First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

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Daniel Greyson

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First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSat Jan 09, 2016 10:33 pm

Hello all,

For the next few days we are doing a live corporate IMAG show and we thought it'd be a great opportunity to test the new Ursa Mini and B4 adapter. We'll be testing a few different lenses (SD vs HD, extender vs none, etc), settings, etc. I'll be posting photos, screen grabs and short videos when I can to our Flickr feed. Feel free to ask any questions, bring up any concerns and make any suggestions and we will do our best to try them in a real world production environment.

The setup consists of:
  • (2) Ursa Mini 4K PL cameras w/ B4 adapters
  • Fujinon A20 and HA22 lenses
  • Rear zoom and focus controls
  • Sachtler V18 and V60 tripods
  • ATEM 1 M/E 4K switcher
  • Evertz 5600 master clock
  • (2) Hyperdeck Shuttles

So far the things we noticed:
  • The 12-pin Hirose lens connector supplies power to the lens and the VTR an RET buttons on both the lens handgrip and zoom demand control the camera functions as expected.
  • Out of the box with minimal settings (window mode, video dynamic range, 3200K WB, 180 shutter) the image looks GREAT! Very much on par with standard ENG/EFP cameras if not better, but see below:
  • There's no control of pedestal, RGB paint, LUT, etc in the cameras which makes it impossible to paint the image depending on shooting environments and to perfectly match to other cameras in a multi cam environment. Hopefully the remote control via ATEM is enabled soon.
  • The iris button does control the B4 lenses but it can't constantly "track" the iris like with other cameras and will only sample when pressed.
  • There are no displays of Iris or Zoom levels like with other cams. The only way to know what f-stop you are at is to physically look at the lens. I do hope this can be enabled via firmware updates.
  • The delay to the screens (post switcher) is 6 frames. That's about double of what we're used to with Sonys and Panasonics.
  • Sending a sync reference to the camera doesn't seem to do anything. There's no brief breakup of picture as you would expect as the camera re-clocks. Delay is the same 6 frames,
  • PGM input works and the switching is seamless when fed from switcher (which leads me to believe the camera does indeed reference to the SDI input).
  • The 2 SDI outputs are independent of each other which is GREAT. The rear out can be either UHD or HD. The front is always HD. Either can have overlays on or off which works out great for sending a clean feed to the switcher and character feed to an external monitor/viewfinder and/or engineer station to watch over the settings.
  • Timecode input does not seem to work. Regardless if fed LTC timecode or not, the recorded files are stamped with Time-Of-Day timecode derived from the camera's clock. The time display on the LCD is merely a counter and resets to 0 at every recording. During playback, the counter starts from 0 as well.
  • There's only 1 tally light and it's on the flip out screen and fairly small. There are no settings to turn it on or off. There are no settings to trigger it from the switcher (hopefully soon.) If let's say shooting with a larger on camera monitor with the flip-out closed, the tally light becomes pointless.
  • Seamlessly switching between battery and DC-in is not possible like with other cams. Camera has to be turned off first and the original power source removed.
  • Audio recorded is nice and crisp. We're feeding it a line level stereo pair from our Midas PRO1 and everything sounds great. There's full range present when playing back music, etc.
  • Playback works well but will only play back the media on the card that matches the currently set codec and resolution.
  • Despite what the current revision of the user manual says, the underside of the camera has 1/4" mounting points and not 3/8"
  • Edit 1/10/16 While it's possible to record to card with "Film" dynamic range and view on built in LCD monitor with "Video" dynamic range, the SDI outputs are tied to whatever the recording dynamic range is. It would be great to be able to record to card "Film" for further manipulation in post but output via SDI to a switcher as "Video" to be usable in a line cut. Since the LCD dynamic range can be adjusted independently, I feel a firmware update should be able to allow the independent SDI functionality.

I think that's about it for now. More updates to come!

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Last edited by Daniel Greyson on Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jose Lomeña

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSat Jan 09, 2016 10:46 pm

Thank you so much for the info.

Only one question for now.

What mean the output has 6 frame delay?. Can you measure diference from sony with sync and ursa without?. It must be only one frame or two at worst case. Did you connect input from atem and set sync from atem?.

