Hardware NDI

Questions about ATEM Switchers, Camera Converter and everything live!
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Phil Hadfield

  • Posts: 87
  • Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:34 pm
  • Location: UK

Hardware NDI

PostTue Jun 12, 2018 3:52 pm

I want to get NDI into my Atem Switcher. What is everyones cheapest ways. I dont want to have multiple laptops. I really want a cheap decoder box.
Offline

Dave Del Vecchio

  • Posts: 267
  • Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:25 am

Re: Hardware NDI

PostTue Jun 12, 2018 10:34 pm

There are a couple of NDI hardware encoder boxes (Newtek Connect Spark and BirdDog Studio), but I'm not sure there are any hardware NDI decoders out there yet.

There was some discussion on the VMix forums about using an Android media player box for this purpose, but evidently the NDI SDK does not support NDI decoding on ARM processors, it is only supported on x86:
https://forums.vmix.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=47022

But you could probably use something like an Intel NUC or other small form factor PC with an x86 processor and HDMI output for this purpose. There are also some Intel Atom-based media players that have Ethernet jacks and HDMI outputs available for $150 or so. I'm not sure if these are powerful enough for NDI decoding though. The Intel NUC line has versions with Core i3, i5, and i7 processors that I'm sure could do the job (although they are a bit larger and more expensive than the Atom-based units).

If you are looking for a more off-the-shelf solution, DVEO sells a few small NDI decoder boxes. The Mini D-Streamer NDI which is basically a small form factor computer with an Intel Celeron processor should work:
https://dveo.com/pdf/Mini-D-Streamer-ND ... asheet.pdf
https://dveo.com/broadcast-systems/NewTek-NDI.html
Offline
User avatar

Xtreemtec

  • Posts: 2682
  • Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:48 am
  • Location: The Netherlands

Re: Hardware NDI

PostWed Jun 13, 2018 9:37 am

Well cheap and NDI doesn't go well together.. Newtek charges a steap amount of money for there NDI transmit licenses..
While the SDK is free.. The moment you want to distribute it you walk into a license thing that you need to pay for every used NDI setup.. ;)


EDITED to not mis-inform users!
Last edited by Xtreemtec on Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, SONY FS7 4K, Ursa Broadcast 4K
Offline

GallerySienna

  • Posts: 54
  • Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:00 pm
  • Real Name: Mark Gilbert

Re: Hardware NDI

PostThu Jun 14, 2018 8:42 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:Well cheap and NDI doesn't go well together.. Newtek charges a steap amount of money for there NDI transmit licenses..
While the SDK is free.. The moment you want to distribute it you walk into a license thing that you need to pay for every used NDI setup.. ;)


With utmost respect to Xtreemtec, Its probably appropriate to correct misinformation, in the interest of providing accurate answers to Phil's original question.

There is *no* license fee to use NDI for any product, from any vendor. You don't pay a penny to distribute it.
Some NDI based products are commercial and there are many *free* ones too. In both cases you are not paying for NDI at all.

Integrating ATEM with NDI IP Video sources, can be done very inexpensively and really adds huge flexibility to your ATEM switcher workflows.

Windows:
NDI Transmit is no longer really a product, since its functionality now comes *free* with NDI 3.5. In any case its not the tool you would use to get from NDI into an ATEM. For that you would either use NewTek Connect (there is a 2 channel *free* version) with a BMD card, or NDI Studio Monitor (*free) to go via HDMI.

FREE Newtek Connect: http://39a80d0ea5e9de8065d9-bfe57ec74076e9cb0c74346d8bd35c21.r97.cf1.rackcdn.com/NewTek%20Connect.exe
FREE Newtek NDI Studio Monitor: https://www.newtek.com/ndi/tools/

macOS:
There are also low cost products on Mac such as NDI Outlet ($50) and NDI Outlet Multi (currently $99 on special) which work with BMD interfaces. http://www.sienna-tv.com/ndi/ndi-outlet.html and http://www.sienna-tv.com/ndi/ndi-outlet-multi.html

