Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

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popcornflix

Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostWed Jun 25, 2014 8:17 pm

Has the Resolve 11 Beta improved the mapping to the Tangent Elements control surface?

Is customizeable mapping enabled?

TIA
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Harris Charalambous

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Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 6:39 am

Unfortunelty not! There are a lot of great new features in Resolve 11, but none of them are mapped and some of the old mapping is also broken now. HSL qualification - blur etc. Node Sizing etc etc, so we have to really rely on the mouse now more than ever.

popcornflix

Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 9:49 am

Everyone who uses a Tangent Elements Panel, please complain to Black Magic Design, and get them to fix & improve implementation in Resolve 11 beta.

They say they are listening to user feedback now. Let's get their attention and get this fixed.
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Peter Chamberlain

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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 11:47 am

It is not our intention to break the existing v10 controls on the Elements so we can look into those. Thanks for the report.

As I have mentioned previously, the panel control for all panel, even the BMD panels, is not straight forward so adding new items is quite time consuming. Adding for one panel does not automatically provide it for others. It's therefore considered along with the long feature request list and I tend to bias the development where a broad number of users can gain the most benefit. That said I plan to review the options for panel work in the next development cycle to see what we can add.
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John Sellars

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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 3:16 pm

Just curious, if it's so much work, why not hand off the mapping to the panel manufacturer or the user? Nucoda, Scratch, Mistika and Lustre have done this, although Baselight and Speedgrade have not.

http://www.tangentwave.co.uk/applications.asp

Another great feature would be the ability to use multiple button panels, like this: http://www.digitalvision.tv/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Tangent_Panel_Guide.pdf
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Harris Charalambous

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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 4:37 pm

Hi Peter, congrats on the Beta Release of 11 and thank you for the reply and explanation!

Hopefully you guys can take a look at the Element Mapping for R11. There are a lot of buttons now that are broken, most of which have to do with the changing of features and the addition of new ones. To name just a few, HSL Key Blur, Shrink / Grow + New qualification Controls. Bypass Grades, Node Sizing for Cloning, Lack of Offset Wheel Assignment etc. Unfortunately this is just the tip of the iceberg. The current mapping still only has the most basic functions and in many cases not even those. This makes us all have to do atleast 60% or more with a pen or mouse. It's incredibly inefficient and creates fatigue.

We all understand that Blackmagic is implementing the changes that effect the larger audience and that is great but colorists with the elements panels are usually the ones that are making an effort to take the profession to the next level. The BMD panels are great and we would all like to buy them, but as I'm sure you know they are not within reach of a single / owner operator or small business. The rates just won't allow this anymore.

Custom Mapping via Tangent Hub would be the ideal! I am a heavy and dedicated resolve user as you know, but it hurts to see Nucoda have such incredible and well thought out Tangent Element Mapping not to mention the option to custom map on top of that already solid mapping. You rarely need to touch the mouse or keyboard during grading.

Please take a look at this so we don't have to endure another year of having to grade between, Panels, Keyboards, Mouse , Pen Tablet and gaming controls.

Thanks for listening!
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Paul Provost

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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 5:29 pm

I'l pad this discussion out a little as I'll just be repeating myself and others.
As more and more color functionality gets added to resolve, 3rd party panels become less and less useful, which is frustrating and a hindrance to using the software as a color grader. I too find myself basically just using the mouse for practically everything other than color wheels with my Tangent Elements. Even the things that are mapped are often split between pages making it just faster to use the mouse (log grading, offsets for example). And there are so many unused buttons and knobs.
Please add custom user mapping of grading panels so that this great software can be used to its fullest potential.

I understand that the product is morphing into something else with expanded editorial and on set features, and free/low cost installs where a grading panel is less likely to be available or needed. To make matters worse, many of those installs don't even bother to setup proper monitoring using a Blackmagic I/O card, which was the whole intent of offering a free version in the first place I assume.

Yes I know that the Davinci panel offers everything, but the reality is that the rates I can get nowadays are a third of what they were just a few years ago, before the free Resolve light became part of every production company and ad agency tape vault, much less edit bay. There are now damn few situations which justify anything over the cost of a third party panel.

Custom mapping is really the solution, as adding one or two buttons a year is a depressing prospect to look forward to. Being able to map the elements or even add additional modules as others have implemented is key. And we've all said it would be gladly received as a paid upgrade. Hell, even a kickstarter campaign or some other pre-funding scheme. Everyone does that now for software development!
Thanks for listening and congrats on Rv11b.
Paul (now with carpel tunnel color grading mouse wrist)
Last edited by Paul Provost on Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jason Bowdach

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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 7:01 pm

As a colorist working with numerous surfaces, ive seen significant decline in functionality with third part panels with Resolve 11. As someone who is trying to avoid damage to my wrists AND speed up my coloring, a properly working third party control surface without "hacks" or strange workaround like assigning to keyboard shortcuts is CRUCIAL. Removal of such functionality is actually a massive step backwards, despite the remarkable new set of feature in R11 just because I need to rely on my keyboard and mouse for almost all of my work in R11.

PLEASE add better support for third party panels in Resolve 11 and add the ability to remap and configure buttons on third part panels. It as crucial as some of the new features you've added to the software, because we cant work if we cant interface with the software.

Many thanks for your consideration.
Colorist \ Finishing Artist | www.JasonBowdach.com | www.PixelToolsPost.com
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 7:12 pm

Howdy, I would like to join the pile on. Being able to map my tangents would really give me the speed to compete with the big boys. I have a very specific workflow for my part of the pie and I need the ability to shape the tools I use so that I can work faster (to keep up) and better (getting rid of the functions I never use but have to tab through).

I also would pay for the ability to map my tangents. I own a full license of Resolve and even if the price were to jump to a "professional" bracket of say 3k to 4k with panel mapping I would make the move.

I will now make a general statement. Just because we would be able to map smaller panels does not mean we will be better colorists. The big boys will always be who they are because they are rock stars. Except they perform in really dark rooms with proper valence lighting and calibrated monitors to boot.

Please let us run wild only to complain about the next thing,

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Margus Voll

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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 7:22 pm

It just got me thinking about that just today in two sense.

I just consider getting Elements. My reasoning is similar cost based otherwise i would go for large panel.
If it would not work nicely then i would rather not use it for now. But my keyboard shortcuts also do not work well. (Another topic.)

It got me thinking that if panel implementation is complicated maybe it would be good idea
to look of the tech side (maybe it is already working like this)

So i would imagine that Resolve has punch of actions or functions that
are defined to be controlled by any panel.
Panel side probably has sort of software to give out functionality or signals to those buttons or wheels.

So on paper it should be just "binding" both sides together to make it work and it should not be to difficult
if the underlying platform is well defined as XML data exchange does.

Now BM knows it better how good is the foundation so that fast and flexible binding could be done.

Same thing happens now with custom keyboard mapping.
Same thing could be happening with panels also if underlying protocols and talking to echoer would support it.

Maybe someday Linux license could be separated from panels and pricing would be different
then it would make more sense to me getting big panel.
Time would tell.
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popcornflix

Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 8:12 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote:It is not our intention to break the existing v10 controls on the Elements so we can look into those. Thanks for the report.


Thank you.

Peter Chamberlain wrote:As I have mentioned previously, the panel control for all panel, even the BMD panels, is not straight forward so adding new items is quite time consuming. Adding for one panel does not automatically provide it for others. It's therefore considered along with the long feature request list and I tend to bias the development where a broad number of users can gain the most benefit. That said I plan to review the options for panel work in the next development cycle to see what we can add.


Please just hand it off to Tangent's Mapper software.

Instead of putting in the time to add new items, just get Resolve to talk properly to Tangent's Hub and Mapper, so that Tangent and their users can program the panels.

This would be an excellent solution for users, and move this problem off BMD's desk.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jun 27, 2014 12:56 am

I share in everyone's dissatisfaction with the state of 3rd party panel mapping & customization, but the only thing that is tempering my frustration is my assumption (which is completely unsubstantiated) that BMD is feverishly working behind closed doors to design a totally new, lower cost, modular, professional quality control-surface solution that will totally obviate the need for 3rd party panels.

I've mentioned this before on other forums, but it never hurts to remind people that it's got to be a major pain in the ass for BMD to have to continually support multiple different control-surfaces from multiple different vendors, particularly for a software package as complex and specialized as Resolve.

An obvious retort to that would something along the lines of: Why can't BMD just make an SDK available so that 3rd parties could talk to Resolve through an API or other method of hardware abstraction?

That obviously makes logical sense, but it conveniently ignores the fact that Resolve is now owned by a company with a laser-sharp focus and coordinated vision regarding their entire product line. They are certainly not making any relevant revenue just from selling $1000 Resolve dongles to professional colorists. It's easy to forget that only 5 years ago, da Vinci Resolve was a grading system that required over six-figures to invest in. And today, the cab driver taking you to McCarran airport probably has Resolve Lite installed on his Macbook.