Thanks,

Jose.
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSat Jan 09, 2016 11:18 pm

6 frames is horrendous. How on earth is that supposed to be any use for imag? Can you clarify what framerate you are running and the delay in milliseconds on the camera output? How much delay is in the viewfinder?

Is the camera you have a beta version? Obviously there will be firmware updates anyway but it seems unlikely that such updates can do much about a significant delay.


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Denny Smith

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 1:08 am

Tom, they are using Mini 4K PL cameras, which are in shipping, doubt it is a "beta" camera, the Mini 4.6 is in "Beta" testing models now.

Interesting that ATEM control is not working yet. Do you have remote Iris control of the B4 lens?
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Daniel Greyson

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 1:50 am

Yes, we were fairly disappointed by the latency. Had to delay the PA audio by quite a bit to match.

We derived the 6 frame number by shooting the projector screen and the subject shown on the projector at the same time, then counting the number of frames between the subject and screen. See attached image.

We are shooting in UHD (the lens extender engaged) at 29.97 and outputting HD to switcher. Also tested in window mode to see if the UHD-->HD downconversion may have added extra latency but figures were the same.

We just did a test where we connected the camera directly to the projectors bypassing the switcher and the delay was 5 frames. Obviously the ATEM introduces 1 frame of latency as expected.

Does this forum not support linking of any kind? I would love to post some DNG frames as well as ProRes stills.

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Tom_Bassford

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 5:00 am

OK so that's total system delay and is quite likely to be 4 frames in the projectors. I presume you are not seeing this 5 frames of delay in the camera viewfinder?




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Daniel Greyson

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 6:57 am

Tom_Bassford wrote:OK so that's total system delay and is quite likely to be 4 frames in the projectors. I presume you are not seeing this 5 frames of delay in the camera viewfinder?


We have not measured that yet but with our Panasonic ENG cams the delay is 3 frames, same projectors, so the Ursas are definitely adding a few additional frames.
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Daniel Greyson

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 7:51 am

Denny Smith wrote:Interesting that ATEM control is not working yet. Do you have remote Iris control of the B4 lens?


Unfortunately, not yet. I am assuming (hoping) that future firmware updates will add a "Studio Settings" page to the Ursa Mini's menu, similar to the Blackmagic Studio Cameras:
Image

Once a camera number can be assigned, each Ursa Mini should be able to distinguish control signals meant for it in the SDI return signal. This should hopefully enable reference and PL settings as well. Speaking of, while the Ursa Mini does not have a dedicated PTT button like the Studio Camera, it does have two function buttons which hopefully could be assigned to PTT in a firmware update. Also, it should be fairly simple to make the return button on the lens/zoom demand act as PTT (I've seen this done with fiber/triax camera chains). Personally, I would rather have that than return video, which we rarely use.

Speaking of return video, I just confirmed that switching to PGM (whether with the PGM button on the camera body itself or via RET buttons on lens/zoom control) switches the signal respectively on the front SDI output. This allows an external monitor or viewfinder to also receive return signals as expected (something not explained on the manual).

Some photos of our Ursa Mini build:
Image
Image
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Jose Lomeña

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 10:03 am

panasonic has 3 frames and ursa introduce 3 more frames, is this correct?
Did you test at 60P or only 60i?

Other question is.

You have two lens, fujinon A, and fujinon HA. Are both compatible with ursa?. Because on micro studio camera fujinon A are not compatible for iris control.

Thanks,

Jose.
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Daniel Greyson

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 10:38 am

That is correct, Jose. We only tested 1080p30. The Ursas cannot do 60i and our projectors cannot do 1080p60, so 30p is the best medium.

Yes, both are B4 mount 2/3" glass so both are compatible. The difference is A series are old "SD" glass while "HA" are Fujinon's modern "premier" HD glass. The HAs are modern built and have better elements, coatings, etc andthus are supposed to resolve more resolution.
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Jonas Bengtson

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 11:36 am

I'm getting 3 of these to test at 1080p5994 in about a couple of weeks. I know the CCU functionality isn't enabled yet but at least i can provide some accurate frame timings.

