Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

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Wayne Steven

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Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 01, 2018 8:03 am

For one, Red is planning prisumer 8k stills below $5k made by Foxconn, isn't it?

The big ones people are interested in here, is that making an 8k pixel architecture, allows the same pixel architecture to be transfer across to be shared with lower resolution smaller sensors. This means that BM sensors can be used across their camera range. 8k s35 goes close to 4k s16, above 4k M3/4rds. So, different sizes of the same sensor can be made. So, the next sensor revision might be interesting.

I suspect though, we might even see an oversized 8k sensor instead.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 01, 2018 10:16 am

There are a few issues. One is sensor technology. Blackmagic doesn't have access to great sensors with high dynamic range outside of the Fairchild sensor lineup, so if they want a flagship sensor with the best image quality that's their ideal company. They don't seem to be able to do smaller-photosite sensors, and so I think large-format is their best strategy. Also data rate and processing for 8K prores could be an issue as well.

I think Blackmagic either sticks with their current 4.6K sensor model and scales it to build a larger 6Kish camera or sticks with their current resolution and builds a V2 camera that can do 120fps 4K and 240fps in 1080p without window. I think that's the next logical upgrade for me.

RED has slightly less dynamic range with their 8K helium sensor, and the sensor readout is much slower too. Who knows what issues Blackmagic would have trying to do the same thing and what their cameras would end up costing. I think Blackmagic's best strategy is to stick to the same resolution and sensor size and just improve the processing to get slightly higher frame-rates or better noise performance. Or possibly figure out a way to shrink the ursa mini pro slightly smaller and lighter using the new carbon-fiber composite of the Pocket camera.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 01, 2018 12:56 pm

BM has aimed at less than top tier. Just being realistic here. You get the tier level you paid for, not $80k+ Red (soon sub $5k 8k by the sound of it). The actual sensor technology licensable is flexible. Some can get better, and it changes over time. As patents began to expire more things become available. So, new sensors come.

It doesn't need to be worse. Newer tech tends to be better, so the smaller photosite could have the same performance. Good HDR tech (not that double frame rubbish) is helpful for smaller sizes and much easier to hit human vision intra scene latitudes.

They have a relationship with Fairchild. If they want to make new sensors then it can be done. You could get an 8k+ full frame sensor using the existing technology. It also means they can be independent, which is bargaining leverage in dealing with other sensor companies (they don't sell off shelf you get something made to make cheap cameras, so there is then no advantage in not selling to you).

What I'm saying, is there are other advantages to doing the 8k technology, in better resolution s35, m43, s16, 2/3rds (b4).
It would be wonderful.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 01, 2018 1:07 pm

i'd rather take a Dual ISO UMP!
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 01, 2018 4:47 pm

Also remember, the larger the sensor, the slower the readout time in a RS, which adds more issues.
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Sean van Berlo

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 01, 2018 4:49 pm

Like Arri says: 'better pixels, not more'
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 01, 2018 11:31 pm

But there is a huge industry which wants to sell more computers, more storage, more of everything …
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 02, 2018 7:02 am

Well there is the fact that the computer power in coming within more affordable scope (depends on the software). Not a long term issue.

Sean, do you believe Arri? How long did they hold performance instead of make a better senseor? The truth is past Arri level of latitude things get closer and closer to his we see. So, you only need soo much performance to make a good image, 16.5+ stops. Past that makes it easier to produce a good image under different conditions, and do some special stuff, but isn't needed. With newer sensor technology, the performance can get to human vision like, on smaller pixels.

Denny. The rolling shutter (RS) depends on the technology. Doing a direct read to the back of the sensor means it should not be much difference. Sony is doing this.

We could argue that anything above 1280x720 is impractical in that sort of way. It is a known problem on CCD's in the past and a clear example of technology limitation. But, like with sensor readout speed, things didn't stay the same. Technology advances overcame the issues and CMOS technology slowed faster and faster readouts at lower and lower power per per quantity and higher resolutions. I know of lots of technologies, and some will sample and convert HDR straight at the pixel. Sony used to read the charge across the chip before conversion, which required a chip substance that worked faster per unit of heat, then resolution went up.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu May 03, 2018 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 02, 2018 10:04 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Well there is the fact that the computer power in coming within more

Sean, do you believe Arri? How long did they hold performance instead of make a better sense?


They don’t seem to have needed to have anyone believe them. It’s self evident when they are the accepted benchmark by which all are measured.

If it wasn’t for an aribtrary requirement from the likes of Netflix, then I’m sure their market penetration would be even great than it already is.

This is where the idiocy of chasing higher specs just because they’re higher truly makes zero sense.

Higher image fidelity ? Yes. Higher resolution ? Not as important.

By the way that Foxconn story is surely the new RED 8K phone ? I don’t think we’re talking about a “real” camera.

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 02, 2018 10:14 pm

For me, I'd prefer a full-frame 6k over super35 8k, given the choice (hopefully with BMD color science and dual iso....and amazing autofocus, as long as we're speculating).

4k delivery is only now becoming common, and 6k capture is more than enough for 4k delivery - let Red chase Ks, I'd prefer a better image.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 02, 2018 10:44 pm

On sensor readout times Wayne, I was referring to the present implementation of the sensor on the GH5S and new BM 4K Pocket Camera. Same story with the BM 4.6K. Yes newer advances in sensor technology may change this, but currently both cameras are windowing the sensor to get faster frame rates for over ranking.

That said, the small 1-inch sensor in the Broadcast Camera can overcrank full UHD to 60fps, up from the 30fps cap on thr. I or Studio, same sensor. So how the sensor is being used, and supporting hardware dedicates it’s limits.

John, I agree with you, improving sensor image quality is more important than pushing the overall resolution limits. Arri has the right idea on sensor quality vs pushing resolution limits.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 03, 2018 12:34 am

John Brawley wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Well there is the fact that the computer power in coming within more

Sean, do you believe Arri? How long did they hold performance instead of make a better sense?


They don’t seem to have needed to have anyone believe them. It’s self evident when they are the accepted benchmark by which all are measured.

If it wasn’t for an aribtrary requirement from the likes of Netflix, then I’m sure their market penetration would be even great than it already is.

This is where the idiocy of chasing higher specs just because they’re higher truly makes zero sense.

Higher image fidelity ? Yes. Higher resolution ? Not as important.

By the way that Foxconn story is surely the new RED 8K phone ? I don’t think we’re talking about a “real” camera.

JB


No, real camera.

That sort of is the point. Arri choose a nominal quality metric for their sensor, but once you get to in scene human vision like dynamic range (16.5 stops) you don't really see more past that in scene, just have options with the image (the difference between Arri and 16.5 is not much, but makes nicer). So, even with smaller pixels 16.5 is hittable with some quality form of mild hdr (not dual exposure) technique on top of present non hdr pixels lattitude. 8k can be done and still hit 4.6k performance or better performance. Don't think that companies are putting the best sensor technology in cheap consumer camera sensors.

8k is the next market phase (one of many planned). There are people that can see it, and report much better clarity on large screens in 8k over 4k. It never matters of the camera man or director can't see it, that doesnt change the fact. I can't see you guys either, but fully accept you all exist, just because of testimony that appranetly you all do.

One of the big uses of 8k is better 4k. Canon was doing this with their tullhd cinema cameras. They used Ultra HD sensor to debayer to better color at full HD. If you listen to Red, 8k is not really 8k, you need 10k+ to make better 8k. So, expect them to come out with 10-12k once 8k is more a shooting thing.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 03, 2018 12:58 am

Denny Smith wrote:On sensor readout times Wayne, I was referring to the present implementation of the sensor on the GH5S and new BM 4K Pocket Camera. Same story with the BM 4.6K. Yes newer advances in sensor technology may change this, but currently both cameras are windowing the sensor to get faster frame rates for over ranking.

That said, the small 1-inch sensor in the Broadcast Camera can overcrank full UHD to 60fps, up from the 30fps cap on thr. I or Studio, same sensor. So how the sensor is being used, and supporting hardware dedicates it’s limits.

John, I agree with you, improving sensor image quality is more important than pushing the overall resolution limits. Arri has the right idea on sensor quality vs pushing resolution limits.
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Denny, refer to my reply to John. Sensors normally use windowing for faster rates. Don't expect what you see out of the pocket 4k to be the best sensor technology they have. So, it's not a basis for limiting what next they bring down from higher end technologies. Look at Panasonic, 8k 20 stop organic sensor. I don't even know if that uses three colour layer pixels like foveon x3 did. I know that these companies are designing such vertical colour technology, and Canon uses it sometimes.