So to put on my pundit hat, it's only logical to assume that Resolve exists to fuel hardware sales for BMD. Obviously, everyone has been saying this since the full version of Resolve was bundled for free with the BMCC, but I'm surprised that nobody is seeing the obvious master plan here: BMD is the perfect company to design and build a price-disruptive, high quality control-surface that is tailor made to drive Davinci Resolve, and Resolve alone. If they start selling a panel that is at least as good as the current BMD Resolve Control Surface, but in a smaller (or perhaps modular) form-factor and significantly cheaper, then EVERY professional Resolve colorist will certainly buy it.

So why should they waste their time trying to support 3rd party panels, particularly when it's not an easy task to do so, regardless of their business motivations?

I really hope that I'm right about all this :)
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popcornflix

Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jun 27, 2014 2:26 am

I disagree with your completely unsubstantiated assumption. ;)

If you think BMD isn't making enough revenue by selling Resolve Dongles, why would they waste time making an affordable control surface? Even fewer customers would buy it, so it wouldn't become a big profit center.

BMD is in the business of building ecosystems. They want to get the indie filmmaker to use their cameras, Resolve, and outboard hardware. They want people to outfit entire TV stations using BMD products.

I hope BMD lets companies like Tangent take over the hardware control of Resolve. Whether through an SDK or some other mechanism, they should do it.

There are three tiers of Resolve customers: Big Post Houses, Small Independents and Hobbyists. Big Post Hoiuses spend $30k on the Big Panel and Linux. Hobbyists use Resolve Lite for free on their laptops and can't afford a dedicated panel at all.

But what about the middle tier? What about the small independents, the target market for the BMD cameras? They were the target market for the $1k Resolve Dongle. They want a need a control surface that works. If they can't get it, they will look at the competition.

There are other cameras and other ecosystems that get along with third-party control surfaces. If BMD wants to stay competitive in the small independent market, they're going to have to address this. Before Adobe or Apple decides to get extra competitive.

The most efficient way to do it is to let third parties like Tangent do the mapping themselves. I hope BMD gives Tangent mapping and complete hardware control over Resolve.
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Paul Provost

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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jun 27, 2014 3:25 am

You're forgetting about a big sector. All the production companies and agencies
That no longer go to post houses. Rooms full of rows of desks packed in with offline and assistant editors, and
Vfx guys and maybe one half done online room with the bare essentials for color and finishing - maybe an Avid MC color panel if you're lucky. Only audio still being done out of house. Tons of this. Tons.
Not a lot of Resolve panels in these situations.
But a lot of editing...
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popcornflix

Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jun 27, 2014 6:29 am

Paul Provost wrote:You're forgetting about a big sector. All the production companies and agencies
That no longer go to post houses.


I include them in "small independents."

Paul Provost wrote:Not a lot of Resolve panels in this situation.
But a lot of editing...


I disagree. Whenever I see a prodco or agency like this, they have a control surface -- usually from Tangent. In fact, the first time I saw a Tangent Element being used was in a promo for an agency that was taking its post production in-house.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jun 27, 2014 7:07 am

Paul Provost wrote:Paul (now with carpel tunnel color grading mouse wrist)

Trust me, I used the full-size panels on the daVinci 2K and Baselight for a decade, and I've had carpal tunnel operations twice. (Seriously.) It's an occupational hazard.

I suspect remapping all the commands would be infinitely complicated, time-consuming, and expensive, but I could see BMD providing an SDK for people who wanted to develop 3rd-party control surfaces. That way, it'd be up to the panel makers to do the work.

I've said before: I know a major A-list colorist in LA (who's done three $100M+ feature D.I.'s so far this year) who works entirely with a mouse and a keyboard. So a lot boils down to what you're used to. I have to admit, I'm 50% control surface and 50% mouse with my set-up. It's not fast, but it gets the job done. With the full daVinci surface, your muscle memory can get to the point where you fly through the session, hardly pausing to think or look down at the buttons.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jun 27, 2014 7:34 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
Paul Provost wrote:With the full daVinci surface, your muscle memory can get to the point where you fly through the session, hardly pausing to think or look down at the buttons.


This is why i would consider getting big panels. The speed and from it some creativity as less you think of the tool more you think of the "feel".

Have to wait for a year or so to get one but until then elements would be ok alternative.
Last edited by Margus Voll on Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jun 27, 2014 3:32 pm

With the elements properly mapped, especially with an extra buttons panel you could fly as well.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jun 27, 2014 4:01 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:I've said before: I know a major A-list colorist in LA (who's done three $100M+ feature D.I.'s so far this year) who works entirely with a mouse and a keyboard. So a lot boils down to what you're used to.

Major a list artists working on tent pole features have assistants. Sometimes lots of them. If that's how he likes to grade, great. Try doing a hour long reality show alone in a day with a mouse. (And I don't mean in avid symphony just setting black and white points!)
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jun 27, 2014 4:57 pm

Margus and Marc, I respect your work and appreciate your opinion!

That being said if your market can afford you the full panels then you should by buy them and not post in this thread as this clearly doesn't apply to you. The point we are trying to make is that it has been almost 4 years since Version 8 came out and third party panels were supported. In that time the mapping has barely changed and as the software has vastly improved the mapping has gotten worse and worse. We are at the point now with R11 where we might as well throw out everything except for the wheels panel. It is a hinderance to the users that want to go beyond the lite version paradigm but cannot afford the full panels.

As Paul pointed out your friend may have the luxury to use a keyboard and mouse at his $1000.00/hr rate 200-300 hrs per film. He could also ask for a panel if he wanted one and he would get it, if it isn't already sitting in front of him. He has a choice, we do not! This is not that market so comparing us to him is completely pointless and belittles our effort of cordially asking Peter to help make our work and time spent working more efficient, creative and less painful when using the panels. Peter stated on Creative Cow 2 years ago that BMD would not be releasing a smaller panel! BMD clearly knows there business and could find a multitude of way to monetize implementing custom mapping through the tangent mapper. There is a need for this so users will pay, between the wave and element panels out there, there is a market.

Marc, its sad to hear that you have had 2 operations due to the work and if manufacturers had the best interests of their customers in mind (ergonomics) this shouldn't have happened.

If anybody is curious to see just how well the element panel can function take a look at how Nucoda has mapped the elements panels. Saying that it is Incredibly well thought out and implemented would be a gross understatement. Yes it is that good!
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jun 27, 2014 6:10 pm

So maybe in one point we would see competition on mid level with panels etc.
That is good in a sense as customers usually win from that.

Getting big panel for me will be big deal but i have reason to consider getting one
and that is the speed that Elements do not give me now.
Sure with nice mapping that would be possible and i would use it as i do not see
need in near future for linux system.

So mixed emotions.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jun 27, 2014 8:30 pm

Paul Provost wrote:With the elements properly mapped, especially with an extra buttons panel you could fly as well.


WHY DO WE KEEP HAVING THIS CONVERSATION? I guess the "mid level" (which almost ALL post is now) people want this!

I paid (gasp) for an actual dongle (gasp) before the release in 2010 and have been using it since. I've had a Wave and now have the Element and there is no way I can justify spending $30k on the BM panels, nor do I want to since I would loose portability.

If you need more revenue BM, just charge another $1k to the people that want mappable panels and f'all the freeloader lite kiddies. As an actual paying customer, I think the paid for product should start to separate itself from the free version.

Am I mad, not really, just tired of wasting time asking for the same thing over and over.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSat Jun 28, 2014 2:38 am

Hi all, maybe I was not clear enough. We will review all the third party panel maps. Adding mapping would give you no new features as the interconnect for each function to the app would still need to be implemented and that's not trivial. None match the BMD panel protocol so each function for each panel needs separate work.The current third party panel feature sets are similar and users of each panel model would like their panel updated so there's complexity in adding for multiple panels... And there are plenty of Avid and JLCooper and Wave users too. So I hear the requests, they are not dismissed, there's no conspiracy, and we are reviewing what can be included in our development plan and what will slip if we do.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSat Jun 28, 2014 3:28 am

Thanks for the additional clarification Peter.
I was afraid of something like this. So there are no direct "hooks" that the mapper software can grab ahold of to take control of Resolve parameters? (I'm not a programmer so I don't know exactly how that works) but it appears that BMD panels are "hard wired" to the parameters and third party panels are manually connected one control at a time, one panel at a time, thus the difficulty?
So it is fundamentally different than the way say, Apple Color allowed control of parameters? In Color's case (or apparently the case in Film Master, Scratch, etc.) it just passes control to JLCooper or Tangent software, and the user can willy nilly match button to parameter.
It appears this functionality would require a deep re write of code in Resolve to separate the BMD panels from the mapping or something like that?
Bummer. That sounds like doomsday device. As in NGTH.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSat Jun 28, 2014 3:35 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
Paul Provost wrote:Major a list artists working on tent pole features have assistants. Sometimes lots of them. If that's how he likes to grade, great. Try doing a hour long reality show alone in a day with a mouse. (And I don't mean in avid symphony just setting black and white points!)

Oh, that would be no fun. Heck, those are no fun having the full panels!


Harris Charalambous wrote:Marc, its sad to hear that you have had 2 operations due to the work and if manufacturers had the best interests of their customers in mind (ergonomics) this shouldn't have happened.

Naaaa, there are tons of secretaries and factory workers who run into the same thing. Crap happens, and I don't blame anybody. You just move on with life as best you can. I'm much more careful with my hands today than I was in the 1980s and 1990s.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSat Jun 28, 2014 5:38 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
Marc Wielage wrote:
Paul Provost wrote:You just move on with life as best you can.



That is a good model for life there!
Margus Voll, C.S.I.

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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSat Jun 28, 2014 2:26 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote:Hi all, maybe I was not clear enough. We will review all the third party panel maps. Adding mapping would give you no new features as the interconnect for each function to the app would still need to be implemented and that's not trivial. None match the BMD panel protocol so each function for each panel needs separate work.The current third party panel feature sets are similar and users of each panel model would like their panel updated so there's complexity in adding for multiple panels... And there are plenty of Avid and JLCooper and Wave users too. So I hear the requests, they are not dismissed, there's no conspiracy, and we are reviewing what can be included in our development plan and what will slip if we do.


I appreciate the response and understand it would take engineering time. That's why I would be happy to pay more for it, not trying to get more for less but more for more.

I remember a file in the old DUI that a user could modify and change names and functions on the "big panel." I know this was a closed system and had a different communication method between the SGI and the panels but I can still hope!

Thanks for all you have done, we're spoiled but still want what we want! I remember using one of the first Resolve systems as a demo artist for a telecine manufacturer (RIP) in 2007 and hoping one day to have such power and control at my command everyday. Now I do for 10% of what that system cost at 4k res. Unfortunately, the rates have followed the same path!
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSat Jun 28, 2014 7:58 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote:We will review all the third party panel maps.


Thank you again, Peter.


Peter Chamberlain wrote:Adding mapping would give you no new features as the interconnect for each function to the app would still need to be implemented and that's not trivial. None match the BMD panel protocol so each function for each panel needs separate work.


As an immediate interim measure, please release the entire BMD panel protocol. This would allow 3rd party developers to create a translator app that would output BMD protocols from third-party panel input.

Peter Chamberlain wrote:The current third party panel feature sets are similar and users of each panel model would like their panel updated so there's complexity in adding for multiple panels... And there are plenty of Avid and JLCooper and Wave users too. So I hear the requests, they are not dismissed, there's no conspiracy, and we are reviewing what can be included in our development plan and what will slip if we do.


I understand that engineering problem. BMD should put an end to the stop-gap solutions, and implement a more efficient approach.

BMD should offer a comprehensive SDK/API for hardware control of Resolve. This would be a better investment of resources in the long run. It would eliminate the custom-tailoring for individual manufacturers and panel models. It would take third-party panel mapping largely off BMD's to-do list, while offering superior customer benefit.

Please consider this as a strategic alternative.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSat Jun 28, 2014 9:05 pm

Before I say anything on this age old topic, let me first say that I have a huge appreciation for the whole team at BMD and that v11 is really astounding in terms of how big of a leap it represents in a relatively short development cycle. I have to doubt that the engineering and programming resources at BMD are stretch thin to their limits. Before I start what will undoubtedly come off as whining, let me just congratulate the whole BMD team on an amazing release for v11, and also say that I am continually impressed by the attention that the whole support and development team put into monitoring the various forums, and providing thoughtful responses to everyones thoughts and postings.

Ok so I got that out of the way... NOW:

Please please please for the love of god improve the Element mapping.
Please Please use the Tangent HUB software.

I use Resolve, Assimilate Scratch, and Nuke, all of which I have mapped to my tangent elements. I also often bring my tangent elements with me in a small pelican case when I freelance at facilities which don't have a full set of panels. None of this is possible with the large Resolve panels. The size issue, and the cross-platform issue both are both a big deal for me. Obviously most users, more important is the cost issue. I would happily pay $15K to be able to map my element panels using the tangent HUB software.

I understand that there are a lot of third party panels out there, but I think you will find that if you listen to who is making the most noise about this issue, it is almost ENTIRELY owners of element panels.

The Elements are by far the best third party panels out there (I know some JL cooper users will disagree but they are a small minority). There are a LOT of users out there for whom the BMD panels are simply not suitable either due to size, lack of cross platform support, or cost.

These users almost all end up using elements. But they have horrible horrible mapping in resolve.

