Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

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timbutt2

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Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostSun Oct 30, 2016 4:57 pm

UPDATE 12/21/16: http://www.thehurlblog.com/blackmagic-u ... skin-tone/ - That's the link to the first part of Shane Hurlbut's tests.

Yesterday was pretty amazing when it came to a surprise Facebook Live Stream from Shane Hurlbut, ASC. He did a few different Live Streams through the day as Facebook only allows for 4-hours per Live Stream. Throughout the day he tested the URSA Mini 4.6K PL running Firmware 4.0 and using Rokinon XEENs.

The most fascinating thing is the later Live Streams were multi-camera video streams where they used the Blackmagic ATEM to switch between the multiple RED BTS cameras they had rolling, the URSA Mini 4.6K, and more. It was pretty impressive. I didn't know it was possible for Facebook Live to take a multi-camera live video feed like that. They used Open Broadcast Software in order to send the signal from the ATEM to the web. You can download it and get more info here: https://obsproject.com

So I'm going to start by sharing the embeds of the Facebook Live Videos here to start. That is if I can embed those videos. Haven't tried embedding a Facebook video on these forums before. Then later when Shane starts sharing the videos of his tests I'll post them in the comments below. I'm pretty excited to see what his results are after watching him conduct his tests.

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fshanehurlbutasc%2Fvideos%2F10154312326337928%2F&show_text=0&width=560" width="560" height="315" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fshanehurlbutasc%2Fvideos%2F10154312402822928%2F&show_text=0&width=400" width="400" height="400" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fshanehurlbutasc%2Fvideos%2F10154312962862928%2F&show_text=0&width=560" width="560" height="315" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>

I'm sorry to say that the embed doesn't work on the forum. That's kind of something I expected. Facebook is likely the problem. So I'm going to share a link to Shane Hurlbut's Facebook page and hope you can check out the videos on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/shanehurlbutasc/
Last edited by timbutt2 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Movies are not watched. They are an encounter with a life's experience not your own." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostSun Oct 30, 2016 7:03 pm

I'm excited to see his thoughts and results.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostWed Dec 21, 2016 10:03 pm

Okay, the first test was released today! This is the overexposure test.

http://www.thehurlblog.com/blackmagic-u ... skin-tone/

Tomorrow the next test, which is underexposure. He outlines in the article what each test will entail.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostWed Dec 21, 2016 10:50 pm

Those poor models. That left right, next, left right, next... would drive me nuts.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostWed Dec 21, 2016 11:34 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Those poor models. That left right, next, left right, next... would drive me nuts.

Hahahahaha! Those poor models. More so those poor models being hit on by every grip that was on the set.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 22, 2016 12:21 am

Really appreciated seeing the colour matched clips with the different lighting strength showing the tendency to yellow on skin at very high overexposure. But it looks like two or three stops over is very safe to bring back down and keep colours looking very good.


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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 22, 2016 5:09 pm

Thanks for posting this Tim! I watched Shane's whole video analysis and the short takeaway is that exposing about 1.5 stops over from your measured key light was about optimum to achieve great skin tones and low noise.
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Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 22, 2016 5:34 pm

Just for my edification, what exactly are the steps Shane is doing when he exposes for his key light? Is he pointing an incident light meter at the key light from the position of the model? So if the meter then reads T2 for example, his base exposure is T2? If that's what he's doing, much of his frame would be underexposed. Or is he exposing until he reaches a certain IRE value for his light-skinned model?

Would have been helpful to see the false colour values on all his exposures and then I'd know exactly what was being done.


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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 22, 2016 6:21 pm

rick.lang wrote:Just for my edification, what exactly are the steps Shane is doing when he exposes for his key light? Is he pointing an incident light meter at the key light from the position of the model? So if the meter then reads T2 for example, his base exposure is T2? If that's what he's doing, much of his frame would be underexposed. Or is he exposing until he reaches a certain IRE value for his light-skinned model?

Would have been helpful to see the false colour values on all his exposures and then I'd know exactly what was being done.


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If you look at the Facebook Live Video you'll actually see how he exposes his key light. I'll check and see if I can find that link.

https://www.facebook.com/shanehurlbutas ... 962862928/

That should be the correct one. You may have to sign up for Shane's Inner Circle for his full videos that show every single step since he clearly recorded it all to put together a SIC video.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 22, 2016 6:39 pm

Thanks, Tim. It was as I suggested, pointing an incident light meter at the key light from the position of the model. I don't expose that way. I want the light reflected from the model's face hitting the camera. He's very precise and technical. "Call Me Irresponsible, But It's Undeniable" I'm practical and speedy.