It really feels that Blackmagic is starting to get there, this camera is a step in the right direction and the firmware is starting to shape up, albeit lacking some key features.

For reference, i had the AJA CION in to test with for a couple of days and oh boy Blackmagic has passed them. The thing takes AGES to boot compared to the BM cameras and is way more unintuitive to work with. Was really expecting more from that camera.
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Jose Lomeña

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 11:56 am

Daniel Greyson wrote:That is correct, Jose. We only tested 1080p30. The Ursas cannot do 60i and our projectors cannot do 1080p60, so 30p is the best medium.

Yes, both are B4 mount 2/3" glass so both are compatible. The difference is A series are old "SD" glass while "HA" are Fujinon's modern "premier" HD glass. The HAs are modern built and have better elements, coatings, etc andthus are supposed to resolve more resolution.



You can control fujinon A iris from the camera right?.

We can not with our micro studio.
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 4:42 pm

Thanks Daniel,
Personally, I find all of this very encouraging as it relates to our studio upgrade plans. The non interlace still remains a concern and I guess we will have to install an "unwanted" box between our studio and master control to deal with the progressive signal. I have very little doubt BM will take care of the CCU full functionality.
Daniel, might I ask your opinion of the image quality between the SD and HD Fujinon lenses you are using, thanks?
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 7:05 pm

[quote="Jose Lomeña"
You can control fujinon A iris from the camera right?.

We can not with our micro studio.[/quote]

The Studio cameras does not have the B4 lens control connection on it, that the URSA Mini PL does, which is why you can not control a B4 lens from the camera or ATEM CCU. I think BM should add this B4 lens connection to the BM Studio cameras, with a Ver. 2, or ?
Last edited by Denny Smith on Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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lotech

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 9:13 pm

Thanks so much for this write up. Will follow with interest.
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Daniel Greyson

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 9:28 pm

Jonas Bengtson wrote:I'm getting 3 of these to test at 1080p5994 in about a couple of weeks. I know the CCU functionality isn't enabled yet but at least i can provide some accurate frame timings.

I would love to provide more accurate frame timings as well. May you suggest the best way of going about that?

Jose Lomeña wrote:You can control fujinon A iris from the camera right?.

We can not with our micro studio.

Actually I stand corrected it seems with an A lens the Iris button has no effect and the Iris "display" is gone from the screen. With the HA lens the iris control is fairly limited - see one of the bullet points in my original post.

Carlos Hervas wrote:Thanks Daniel,
Personally, I find all of this very encouraging as it relates to our studio upgrade plans. The non interlace still remains a concern and I guess we will have to install an "unwanted" box between our studio and master control to deal with the progressive signal. I have very little doubt BM will take care of the CCU full functionality.
Daniel, might I ask your opinion of the image quality between the SD and HD Fujinon lenses you are using, thanks?


Personally, I have no problem with the Ursa Mini being all progressive, I even think it's for the best. While interlacing signaling still remains dominant in broadcast, it's a dying breed. After all, Rec. 2020, the successor to Rec. 709, defines ONLY progressive signaling, not interlaced. The future is progressive.
Producing content in 1080p60 should be a great medium to be both backwards and forwards compatible. 1080p60 can be easily split into fields for 1080i60 while retaining its temporal benefits (albeit losing half of the vertical resolution per instance of time), it can be scaled down to 720p60 also keeping its temporal benefits and for web, etc, delivery it could be decimated to 1080p30 retaining full resolution but of course losing the temporal benefits of 60p acquisition.

As far as lenses, we normally use HD glass during our productions as that is what our clients expect and pay for. However in this particular instance we grabbed an old SD lens for curiosity sake realizing that HD glass may be out of reach for a lot of Ursa Mini's consumer base due to its (still) high cost.
Even Grant Petty himself mentioned in the video he posted after IBC 2015 that a lot to older B4 SD lenses can be had rather cheaply (he even mentioned eBay!)

There were definitely quality differences between the two, the HD lens was indeed sharper and had 0 chromatic aberration while the SD had quite a lot, but, having said that, the SD lens performed better than I had expected and in non-critical applications such as corporate IMAG I doubt the audience could really tell the difference between the two. Of course besides quality differences in the optics, modern lenses have much better, faster accurate servos (such as Fujinon DigiPower) which are very helpful when framing and tracking close-ups of people on stage 100'+ feet away.

Again, if a moderator could enable my account to post links on this forum, I would love to share some screen grabs and video footage with everyone.
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 9:48 pm

I think you need 5 or 10 posts to be able to add links.

Feel free to start a thread on atemuser.com where you can post links from the get go.

What grant says in videos and emails has sometimes been a little wide of the mark when it comes to specifics. In this case I really hope they implement lens control of all B4 glass, not only recent expensive HD lenses. The live music imag I do can't afford top end lens costs, and we often end up with older 80x SD lenses as extreme closeup from FOH is more important than lack of CA.

I'd be really interested to see a full frame 4k grab to better understand how much (if at all) the image circle has been expanded by the BMD B4 mount.


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Jose Lomeña

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 10:02 pm

Denny Smith wrote:[quote="Jose Lomeña"
You can control fujinon A iris from the camera right?.

We can not with our micro studio.

The Studio cameras does not have the B4 lens control connection on it, that the URSA Pink PL does, which is why you can not control a B4 lens from the camera or ATEM CCU. I think BM should add this B4 lens connection to the BM Studio cameras, with a Ver. 2, or ?


Micro studio camera has a b4 lens support with correct cable.

Blackmagic support on b4 lens is digital. Only digital comunication with lens. Analog lens need 0-8v analog for control of iris. Blackmagic can not provide this and for this reason we need a converter between digital blackmagic to analog lens. This converter don't exist yet. Only expensive glass is supported.

Thanks for confirmation daniel.

Regards

Jose.
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 10:08 pm

Can people stick to talking about one camera per thread please?

The URSA has a 12pin B4 lens control socket and so should be able to control analog lenses if / when BMD implement this.

The micro studio camera needs the B4 control box which doesn't exist yet, but blackmagic have hinted that thus will be produced in the future (personally I think they shouldn't bother and should just make a proper 2/3rd inch sensor version of the micro studio with a native b4 mount and control socket) we will probably have to wait until NAB to see what they might offer as a solution.


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Jose Lomeña

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 10:16 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:Can people stick to talking about one camera per thread please?

The URSA has a 12pin B4 lens control socket and so should be able to control analog lenses if / when BMD implement this.

The micro studio camera needs the B4 control box which doesn't exist yet, but blackmagic have hinted that thus will be produced in the future (personally I think they shouldn't bother and should just make a proper 2/3rd inch sensor version of the micro studio with a native b4 mount and control socket) we will probably have to wait until NAB to see what they might offer as a solution.


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We can control same lenses with ursa and with micro studio. Why do you think connection is different?.

Actually you can control any digital lens with micro studio too without any "box", only need to connect the correct pin between micro studio and lens.

No problem to soeak about micro studio on other thread.

Sorry for my off topic. My recommendation is, don't spect support of b4 analog lens with ursa mini.

Regards

Jose.
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Tom_Bassford

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First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 10:21 pm

I think the connection is different because the connection is different. The URSA has a 12pin B4 (hirose) connection. The micro has a 15pin HD15 connection. You need a conversion box / plug between HD15 and 12pin for the micro.

As the URSA has the 12pin connector on the body it is possible (and really should be the case) that it supports analog lens control.

Why do you think that URSA will not support analog lenses???


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Jose Lomeña

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 10:32 pm

i didn't see any ursa mini inside photo. But if the "analog lens" pins on de hirose are not connected it never will have analog lens control. If anyone open it, please advice.

Regards

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 10:38 pm

What i know of b4 blackmagic connection (comunication, not connector):

They support The B4 protocol, is standard based on ARIB BTA S-1005B.

Lens supported:
Canon B4 lenses with HJ, KJ..eX prefixes and CJ prefix will work.
Fujinon B4 lenses with HA, ZA prefix and UA prefix will work

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Jose.
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 10:45 pm

On the micro. But the URSA is a different camera which may have different features.