As a counter point, the mapping of the elements in Scratch is very very good by default, and can be customized by the user very easily. They had this working within months (maybe even weeks) of the release of the elements many years ago.

Obviously there are engineering issues at play here that I have no understanding of, but I can assure you that whatever it takes to get resolve talking to the tangent HUB software will be time well spent from an engineering standpoint.

This segment of the market is getting a little more crowded with FilmMaster, SpeedGrade, and Scratch, etc.

Having no decent solution for panel mapping other than investing in the $30K panels will without doubt push users to other platforms.

Ok thats enough I suppose, I'm starting to beat a dead horse.

Peter, thank you again for taking the time to read these postings and respond sensibly, It is hugely appreciated.

best
-Nat Jencks
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSat Jun 28, 2014 9:48 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote: It's therefore considered along with the long feature request list and I tend to bias the development where a broad number of users can gain the most benefit.


BMD may well have done its own research into the demographics of the user base, but based on a very very small sample over at LGG, I'd say that supporting tangent HUB remapping would definitely fall under the umbrella of a feature which would help a broad number of users with a large benefit.

The tanger users represent 78% of those responding (I know this is a ridiculously small sample size, and the LGG user base is perhaps not representative, but still).

Just more fuel on the fire.

Thanks again for taking the time to thing about this issue!
-N
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSun Jun 29, 2014 4:44 am

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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSun Jun 29, 2014 7:31 am

Peter Chamberlain wrote:None match the BMD panel protocol so each function for each panel needs separate work.

Sounds like the 'best' solution is for a smaller panel from BMD aimed at the Tangent Element and equivalent markets that allows custom mapping using the BMD panel protocol. :D Everyone using Resolve daily would be crazy not to get one, and at least then its BMD cannibalizing the bigger panel, not another company. ;)
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSun Jun 29, 2014 7:41 am

On customers side does not matter much how to do it as it just should work and be easy to use.

I just pointed the idea of modularity as i have seen on databases on other server side programming
to keep thinks sort of universal so if the parameters mach it is relatively simple to connect
different parts of the program to talk each other.
And we did have big big databases wit really complicated data.

Do not know if that is possible at all but on paper it should make thing so much more flexible.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSun Jun 29, 2014 2:12 pm

Hey Peter, thanks for the response and explanation. I will second the proposition of paying up to 1k for BMD to lay the ground work so the hooks exist and the tangent hub can be implemented for custom mapping moving forward.

I realize as you mention this may mean sacrificing some time and features. But at this stage in time the hardware side is so far behind that using resolve via the panel has become incredibly inefficient in comparison to what it could be. Further we cannot use the new features because of the time it would take to implement them via mouse, keyboard etc.

I would think that with a paid upgrade or full version only implementation will generate ample financial compensation to offset any lose in time.


Thanks again for all your hard work, efforts and for listening.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSun Jul 06, 2014 7:33 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote:Hi all, maybe I was not clear enough. We will review all the third party panel maps. Adding mapping would give you no new features as the interconnect for each function to the app would still need to be implemented and that's not trivial. None match the BMD panel protocol so each function for each panel needs separate work.The current third party panel feature sets are similar and users of each panel model would like their panel updated so there's complexity in adding for multiple panels... And there are plenty of Avid and JLCooper and Wave users too. So I hear the requests, they are not dismissed, there's no conspiracy, and we are reviewing what can be included in our development plan and what will slip if we do.


Hi Peter, at the risk of beating a dead horse here, I just want to be crystal clear about this.

No one is asking for new features to be mapped to the element. All anyone wants is for the basic functions that are already mapped to the Element to be mapped in a more logical manner.

For example, please let us have contrast and offset on the same page, this is fundamental to a common style of grading thats impossible with the current layout. And there's already an UNMAPPED knob right next to contrast and pivot.

In fact, 1/3 of the knobs on the element are completely unmapped. These are dying for commonly used functions like offset, blur radius, Log LGG or other controls to be mapped there.

Obviously everyone has a different "perfect mapping" but we can all agree that having 1/3 of the panels control knobs completely unmapped when critical functions are nested deep into alternate menus is crazy.

Certainly its true that you can't please all the people all the time, but this isn't a niche issue, is something that effects the majority of panel users (I think its safe to say that over half of panel users are using elements) and profoundly compromises the utility and efficiency of the software.

Again, the main point of this post is not to beat this very dead horse, but to clarify that what users are clamoring for is not having additional functions mapped to the element, but simple to have the functions which are already mapped to it layer out in a usable way.

My understanding of your post was that you were saying that it was very difficult to map NEW FEATURES to panels, but is it also very engineering intensive to simply change the placement of where functions are already mapped to the panels? That seems unlikely, although who knows!