Guys, Arri didn't really improve sensor quality for sometime. They simply made a good job of a quality level not too far from human scene vision's dynamic range. There is not much headroom left. So yes, the next 8k could even outdo the existing range. Don't sweat it. Chill out, let it come. Even if they give me 16k I would have an instant use for it.

The other day we passed by a long shop front that had been covered up with wide stick on photo strips. It looked like it had been obviously uprezed from the smoothed out lines, but was too low resolution. I did a quick measunent and it needed a 40k image to get around 4k like definition, twice that to get 8k, 4 times that again to get in close. It would be stunning and interesting at 40k. So, a long way to go past 8k. But just give me a good foveon x3 like 4k sensor (even 8k) with Sony like technology and near a 100% pixel fiill. Woud be great for filming.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 03, 2018 1:47 am

Yes, I know 8K will undoubtably come some day, when they get it working to where it is a good working quality signal. But meanwhile, their is room for improvement on the existing 4K technology we have today. Not trying to limit the future, heck, we may even some day be riding in tireless cars that control themselves. :roll:
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 03, 2018 5:49 am

Wayne Steven wrote:No, real camera.


No it's not. It's a Phone with an 8K sensor and a new display technology that will likely record with some version of RedCode.

That's not a real camera. It's a really high performing phone.

http://www.red.com/hydrogen

Wayne Steven wrote:That sort of is the point. Arri choose a nominal quality metric for their sensor, but once you get to in scene human vision like dynamic range (16.5 stops) you don't really see more past that in scene, just have options with the image (the difference between Arri and 16.5 is not much, but makes nicer). So, even with smaller pixels 16.5 is hittable with some quality form of mild hdr (not dual exposure) technique on top of present non hdr pixels lattitude. 8k can be done and still hit 4.6k performance or better performance. Don't think that companies are putting the best sensor technology in cheap consumer camera sensors.


The point is that no one is unhappy with the sub 4K 10 year old sensor in Alexa. You can't dismiss it when even today on 2018 most productions preference this camera despite having many technologically on paper better options.

Credit where credit is due please.

Resolution just isn't as important as dynamic range and image fidelity. We've had cheaper higher resolution options for YEARS and they're only preferenced when resolution suits the storytelling or pragmatism. If it wasn't for Netflix actively saying that Alexa wasn't good enough those cameras would have far less market share than they currently do.

4K / 8K / HDR sells Televisions. But it doesn't instantly make your pictures better (Well maybe HDR does).

Peddling this idea of the primacy of resolution whilst denigrating the clear choice of many creatives that is anti-resolution is ignoring the proven reality of this.

As Steve Yedlin says...

"You just can’t tell what you’re going to get based on counting Ks."

https://ascmag.com/articles/a-clear-loo ... resolution

The stills camera market finally stopped their megapixel war, and we need to move beyond these kinds of conversations in motion imaging as well.

I'm sure we'll all be shooting 8K sensors at some point down the road, but it's not a sure path to better images by any stretch.

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 03, 2018 10:27 am

I'm off colour at the moment, but I will say that I am not referring to to current hydrogen (but if it's 8k, I'll have to have another look at it). I am referring to a future more expensive camera they were 5slkimg about. If it turns out to be hydrogen, then O would be happy anyway. But Foxconn were quoting bringing the price of 8k down by down by a factor like 10x. Foxconn has sharp, and they had there own sensor division. So maybe it's a cost cutting relationship. Pay the extra fur a few more stops from a Red cinema camera, or by this. I would not be surprised if the native stop difference turns out to be around 2 stops or more. But it's irrelevant, once they hit 16.5 quality stops with HDR, they have the sweet spot. Present technology can do that on a small sensor. You should see the footage from 20 stop car cams. Definitely a nice rendering of stops there.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 03, 2018 11:15 am

michaeldhead wrote:For me, I'd prefer a full-frame 6k over super35 8k, given the choice (hopefully with BMD color science and dual iso....and amazing autofocus, as long as we're speculating).

4k delivery is only now becoming common, and 6k capture is more than enough for 4k delivery - let Red chase Ks, I'd prefer a better image.


+1.
There is about 0 need (outside serious film projects or some specific needs) for 8K atm. Make 4K cameras (with 6K sensors) much better and more affordable and we all be very happy.
8K is nothing more than money chasing and creating "fake needs".
This RED phone will be most likely as successful as RED RAY player :)
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 08, 2018 6:12 am

RED phone might be successful and do good things for the RED brand. But I think 8K video overall is ridiculous.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 08, 2018 9:20 am

Still would make a great compact BTS content camera. Able to derive posters from still frames you capture on the spare of the moment. For hydrogen module, also 3D footage and posters. Would be amazing if it was 8K, but I don't even expect their cinema module to do that.

So how's that. It's the new ways if doing things that people come up with which is legendary, not just using what somebody else came up with years ago, insisting it can't be done better when it could. BM didn't come up with anything really innovative, not even Red does. Mostly it is just seeing what has been done and developing on that, and buy in innovation if needed. They are about as innovative as the Australian government's innovation steps.

A friend of mine nocked his sunglasses off the table, and was carefully checking them for scratches. They were $250 of course. I told him about the Korean store that has stands of sunglasses for $10 or so. Basically, you damage it, chuck it and buy another $10 one. It's like that with cameras a bit. Phones are sometimes delivering mostly beyond old professional quality these days. Yet people huff and puff about how unprofessional quality they are, but they were perfectly willing to use inferior quality professionally decades back. Are they saying that everybody around decades back and there content were not professional, no. But professional is a bit of what you do with what you got, and still delivering great content.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 1:23 am

So a 50mp 8K cinema camera full frame from cinemartin has popped up. You guys will be happy to know, it only records uncompressed. Real competition at last (well it is uncompressed which is an issue vs compression. But it's early days. At the moment the 8k Reds cost enough to easily allow room for them, and I suspect they will do a recorder). One nore reason for an 8k BM.

Re-edit:

Seems this is going very set up like a mirrorless, with future modules to the right and left of the camera head.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 2:40 am

Can't record beyond 4K 24fps in color, EF mount only? :?
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 4:39 am

Jack Fairley wrote:Can't record beyond 4K 24fps in color, EF mount only? :?


Initially after release. There is an upgrade to 8k colour, but does do monochrome in 8k at first.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 11:04 am

Wayne Steven wrote: Real competition at last


Huh ?

This is worse than vapourware.

A company you've never heard of announce a drawing of a proposed camera, which by the way, is something the company has never made before and with no history of making cameras (hello colour science), initially shipping in 2019 and only capable of 4K recording initially with *k as a later update and no price announced as yet.

Last time a random guy decided to make a cinema camera, he had limitless cash to burn and still made a few mistakes.

How exactly is this "real competition at last" ?

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 11:30 am

You would have to come out with something like that John.

Let's see as far as I'm concerned a lot of companies fit that description, even BM. I hadn't heard of them too much. It's a grossly unfair derogatory statement. Also I've seen colour science not even as good as my $100 pocket video camera from some well known companies. When even elcheapo companies want to, they release relatively good color science straight off the bat (its not super complex) not take years and years to get there, while people praise them as geniuses.

Cinemartin has been going for 8 years with a number of products (a little BM you could say). I've been getting email from them for years. They started aiming at cameras years ago.

Competition, because lean and mean they can lower the entry price for 8k. Though the camera requires add ons and is not that flash otherwise, it still can influence others.

Now, due to processing constraints they are starting 4k color and 8k mono, and adding more in a firmware update/hardware update (that is the scary bit the hardware. How much?). You get wat you pay for, I'm not expecting too much from this.

BTW, it is Sept/Oct they release.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 11:38 am

Wayne Steven wrote:So a 50mp 8K cinema camera full frame from cinemartin has popped up. You guys will be happy to know, it only records uncompressed. Real competition at last (well it is uncompressed which is an issue vs compression. But it's early days. At the moment the 8k Reds cost enough to easily allow room for them, and I suspect they will do a recorder). One nore reason for an 8k BM.

Re-edit:

Seems this is going very set up like a mirrorless, with future modules to the right and left of the camera head.


First I would like to see it working.
I expect even more problems than with initial BM cameras ( but I may be very wrong).
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 11:48 am

Wayne Steven wrote:You would have to come out with something like that John.



I don't understand what you're saying here.

Wayne Steven wrote:Let's see as far as I'm concerned a lot of companies fit that description, even BM. I hadn't heard of them too much. It's a grossly unfair derogatory statement.