Ubuntu:
There are new products appearing for Ubuntu, such as NDI Source Multi which uses BMD cards to ingest SDI to NDI (up to 16 channels on one machine). There will also soon be NDI Outlet Multi for Ubuntu. These professional products are not expensive. http://sienna.tv/ndi
There is a forum entry with more info here https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=75248

There are now hundreds of NDI based products, and I am certain there are other options to get stuff into your ATEM, including various proprietary hardware boxes. You can take a look at a fairly comprehensive list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Device_Interface
Offline
User avatar

Zach Schuster

  • Posts: 53
  • Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:37 pm
  • Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: Hardware NDI

PostThu Jun 14, 2018 9:45 pm

GallerySienna is absolutely correct.

Now, Newtek DOES have some products to purchase that help converting sources from capture cards in to NDI feeds, as well NDI back to "physical" feeds on output cards. But even those have free and Pro versions.

What the OP is really asking is if there is an inexpensive turnkey NDI-to-SDI solution. At this time the answer is no. BirdDog's product does seem to have some decode option now in their latest firmware update (don't quote me on that).

Sienna might be able to chime in again on this... I suppose a single desktop with multiple output cards and a Pro version of NDI Connect might get you what you need. I think NDI Connect Pro supports up to 4 NDI connections, but I don't know the full limitations: https://www.newtek.com/connect/connect-pro/

I'm not sure where the idea of licensing costs for transmitting came from...
Zach Schuster
SuiteCG- Scorebug Controllers and StatCrew Data Translators for Broadcast CGs
www.suitecg.com
Offline

MambaFiber.com

  • Posts: 565
  • Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:26 pm
  • Location: SLC, UT

Re: Hardware NDI

PostThu Jun 14, 2018 11:33 pm

I'm with Phil. An "appliance" that has network in, and BNC/SDI outputs would be a great device to transition traditional setups into the NDI world. Until BM adds native NDI capability (i'm betting years if ever...) i think this would be a fabulous device to have.
Greg Bellotte - owner
MambaFiber.com
FaceBook.com/MambaFiber
Offline
User avatar

Peter Benson

  • Posts: 253
  • Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:12 pm
  • Location: Eastern Time Zone, USA

Re: Hardware NDI

PostFri Jun 15, 2018 4:16 am

]
Xtreemtec wrote:Well cheap and NDI doesn't go well together.. Newtek charges a [steep] amount of money for [their] NDI transmit licenses...

While the SDK is free.. The moment you want to distribute it you walk into a license thing that you need to pay for every used NDI setup.. ;)


Wow. I would advise that the above assertion be edited by its author so that people aren't confused into thinking that NDI (which is NewTek, Inc.'s open source A/V networking protocol) will cost them and that, dearly, as was erroneously implicated above.


Resolve Studio 14.3...014 | MiniMonitor | DTV Setup10.9.7 | "Windblows 8.1 x64 | ROG G751JL, 2.8GHz Intel i7HQ, 24GB DDR4, 1TB HD, 500GB EVO 850, 2GB GTX965M | Mackie MCU Pro | Softube Console 1 Mkii | Shuttle Pro 2
DTV 10.9.7 > Kingston SD5000T > MiniMonitor > Bravia | Samsung U28D590 | DRS 14.3.0.014 | Win8.1 x64 | ASUS G751JL, i7-4720HQ, 24GB | GTX965M | 1TB HDD, 500GB EVO 850 SSD | MCU Pro | Softube Console 1 Mkii | Shuttle Pro 2
Offline

Andrew Martin

  • Posts: 219
  • Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:25 pm

Re: Hardware NDI

PostSat Jun 16, 2018 6:32 pm

Looks like birddog recently posted on their social media and other Facebook streaming groups their product now outputs an NDI source as SDI HDMI making it a dual setup device adding to its ability to output NDI whilst capturing a SDI HDMI feed.
Offline

Kane Peterson

  • Posts: 61
  • Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:13 am

Re: Hardware NDI

PostSun Jun 17, 2018 1:45 pm

Lets clear up a few things.

NDI in software is free. Free to get access to, free to develop for, free to distribute in your own software. You do have to sign up to become a NDI developer, there is no cost.