There isn't any point speculating further about this. Neither of us has a camera to look at / test so it's a nonsensical conversation.

The implication from the BMD videos about the URSA is they intend to support all B4 lenses.


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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 11:44 pm

We just did another simple delay test, this time shooting a monitor plugged directly into the Ursa Mini, this time there should be no system delay. And the direct out of camera into monitor delay is..... 4 frames!

See stills below. First one is UHD downconcerted out from rear SDI, second is HD window mode from rear SDI, third is HD window mode from front SDI. All 3 clips contain the same amount of delay. 4 frames.

Also, here is an attempt at posting a link to a single 4K DNG frame: http://we.tl/fitvVmZLQJ
Let me know if it works.

Image
Image
Image
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 11:50 pm

I'll be waqtching this thread closely as this setup is what I'm hoping to implement into our studio despite a few shortcoming which I suppose we can work around but we will be waiting for BM to implement full ATEM compatibility first.

I'm really curios about the B4 to PL adaptor. Whats the optical quality like throughout the HD lens zoom range? MTF services similar adaptor is substantially more expensive so I'm wondering what the quality of BM's glass is like.

Cheers
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostMon Jan 11, 2016 12:32 am

Daniel Greyson wrote:We just did another simple delay test, this time shooting a monitor plugged directly into the Ursa Mini, this time there should be no system delay. And the direct out of camera into monitor delay is..... 4 frames!

See stills below. First one is UHD downconcerted out from rear SDI, second is HD window mode from rear SDI, third is HD window mode from front SDI. All 3 clips contain the same amount of delay. 4 frames.

Also, here is an attempt at posting a link to a single 4K DNG frame: http://we.tl/fitvVmZLQJ
Let me know if it works.

Image
Image
Image



Thanks for the test!.

If you can make one more test i will be very happy.
Two cameras, panasonic or sony b4 eng in1, ursa mini in2 of atem, no genlock on any. Whats the latency between both?.
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostMon Jan 11, 2016 11:24 am

Do your cameramen find it hard to operate with this huge delay in the viewfinder? Obviously corporate isn't such a challenging environment for this but I can see it being a real issue if trying to pull into focus or capture fast action such as sports.


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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostMon Jan 11, 2016 2:25 pm

Is there any kind of delay in the fold out monitor?
Is there any delay if you use a lense that does not required the HD cropping?
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostTue Jan 12, 2016 5:51 am

Tony Spiraletti wrote:I'll be waqtching this thread closely as this setup is what I'm hoping to implement into our studio despite a few shortcoming which I suppose we can work around but we will be waiting for BM to implement full ATEM compatibility first.

I'm really curios about the B4 to PL adaptor. Whats the optical quality like throughout the HD lens zoom range? MTF services similar adaptor is substantially more expensive so I'm wondering what the quality of BM's glass is like.

Cheers


Tony, the BM B4 lens mount, it is not a B4/PL adapter, like the one Abel Cine or MTF Services makes. It is a lens mount that replaces the PL lens mount. You need to remove the PL mount and replace it with the B4 lens mount. The B4 mount does have an optical block that corrects the lens convergence to eliminate CA caused by not having a Prisim block In the camera. The B4 mount does not expand the image as the other B4 adapters do, it only corrects for the lens color convergence issues, so it costs less to make.

Some of the OP's Previous posts, pointed out the B4 mount allowed a sharp image, even wide open on the HD lenses that were tested:

"There were definitely quality differences between the two, the HD lens was indeed sharper and had 0 chromatic aberration while the SD had quite a lot, but, having said that, the SD lens performed better than I had expected and in non-critical applications such as corporate IMAG I doubt the audience could really tell the difference between the two. Of course besides quality differences in the optics, modern lenses have much better, faster accurate servos (such as Fujinon DigiPower) which are very helpful when framing and tracking close-ups of people on stage 100'+ feet away."
Denny Smith
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostTue Jan 12, 2016 6:34 am

It's also been suggested by a couple of people that URSA doesn't support SD lens control properly. Only recent digital controlled lenses work correctly with iris control from the camera.


