Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

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Que Thompson

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Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostMon Jan 07, 2019 4:32 pm

I'm curious to know how the NEW forum members are handling the video files from their Pocket 4K. On paper it sounds great, but in reality, handling these files is a completely new world coming from typical DSLR and GH5 type cameras.

1. Are you all in?
2. Do you wish you knew that you were getting into?
3. Do you plan to go back to GH5 Land?

I really hope BRAW comes for the Pocket, I'm shooting everything in ProRes LT right now and the files are still HUGE. I had the original BMCC and only decided to get a GH4 at the time because I wanted slow motion. Moved to GH5 and now back with the Pocket 4k. I have a great machine that can handle the files but I can see that storage is going to be a problem going forward.

HOWEVER, I knew this coming in. I can't imagine someone coming in to this world with no idea about this.

I'm seeing comments that suggest that many people did not know what a cinema camera was. Anyone care to share their experience (initial expectations vs actual real world results, etc.)?
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Craig Seeman

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostMon Jan 07, 2019 7:31 pm

10 bit and 12 bit 4:2:2 codecs tend to be much larger than 8 bit 4:2:0 codecs. It depends on whether you need that to grade or do FX work in post. It depends on whether the quality is critical to you. I use ProRes LT for Online destined work. I've used 8 bit 4:2:0 in other cameras and it's fine if you like the results as near final output with only light grading.
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dsorbera

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostMon Jan 07, 2019 8:33 pm

If your worried about storage space I would recommend shooting 1080 at prores 422 instead of 4k/uhd prores LT. LT throws away a ton of data and it's not worth it unless it's going to be viewed on a smartphone sized screen.

Prores encodes each frame as a still, so even though the files are bigger than your standard h.264 files it's going to be worse quality of equal bitrate.
For example, in the GH5 you can use the 400mbps codec, or the 150mbps codec, and the quality of the two is almost identical. That's because that 400mbps codec on the GH5 is encoding each separate frame like Prores does.
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David Chapman

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostMon Jan 07, 2019 9:32 pm

Hey Que,
What about the 4K Pocket made you want it over the Gh5 already in hand? Were you unsatisfied with the GH5 at all or were you just wanting higher bit depth video? I’m always curious when someone changes camera formats and models.

On the file size, I’d think almost people looked at the data rate charts to see what new recording sizes would be, especially when looking to purchase recording media. Sure some might not know anything about the camera when they get it, but I wonder how rare that is?
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dsorbera

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostMon Jan 07, 2019 10:57 pm

FWIW I'm a user who switched from the GH5 to the pocket 4k. I wanted to love the GH5. It ticked all the boxes and the IBIS was the most amazing thing since sliced bread. IMO every video camera should include IBIS as good as that.

BUT I absolutely hated the image. I was never satisfied with the colors (especially skin tones) even in good light, and the low light was appalling.

The pocket 4k misses the EVF, articulating screen, great battery life, smaller file sizes, and most importantly (for me) the IBIS of the GH5. BUT I am in love with the image I get out of it, AND the low light is incredible. iso 1250 is stupidly clean, like there is no way it should be this clean. And when paired with an f1.8 or better lens with a speed booster you rarely need to go higher than 1250, but I use as high as 6400 with no issue on the quality.
On the GH5 iso 1600 was totally unacceptable to my eye.

So what it boiled down to for me was that I was prepared to give up all the usability of the GH5 for an image I can be proud of.
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rick.lang

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostMon Jan 07, 2019 11:29 pm




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Dune00z

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 12:34 am

The pocket 4k delivers on everything I wanted in regards to IQ, and I almost purely shoot in prores. The prores look amazing with this camera and as said earlier in the thread, the cleanliness and color detail of the higher ISO is fantastic. Only complaint is some red channel issues at the clipping point which I have been able to deal with when it crops up occasionally but would like a regular adjustment made by BMD if they could.

As far as raw goes, I can leave it since the prores looks so good there's not much reason for me to deal with the extra load on storage space. Once BRAW comes out however, I will probably opt for that instead as BRAW so far has looked quite amazing from the Ursa.
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Que Thompson

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 5:10 am

David Chapman wrote:Hey Que,
What about the 4K Pocket made you want it over the Gh5 already in hand? Were you unsatisfied with the GH5 at all or were you just wanting higher bit depth video? I’m always curious when someone changes camera formats and models.

On the file size, I’d think almost people looked at the data rate charts to see what new recording sizes would be, especially when looking to purchase recording media. Sure some might not know anything about the camera when they get it, but I wonder how rare that is?


I understood what I was getting into. I’m just reading lots of comments around the forum that suggest that most newcomers didn’t know. So I wanted to ask.

I wanted that pro image. That was my goal and I’ve got it with the pocket. The gh5 was way more convenient, but it’s a trade that I’m willing to make. I’m only about 2 months in with my pocket, my bmcc was the same way, as I was coming from a 5D mark III back then.

I think the average person looks at a video shot by an expert and think “I want that camera”. It’s the poor mans red really. Personally I don’t think a lot of people understand data rates and the like. They just say, “that looks nice... it looks like a red.” They don’t understand the power issues, grading, workflow, storage issues, etc. never mind lighting... I’m not saying they don’t know anything about the camera... it’s kind of like a puppy.. or a diesel truck rather. looks cool, but are you ready for the maintenance?

These cameras are not for beginners imho. Lots of people slapping of the shelf grades on footage and calling it a day. The people who ask questions like “Why does my footage look washed out?” That’s who I want to hear from really.


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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 6:09 am

Que Thompson wrote: I really hope BRAW comes for the Pocket, I'm shooting everything in ProRes LT right now and the files are still HUGE.
According to BMD, BRAW will come to the Pocket. But, even after that day arrives, there's some things you should know.

4K/UHD is 4x the data rate of 2K/HD. So, to get the same lower data rate as 2K/HD, you have to add 4x the compression to the 4K/UHD. All compression has consequences. My advice is, BRAW or no BRAW, one lovely feature of the 4K Pocket you might look at taking advantage of is instead of shooting in 4K/UHD you can record ProRes HQ from the full sensor in 2K/HD. Doing so will give you plenty of latitude for color grading, without the hassle of large (and usually unnecessary) 4K data rates.

If your clients & budgets can't fund the storage that 4K requires, you can do what most of the professional industry still does today and work at 2K. A majority of Hollywood movies and TV dramas, are still mastered in 2K (yes, I know, most Netflix originals are an exception but that has more to do with marketing + fear of lawsuits than it does any visible improvement to image quality). Resolve (and many other finishing applications) can do an optical quality upscale after mastering, so at the distances we all sit from our giant televisions, even the latest monstrously large 4K TV, you (and your audience) will never be able to see the difference between well mastered 2K content versus 4K content.

But hey, don't take it from me. Take it from Steve Yedlin, the DP for Star Wars: The Last Jedi
http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 7:09 am

Que Thompson wrote:I wanted that pro image. That was my goal and I’ve got it with the pocket. The gh5 was way more convenient, but it’s a trade that I’m willing to make. I’m only about 2 months in with my pocket, my bmcc was the same way, as I was coming from a 5D mark III back then.


Anyone who was at all talented who tried a Black Magic camera wouldn't go back to a Canon. Sony maybe, but then really just for the crazy low light capability, which is severely overrated.

I think the average person looks at a video shot by an expert and think “I want that camera”. It’s the poor mans red really.


Yes, pretty much. The image quality with a Pocket4K isn't really determined by the camera contrary to popular belief; it is in fact determined largely by the lighting and finishing. The camera just gives you an upper limit, it's up to the cinematographer to reach that.

These cameras are not for beginners imho. Lots of people slapping of the shelf grades on footage and calling it a day. The people who ask questions like “Why does my footage look washed out?” That’s who I want to hear from really.


You're quite right. They're clearly designed for professional workflows.
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Chris Whitten

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 9:11 am

Not all Pocket 4K purchasers are new to the ways of Blackmagic and RAW.
I used the original pocket for years. Shot exclusively raw footage.
My set up probably doesn't have the grunt to shoot top quality raw on the Pocket 4K, so I'm waiting on BRAW. In the meantime I'm practising with the camera shooting ProRes HQ.
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Sam Biddle

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 1:49 pm

I do not think the P4K presents any insurmountable obstacles to new users; you mention the data it produces, yet SSD storage has never been cheaper. I should think if you were able to buy the camera you could and should buy additional storage. Likewise with processing the footage, the way some describe this makes it seem you'd need a supercomputer - not the case at all, a half decent gpu and Resolve will get you where you need to be. Also as others have said, you don't need to shoot 4K all the time.

In fact I found the P4K very user friendly and very intuitive, I can imagine film schools will love them; I recall when I left university they were ordering in the (then new) BMCC cameras for the film and vfx departments.
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Que Thompson

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 4:11 pm

I'm not saying "everyone" who bought a p4k didn't know what they were getting in to. What it comes down to is the desire to learn. Everybody likes sausage, but most don't want to know how it's made. Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die. The jist of my post is simply saying that many people want the pro image, but don't want to put the work in to get it or don't even know what it takes to achieve that image outside of buying a camera.
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Sam Biddle

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 6:01 pm

Well in all honesty it's quite a condescending contention. A beginner may get a great deal of mileage out of this camera or the original pocket despite the steep learning curve initially. Everyone has to start somewhere and of course there will be a few who buy into the camera, not the craft. That said, you yourself stated in a previous post:
I wanted that pro image. That was my goal and I’ve got it with the pocket.

So, do you think you got the "Pro" look because you bought the Pocket? If so, you may forgive others for having the same impression.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 6:06 pm

Sam Biddle wrote:Well in all honesty it's quite a condescending contention. A beginner may get a great deal of mileage out of this camera or the original pocket despite the steep learning curve initially.


Anyone willing to take on the learning curve will get a great deal of mileage out of it. There will also be those who think that the camera will do their work for them, and they'll be diappointed.

So, do you think you got the "Pro" look because you bought the Pocket? If so, you may forgive others for having the same impression.


From the context of the post, I don't think that was the only factor. The people who will be disappointed by the Pocket are only the ones who think that buying the camera is the hard part.
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Que Thompson

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 6:11 pm

Sam Biddle wrote:Well in all honesty it's quite a condescending contention. A beginner may get a great deal of mileage out of this camera or the original pocket despite the steep learning curve initially. Everyone has to start somewhere and of course there will be a few who buy into the camera, not the craft. That said, you yourself stated in a previous post:
I wanted that pro image. That was my goal and I’ve got it with the pocket.

So, do you think you got the "Pro" look because you bought the Pocket? If so, you may forgive others for having the same impression.


:lol: I see you want to be confrontational. You've completely lost the original intent of this post. I have a history with these cameras, the workflow and everything involved in achieving the "pro" look. What I was lacking were the codecs, bit depth, dynamic range, etc. (of course I'm not 100% there in my eyes... and the "look" is personal preference). I was addressing the people who are getting this as their first camera or even 2nd... but do not understand what it takes to get that "pro" look. Can you imagine their frustration? I wanted to hear from them. Not you. I also said that "it comes down to a desire to learn". Why didn't you quote that? You've added nothing.
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joe12south

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 10:57 pm

I'm coming from over a decade shooting on the GH series, (but I often transcoded those files to ProRes, anyhow.)

I found it relatively easy to prepare my workflow. The data rates are published. It's not a mystery. I made sure to have enough online and nearline storage for the type of projects I do. Offline storage is pretty cheap, and getting cheaper every day. (And I only store original files indefinitely if someone pays for it, or it is a special personal project.)

I did learn very quickly that there was no reason to shoot uncompressed RAW. That's really just a waste of space for 99% of, well, anything. That was hard to know without testing and experiencing it first hand.

I also discounted the convenience of simply plugging the same SSD into my camera and my computer. That's so nice that it has overwhelmed any negative thought of how much storage space I am chewing through. :-)

PS. I do look forward to BRAW being one easy to manage file instead of gajillions of CDNG's,
PPS. I could just shoot ProRes, but I've already had a couple of instances where "Recover highlights" saved shots, so I'm sold.
Pocketluts: Purpose-built LUT system for the Black Magic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: Suprise! 4K Raw Everthing You Hoped?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 11:28 pm

dsorbera wrote:If your worried about storage space I would recommend shooting 1080 at prores 422 instead of 4k/uhd prores LT. LT throws away a ton of data and it's not worth it unless it's going to be viewed on a smartphone sized screen.



Dunno, maybe this was a joke and I didn’t get it : ). Because, to me, what you are saying is a deviation of the fact that Prores LT 4k from the BMPCC4k is far superior than most cameras recording H264 4k. Telling someone that Prores LT 4k is only good for a mobile phone is rather… funny and strongly misleading.

LT look really good on a 4k monitor. Most people will have a hard time tell the difference between LT and 422 or even HQ. Only when cropping in more than 2x and applying HEAVY colour grade may show some difference when it comes to compression, not latitude or colour. Proxy on the other hand suffer from heavy visible compression.

You are correct that it’s reasonable to use 422:1080p to get away with smaller files and keep great IQ. Prores 422 1080p is great for most professional production IMO.

Maybe news to some. BRAW algorithms are already applied in the BMPCC4K, today, when recording Prores. You obviously don’t get RAW abilities, but you get latitude and noise/grain signal that is expected from an early beta BRAW codec. This help Prores to be even better than expected from the BMPCC4k, giving it a sharp edge so to speak.

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