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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 22, 2016 7:25 pm

No problem, Rick.

And, Part 2 is up on his blog: http://www.thehurlblog.com/blackmagic-u ... skin-tone/


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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 22, 2016 9:34 pm

You can see why I actually don't like his exposure methodology watching the tests. The base T2 test is really too dark on most of the frame and especially the dark-skinned woman. Sure the side of Monette's face lit by the key is okay, but to me the rest is too dark. So when he says that the sweet spot maybe is 1 ½ stops over, I'm thinking that's actually where he should be exposing her as the 'base' give or take a half stop. Oh well, I'm no ASC DOP.


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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 22, 2016 9:49 pm

rick.lang wrote:You can see why I actually don't like his exposure methodology watching the tests. The base T2 test is really too dark on most of the frame and especially the dark-skinned woman. Sure the side of Monette's face lit by the key is okay, but to me the rest is too dark. So when he says that the sweet spot maybe is 1 ½ stops over, I'm thinking that's actually where he should be exposing her as the 'base' give or take a half stop. Oh well, I'm no ASC DOP.


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Got to be honest, I was wondering about this too. I assume that he' referring to a standard or typical exposure on caucasian skin, but wouldn't each camera handle that differently? Why not find the camera's sweet spot, use that as a base, and go up or down from there?
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 22, 2016 10:02 pm

Jonesy, that would have made more sense to me. And then he does extensive tests to come to the conclusion that the camera's native ISO is 800 and that provides the greater dynamic range overall. He could have just asked anyone here. But he has his method in his madness and to his credit he wants to be sure. And in the process, he's assured us what we know is correct.


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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostFri Dec 23, 2016 12:43 am

rick.lang wrote:Jonesy, that would have made more sense to me. And then he does extensive tests to come to the conclusion that the camera's native ISO is 800 and that provides the greater dynamic range overall. He could have just asked anyone here. But he has his method in his madness and to his credit he wants to be sure. And in the process, he's assured us what we know is correct.


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Yah, I've met Shane before during one of his workshops and there's no doubt in my mind he knows what he's doing. It's just confusing to me the way he poses it... 1.5 stops over... over what? What's also funny is that at his workshop he said he doesn't use light meters any longer and exposes with false color. Wouldn't that have landed him right in the sweet spot with none of the over/under talk?
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostFri Dec 23, 2016 2:54 am

I think so. I believe looking at that image it would have been in the pink.


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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostFri Dec 23, 2016 3:44 am

Jonesy Jones wrote:Yah, I've met Shane before during one of his workshops and there's no doubt in my mind he knows what he's doing. It's just confusing to me the way he poses it... 1.5 stops over... over what? What's also funny is that at his workshop he said he doesn't use light meters any longer and exposes with false color. Wouldn't that have landed him right in the sweet spot with none of the over/under talk?


Shane used an incident meter that gives a readout based on 18% gray, this gives a fixed repeatable target using a standard method of determining exposure for the set ISO entered on the meter. He set his aperture at a T2 based on that readout for a "normal" 18% gray exposure alone, NOT to what looked best. As he increased his key light by 1/2 stop increments, he made a judgment call that +1.5 over that "normal" base measurement gave the most pleasing color to his eye. If he had used false color, the lights and or aperture would have to be adjusted until the proper false color was shown and this would have resulted in a good exposure, but it wouldn't have provided as precise of a technically measured exposure base to show how the sensor responds to over and under from that base measurement. This test was all about showing what the range of the sensor is and how it can be pulled back from over or under exposure, not just showing how to arrive at a great exposure. Which I presume he would still prefer false color for that.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostFri Dec 23, 2016 12:54 pm

What I feel many people do not understand is that there is a fixed value in footcandles for a "proper" exposure at a given ISO and stop. Discussing stops over or under is not arbitrary. While this may not provide best results using every camera it provides a common language. A stop over is always going to mean the same thing no matter what camera I'm using. Interesting that he rates the sensor at about ISO 280. Given how well the camera handles overexposure vs. underexposure I'd say he's probably pretty close.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostFri Dec 23, 2016 1:36 pm

That's pretty much what I assumed and said in my first post. I think the disconnect for me is that Shane was approaching the test in terms of qualifying the camera/sensor. I was thinking in terms of exposing for that scene. Different agendas, but had the goal been to record that scene, we'd of probably ended up in the same place.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostFri Dec 23, 2016 6:19 pm

"Movies are not watched. They are an encounter with a life's experience not your own." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostFri Dec 23, 2016 7:03 pm

rick.lang wrote:Jonesy, that would have made more sense to me. And then he does extensive tests to come to the conclusion that the camera's native ISO is 800 and that provides the greater dynamic range overall. He could have just asked anyone here. But he has his method in his madness and to his credit he wants to be sure. And in the process, he's assured us what we know is correct.



It's more than that. Using a skin tone measurement isn't based on what looks right, it's based on middle grey; the idea is to find out what camera will give you in each stop as you move away from middle grey. There's a always some variation both in how the sensor responds to light and in how the camera's image processing translates that response into a raw image. There's also variation in color, since the color filter array varies by sensor as well, and in this case is most likely proprietary.

This is basically profiling the sensor; you look for both its latitude and its strengths and weaknesses, but you can also measure what happens when things go wonky. One cinematographer I know uses an odd highlight clipping artifact on his Mysterium-X sensor camera as an in-camera special effect on occasion, something he wouldn't have discovered that he could do if he hadn't profile the sensor like Shane is doing.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostFri Dec 23, 2016 9:03 pm

Thanks for the details Benton, Howard, and Rakesh.


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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostSat Dec 24, 2016 6:41 am

I would take Mr. Hurlbut's opinions with a grain of salt, and gather additional data before making important decisions.

His review of the BMDCC concluded that it was unuseable for cinema unless you put a Letus 35mm ground glass lens adapter on it. That's just plain wrong.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostSat Dec 24, 2016 7:23 am

Lee Gauthier wrote:His review of the BMDCC concluded that it was unuseable for cinema unless you put a Letus 35mm ground glass lens adapter on it. That's just plain wrong.


Where did you see that? I've never seen him say that about the BMCC.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostSat Dec 24, 2016 5:47 pm

PaulDelVecchio wrote:
Lee Gauthier wrote:His review of the BMDCC concluded that it was unuseable for cinema unless you put a Letus 35mm ground glass lens adapter on it. That's just plain wrong.


Where did you see that? I've never seen him say that about the BMCC.


He's said it in a couple of places, but here's where he recommended the Letus 35mm adapter specifically.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostSat Dec 24, 2016 5:58 pm

Lee Gauthier wrote:
PaulDelVecchio wrote:
Lee Gauthier wrote:His review of the BMDCC concluded that it was unuseable for cinema unless you put a Letus 35mm ground glass lens adapter on it. That's just plain wrong.


Where did you see that? I've never seen him say that about the BMCC.


He's said it in a couple of places, but here's where he recommended the Letus 35mm adapter specifically.


He doesn't say that it was "unuseable for proper cinema work" - that was a suggestion that can go with the shoulder mount. In one article, he even said it's the best camera for learning DPs because of the sensor size and dynamic range.

Either way though, I don't think he has unfairly reviewed the 4.6k in any way. He said it's got about 5-5.5 stops in the overexposure. That either puts it in the Dragon territory or it beats it depending on what article you read. In his Dragon tests, he's mentioned that it's about 4.5-5 stops in the over but then I've also heard him say (can't remember if it's on his podcasts or in the On Set With Shane series for Into The Badlands, but he mentions the Dragon has 5-5.5 stops over.

Either way, the mini 4.6k at 5 1/3 stops over before it clips... that's crazy good for this camera. He's a Red Dragon guy for sure, but I don't think he's making any major false claims about the 4.6k. What he's seeing is basically what I'm seeing (before the Black Shading update).

So yeah... this camera is amazing.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostSat Dec 24, 2016 8:31 pm

I'm getting exactly the same results as he in the over exposure but I have been able to still find detail in the -7 range. It's not anything that you could return to a proper exposure but it sees it. Especially since the new calibration rids it of the blue lifting. So that puts the camera at about 13.5 stops maybe even 14 if your in raw. But as far as returning an under exposure to something that is more of a proper exposure I think he was spot on as well with the -3.5.

Paul are you seeing about 13.5 stops in dr and about 9 in latitude?
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostSun Dec 25, 2016 10:49 pm

Ryan Hamblin wrote:I'm getting exactly the same results as he in the over exposure but I have been able to still find detail in the -7 range. It's not anything that you could return to a proper exposure but it sees it. Especially since the new calibration rids it of the blue lifting. So that puts the camera at about 13.5 stops maybe even 14 if your in raw. But as far as returning an under exposure to something that is more of a proper exposure I think he was spot on as well with the -3.5.