NDI is not 'open source' (you can't have or modify the source code), but it is 'open' (it is available to anyone, even to competitors of NewTek).

I say 'in software', because that is what NDI was originally designed to be, a software based IP production format. Anything that is running on a computer with sufficient resources (Windows, Mac, Linux) can have NDI support added to it. This is different that pretty much every other IP production format that is designed to be implemented in hardware, having it run in software is *very* difficult.

NDI can be designed in hardware. That is what BirdDog and soon NewTek will have with the Connect Spark Pro product. Currently, these products are encoding. Both of these solutions are NDI in hardware.

BirdDog is working on decoding firmware, hopefully to be released soon (maybe in the next month?)

There is also a variant of NDI called, NDI|HX which is available in some products today like PTZ cameras and the current line of Spark products. These devices are encode only and the signal can be decoded on any NDI aware application.

Currently if you need to decode, there is NDI Connect and Connect Pro along with solutions from other companies, like Sienna's OSX based tools 'NDI Outlet', that allow you to take NDI and turn it back into SDI/HDMI using cards from companies like BlackMagic.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
Offline
User avatar

Xtreemtec

  • Posts: 2682
  • Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:48 am
  • Location: The Netherlands

Re: Hardware NDI

PostWed Jul 04, 2018 7:37 pm

Oke i retract my awnser!! Last year at IBC several camera manufactures have told me they have to charge extra costs due too the NDI license.

Maybe since then company policy changed. Could be?! But this is what was told me by 3 different companies that i spoke too at IBC..

So this is were my info was coming from.

But Kane can you explain then why if i have a Lumens or PTZ optics camera.. I have to go to the Newtek Website https://store.newtek.com/ndi-hx-upgrade-for-cameras.html and pay between 299 and 599 dollar for a NDI license ?? :roll: If NDI was free? Why do you need to charge money for a license then....

We all know that the Newtek NDI Ptz camera is a Lumens VC-A50PN. But due too the aditional license the Lumens get more expensive then your Newtek branded camera.
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, SONY FS7 4K, Ursa Broadcast 4K
Offline

GallerySienna

  • Posts: 54
  • Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:00 pm
  • Real Name: Mark Gilbert

Re: Hardware NDI

PostWed Jul 04, 2018 7:47 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:Oke i retract my awnser!! Last year at IBC several camera manufactures have told me they have to charge extra costs due too the NDI license.

Maybe since then company policy changed. Could be?! But this is what was told me by 3 different companies that i spoke too at IBC..

So this is were my info was coming from.

But Kane can you explain then why if i have a Lumens or PTZ optics camera.. I have to go to the Newtek Website https://store.newtek.com/ndi-hx-upgrade-for-cameras.html and pay between 299 and 599 dollar for a NDI license ?? :roll: If NDI was free? Why do you need to charge money for a license then....

We all know that the Newtek NDI Ptz camera is a Lumens VC-A50PN. But due too the aditional license the Lumens get more expensive then your Newtek branded camera.


As Kane Mentioned, the NDI (and NDI HX) Library on Mac, windows and linux is free. This is the gift that makes it all worthwhile.
NDI | HX firmware for cameras is not
Possibly NDI FPGA isn't and probably won't be when it becomes available to 3rd parties.

Implementing NDI HX into cameras (and into the HX receiver in NDI software) is potentially complex and expensive development. It seems reasonable that the camera vendors pay for this work and to get the added value that can differentiate their devices and add real added value for end users.

Ultimately, for the majority of NDI software out there - NDI is free. What's not to like ?
Offline

Kane Peterson

  • Posts: 61
  • Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:13 am

Re: Hardware NDI

PostMon Jul 09, 2018 1:40 am

In software, the NDI SDK is free. NDI in hardware, as mentioned, is more complex and current implementations are setup in a licensed model.

Of course anyone can charge what they like for a product that has NDI support, having NDI doesn't mean the the product has to be free or that adding NDI to an existing product has to be free. There is still development costs to adding support and that a company should have the ability to recuperate those costs.

Kane Peterson
NewTek

Return to Live Production

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests