What to get next for 700 euro?

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nedag.GER

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What to get next for 700 euro?

PostWed Jul 10, 2019 2:12 pm

What I already have: BMPCC 1st Gen, Cage without handle, samyang 12mm 2,0

What I wanna create:
Landscape videos on tripod. 30 minutes long videos.
Narrative Movies.
Recording Vehicles like trains(without other noises like humans and cars.) Here I prefer shoulder rigs because of the natural look. ;) Tripods and trains and planes etc. is sometimes boring. :D
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rick.lang

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What to get next for 700 euro?

PostWed Jul 10, 2019 5:04 pm

Something to think about but you might not want to do it at first glance: build a set of matched cine prime lenses which make everything so easy from an operator perspective as well as editing in post.

I’d recommend selling the Samyang 12mm lens and building a set of SLR Magic Microprime Cine lenses in mFT mount. These lenses will work well on the BMPCC4K if and when you replace the BMPCC.

You can now order their 12, 18, and 25mm lenses with more to come.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1454474-REG



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nedag.GER

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostWed Jul 10, 2019 8:10 pm

Sorry but that's too expensive per 1 lens. Later on sure.
I am not making a hollywood film. I wish though.
Why would I even go for SLR Magic over any other lens?
Making a photo lens into a cine lens is easy. You mean because the color stays the same if you use the same lens line?

I'd rather want a shoulder rig and good sound. I love the natural movement of a shoulder rig. :) I'm trying it with a tripod but it's very difficult.
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rick.lang

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What to get next for 700 euro?

PostWed Jul 10, 2019 9:17 pm

Then you’ll likely want to go with these two, based on your budget: Meike 16mm and 25mm Cine Primes for mFT:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1471071-REG

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1451856-REG


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nedag.GER

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostWed Jul 10, 2019 9:23 pm

Do you think a 12mm is enough for narrative shorts?
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rick.lang

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostWed Jul 10, 2019 10:26 pm

You can make a movie with a single prime lens. It’s been done, but may not suit every subject. If it’s only one lens, 12mm may be a difficult lens to use for everything on the BMPCC4K; for a short film less of an issue. Certainly easier if you had the 12, 16, 25mm in your toolbox. With the three lenses available, your most frequently used lens could be any one as the subject and your view will determine what’s best. My previous shoots on the BMPCC4K generally used the 25mm and everything felt ‘normal’ and comfortable. I used the Tokina 11-20mm in the narrative film shoot and felt best staying at 20mm, but can see that 16mm could be used; 11-12mm out of the question for that subject as the perspective would be a distraction to the generally intended mood of the film. Hope you understand what I mean.

When you stay close to our normal angle of view, the lens disappears and isn’t the story. When you shoot people with a very wide lens, the lens is part of the story, the distortion of perspective fits your purposes. Same with a film shot at 135mm on the BMPCC4K, the flattened perspective will keep your viewers at a distance from your subjects, physically and emotionally.

What I’ve said does vary though with the actual physical distance from the film plane of the key subjects. So my statements are assuming you generally want to have the subject close to the same physical size on the sensor. But if your subject was going to be the same actual distance from the camera and you used 12, 16, 25mm lenses, you’ll get a different feeling than if you physically moved the camera different distances from your subjects as you changed focal lengths.

It’s an art though, not a science; so you find the combination of focal length and subject distance that feels right. As an artist, you can paint with one brush if you have to, but chances are you will use a few different brushes in a painting. Having a set of three or four lenses is useful and desirable. You’ll appreciate having that.
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lee4ever

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 2:13 am

You now have BMPCC and also a 12mm lens from Samyang, that's good. As for lenses, it doesn't have to be expensive lenses and it doesn't need to be name CINE. Try vintage lenses, for example in combination with Canon FD adapter and Canon FD lenses and you will certainly be very satisfied with it.
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nedag.GER

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 8:54 am

lee4ever wrote:You now have BMPCC and also a 12mm lens from Samyang, that's good. As for lenses, it doesn't have to be expensive lenses and it doesn't need to be name CINE. Try vintage lenses, for example in combination with Canon FD adapter and Canon FD lenses and you will certainly be very satisfied with it.