Paul are you seeing about 13.5 stops in dr and about 9 in latitude?


I never tested the under to the point of what I could see... I just tested it to where I could "bring it back" in post and I found that (for me) that was -2 the absolute most. Anything more for my taste is too noisy and blue. I'm sure the new black shading might change that a little.

The overexposure is pretty much spot on although I didn't have the resources to do it at a continuos f-stop like Shane did. I actually sometimes expose at green in the false color scale. At pink, I find that's about 1/2 a stop over what my light meter tells me at 800 ASA. So yeah, I'm finding it approximately correct. I don't expose at 1.5 stops over (where Shane likes it) because thats too hot for me for drama) but for beauty or high key stuff I would.

I never shoot to "bring it back up" in post. Def not with BMD cameras or Canon cameras. If anything, those "dark alley" shots Shane talks about... I expose them a little higher then bring that down in post. That's just my preference to avoid noise.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostSun Dec 25, 2016 11:26 pm

Paul that's just about my same methodology as well. Fashion I'm about a stop over for skin drama etc.. 1/2 or spit on and push mid tones up a hair in post. I'm not a fan of pushing... I never was with film either. I did go back and look at my over under test though and I had misspoke earlier it was 6 stops over and 7 under so right around that 14 drop mark of dynamic range but only about 7 or 8 of latitude. It's for sure in the Alexa territory.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostSun Dec 25, 2016 11:33 pm

Ryan Hamblin wrote:Paul that's just about my same methodology as well. Fashion I'm about a stop over for skin drama etc.. 1/2 or spit on and push mid tones up a hair in post. I'm not a fan of pushing... I never was with film either. I did go back and look at my over under test though and I had misspoke earlier it was 6 stops over and 7 under so right around that 14 drop mark of dynamic range but only about 7 or 8 of latitude. It's for sure in the Alexa territory.


What have you seen for the Alexa? What about Dragon? To be honest, I haven't spent a lot of time with Dragon footage, but I've heard Shane say Dragon is 5-5.5 stops over but then in the in depth test on the Inner Circle, he says 4 2/3 over. So that makes the UM4.6k better in the over...

I graded a few Helium projects (mostly run and gun music videos and I really didnt like it. It was too punchy and it clips quickly it seem as you reach 90+ IRE. Wasnt really a fan. I hear Dragon is better as of right now because theyre still working on Helium color science but overall, the BM4.6k footage to me looked smoother and more film-like.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostSun Dec 25, 2016 11:58 pm

Dont get me wrong the Alexa is still king in some aspects but the ursa mini really hits the sweet spot of image quality and resolution.

But the the question at hand I was seeing about 7 over 7 under with about 10 stops latitude. You can shift the shadows a bit more on the camera. I have not tested since the new black shade firmware and am excited to do so. This camera has such a filmic look. It's great!

I have not had a chance to do a side by side with helium but the files I have played with really didn't feel very solid. The blacks and highlight both seemed to clip harshly
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostMon Dec 26, 2016 5:46 am

PaulDelVecchio wrote:I graded a few Helium projects (mostly run and gun music videos and I really didnt like it. It was too punchy and it clips quickly it seem as you reach 90+ IRE. Wasnt really a fan. I hear Dragon is better as of right now because theyre still working on Helium color science but overall, the BM4.6k footage to me looked smoother and more film-like.


To avoid the wonky DragonColor applied to Helium, you have to start using the RedWideGamutRGB + RedLog3G10 + an appropriate display LUT. You can select those in RedCine (and I think also in Resolve), but to set them in camera you need the latest firmware that includes the image processing pipeline preview.

Use RWG + Log3G10 and the unpleasant clipping disappears. Then Helium really shines.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostTue Dec 27, 2016 7:42 am

PaulDelVecchio wrote:He doesn't say that it was "unuseable for proper cinema work"


He's said it in a couple of places, including in interviews. That was the article I could find on a moments notice, and he says that MFT have endless DOF, so you need to use a Letus 35mm adapter. (Which IMHO is dead wrong.)

Also, he holds himself out as an A-list DP, and sells his courses based on this. Since he made Christian Bale go ballistic on Terminator, he's not getting hired on big movies. He's mostly doing low-budget cable shows, BTS and shorts.

So I approach his opinions with healthy skepticism. You're entitled to love the guy, and take everything he says as gospel if you like. I've found him to be less than impartial and scientific with his evaluations.

By contrast, I find Brawley's opinions to be accurate, unbiased, scientific and unpretentious. Even when he says things I wish weren't true.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostTue Dec 27, 2016 7:48 am

That's a terrible reason to claim that the BMCC isn't suitable for cinematography, since it's dead wrong.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostTue Dec 27, 2016 11:02 am

Lee Gauthier wrote:
PaulDelVecchio wrote:He doesn't say that it was "unuseable for proper cinema work"


He's said it in a couple of places, including in interviews. That was the article I could find on a moments notice, and he says that MFT have endless DOF, so you need to use a Letus 35mm adapter. (Which IMHO is dead wrong.)

Also, he holds himself out as an A-list DP, and sells his courses based on this. Since he made Christian Bale go ballistic on Terminator, he's not getting hired on big movies. He's mostly doing low-budget cable shows, BTS and shorts.

So I approach his opinions with healthy skepticism. You're entitled to love the guy, and take everything he says as gospel if you like. I've found him to be less than impartial and scientific with his evaluations.

By contrast, I find Brawley's opinions to be accurate, unbiased, scientific and unpretentious. Even when he says things I wish weren't true.


I think this outlines a basic problem with camera/tech "personalities". People tend to chose sides and then it's no longer objective. Can I approve of a Shane's methodology without worshipping at his temple? Can I appreciate a Philip Bloom review without being a woman beater, is it possible to learn from a JB post without being a BM fanboy? Can I appreciate what Red is doing without drinking the Kool Aid?

Maybe it's time we all grew up a little.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostTue Dec 27, 2016 5:17 pm

Nicely put, Howard.


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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostTue Dec 27, 2016 5:38 pm

Howard Roll wrote:I think this outlines a basic problem with camera/tech "personalities".


It's an issue with most personalities, to be honest.

People tend to chose sides and then it's no longer objective. Can I approve of a Shane's methodology without worshipping at his temple?


So long as I'm convinced that he's competent, yes. I don't have to share someone's opinion in order to respect that person's opinion, but I do have to be convinced about their integrity. Otherwise, their opinion doesn't mean anything whether I agree with or not.

More people should adopt that attitude; it would eliminate a lot of flame wars and get politicians a lot fewer votes.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostTue Dec 27, 2016 5:41 pm

I think this outlines a basic problem with camera/tech "personalities".


As you might have guessed, I'm not a big fan of reviews by "personalities." I think Hurlbut and Bloom are among the worst offenders because they have a strong particular bias towards their own shooting habits. I'd much rather see a broader point of view that sticks to the facts.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostTue Dec 27, 2016 6:24 pm

Key word here, fellas, is "opinion" and both Hurlbut and Bloom repeatedly say their reviews are their opinions and should not be used alone when making your own investment decisions. This is how THEY do it. If I did reviews I'd use my own opinion, too.

It's up to we consumers to ingest as much information as possible, then visit a reputable camera shoppe, or rent it, and hold the thing in your hands and use it and, using others opinions (like the veteran ones of Hurlbut and Bloom and Brawley and the newsshooter guys or whomever) as background, make your own INFORMED DECISION and go from there. Dismissing their opinions outright because their blogs are more famous than yours, or whatever reason, is stupid.

I might not agree with Hurlbut on some things (I was on Christian Bale's side, for example) I largely respect his opinion and, even though there's a billion ways to make a movie, he's made lots and they mostly look really nice. Bloom's video works looks fine or he wouldnt be hired by CNN and BBC regularly.

Take every review with a grain of salt...including your own. Until you hold the camera in your hands and use it you're not going to know. Until then, understand these guys offering their opinions? A few years ago I would'a killed to talk shop with a guy like Hurlbut. Now, I can just look at his Facebook page. This self-entitled crap needs to stop.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostWed Dec 28, 2016 10:23 pm

Lee Gauthier wrote:You're entitled to love the guy, and take everything he says as gospel if you like. I've found him to be less than impartial and scientific with his evaluations.


I never said I take everything he says as gospel. If you read my post, you can clearly see that I don't agree with his 1.5 stops over, as that's too "hot" for me. You can jump to conclusions about me if you must, just because I found some value and useful information in his post.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostWed Dec 28, 2016 10:27 pm

Howard Roll wrote:I think this outlines a basic problem with camera/tech "personalities".