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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostWed Jan 13, 2016 9:11 am

Tom_Bassford wrote:It's also been suggested by a couple of people that URSA doesn't support SD lens control properly. Only recent digital controlled lenses work correctly with iris control from the camera.


Yeah but SD lenses really suck so you shouldn't use them anyway.
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostWed Jan 13, 2016 9:38 am

Jonas Bengtson wrote:
Tom_Bassford wrote:It's also been suggested by a couple of people that URSA doesn't support SD lens control properly. Only recent digital controlled lenses work correctly with iris control from the camera.


Yeah but SD lenses really suck so you shouldn't use them anyway.


:? Some SD lens are better than HD lens at much lower price. This assumption that SD lens sucks and shouldn't use is really wrong.
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Jonas Bengtson

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostWed Jan 13, 2016 10:39 am

Jose Lomeña wrote:
Jonas Bengtson wrote:
Tom_Bassford wrote:It's also been suggested by a couple of people that URSA doesn't support SD lens control properly. Only recent digital controlled lenses work correctly with iris control from the camera.


Yeah but SD lenses really suck so you shouldn't use them anyway.


:? Some SD lens are better than HD lens at much lower price. This assumption that SD lens sucks and shouldn't use is really wrong.


No.
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostWed Jan 13, 2016 10:55 am

Jonas, the point of wanting to be able to use older lenses is to be able to create systems which are usable in situations where there isn't budget for HD lenses.
Let's take a rock and roll show as an example, it would be great to have a system which was a step up from using Sony EX1s, something with CCU control which would provide a quality that's comparable when viewed on the 10mm LED IMAG. This should be a natural environment for Blackmagic (even their "hero image" marketing shows such gigs) but suggesting that people who currently have camcorders which cost £4000 can upgrade to cameras with lenses which cost £15,000 isn't sensible. Blackmagic should better understand their users and simply put a fully compatible socket on their cameras. This would allow us to use the lenses suitable for our requirements and budgets.
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Jose Lomeña

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostWed Jan 13, 2016 11:04 am

Jonas Bengtson wrote:No.

;) I will not tell you what sd lens i'm refering to. :mrgreen: People like you make me very happy when i need to buy.
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostWed Jan 13, 2016 11:08 am

Image
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Carlos Hervas

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostWed Jan 13, 2016 3:11 pm

Jose, I would like to know your selection on great SD B4 lenses.
And I do agree with you, we have a couple of Canon J17ex's that are just beautiful. I dare to say they will outperform some of the newer budget HD zooms.
Carlos Hervas
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Jonas Bengtson

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostThu Jan 14, 2016 7:00 am

Tom_Bassford wrote:Jonas, the point of wanting to be able to use older lenses is to be able to create systems which are usable in situations where there isn't budget for HD lenses.
Let's take a rock and roll show as an example, it would be great to have a system which was a step up from using Sony EX1s, something with CCU control which would provide a quality that's comparable when viewed on the 10mm LED IMAG. This should be a natural environment for Blackmagic (even their "hero image" marketing shows such gigs) but suggesting that people who currently have camcorders which cost £4000 can upgrade to cameras with lenses which cost £15,000 isn't sensible. Blackmagic should better understand their users and simply put a fully compatible socket on their cameras. This would allow us to use the lenses suitable for our requirements and budgets.


Yeah i fully understand that but the reason the Blackmagic cameras can hit the price point they do is due to their approach to leave legacy behind. As in this case i think they just didn't implement the circuitry to read the analog values on pin 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 , 9 - instead implementing a simple RS-422 reader, implementing the protocols and implementing a fully digital interface, skipping the usually more expensive analogue part of the interface.

That's why i think that the camera isn't really suited for those implementations, where it would have to be more expensive, going even higher from the current price point to meet this goal of implementing the full lens standard. In addition to that, since this is analogue, writing your own code for an Arduino to convert the digital communication to one that suites the old standard is something you can do easily, helping Blackmagic to once again position their gears as platforms upon which independent 3rd parties can develop the custom solutions required for using SD B4 lenses for example.

