Ursa Mini!

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Mark Wyatt

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Ursa Mini!

PostSun Apr 12, 2015 10:33 pm

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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostSun Apr 12, 2015 10:49 pm

I was hoping for this. Way to go BMD. Can't wait on official announcement, pricing etc. I may just have to upgrade now. That extra DR in 4Kis what I've been waiting for. It will be sad to see my BMCC go but this this is great news.
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostSun Apr 12, 2015 10:52 pm

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Jules Bushell

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostSun Apr 12, 2015 11:14 pm

This will sell well.

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Mark Wyatt

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostSun Apr 12, 2015 11:18 pm

Agreed. Depending on the price, I think this is the camera a lot of us have been waiting for.
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Josh Flori

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostSun Apr 12, 2015 11:39 pm

I have been holding out on buying a BM camera largely because I am still paying my way through school, but also because I knew the tech would improve rapidly over a couple years. I am graduating this fall. If the price checks out (which I'm sure it will) this could be the camera for me!

Also, does anyone else think it's comical how BM always uses exclamation points in every single one of their print ads, and in various places on their website as well? Who else in any professional industry does that? :lol:

I can't blame them, it's hard not to be enthusiastic about what they're doing.
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sean mclennan

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostSun Apr 12, 2015 11:42 pm

It's that mini sports a global shutter, I will be VERY interested!

Holden MacGroyen

Re: Ursa Mini!

PostSun Apr 12, 2015 11:55 pm

Hoping that both of these new cameras use inexpensive media -- not Cfast.
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Juan Moro

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostSun Apr 12, 2015 11:59 pm

They should have named it URSA Minor...
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brent k

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 12:11 am

Holden MacGroyen wrote:Hoping that both of these new cameras use inexpensive media -- not Cfast.

My guess is Cfast, for longevity. The reason is because SSD's are going to be changing rapidly over the next few years.
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Craig Marshall

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 12:21 am

A mini URSA is one thing but to really bring it alive, you'll need to save up for a fast, parfocal ENG style servo zoom a la Fujinon's 'Cabrio'. Let's hope NAB 2015 sees more 'affordable' Super 35 Servo Zooms coming to the market...
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Steve Lee Jean

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 12:24 am

Holden MacGroyen wrote:Hoping that both of these new cameras use inexpensive media -- not Cfast.


Know of any other media formats that can reliably do 4.6k raw?

Cfast 2.0 will drop in price. Patience.
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Csaba Nagy

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 12:49 am

They are using the new Fairchild sensor! :D

http://www.fairchildimaging.com/catalog ... s/ltn4625a
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Mike Halper

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 1:02 am

Hopefully 1) there's no FPN and 2) they're including an OLPF on the new sensor.
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Steve Lee Jean

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 1:10 am

Who knows. It appears to be the new fairchild sensor. Makers of the BMCC and Pocket sensors. The 15 stops likely means its a rolling shutter, but the new form factor likely means a much better processing and cooling system over the BMCC, BMPC, and Pocket, but not more than URSA. As long as it can perform slightly better than the pocket and bmcc, i see a winner. And oh thar fairchild image is so beautiful.
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Holden MacGroyen

Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 1:17 am

Steve Lee Jean wrote:Know of any other media formats that can reliably do 4.6k raw?

Yes. The SSDs that are used to record Kinefinity and Red 6K raw footage. Also, the drives used on the Alexa 65 (which must be more expensive than CFast).

In addition, there are other SSDs that have been used for awhile on hi-res machine vision systems.


Steve Lee Jean wrote:Cfast 2.0 will drop in price. Patience.

Patience has nothing to do with it. I just hope that these new cameras use inexpensive media. I am sure that as the price of CFast cards drop, so will other media. Thus, the other media will still be less expensive than CFast -- patience has nothing to do with it.
Last edited by Holden MacGroyen on Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Craig Marshall

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 1:18 am

sean mclennan wrote:It's that mini sports a global shutter, I will be VERY interested!


The Fairchild APS-C sensor alluded to in another post supports both global and rolling shutter.
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Steve Lee Jean

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 1:29 am

Holden MacGroyen wrote:
Steve Lee Jean wrote:Know of any other media formats that can reliably do 4.6k raw?

Yes. The SSDs that are used to record Kinefinity and Red 6K raw footage. Also, the drives used on the Alexa 65 (which must be more expensive than CFast).

In addition, there are other SSDs that have been used for awhile on hi-res machine vision systems.


Steve Lee Jean wrote:Cfast 2.0 will drop in price. Patience.

Patience has nothing to do with it. I just hope that these new cameras use inexpensive media. I am sure that as the price of CFast cards drop, so will other media. Thus, the other media will still be less expensive than CFast -- patience has nothing to do with it.


Red mags are way more expensive than SSDs, the minimags more than cfast 2. KINEmags are more expensive than SSDs. While kine accepts standard ssds they recommend their media. Because they're reliable accross all resolutions and speeds. The standard ssds are not. Many shoot MX and dragon at 7:1 ot 10:1 which will be less data than dng 1.5:1 @4.5k. The reason for proprietary media is not about price, its about reliability.

You dont want consumer reliability on a tool you shoot professionally on.

Ssds are not designed for multiple connections and add another point of failure to your system.
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Steve Lee Jean

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 1:34 am

Craig Marshall wrote:
sean mclennan wrote:It's that mini sports a global shutter, I will be VERY interested!


The Fairchild APS-C sensor alluded to in another post supports both global and rolling shutter.


Hopefully it stays rolling with a faster sensor readout. Every camera takes a massive sensitivity hit with a Global shutter, and even the big boys who preserve their DR numbers aren't exempt from this.

You're not going to get the 15 stops BMD is advertising with an electronic global shutter.
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BenjaminLebeau

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 1:42 am

Steve Lee Jean wrote:
Craig Marshall wrote:
sean mclennan wrote:It's that mini sports a global shutter, I will be VERY interested!


The Fairchild APS-C sensor alluded to in another post supports both global and rolling shutter.


Hopefully it stays rolling with a faster sensor readout. Every camera takes a massive sensitivity hit with a Global shutter, and even the big boys who preserve their DR numbers aren't exempt from this.

You're not going to get the 15 stops BMD is advertising with an electronic global shutter.

Exactly right. Also worth noting: were it a global shutter it would be on the banner, like it was with their first two 4K cameras.
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Holden MacGroyen

Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 2:34 am

Steve Lee Jean wrote:Red mags are way more expensive than SSDs, the minimags more than cfast 2. KINEmags are more expensive than SSDs.
I am fairly sure that neither Red nor Kinefinity have their own SSD manufacturing plant -- they are using off-the-shelf drives and marking them up.

By the way, you said that the KINEmags are more expensive. What is the actual price that Kinefinity asks for "their" SSDs?

Again, the machine vision world has been dealing with recording raw hi-res for awhile -- without using CFast cards.

Furthermore, 4.6K is not much of a stretch from 4K, so some of the latest SSDs used with 4K cameras might work.


Steve Lee Jean wrote:Ssds are not designed for multiple connections and add another point of failure to your system.
Nonsense. SSD raids have been proven to be fast and reliable.
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Norbert Bielan

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 2:37 am

A 240GB KineMAG costs $699...plus shipping and import taxes.
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Que Thompson

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 2:39 am

If this thing has frame rates higher than 60p in at other resolutions... This will be my next camera!
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Pavel Lavrov

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 2:39 am

Norbert Bielan wrote:A 240GB KineMAG costs $699...plus shipping and import taxes.


SSD raid would be much more cost effective.


PL
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Mike Halper

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 2:48 am

Holden MacGroyen wrote:I am fairly sure that neither Red nor Kinefinity have their own SSD manufacturing plant -- they are using off-the-shelf drives and marking them up.