Is it ?
BMD have hundreds of employees when they started making cameras and 20 years of history in making products in post that sold in the thousands of units.
These guys a re a boutique one off type company that have sold...maybe a few hundred units (i bet it's a lot less)
They've never made a camera.
When I go their website and try and click on links i get a 404 error on most of the links. Not a good look really.
The products they do make appear to be monitor / recorders. It's a massive leap to making a camera. (And it looks like the recorders are just embedded Blackmagic recorders !!!??)

They haven't specified a price. I dare you to guess what it will be.

I love any camera that works and that I can get my hands on today. This is not that camera.

I think they're a long way from being ready to ship and be field ready. No price, no demo pictures.

When you say "at long last" it says something different to me than what you think it says.

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 12:01 pm

Yes, their hardware and software is just a "GUI" on top of others/open source products.
I would not put high hope on this camera.

They should be more realistic and try maybe with good HD or at most UHD camera. Going to 8K as first product is just insane- not a real business decision, but purely ambitious one.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 1:55 pm

Lol! Going cheaper 8k is actually brilliant. Going hd or 4k runs the risk of failure, as people can get them elsewhere and can simply miss you. 8k is a premium profit margin product in a market which is dominated by premium prices, allowing you to undercut them, and 8k generates hype, attracting people, generating sales. If you don't realise it Red got hype from 4k when it started too.

A lot of things are made with third party software and hardware these days.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 2:42 pm

I'd be pretty shocked to see a RED prosumer anything. Anyone else remember "4k for $4k?" I do. RED marketed that pretty hard maybe around 2008. Then it just sputtered out, never being mentioned again. Not to mention Raven, which started out looking pretty damn affordable. But if you checked in on it occasionally you noticed the price for the body grew a grand more with each passing month until it was shipped to Apple and packaged up with a bizarre starter kit to inflate the price even further.

On topic: While I certainly don't want to understate the fact that an 8k camera with BM's codecs especially would force me to spend additional thousands to upgrade my editing system to be able to handle it, and knowing that I still mostly deliver HD formats as the majority of my work is commercial based, I'd absolutely love at least a somewhat affordable and hq 6k camera, if not 8k. The flexibility in post of re framing shots really opens the door for convenience and creativity. But that's just my opinion.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 2:57 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:You would have to come out with something like that John.


I don't understand what you're saying here.

Wayne Steven wrote:Let's see as far as I'm concerned a lot of companies fit that description, even BM. I hadn't heard of them too much. It's a grossly unfair derogatory statement.


Is it ?

..Huh ?

This is worse than vapourware...


Yes.

>>BMD have hundreds of employees when they started making cameras and 20 years of history in making products in post that sold in the thousands of units.
These guys a re a boutique one off type company that have sold...maybe a few hundred units (i bet it's a lot less)

Do you really think he has survived 8 years and designed a range of products on just hundreds of sales John?

I would imagine thousands of sales.

>>When I go their website and try and click on links i get a 404 error on most of the links. Not a good look really.

Lol! Maybe a site rehash or hack. I got to the product page and downloaded the brochure with pictures. Seen a picture of some sort of unit too.

>>They haven't specified a price. I dare you to guess what it will be.

You can tell them the price. They ask you on the link in the page. But seriously, you either going to go high as those sort of people can afford the extra expense of recording uncompressed and backing up in the background on a production schedule, or low to accommodate the extra rigging and recording costs. But seriously, you can buy it as a high quality 4k+ camera to do 4:2:2 etc to an external recorder monitor. 15.5 stops (he hasn't mentioned HDR, so that would put it in line with latest Sony's) and doing 4k from 8k could be sharp and more accurate color detail.

>>I love any camera that works and that I can get my hands on today. This is not that camera.

I think they're a long way from being ready to ship and be field ready. No price, no demo pictures.

When you say "at long last" it says something different to me than what you think it says.

JB

At long last something is on the horizon. A lot of outfits go belly up, and the market has slowed for sometime. I'm a fan of the Sony 15.5 stop sensor tech. Lower end cameras are even getting it but the Pocket hasn't. I look at the samples and am uneasy.

The issues BM had, was with the machine vision side of the industry. A proper filming/stills orientated sensor company should have a lot worked out for customers to get such a camera running. There are many cheap cameras that are based on other's design.
Another issue was trying to do a custom version, expensive.

