The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

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Michel Rabe

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Feb 07, 2023 12:36 am

John Paines wrote:Folks need FF for all the great movies they're not going to make and all the unwatchable ones they do make....


Hahaha, so true.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Feb 07, 2023 6:24 pm

I really hope they do bring out another camera. If the 12k was in a different form factor and fit on a gimbal, I doubt id even be looking at another camera for many years. Well that and maybe some ongoing support if it breaks after 12 months, id be a happy man
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 6:36 am

Tamas Harangi wrote: Meanwhile, Netflix shows and movies are shooting on Komodos instead because its pros and cons make it fit better into a certain low budget market segment.


Around here, the big winner on the Netflix shows is the Venice 2 -- which has a Super 35 as well as a full frame option. It's displacing both Red and Arri.

I really hope that with the Alexa 35 getting out there, this push for LF sensors gets tamed and we all start pushing for better S-35 cameras as opposed to more Ks and larger film backs.

[/quote]

Red and Arri both added Super 35 cameras to their lineups after launching their latest generation (Sony's interchangeable head put it ahead of the curve there), so Super 35 isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 6:42 am

AbdoulUK wrote:I really hope they do bring out another camera. If the 12k was in a different form factor and fit on a gimbal, I doubt id even be looking at another camera for many years. Well that and maybe some ongoing support if it breaks after 12 months, id be a happy man


Same here. The 12K is a great camera, though I agree with JB about the marketing bungle of calling it a 12K camera, because that's not its biggest selling point. The color is very good, which one would expect since there's really only one company in the world that could be argued to have a stronger color science team in house than Black Magic, and that company doesn't make cameras. And it's a very, very close race.

I honestly don't think that BMD will get out of the camera market, but I think BMD has also slowed its release pace. I'm hoping that BMD plans to wait until it's able to make a major update before releasing its next camera. I'm also hoping for more cameras using the 12K sensor design, regardless of the resolution, though if BMD released a 12K camera with a Komodo-ish form factor it would make a killer hybrid. And by killer, I mean unmatched.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 7:38 am

While I have absolutely nothing against more options, I never understood the camera gear anxiety some people have developed. They buy into a very capable camera system and then a year later hop onto the next system as soon as that comes out. And so on and so forth.

It takes me at least a year to learn the ins and outs of my system and after I’ve mastered it I stay on it for several years. This makes work fast and efficient and gives confidence in the gear, which means it frees your mind for the creative part.

My UM46K from early 2017 still makes me money, but my main camera has become the PCC4K since early 2019, complemented by a second PCC4K and a PCC6K Pro. I can trust that gear blindly for the outcome.
That’s the most important part for me and my workflow.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 7:50 am

Robert Niessner wrote:While I have absolutely nothing against more options, I never understood the camera gear anxiety some people have developed. They buy into a very capable camera system and then a year later hop onto the next system as soon as that comes out. And so on and so forth.


I understand it completely -- it's an excuse to avoid putting in the effort to learn one's craft. There are a staggering number of people who go out and buy a new camera, lens, accessory, or whatever in the hopes that it will be the magic bullet that makes their work good, and of course it doesn't work. So they blame the gear, because that's easy to do.

It takes me at least a year to learn the ins and outs of my system and after I’ve mastered it I stay on it for several years. This makes work fast and efficient and gives confidence in the gear, which means it frees your mind for the creative part.


I feel like I usually need around 10 minutes to get comfortable with a new camera, a few days of shooting to feel confident with it, and only upgrade when said upgrade will make my life easier, which is usually 3-5 years. :)

My UM46K from early 2017 still makes me money, but my main camera has become the PCC4K since early 2019, complemented by a second PCC4K and a PCC6K Pro. I can trust that gear blindly for the outcome.
That’s the most important part for me and my workflow.


That's what happens when you study your craft instead of hoping that the badge on the camera is a "talent" button. But a lot of talent-button-hunters manage to get paid by marketing their fake talent buttons to people even more clueless than they are.

I had a pretend filmmaker try to convince me that you can't make a feature film with a BMPCC 6K just a couple of weeks ago... I decided I'll just never work with him, which shouldn't be hard to accomplish living in a major film hub.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 9:25 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:It takes me at least a year to learn the ins and outs of my system and after I’ve mastered it I stay on it for several years. This makes work fast and efficient and gives confidence in the gear, which means it frees your mind for the creative part.


I feel like I usually need around 10 minutes to get comfortable with a new camera, a few days of shooting to feel confident with it, and only upgrade when said upgrade will make my life easier, which is usually 3-5 years. :)

I probably should have elaborated on that a little bit:

I was referring to the overall system of camera, accessories, and post-processing. And of course, it's much easier to get involved with a new camera from an existing line.

Since the introduction of the current user interface of the Blackmagic cameras, you can actually learn the basic operation within fifteen minutes. After a few days of working with the camera and reading the user manual, you probably have 80% mastered it.

After that, the rig is optimized over the months, a few parts added here, a few parts modified, a few parts gone again. Only with time and many shoots, you then know what works and what does not. Especially if you can buy many parts of a rig only online and not test beforehand.