It's clear you've never seen a Redmag in person or shot with a Red. As far as the actual solid state chips being used, there are a limited number of companies actually manufacturing those. Red, Kinefinity, Codex, Sony (for SxS cards), etc. get their chips from those companies to use in their recording media. There's a reason you don't see issues with lost or corrupted footage with Red cameras. They handpick the solid state chips, have their own interface on the mags and in the camera to ensure reliable recording even after hundreds of inserts and removals from the cameras and readers, and they are made out of metal for durability. That's what you pay extra for. It's worth the extra cost, and I'd rather BMD sell their own proprietary media to ensure reliability and durability.

With off-the-shelf media you can be prone to recording and offloading issues. Even with CFast being made of plastic you could see durability issues, but the interface and the chips used are designed for sustained speeds and repeated inserts/removals. SSDs aren't designed to be constantly inserted and removed into drive slots.
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 2:54 am

This URSA MINOR lights up my sky tonight! Would be even more amazing if they provide the option to use/purchase either global shutter or rolling shutter. I understand there would be trade-offs but there are times when global shutter is important, generally though higher useable dynamic range with a rolling shutter would be used more often.

URSA MINOR isn't a typo, everyone that has ever looked up at the night sky, at least in the northern hemisphere, will end up calling it that! In my mind, you don't call a bear of a camera URSA, without naming it's younger sibling, URSA MINOR.

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Last edited by rick.lang on Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pavel Lavrov

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 2:56 am

rick.lang wrote:This URSA MINOR lights up my sky tonight! Would be even more amazing if they provide the option to use/purchase either global shutter or rolling shutter. I understand there would be trade-offs but there are times when global shutter is important, generally though higher useable dynamic range with a rolling shutter would be used more often.


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If sensor supports global and rolling shutter then its a firmware thing. As long as hardware allows for it.
Would be nice to switch modes.


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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 3:00 am

Stoked! I'll take dynamic range over global shutter.
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 3:08 am

Pavel, the Fairchild sensor supports rolling shutter and global shutter, but I don't know yet if BMD will give us the option of course. We find out tomorrow! Darn it, hard not to use exclamation points when writing about this camera.


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Craig Seeman

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 3:24 am

So the price looks to be $2995

A few scant more details here.
http://eriknaso.com/2015/04/12/blackmag ... ne-camera/
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 3:28 am

And a Blackmagic EVF!


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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 3:30 am

$2995 for an ENG camera is amazing, but it's still $30K+ for a decent PL ENG lens. What's the point?
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 3:33 am

Craig Seeman wrote:So the price looks to be $2995

A few scant more details here.
http://eriknaso.com/2015/04/12/blackmag ... ne-camera/


That low of a price worries me a bit. I heard over on LGG that the price is around 5-7k US.
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Norbert Bielan

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 3:35 am

The MINI wouldn't cost more than the URSA?
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Mark Jamerson

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 3:37 am

I'm sold.. Where is the pre order button. I wish they had these cameras ready to ship upon announcement :(
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 3:38 am

Price seems really good $2995
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Steve Lee Jean

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 4:45 am

Holden MacGroyen wrote:
Steve Lee Jean wrote:Red mags are way more expensive than SSDs, the minimags more than cfast 2. KINEmags are more expensive than SSDs.
I am fairly sure that neither Red nor Kinefinity have their own SSD manufacturing plant -- they are using off-the-shelf drives and marking them up.

By the way, you said that the KINEmags are more expensive. What is the actual price that Kinefinity asks for "their" SSDs?

Again, the machine vision world has been dealing with recording raw hi-res for awhile -- without using CFast cards.

Furthermore, 4.6K is not much of a stretch from 4K, so some of the latest SSDs used with 4K cameras might work.


Steve Lee Jean wrote:Ssds are not designed for multiple connections and add another point of failure to your system.
Nonsense. SSD raids have been proven to be fast and reliable.


I can't seem to be able to get through to you with my points, or you didn't care to read my post carefully. Fair enough I suppose.

I understand your wish for cheaper media, it would benefit everyone. But we are seeking reliable, and therefore specialized and likely more expensive, forms of media, with with professional contacts, so we don't film a $20,000 scene and have corrupt or inaccessible media footage later. If you actually work in the professional world, this would not be an issue for you.

I have already explained that other proprietary forms of media at the level of URSA and the URSA mini are more expensive than Cfast 2.0. Also SSD's that actually work in with the BMPC are not likely to work considering that the MINI will shoot 60p at 4k.
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marccollet

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Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 4:59 am

What would you guys do, buy a mini or a monster URSA at this moment? I'd like to know the specific differences
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 5:13 am

marccollet wrote:What would you guys do, buy a mini or a monster URSA at this moment? I'd like to know the specific differences


No one knows yet because BMD hasn't released any details yet.
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 5:15 am

Ok...I will wait then....and how about now? Any news?
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 5:40 am

Tomorrow morning 9:30am press conference Las Vegas time
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jaredhoy

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 5:51 am

I'd like to see an upgrade credit. My BMPC4K is but 3 months old...
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 6:53 am

rick.lang wrote:Would be even more amazing if they provide the option to use/purchase either global shutter or rolling shutter.


Don't want to rain on your parade, but I don't see that coming.

A) 15 stops is nothing you get out of global shutter mode and
B) if it would be global shutter, you can bet it would say so on the banner.
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 7:03 am

jaredhoy wrote:I'd like to see an upgrade credit. My BMPC4K is but 3 months old...


You bought a camera 3 months before NAB? And now you are asking for a upgrade credit - Seriousley?

brent k wrote:$2995 for an ENG camera is amazing, but it's still $30K+ for a decent PL ENG lens. What's the point?


The point is, that you save at least 20k on the camera, pretty obvious, isn't it?
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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 7:08 am

Sure it's shoulder mounted, by why call it an ENG camera?

Parfocal ENG zooms for s35 or larger is a new thing, a very new thing (given the relatively long history of ENG cams compared to what we have now). You were shooting 2/3" and B4 for ENG, and the vast majority still do.

Besides.... ENG functions, for a 4k Prores, or 4.6k RAW cam.... that's a little silly isn't it?
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 7:47 am

Frank Glencairn wrote:
jaredhoy wrote:I'd like to see an upgrade credit. My BMPC4K is but 3 months old...


You bought a camera 3 months before NAB? And now you are asking for a upgrade credit - Seriousley?

brent k wrote:$2995 for an ENG camera is amazing, but it's still $30K+ for a decent PL ENG lens. What's the point?


The point is, that you save at least 20k on the camera, pretty obvious, isn't it?


Agree with you 100% on both points, Frank!

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Jacob Pattinson

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 7:50 am

Has this just made my recently bought URSA obsolete? sure hope not .....

it has a viewfinder and its lighter ... maybe even cheaper and shoot the same quality ...
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 7:50 am

Steve Lee Jean wrote:... ENG functions, for a 4k Prores, or 4.6k RAW cam.... that's a little silly isn't it?


I don't think it's silly, especially if you change the initials to "EFP" (electronic field production).

For many productions, not just news & events, a truly good servo zoom lens can be worth its weight in gold -- or an affordable rental item in many cities.

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 8:09 am

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:
Steve Lee Jean wrote:... ENG functions, for a 4k Prores, or 4.6k RAW cam.... that's a little silly isn't it?


I don't think it's silly, especially if you change the initials to "EFP" (electronic field production).

For many productions, not just news & events, a truly good servo zoom lens can be worth its weight in gold -- or an affordable rental item in many cities.

-

Then it wouldn't be ENG ;)

I'm just being nit picky about how people use ENG loosely, just to reference "on the move" "shoulder mounted" "run n gun" type of shooting.

Electronic news gathering isn't live or event production. Which is my point, to the aforementioned poster. This platform isn't for just ENG lenses, it's obviously more than that, and as Frank mentioned, the savings are done. Glass will last nearly forever if you care for it, Cameras and sensors? Not so much.
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Lorenzo Straight

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Re: Ursa Mini!

PostMon Apr 13, 2015 8:20 am

Nice BMD. This is the one.
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