John, I could say I prefer a camera that works and I can get my hands on today about many BM cameras and others in between being announced and released. But they often do. So it's up to them. Except as a camera head I don't have much use for a non codec 8k camera. I hope they get a codec recording solution
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu May 10, 2018 3:07 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:01 pm

Sorry Wayne, but I thought you are someone with experience in hardware development (at least that was the impression you always tried to make). So you should know what it needs to be successful in developing new complex products like a 8k cine camera.

Announcing a camera to be available in late 2018 and only having a crude outline sketch of a cube with a tube is a joke. I have closely watched RED at their first appearance and they had tenfold the credibility than this.

By the way: Using stolen images (golfer in rolling vs global shutter) in your announcement is not a good start: http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/www ... index.html
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:18 pm

Looks like we are talking about the CMV50000 sensor:
https://ams.com/documents/20143/36005/C ... 29ac212aec

Fun fact: ams AG (austriamicrosystems) happens to be a company having their headquarter only 15 km away from where I live. They bought NXP and CMOSIS in 2015 and Cambridge CMOS Sensors Ltd in 2016.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:23 pm

I'm still wondering if it is a Sony sensor. Sony don't list everything on their site. If it is a Sony, we are likely to see other cameras pop up with it. But I wouldn't expect a a9 class not to get it on it's own for 6-12 months. Ahh, the sales of the a9 might not be a huge run. But still. The Pegasus global shutter technology is in their industrial sensor. But there is no big sensors there. Maybe they are trying to shift this with such a great hardware burden, so he has been able to grab hold of it.

Robert, I think you misunderstand. They are likely using somebody else's camera head circuits, putting their lattice on it just to pipe data straight to disk no compression or much else. Keeping it "simp!e" for them. Its no Red Weapon. Its could be just a data pipe between others hardware.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:27 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:By the way: Using stolen images (golfer in rolling vs global shutter) in your announcement is not a good start: http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/www ... index.html


Just looking at the...white paper, I guess....makes me want to avoid this camera. If it works, more power to them.

But the way they describe their storage: "Non-proprietary media" means recording to fix internal media, then you have to dump the footage through TB3 or USB(!) to a hard drive? Even at 2 TB of internal storage and the fastest off-load drive, you're looking at stopping production entirely for (according to them) a minimum of 16 minutes every time you need to off-load footage; and that's if everything works perfectly.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:29 pm

Robert, that's a different sensor.

Does Cambridge or NXP do a sensor like this?
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:31 pm

Steven, the CMV50000 has a resolution of 7920 x 6004px: 47.5Mp, global shutter and 36.4mm x 27.6mm

Gorgeous 50 MP sensor World highest resolution.
An 8K sensor 4:3 with a resolution of 7920 x 6024 providing up to 24 fps at 47.7 MP
Sensor 4:3 – 37 x 27mm
http://www.canonrumors.com/industry-new ... 8k-camera/
Last edited by Robert Niessner on Thu May 10, 2018 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:37 pm

Michael, Yep! I think they say 8 minutes. But that's a pain. A better way would be for it to do a background back up during filming. Between takes it could try to catch up. I wonder if there is going be 5 Samsung SSD's in there to keep up?
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:40 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Michael, Yep! I think they say 8 minutes. But that's a pain. A better way would be for it to do a background back up during filming. Between takes it could try to catch up. I wonder if there is going be 5 Samsung SSD's in there to keep up?


They said 8 minutes for 1TB - but popping in a new memory card is still faster. Time is money, as they say, and having everyone stop for 10-15 minutes after....with 8k raw....maybe 30 minutes of shooting time? Not a good idea, in my opinion.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:45 pm

Ignore canon rumors, they are quoting the VistaVision frame resolution specs, which is different specs from the cmv anyway. Cinemartin quotes higher resolution, size and stops then that sensor has.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:47 pm

michaeldhead wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Michael, Yep! I think they say 8 minutes. But that's a pain. A better way would be for it to do a background back up during filming. Between takes it could try to catch up. I wonder if there is going be 5 Samsung SSD's in there to keep up?


They said 8 minutes for 1TB - but popping in a new memory card is still faster. Time is money, as they say, and having everyone stop for 10-15 minutes after....with 8k raw....maybe 30 minutes of shooting time? Not a good idea, in my opinion.


You are right, they need a background off load and or removable drive cage.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:48 pm

I don't know what canon rumors says, I'm just going off of my experience with shooting even compressed 4k. My estimation might be way off, but it's still not a lot of time.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 3:55 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Ignore canon rumors, they are quoting the VistaVision frame resolution specs, which is different specs from the cmv anyway. Cinemartin quotes higher resolution, size and stops then that sensor has.


I don't see any different specs in the official PDF from cinemartin:
https://www.cinemartin.com/cameras/fran ... 180510.pdf

Do you really think a mini company like Cinemartin will get access to a special 8k Sony sensor?

The CMV50000 has 64dB of dynamic range which translates to around 11 stops - the same the first RED Mysterium sensor had. But it also supports an interleaved HDR mode with 2 exposure times for odd/even columns. I guess this is where Cinemartin gets the 15.5 stops of DR.

If you look at the fact sheet of the CMV12000:
https://ams.com/documents/20143/36005/C ... 9f9f2a00f6

You can see it has 60db of DR and a HDR mode resulting in 90dB of DR.
60dB is 10 stops and 90 dB is 15 stops.

So starting with the CMV50000 at 64dB which is ~10.5 stops + HDR mode +5 stops = 15.5 stops.

There is also a nice white paper about the HDR modes:
https://ams.com/documents/20143/36005/C ... 48ac628d3c
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 4:48 pm

Oh and here:
https://www.illunis.com/area-scan-camer ... tter-cmos/

Basic camera system based on the CMV50000 with - surprise - Camera link, USB3.0, GigE and mount options: M58, M72, Nikon F, Canon EF, Phase 1
And - surprise - Configuration Mono, Bayer Color
-> https://www.illunis.com/wp-content/uplo ... L-CMOS.pdf
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 8:19 pm

7920 x 6024 at 24p 12bit RAW is about 1.7GB/sec so pushing even M.2 quite a lot. At the moment 30p is probably unachievable as even best M.2 will struggle to keep steady 2GB/sec+.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 10, 2018 10:36 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Do you really think a mini company like Cinemartin will get access to a special 8k Sony sensor?

The CMV50000 has 64dB of dynamic range which translates to around 11 stops - the same the first RED Mysterium sensor had. But it also supports an interleaved HDR mode with 2 exposure times for odd/even columns. I guess this is where Cinemartin gets the 15.5 stops of DR.



AJA Cion, Axiom and three Blackmagic 4K cameras used a GS sensor that was supposed to have a number of special HDR DR extention modes.

Guess what...It looked terrible.

No one implemented this "feature" because it didn't work (for the purposes of narrative drama)

Once again wishful thinking when looking at sensor specs doesn't always translate into nice pictures.

And Wayne, if they'd sold thousands of monitors. I've worked on many continents on many shows with many crews. I like to stay current with gear and I've never heard of them.

Of course it's possible they're wonderful but the pragmatist and skeptic in me says they have a very uphill battle.

This camera if it ever ships will sell for more than 10K.

The Sony MF sensors as far as I know have integration times that are too slow for motion that's good enough for what we want (Fuji / Phase One / X1D etc) unless that's changed in the last few months. They list video capabilities, but in reality...

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 11, 2018 12:05 am

Robert. They clearly claim a different size and resolution. They didn't claim hdr, but maybe it is. I thought there was a striped her mode on the CMV, from memory, but only read sequential hdr when I scanned it this time.

I admit, the whole thing is strange, simply because we don't know enough. It could be some behind the scenes thing, with the sensor meant for several cameras at least (not so special, but this being the only one we know of so far with a new sensor.

I personally will be disappointed if it is the CMV50000. I turned off of it after so read it's specs when it came out. The striped HDR was hopeful, but I was concerned about the results (Sony has a dual exposure on one or more sensitive ranges). Looks like it right. Maybe it's only really good for one or two stops. That's nearly 12-13 stops. Also disappointed if it means what is reported is rounded up.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 11, 2018 12:48 am

As a regular reviewer of hard- and software for a respected German magazine, Digital Production from Munich, I can't take that company very serious. In early 2017 I asked them to send me a sample of their monitor Loyal LT 7" for a review. Plus, at that time they announced another monitor/recorder to be capable of recording RAW from a Red camera and I asked further information about it and possibly a sample once available.

Next they offered to send me one Loyal LT 7" to stay with me, which is not common at all (for hardware) and I consider that incorrect, since they might expect it to influence me. Companies like Sony or BM send me hardware to test for a reasonable period and I have to send it back ( I tested lots of their cameras, for example). Normally it's shipped too me at their cost and sending back is either on them or on my publisher. Nevertheless, I agreed to send me one, but wanted to send it back. Oh, and I expected it to be shipped from Spain, since they are a Spanish company and I'm in the EU too, so no taxes or customs duty. Guess what happened?

Weeks later I get a massive invoice from DHL, including taxes and duty, asking me why I didn't pick up my delivery from China (I never got a tracking note or anything). Asking what it was, I found out it was a monitor (unspecified model). I turned delivery down and never heard from them again. BTW, until now not a word on their website about that other monitor with RedRAW recording.

Unless they send me a working sample of that camera out of Spain for a review, I don't even care to read their product announcements any more.

BTW: that monitor, which is still on their site, looks very much like a cheap no-name we bought later that year straight from China, even the on-screen display. We use it at our university. It is robust and does the job, though, even if we had to fix one bad soldering of the menu wheel. I wonder if they would have a repair service in Spain in case I would have bought their version…
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 11, 2018 12:51 am

John. See my reply to Robert. I didn't see the striping thing as terribly good quality idea, and looks like it was exactly right. It might be that it is most usable for one or two stops gain, rather than around 5 stops. But a 1-2 stops mild hdr would be useful at times on any camera that has it. You should talk to Grant?

[Quote]And Wayne, if they'd sold thousands of monitors. I've worked on many continents on many shows with many crews. I like to stay current with gear and I've never heard of them.[\quote]

Never confuse ones remote experience with reality. Even scientists get it wrong. We don't know where he is selling to make a living, or in what circles. The world doesn't stop at the doorstep of our experience.

>> Of course it's possible they're wonderful but the pragmatist and skeptic in me says they have a very uphill battle.

That's not skeptism John, there is no real proof of many of these things. We can't conclude they are vaporware don't sell enough to make a living or have whatever quality of workmanship as alleged around here. Skeptism is, we'll see what happens and conclude on clear evidences (verified enough). You notice I don't claim they are great or any of the hype that usually happens when fans meet cameras. The fact that they are doing expensive business and relatively expensive development for many years and surviving indicates there should be sales there (but maybe he is a millionaire fur example). I could calculate in my head that the striped hdr was probably goning give issues, and done calculated 7680 pixel 2.35:1 region of interest 50 fps (over 3GB/s) and knowing about other overheads in sensors (and how much more 10 bit of 12 bit is). I'm skeptical if you could overclock things enough to even do it at 8 bits. All skeptism on relatively reasonable grounds.

>> This camera if it ever ships will sell for more than 10K.

I'm hoping it's under $5k, so I can quote that :)

>> The Sony MF sensors as far as I know have integration times that are too slow for motion that's good enough for what we want (Fuji / Phase One / X1D etc) unless that's changed in the last few months. They list video capabilities, but in reality...

I'm thinking, if it was, it might be some new special sized Pegasus industrial sensor. That would be easier for them to lay hold of, as most companies buying it are smaller. It would better explain some of the numbers. Global shutter often comes with a performance penalty. If it is the CMV, that would be disappointing. Maybe the hdr mode is useful at 4k binning, but not 8k. But that's me. For a number of people using less than 15 stops for 8k wouldn't matter so much.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 11, 2018 1:03 am

John and Robert. Some thoughts on stuff they have said. Outside the sensor 8k is really just like doing 4x4k sensors. There is no magic. Ambarella does a, relatively, low end chip that handles 8k, with a slight change in design it could present the raw 8k for off circuit recording. FPGA, like cinemartin says they are using, has some restrictions over a sophisticated chip like that. They speak of the issues with global shutter dumping data too quickly. I'm thinking a multitap higher speed sensor might be presenting data on a number of lines at once increasing the sophistication on the lattice network being set up.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 11, 2018 1:19 am

Uli. Did you really expect them to manufacture in Spain and survive?
A lot of stuff gets done out of Asia.

Looks like that is the way they do things (for better or worse). Frankly, I would have done it better, and ship from the office in Spain, even arranging return. It's almost like what a much younger company would do. I would be more worried if you found a string of faulty products and little good service instead. Not one person I have read has mentioned a horror story yet (but not much reading, mostly hype based anti-fans masquerading as skeptism).
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