10-21 14:37:23
Color primaries                          : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics                 : HLG
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.2020 non-constant

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : lpcm
Duration                                 : 8 s 255 ms
Source duration                          : 8 s 171 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 768 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 1 channel
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 774 KiB (0%)
Source stream size                       : 766 KiB (0%)
Title                                    : Core Media Audio
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-10-21 14:37:15
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-10-21 14:37:23

Report created on                        : UTC 2021-10-21 14:44:34