This, and also the fact that no new lenses are produced which doesn't support the new standard, meaning you are spending time supporting an old stock of lenses that only will decline over time, compared to the investment of supporting a standard where the stock is still growing due to the amount of new lenses produced. There is a million of niche markets, going after the B4 is already one due to the high price of the lenses, going after lenses that isn't even produced anymore is an ever smaller one.

Again, compare the Blackmagic offering to what you get with for example a AJA CION and you will see just how much Blackmagic is able to cram into that small enclosure at an insane price point. The AJA CION isn't even close, although it has all the fluff such as network interface for controlling the camera etc.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostThu Jan 14, 2016 9:27 am

Does nothing work if you connect AUX1 to the SDI input of the Ursa Mini?

No Tally no control at all?

Because from the latest software update (30 october 2015) they say:

"What's new in Blackmagic Camera Setup 2.8.1
Blackmagic URSA Mini 4K
Enabled SDI In functionality"

Just to check :idea:
You run firmware 2.8.1 on the ursa's?
Did you configure a port for SDI camera control in the Atem software.
Did you hook up the sdi input from the camera to this port? (Aux 1, 2 or 3 normally)Not the PGM output ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 17, 2016 9:31 am

The SDI in functionality at the moment only displays video when the PGM button is pressed. The video in has to be the same as the record settings of the Ursa Mini. Out must equal in. There is currently NO CCU control, tally or talk back implemented. And to also confirm currently the Camera only supports Fujinon HA and ZA lens and HD canons.

Woody
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Denny Smith

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSun Jan 17, 2016 9:28 pm

BM has yet to add URSA Mini support to the ATEM CCU, from what I understand.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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YngveMoberg

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostFri Apr 22, 2016 7:48 pm

Can you please specify the framerate and resolution for the latency test?

Have anyone tested the latency when running 50p or 60p? If it sticks to 4frames this will mean half the latency in time (from 133ms in 30fps to 66ms in 60fps) - equivalent to only 2frames. Its not always a matter of "data processing time" but how many times each frame must be processed, giving increased latency in lower framerates though lower amount of data being processed.
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostThu Jun 02, 2016 11:28 am

Did the latest firmware update since the original tests in January (especially the recently released 3.2 which added 1080i50 on the SDI out and added CCU control for the URSA mini) change anything about the 4 frame delay on the SDI out?

Cheers,
Daniel
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Daniel Binder

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostFri Jun 03, 2016 3:32 pm

I just got this answer from blackmagic support:

I can confirm that the URSA Mini 4K does have a 3 frame delay on the SDI output. This hasn't changed with any firmware updates to the camera and is still true at 1080i50.
The Micro Studio Camera 4K has less then a 1 frame delay. This does make the combination of both cameras unsuitable in a studio environment. You could potentially use a video delay device to compensate for this and increase the Micro Studio camera to a three frame delay.
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostSat Oct 08, 2016 11:13 pm

I see that this forum is a few years old now, but has BMD fixed the delayed frame issue? We're looking at the URSA as an upgrade from our current cameras we have now. Our setting would most likely be 720, 59.94 for right now, and then eventually 1080, 30 or 59.94. Does the resolution and frame rate affect the camera?

Any news would be great. Thanks!

- Dariel
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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostMon Oct 10, 2016 6:10 pm

No, the UM still has a 3-frame delay, as far as I understand it. The delay is a result of video processing. Using the new FW 4.0 beta, I have not seen any comments on improved video delay. You could shoot BM a note on their support site to find out.
DS
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Peter_Szalontai

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostTue Feb 21, 2017 9:04 am

hi,

I have a question. Can I control the iris remotely on the B4 lensesor just PL lenses? I'd like to use this Skaarhoj 3rd party RCP for BMD ursa mini.
And we will use zoom and focus extension control.
The B4 remotely iris control option is very important to me.
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Denny Smith

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Re: First job with Ursa Mini and B4 adapter

PostTue Apr 04, 2017 5:56 am

BM has a list of B4 lenses that work with the Ursa Mi I B4 mount, and some of them have Iris servo control
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions

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