Vintage = vignette *cough*
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 9:08 am

nedag.GER wrote:Vintage = vignette *cough*


That's odd, I have a number of 'vintage' lenses from Minolta, Nikon, Olympus film cameras and I don't have any vignetting issues when I've used them. In fact, some of these produce fantastic results. If I didn't prefer zoom lenses, as Australian conditions with dust etc aren't friendly to those that change lenses constantly, I'd be using these all the time.
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 9:33 am

I also use old Nikon AI glass and don't have vignetting on the Pocket 4K. The original pocket had an even smaller sensor so I don't see how you could get vignetting with vintage lenses. The older lenses were designed for a picture area of 36x24mm, if there was any vignetting visible at that size it is more than likely gone by the time you crop in to a smaller sensor.

One thing to think about though, with vintage glass, is that there weren't many lenses made in the extremely short focal lengths. Anything under 18 mm is hard to find and expensive. Again this has to do with the bigger sensor/film size: a 20 mm lens is very wide on full frame (135) camera, but becomes a longish normal lens on the 1st gen. pocket. So you might need a focal reducer (Viltrox, Metabones, etc.)
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 9:39 am

ttakala wrote:One thing to think about though, with vintage glass, is that there weren't many lenses made in the extremely short focal lengths.


That was the single reason why I seriously considered getting a used BMPCC, so that I could use it with my tele lenses/zooms for wildlife, as that would give me an effective FF angle of view of around 800mm with my Nikon 300mm f4.
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Brad Hurley

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 11:22 am

For vintage lenses you could also consider the cheap and widely available Helios 44-2 58mm lens, a Zeiss knockoff from Russia that varies widely in quality but always has a lot of "character." See for example this footage (which was taken by a filmmaker on an Ursa Mini 4.6K, but you can do a Google search and find examples taken with this lens on the original BMPCC too):


Prices are typically $40 to $175 USD and it was produced in very large numbers so it's easy to find on eBay, Etsy, etc. You will need an adapter for MFT but those are easy to get as well.
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Valery Axenov

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 1:34 pm

Definitely you will need sound. Ext mic or better recorder (I use Tascam DR40 for clean 24bitWAV and synchro-sound directly to camera (there are also more compact recorders)).

Variable ND filter(s) - Fader.

Refer to line of fixed lenses 10, 15, 25, 50 (or 12, 20, 35-50) 85, 135
and one zoom 10-100 (12-120)

For short end may be used not expensive and compact(!) S16 lenses from 16mm cameras.
Great line with vintage look Meopta 1,8/12.5mm Largor, 1,8/20mm Openar, 50mm

I personally use pro cine line of Russian production (wide S16mm end - not expensive) (all system adapted to Canon FD mount) OKS-1-10-1(only 2.35 lens (Arri Schneider Cinegon 1.8/10mm - S16)) OKS-2-15-1(S16 lens (3-15-1 not)) , OKS-1-25-1, compact 35mm rangefinder lenses Jupiter 50/1.5(Sonnar), Jupiter 85/2(Sonnar), (Jupiter 135/4(Sonnar)). All lenses with great cinematic look. (Russian rangefinder lenses 39mm thread Zeiss copy much better in average than Zenit 42mm thread).

Wide end - Angenieux R7 5.9/1.8 great lens (24mm in 35mm standard). Sharp from 2.8, wider gives vintage soft look. Covers BMPCC sensor with appr. to 103-4% shift in post production.

From 2.8/20mm you may use 35mm Canon FD line (4/17mm a bit dark for cine use at my opinion).

One of the main advantages of 16mm cine and rangefinder lenses excluding quality is weight(!). I have pro line of Canon FD 24/1,4L, concave rare earth 35/2, 50/1,2L, 85/1.2L but only onсe I used this line in field. Real bricks in your bag compare to 16mm cine.

If you think about P4K go to 35mm Canon FD as not expensive option.

pic.1 OKS-2-15-1, Jupiter 50/1.5 OKS-1-25-1, Angenieux 5.9/1.8
pic.2,3 OKS-1-25-1, Angenieux 5.9/1.8 cine mount adaptation (do not buy Fotga 4/3)
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nedag.GER

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 8:49 pm

Valery Axenov Are those lenses good for a arri look? I don't want a vintage look. It should look clear and modern.

Synchro-sound directly into cam sounds good. What would the cheapest option look like? It should be usable for everything. Not just what I wrote in my 1st post, like landscape, trains and narratives.

Brad Hurley Your lens image looks very vintage. No-go. :D
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lee4ever

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 9:07 pm

BMPCC is the small arri alexa (is also used more often beside arri as b-cam), also with cheap lenses. And Vintage Lens on BMPCC doesn't mean no modern or clear look (whoever told you that, THAT's not true. It depends on the lens). Otherwise, take a closer look at SIGMA 18-35mm F1.8.



Brad Hurley Your lens image looks very vintage. No-go.


The look in his video has something to do with his colorgrading. In any case, Helios lenses are very good, they have something of their own, like beautiful bokeh.

I would say, get to know your bmpcc better first (lens doesn't matter), because the bmpcc has professional (prores)10bit and (cdng/raw)12bit. So you have professional possibilities in davinci resolve. It is the other part of the camera. The two belong together. The one without the other does not work.
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nedag.GER

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 10:00 pm

SO how does it depend on the lens?
What do I have to invest in to make money with my bmpcc?
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Valery Axenov

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 10:51 pm

nedag.GER wrote:Valery Axenov Are those lenses good for a arri look? I don't want a vintage look. It should look clear and modern.

Synchro-sound directly into cam sounds good. What would the cheapest option look like? It should be usable for everything. Not just what I wrote in my 1st post, like landscape, trains and narratives.

Brad Hurley Your lens image looks very vintage. No-go. :D


If you have no experience in photography it is hard to explain in couple of words what I mean as bad (not interesting image, clinical, no air inside of the frame, video impression) and good (for me) cinematic look image. How lens work with light inside of the frame. What mood you get of the lens. I do not recommend to follow my way. I have decades of experience in documentary and art photography. I use lenses from 1900th - 30th, single coated 50-60th to first pro ground glass aspherics and fluorit lenses of 70-80th. Take any available lens and start to shoot footage. Than you may understand what you really need to have. Vintage do not mean not sharp lens. It's an old discussion about "sharp" Zeiss vs "soft" Cooke cine lenses only.) I prefer old Cook type of image. The early Russian cine OKS more close to Cooke mood.

ps. around 500 USD for new lens it is not expensive. Check the price list for old Cooke Kinetal S16 not perfect used conditions in the same type of body from 70th or better Speed Panchro and feel the difference. All pro cine lenses for 16mm standard as well are of a very high quality. 2-4K for film photography it's a low resolution.

Here couple of export frames from my documentary.

pic.1 OKS 2-15-1 f5.6
pic.2,3 Angenieux 5,9 f2.8 (wide open) low light
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Valery Axenov

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostThu Jul 11, 2019 10:54 pm

pic.4 Angenieux 12-120 f8 NDfader
pic.5 Zeiss VarioSonnar 10-100 f4
pic.6 OKS 1-25- f5.6 NDfader
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 12:05 am

nedag.GER wrote:SO how does it depend on the lens?


Not all vintage lenses are fuzzy or something like not modern. vintage lenses have special colors that have a different look, or like helios, beautiful bokeh. Is different, there are countless vintage lenses. So the choice is very big.

What do I have to invest in to make money with my bmpcc?


Invest in your time to learn. :) Go outside, record everything possible, watch some other video, try to create the same, learn to work with davinci resolve. Make some good videos that will serve you as advertising. Upload your best videos to Facebook and other communication platforms.

I'm sure you'll find people watching your video and if you're good then maybe someone will come and ask you "I want to make music clip, can you make my video for $250?" 8-) Just try it out. With time, you'll know what tools you need. For example, light, lenses, gimbal is useful, external screen, good microphone etc.





That at Netflix, was also filmed with BMPCC (not with BMPCC4K)


Well, yeah, of course you can make money with it. 8-)
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 10:07 am

lee4ever wrote:
Brad Hurley Your lens image looks very vintage. No-go.


The look in his video has something to do with his colorgrading. In any case, Helios lenses are very good, they have something of their own, like beautiful bokeh.


Just to be clear, that wasn't my video, I just linked to it as an example. It was taken by a professional cinematographer and filmmaker; he used Filmconvert to grade it. I don't even own a Helios lens.
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nedag.GER

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 11:06 am

I'd love if someone could make a list with the things I should buy.
So that I only have to click on "buy". I don't wanna search myself the cheapest version of item x and waste money because I didn't know there is a cheaper version with good quality.
I even find smallrig stuff too expensive.

100 Euro for a god damn simple PLASTIC base plate..... what the ****?! I could even 3d print this for the same money.
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Brad Hurley

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 11:26 am

nedag.GER wrote:I'd love if someone could make a list with the things I should buy.


We're not going to do your research for you. :D

But as a general guide, this is a good start:

http://data.pleintekst.nl//Blackmagic_P ... Guide.html
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 1:49 pm

The $700 AMD Radeon VII is no longer in production.

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-radeon-vii-reaches-end-of-life
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 1:53 pm

MishaEngel wrote:The $700 AMD Radeon VII is no longer in production.

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-radeon-vii-reaches-end-of-life


Yes, I should have mentioned that there are several things out of date with the "survival guide" I linked to, and also questionable advice on how to approach grading log footage. But there's some good general information too.
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 2:27 pm

Is there any way how to film with only a viewfinder?
Filming with VF and walking only for 1 step is no problem. That can be a smooth shot. But what when I wanna move the camera?
Filming with viewfinder and walking will lead to up and down etc. movement. What if I wanna use a steadycam? What if I wanna move with camera lower than head level?

I am worried about using a external screen. :/
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 3:07 pm

nedag.GER wrote:Is there any way how to film with only a viewfinder?
Filming with VF and walking only for 1 step is no problem. That can be a smooth shot. But what when I wanna move the camera?
Filming with viewfinder and walking will lead to up and down etc. movement. What if I wanna use a steadycam? What if I wanna move with camera lower than head level?

I am worried about using a external screen. :/


You are worried about using an external screen? Why?
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 3:11 pm

HDMI PORT :(
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 4:01 pm

nedag.GER wrote:HDMI PORT :(


What about it?
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 4:10 pm

youlikeny wrote:
nedag.GER wrote:HDMI PORT :(


What about it?


The HDMI port on the BMPCC is weak and prone to breaking (which destroys the whole camera and is not repairable), but if you use a cable clamp like the one available from SmallRig or (harder to find) the one that used to be made by Wooden Camera you shouldn't have any problems. I've been using my original Pocket with an external monitor for a year and a half with no mishaps, and plenty of people have been using it with monitors since the camera was released in 2013; I use the SmallRig cage with cable clamp screws.

If you don't want to buy a steadicam or gimbal, a good cheap solution is a monopod; if you hold it out in front of you while walking you can get a pretty stable image. If your lens has stabilization, it's even more convincing.
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 4:13 pm

I have gini cage. No idea if that clamp fits there.
I don't use lenses with stabilization.
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 4:16 pm

nedag.GER wrote:I have gini cage. No idea if that clamp fits there.
I don't use lenses with stabilization.


See, that's why I said we can't do your research for you. Only you know what you have, what you want to shoot, and what you want to spend.
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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostFri Jul 12, 2019 4:46 pm

Wait a second. Now you know it?
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Valery Axenov

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostSat Jul 13, 2019 11:08 am

Try to understand your style of shooting, mobility of your system.
Look how complete system look like from other users.
Go to AliExpess and build your own.

Main thing you should know about full line of fixed lenses (What Rick offers you etc) is that one line of pro cine lenses are balanced (inside of the line) to resolution/contrast data, color/coating, smooth same type of front/back out focus details, etc. Year of production does not matter. That you will be able to use your footage from different lenses in post production, color grading etc. with the same pic. mood, same color balance, close front and back out of focus.
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rick.lang

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostSat Jul 13, 2019 1:44 pm

Thank you, Valery. I understand a set of three or four SLR Magic Cine Microprimes exceeds the 700€ criteria, but my approach would be to assemble the set over time, beginning with two lenses this year and add one or two next year. It took me time to put the APO PL set together because SLR Magic released them over time, but that also suited my budget limitations and I never really suffered; it gave me time to know each lens well. I would follow the same approach assembling a set for the BMPCC4K.

I did break the APO set to add the Tokina Cinema ATX 11-20mm PL, but that lens is also designed to work well with the image character of the APO primes. It’s a pleasure to use operationally on a set where one works in relatively close quarters. Ideal on the BMPCC4K as the go to choice for interiors and the APO for exterior shots as I’ve done on my narrative film project.