And finally, you also have to gain experience with the filmed material.

All this together is what I meant by about a year.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 9:36 am

Robert Niessner wrote:I was referring to the overall system of camera, accessories, and post-processing. And of course, it's much easier to get involved with a new camera from an existing line.


I think you were fine. You're just describing the process of honing your craft. Not doing that is what leads people to upgrade their cameras constantly. I don't do that often enough to need to change my rig much, so I forgot about the accessories and rigginng part... like the Zhiyun Crane 3s that I've had for almost two years, because it still works fine with my camera. :)
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timbutt2

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 10:21 pm

Here's some irony for you. I was finishing off a roll of film yesterday evening and joined up with a fellow photographer and two models. The models couldn't quite grasp that I had to have them hold still for a bit longer for me to keep focus while getting the shot. Autofocus has completely distorted their perception of posing. I also count down before hitting the shutter release. I get one shot in that second, not multiple like with digital. Then I move on without being able to see how the shot came out. One actually came over to see the result and I had to explain we don't see until the film is developed.

I bring this up because sometimes learning the craft of the old methods are pivotal to improving your skills with the new methods. I've been wanting to go back to shooting motion picture film as well recently. It's about the craft and discipline.

On a short shooting 8K REDRAW this January the director just kept the camera rolling instead of slating again in between angles for a reason that became apparent later. I learned that he did an old manual method of syncing because he didn't know about the newer automated methods; He wasn't using timecode sync nor audio waveform sync. He talked about it taking hours to sync. Still, digital spoils and causes bad habits at times. I've numerous times been on shoots where the director says let's keep rolling because it's digital.

My main requests for new features on the camera is about improving workflow and build features. Again, I've said it above. But I do want to reiterate the move to CFExpress.

Angelbird just introduced a new 4TB CFExpress Type B Card. For the 12K that will be very useful not just for the sustained write speeds in CFExpress but also allowing for more capacity to shoot longer in that higher resolution. If you treat the 12K resolution with the discipline of motion picture film then you do get better results.

So going with the requests I have for body improvements is all about me designing a dream rig to better fit my needs in production. This is again a separate on camera monitor like a Video Assist that can control the camera via Touch Screen Control. This is the more ports and cutting down on cables with strategically placed ports for lens motors and such. It's about fixing things that annoy me in our current methods of building rigs.

Again, I don't upgrade willy nilly. I waited between the OG UM4.6K and the UMPG2 because the G2 brought the improvements I wanted to improve my work. And, the UMPG2 still works so well for me that I may not sell it even if I upgrade to the next generation after the 12K. I skipped the 12K not fully because of the resolution, but because besides the sensor improvements the body didn't bring anything I really wanted to see improved. Thus, I'll take a 12K with body improvements.

Another reminder of waiting to upgrade: I shot with the Canon 7D for stills for over a decade. I finally upgraded to a Sony A7IV last year after carefully waiting and researching what fit my needs.

Arri waited a decade to upgrade the Super 35 sensor of theirs to the Alexa 35. Now, the next LF version of their cameras will be based on that Alexa 35. Doing the same stitching method they did with their first LF sensor. And, the improvements to the body of the Alexa 35 will go over to the LF camera builds as well. Patience is something Arri shows great strength in.

I hope Blackmagic releases a new camera that takes into account what we have requested but at the same time does what makes sense for them. They have DaVinci Resolve, and using that as a basis for what they need to do camera wise to make their footage work great with Resolve it only makes sense for them to bring something out that will keep people in their ecosystem.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 09, 2023 12:43 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:While I have absolutely nothing against more options, I never understood the camera gear anxiety some people have developed. They buy into a very capable camera system and then a year later hop onto the next system as soon as that comes out. And so on and so forth.

It takes me at least a year to learn the ins and outs of my system and after I’ve mastered it I stay on it for several years. This makes work fast and efficient and gives confidence in the gear, which means it frees your mind for the creative part.

My UM46K from early 2017 still makes me money, but my main camera has become the PCC4K since early 2019, complemented by a second PCC4K and a PCC6K Pro. I can trust that gear blindly for the outcome.
That’s the most important part for me and my workflow.


You echo my thoughts on camera gear. I was a performing musician for many years. I never bought into getting a bunch of different brands and models of an instrument. I found an instrument that I liked and practiced with it. I felt that my performance was enhanced the most by becoming intimate with the instrument. Over time I branched out into a few instruments that covered vastly different voices. Upright bass vs fretted bass guitar vs fretless bass guitar but that was the extend of my collection. I have been approaching cameras with the same perspective.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 09, 2023 2:15 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:While I have absolutely nothing against more options, I never understood the camera gear anxiety some people have developed. They buy into a very capable camera system and then a year later hop onto the next system as soon as that comes out. And so on and so forth.

I'm here with you buddy. I don't understand why their are folks who always wants the latest and greatest, or even the notion of when they say they need to "future proof".
Robert Niessner wrote:It takes me at least a year to learn the ins and outs of my system and after I’ve mastered it I stay on it for several years. This makes work fast and efficient and gives confidence in the gear, which means it frees your mind for the creative part.

It takes me that much time to learn my system and then I can confidently say that I know what I can get out of it. There are times, due to production needs, that I have to rent cameras that I don't have or have very little familiarity with it. But that is rare and when that happens, I'm usually directing or doing the DP work so I have a camera operator who is very familiar with the unit.

Robert Niessner wrote:My UM46K from early 2017 still makes me money, but my main camera has become the PCC4K since early 2019, complemented by a second PCC4K and a PCC6K Pro. I can trust that gear blindly for the outcome.
That’s the most important part for me and my workflow.

I have been holding on with my UMP46K G2 and the P6K OG for a while now. Those I am grateful for what I can produce with them and have not found a need to upgrade for any reason. I have not found a situation that tells me oh I have to get that camera because it is FF or has a different mount, etc. The only time and till today that I would consider a new camera is one that is of a box form factor from BMD. There are ergonomics and rigging reasons that I would find a box form factor worth acquiring but it has nothing to do with a newer sensor, etc. They are great to have but only to a price point.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 09, 2023 6:06 pm

Yeah, as far as "Gear Anxiety," I think most manufacturers by now have crossed what I call "The Alexa Valley" -- a point beyond which, a camera will continue to produce a pleasing, theatrically acceptable image throughout it's maintainable life span. All new gear is really just about bells and whistles and functional improvements -- some of them worthy of shelling out additional cash for, no doubt -- but these improvements no longer make the previous cameras totaly obsolete. You'll be able able to shoot something on an URSA ten years from now and put in a theater or on streaming, and it will still look great, and no new sensors, or new streaming mandates would make the original images themselves any less pleasing.

As Steve Yedlin says, unless you start cloning new eyeballs for humans, there is only so much you can improve on the image. So today, on one hand, it's more about what functional improvements at what price point would make it worth updating my current gear -- which of course becomes very subjective.

But on the manufacturing side I guess it's more about what functional improvements would we need to introduce to continue to please our market segment, and make a potential upgrade worthwhile for current users, and potentially be able move into different market segments at the same time. For Blackmagic, I don't personally think that an LF sensor is the answer to those questions, but that's just my opinion.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 09, 2023 8:48 pm

Tamas Harangi wrote:Yeah, as far as "Gear Anxiety," I think most manufacturers by now have crossed what I call "The Alexa Valley" -- a point beyond which, a camera will continue to produce a pleasing, theatrically acceptable image throughout it's maintainable life span. All new gear is really just about bells and whistles and functional improvements -- some of them worthy of shelling out additional cash for, no doubt -- but these improvements no longer make the previous cameras totaly obsolete. You'll be able able to shoot something on an URSA ten years from now and put in a theater or on streaming, and it will still look great, and no new sensors, or new streaming mandates would make the original images themselves any less pleasing.

As Steve Yedlin says, unless you start cloning new eyeballs for humans, there is only so much you can improve on the image. So today, on one hand, it's more about what functional improvements at what price point would make it worth updating my current gear -- which of course becomes very subjective.

But on the manufacturing side I guess it's more about what functional improvements would we need to introduce to continue to please our market segment, and make a potential upgrade worthwhile for current users, and potentially be able move into different market segments at the same time. For Blackmagic, I don't personally think that an LF sensor is the answer to those questions, but that's just my opinion.


^^100%
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Feb 12, 2023 8:09 pm

Am I reading too much into a recent John-of-this-parish-Brawley Instagram post with a slate describing "X cam test" where the lens appears to be a 24-290 optimo (I.e. super 35)?

Answering my own question: probably
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Feb 13, 2023 4:48 am

Ed_Mantle wrote:Am I reading too much into a recent John-of-this-parish-Brawley Instagram post with a slate describing "X cam test" where the lens appears to be a 24-290 optimo (I.e. super 35)?

Answering my own question: probably

This Post? https://www.instagram.com/p/CoGg2n5vj35 ... _copy_link
I doubt it's a new camera. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they're shooting ARRI. And, since an Alexa 35 is in another post:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CojecOqPldA ... _copy_link

I'd say that Alexa 35 is safe. And, it looks like a big production, so it must have been camera tests.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 16, 2023 5:29 am

I have just finished replacing my two BMPCC 4k's, with 2 used Panasonic S1H cameras.
I would have gone BMPCC 6k, but the EF mount locked me out of using my Voigtlander lenses.
I initially picked up a Zcam f6. Mechanically, lot's of excellent things. But the lack of proper implementation of Raw over HDMI to the BM Video assist, left me not having a lot of faith in the future of Zcam. Not being able to have record control and timecode over Hdmi, was simply just a big issue for me.

That being said, the S1H is also an amazing camera. I'm getting some amazing footage using the Video assist to record Braw. I did some testing, and the image shooting 5.6k anamorphic at 8:1 is better and sharper than shooting s35 4k at 3:1, with only a 10% increase in file size,
And I like that it has both IBIS and an OLP filter. It's a little smaller package, that's simply a little easier to balance on the RS3 gimbal as well.

I'm hoping Blackmagic releases a cube camera with an L-mount.
If not, I'll be sticking with the panasonic.

Mark
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