I think it outlines a basic problem with people in general. If you don't share the same opinion, when something is clearly subjective, then they consider you ignorant, stupid, a fanboy, or whatever. It's pretty childish and brings nothing to the community. Our differences and tastes on what we think looks good are what makes each of us unique and brings variety to the table when it comes to the look and emotion we feel when watching a movie. That too is subjective.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 29, 2016 12:48 am

Everything Paul just wrote +1

I actually prefer the field testing and practical usage testing over the scientific stuff. They both have their place but if I have a choice between a camera system that is antiseptic (?) (clean, like a hospital, you know what I'm saying?) or has a personality that is correct for the project, I'm going to choose the one with the appropriate personality. I like that Hurlbut and Bloom address personalities of the equipment from their own perspective. Those perspectives largely jibe with my own as I am both a cinematographer and a videographer.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 29, 2016 8:45 pm

PaulDelVecchio wrote:I think it outlines a basic problem with people in general. If you don't share the same opinion, when something is clearly subjective, then they consider you ignorant, stupid, a fanboy, or whatever.


Could be a symptom of the age of google. Everybody thinks they have the best information, when all they have is the information google thinks best fits your bias.

Which is why it is so important that you get out of your comfort zone regularly and expose yourself to different if not conflicting ideas and try to understand them even if you still can't agree with them.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 29, 2016 9:03 pm

Yes so much I see nowadays isn't contributing to the conversation but rather trying to prove someone else wrong. Contribute. People need to learn that providing value to others is soooo much more important than proving you are "right."

Either way, I love this community and I think it benefits all of us to help each other out. That's how we all learn and win.

And I think Shane has provided us with a very good reference to base our own opinions on. It's not about who's right. It's about taking the information that's in front of us and basing our own opinion on it that fits the project's aesthetic.

So to those who want to contribute, where do you feel you would expose based on Shane's tests? I like the skintones at 1/2 stop to 1 stop over Shane's 0 baseline.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostThu Dec 29, 2016 10:00 pm

Well, Paul, first let me start by saying that the reason I've looked at Shane's tests in the first place is because it does such an extensive test. He really pushes the camera to find the breaking point. That's why I appreciate what he does. He does it, and shares it with everyone.

I feel that the 1 stop to 1½ stop over Shane's baseline is what my baseline would actually be. This is where Shane says the subjects pop. Well, with False Color I'm positive this is where the camera tells me that the subjects are exposed properly.

Now, Shane's opinion is his opinion. Everyone has one. I take it and I analyze it. If it's worth something to me then great. If not, then there's no harm in hearing it. The best course of action is to hear all sides of an argument. It's the only way to come to a conclusion of your own that at least is balanced. In a balanced opinion we can at least have common ground.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostWed Mar 07, 2018 6:13 pm

So if Shane says that 1 ½-stops over is good for Skin Tones. Does this reflect the Pink on the False Color Display in the Ursa?
Or do i have to see Pink as the base and expose 1 ½-stops over that?
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostWed Mar 07, 2018 6:24 pm

I don't know the color scale that BMD uses -- my camera's colors are mapped differently. The concept is the same however -- and if you understand the Zone System, it's easy to understand.

The trick is to determine which color represents middle gray, aka 18% gray (the same 18%/middle gray that you'd find on a gray card). That is generally a good spot to use as a starting point for determining skin exposure, so once you determine which color on your scale represents middle grey, just move or right to the next zone, and that's your one stop "over exposed" color is -- it might actually be the exposure you want, it's just that it's one stop over middle gray.

Get used to that, and getting used to using false color just takes a little while to get familiar with the colors used in your false color implementation, and you're set.
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostWed Mar 07, 2018 6:53 pm

thanks for the answer!
here is the false color chart found in the Ursa Manual:

Image
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostWed Mar 07, 2018 7:10 pm

Thanks Dan, good to know. So this is the false color,scheme used in the BM EVF?
Rakesh, The Zone system is a very good way to determine exposure, I use it all the time, thanks for your comments on how to apply this to skin exposure.
Cheers
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Re: Shane Hurlbut Tests URSA Mini 4.6K

PostWed Mar 07, 2018 7:38 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Rakesh, The Zone system is a very good way to determine exposure, I use it all the time, thanks for your comments on how to apply this to skin exposure.
Cheers


No problem... it's surprising how easy it is to get good skin tone exposures by just adapting the Zone System. :)
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