The lenses I have are not the perfect solution for all requirements, but they are a family that suits a certain world view that is my only interest in recording. I’m not worried about recording reality, I’ve no intention of recording reality. If one wants to do that, another lens family would be needed. These are personal choices you make as a cinematographer. There’s no right or wrong lens or world view. There’s only what is right for you.

With all these focal lengths, one may also have the option to shoot either 4K/UHD or 2K/HD depending upon the camera and what works for the shot. You just need lenses that will perform well in 4K resolutions or better.

On my limited budget, I’m pleased that I can use the same lenses on two cameras with two standard resolutions (and can throw in the anamorphic widescreen treatment with the APO primes). ProRes helps the images from the two cameras blend seamlessly for the narrative film where a consistent look is very important and I’m going to test how CinemaDNG and BRAW will work together shortly (of course if BMD could add BRAW to the URSA Mini 4.6K soon, I’d just use BRAW where both cameras are used in a given project.

What I’m trying to say is that economy isn’t just keeping costs today within a tight budget, but that ensuring your choices today will still be useful tomorrow so you have room tomorrow to add other things knowing you’re good with your lenses... or room to add lenses that bring new features. Selecting all manual lenses also aids in their flexibility at the cost of less convenience; the OP understands that already.




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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostSat Jul 13, 2019 6:53 pm

How does a video look without using same lens line? Any examples on yt to watch?
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Valery Axenov

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostSun Jul 14, 2019 9:54 am

I'm not sure that it's possible to find any reasonable serious test in yt. But it's a basic principals of good pro cine prime lenses approach of calculation and production. If you have let say 5sec of footage with one lens and next 5sec of footage should be with an other, so you need to have within one lenses line center/corner resolutions to be the same, same coating, same contrast, same treatment of light, same or close optical scheme.

For my approach in photography and cinema I'm looking as well for lenses with a unique character and mood. I think it's not possible to shoot something like this with any modern lens. So I need to use vintage from 60th. I want to have this mood in my next narrative film.
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rick.lang

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What to get next for 700 euro?

PostSun Jul 14, 2019 12:29 pm

After decades of trying to perfect the performances of modern lenses with regard to control of flare, aberration, and contrast using high technology coatings and special glass, some major manufacturers will offer those lenses without any coatings. That can certainly help get to that moody look while minimizing other flaws. Still the real thing (vintage lenses) might be the best choice for Valery.


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Valery Axenov

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostSun Jul 14, 2019 1:53 pm

For sure. Old single coating b/w cine lens, close to wide open (block light with NDfader). May be additional square glass clean filter with thin layer of grease on the left.)
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Cooper

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostSun Jul 14, 2019 2:25 pm

HDD storage for the videos, "external" backup storage and perhaps some bluray burner that supports 4 layer writing + 100GB/50GB (100GB discs seem to be somewhat hard to find) for third back up in different form. +online backup might be an option if you have super fast upload.
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nedag.GER

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostSun Jul 14, 2019 4:22 pm

Cooper wrote:HDD storage for the videos, "external" backup storage and perhaps some bluray burner that supports 4 layer writing + 100GB/50GB (100GB discs seem to be somewhat hard to find) for third back up in different form. +online backup might be an option if you have super fast upload.

hdd storage? isn't that too slow for resolve?
or you mean, store files on hdd. and when working in resolve, it will use ram and not the hdd?
but why then is working with resolve 10 times faster since I installed a ssd?
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Cooper

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Re: What to get next for 700 euro?

PostSun Jul 14, 2019 6:45 pm

Depends on your current Editing setup. Massive sata SSD or NVME drives are non existing/super expensive. With enough pcie express slots/channels available only option is to get decent 8x LSI raid card but that alone will cost a bit. Then 0 raiding decent spinning disk for size/SSD for better access times. For now I have 4 HDD 14TB ~800MB/s 0 raid+1TB m.2 nvme raid +500GB intel PCIe nvme +2TB sata SSD +TBs of normal storage. Raid 0 = back up really really needed so got 14TB as network backup on other computer... need to expand someday. Not that familiar how davinci file caching/working folders work with speed/access times.

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