Thanks again for taking the time to read these, its great to have folks from BMD monitoring these forums.
Congrats again on a fantastic v11 release.

Best-
-Nat Jencks
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostMon Jul 07, 2014 3:48 pm

Wait what? Of course we want new features. Like the new key parameters. And nr. And everything that will fit on all the unused buttons and knobs. But I think any changes require same amount of work.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostMon Jul 07, 2014 6:13 pm

natjencks wrote:No one is asking for new features to be mapped to the element. All anyone wants is for the basic functions that are already mapped to the Element to be mapped in a more logical manner.


Speak for yourself, Nat.

I strongly disagree with Nat's statement. Many of us want BMD to provide a comprehensive hardware control SDK/API so third party manufacturers can map their control panels themselves.

That will mean users will be able to customize and augment their control surfaces to fit their workflow. It will also mean that BMD will be responsible for maintaining a single API for all devices, instead of custom mapping individual devices.

Once BMD provides a comprehensive SDK/API, all kind of control surfaces will be available for Resolve. I'm not eager to pay more for this basic feature, but I would understand if BMD limited this to the dongled version of Resolve. One more reason to buy a seat or a camera.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostTue Jul 08, 2014 2:08 pm

Sorry Nat, but a simple remapping at this point isn't going to help. There are far too many new features missing on the panel in resolve 11. We need custom mapping with the hooks for the new features. Without these we might as well sell our panels and just use the wheels and a keyboard.

As Paul mentioned and a fewer other things there are
- no new controls for the keyer
- still no log controls
- sizing is limited to input sizing only
- no output blanking
- no mist or sharpening controls
- no color mixer controls
- no hue vector controls (desat red only)
- no toggling of tracking features - zoom, rotate etc
- no single frame tracking
- no auto key frame in timeline
- no manual cache clip
- no bypass grade toggle
- no offset mapping to a track ball
- no split screen image comparison
- copy & paste node
- paste color correction only
- better navigation I.e go to first or last clip
- functions are very inefficiently mapped, i.e adding a serial node or any node for that matter requires changing pages from the get go. This should be on the first page.

These are just the basics off the top of my head, there is so much that could be done if some time was put into making these panels work efficiently. Grading would become a whole new and much more pleasant experience.

Again I will happily pay for this!
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostFri Jul 18, 2014 7:37 pm

Peter Chamberlain wrote:It is not our intention to break the existing v10 controls on the Elements so we can look into those.


Peter, did the v10 Tangent Element controls get fixed in v11b2?
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSat Jul 19, 2014 2:05 pm

Unfortunately not! Still waiting and hoping...


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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSun Jul 20, 2014 5:45 am

Harris Charalambous wrote:As Paul pointed out your friend may have the luxury to use a keyboard and mouse at his $1000.00/hr rate 200-300 hrs per film.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but the days of even $700/hour are gone as far as I know, at least in LA. I know of some major, major feature post houses who are routinely doing $300/hour at the most. There are a few A-list colorists whose rooms are around the $1000/hour rate, but that would only be appropriate for summer tentpole movies and extremely high budgets. For TV series, you'd be lucky to get 1/4 of that.

Marc, its sad to hear that you have had 2 operations due to the work and if manufacturers had the best interests of their customers in mind (ergonomics) this shouldn't have happened.


Not necessarily. I know of a dozen other guys who used the same console who had no problems with it. A good buddy of mine who's using Baselight has some pretty bad problems with arthritis, and he gets by. I also had issues with the old Pogle panels back in the day, so they all have problems to some degree. A lot of it boils down to making sure you're not leaning on the panel for 12 hours a day. Sitting position is important. I'm much more careful today than I was in the 1980s and 1990s, so I actually feel better these days than I did 10 years ago.

As to 3rd-party panels: I had some fairly bad issues with the Avid MC Color panel a few weeks ago, and the (otherwise-helpful) Blackmagic support engineer admitted they don't even have one in his department in order to test it. I'm sympathetic to BMD, because they know their system works with their own products; the 3rd-party stuff has got to be a nightmare to deal with. I think there's things they can do to make it better, but it'd be a significant investment and time and money to pull it off, and I suspect the panels are low on their list of priorities.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSun Jul 20, 2014 2:14 pm

Marc, I am sympathetic to BMD and them supporting 3rd party panels too. That being said I also commend them for supporting so many panels.

But maybe that is where the issue lies. It would be sad for manufacturers to lose support for their products but this is what Assimilate, DV and until recently Mistika (now supports precision panels) all do. They could pick one panel they think is capable and reasonably priced and support just that one on 3rd party panel really well.

But then again nobody likes their choices limited so maybe a better solution is for BMD to develop and release some kind of SDK and let the manufacturers implement the hooks themselves. Hence better support for even more panels, now that would be even better. The bottom line is 3rd party panel support on Resolve is incredibly hindered and the most frustrating feature for users that want to work quicker and more efficiently. It desperately needs attention! In whatever form that takes. Honestly, I would be happy with any implementation of any solution as long as the panel supported was affordable, flexible and customizable. And as we keep saying we will happily pay for it just like we did for the dongles!!!

Peter and team have done an incredible job with Resolve and they continue to develop it very rapidly. Which is makes us all happy! However my hope is moving forward they will put more emphasis on refining the grading tools and the efficiency of those tools.


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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSun Jul 20, 2014 2:53 pm

BMD should release their own smaller, lower-cost panels, at, say, $5,000, bundled with a full Resolve license (preferably including Linux support as well as Mac/Windows). I think this would hit a sweet spot for a lot of facilities, and they'd move a ton of units. We'd buy immediately at this price. Maybe two sets.
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Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSun Jul 20, 2014 4:10 pm

Agreed Chris I would happily buy one too. That being said I think it's unlikely. Peter posted on creative cow a couple of years ago saying that BMD had no intention of releasing a smaller panel.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostSun Jul 20, 2014 8:26 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:As to 3rd-party panels: I had some fairly bad issues with the Avid MC Color panel a few weeks ago, and the (otherwise-helpful) Blackmagic support engineer admitted they don't even have one in his department in order to test it. I'm sympathetic to BMD, because they know their system works with their own products; the 3rd-party stuff has got to be a nightmare to deal with. I think there's things they can do to make it better, but it'd be a significant investment and time and money to pull it off, and I suspect the panels are low on their list of priorities.


Hopefully, BMD will see the comptetive advantage of better third-party panel support.

As I mentioned before, it would be a better strategic decision for BMD to publish their control surface codes, or develop a comprehensive API/SDK and leave the programming to the thrid-party panel developers. Instead of maintaining several different bespoke interfaces, BMD would just need to keep the single API current. Programming the panels would no longer be their responsibility.

This would also open up the market for custom interfaces. People could program all kinds of devices to control Resolve, including iPads and game controllers. All at no additional cost to BMD.

BMD should release their control surface codes, and develop an API/SDK for third party controllers.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostMon Jul 21, 2014 1:59 pm

Great point Lee.


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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Aug 07, 2014 4:24 pm

Having used both the full Panel, the Tangent Elements and the MC Color: all were incredibly useful for me.

The Tangent Element in it's existing mapping is so quick once you get used to it. You don't have to think and just concentrate on the image.

The BMD panel is a major step up, and allows more features to be accessed without a mouse (mainly curves, camera RAW functions and sharpen/ noise reduction.) but is big and a bit expensive.

The Element is great for freelancers: I own one because it can stay in my main suite, but then when I'm hired out of shop, it can come with me. Constantly hopping panels in my experience reduces efficiency, and reduces your confidence in a session. I'll stick to BMD and Elements for now.

Hope this helps anyone on the fence.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Aug 07, 2014 4:32 pm

seriously? at this point in resolve 11 I'm on the mouse 50% of the time.
I've had a set of Element since the day they came out and was disappointed then and it has only gotten worse.
This was back on Resolve 8, just moving from Apple color, where I could program my JL Cooper Eclipse any way I wanted.
I didn't even check, and thought Resolve would be the same way. Bad wake up call there. I thought everything would be programmable. My Eclipse was actually mapped a bit better than Element, but all the panels aside from BMD full panel are BADLY hobbled.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Aug 07, 2014 7:07 pm

Does anyone know if the Release Version of Resolve 11 fixes the Elements implementation? In beta, there were reports that 11 broke controls that worked in Resolve 10. BMD even said they intended to fix them.
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Re: Resolve 11 Beta & Tangent Elements Panels?

PostThu Aug 07, 2014 7:12 pm

Paul Provost wrote:all the panels aside from BMD full panel are BADLY hobbled.


There's no reason for BMD to hobble the other controllers, either. Nobody with $30k in their budget for a resolve suite is looking at a $5k DIY control surface. They want turnkey. They are a different kind of customer.

It's particularly frustrating that BMD say they support the Element control surface, and then they do it so badly. I really hope they come to their senses and release the codes or a comprehensive API/SDK.
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