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Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

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computerguru

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Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostThu Feb 07, 2019 5:45 pm

So, the last update to Fusion was 9.0.2 back in July of last year...yet DaVinci Resolve 15 has been seeing 1-2 updates per month. Could you maybe show the same love to Fusion...especially for those who shelled out $300 for a Studio license and have seen zero stability improvements/new features in 7 months? Asking for a friend... :lol:
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michael vorberg

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostThu Feb 07, 2019 6:37 pm

Actually, version 9.0.2 ist from Dezember 2017

But there are several threads here complaining about the lack of updates and information
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highbeamstudios

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostThu Feb 07, 2019 8:06 pm

I bought a Fusion Studio Licence which also lets me use resolve. I wonder if this will still be the case if they do Kill Fusion standalone.

Pretty annoying if it wont.
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Kel Philm

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostFri Feb 08, 2019 1:38 am

Best you can do is make your voices heard and hope that soon Grant Petty will turn around and say 'We have been listening to Fusion users so V10 is on the way!'. Otherwise if they do plan to shelve it (it would be nice if they could at least let us know) perhaps they can open the code to the user group who can give it some love. I wonder if the Blender foundation would be interested in creating its own stand alone Comp software? They are doing some incredible things with Blender ATM. Has anybody had a good look at Natron recently?
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highbeamstudios

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostFri Feb 08, 2019 1:51 am

If they do kill Fusion standalone I cant see them releasing it to the community. Same as Autodesk with Softimage, They wanted to keep the tech for their other apps. And BM have done that by putting Fusion inside Resolve.

I heard that Natron didn't have a developer anymore. Not sure if its dead or just in limbo until someone else decides to work on it. I guess that is one down side of opensource.
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Kel Philm

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostFri Feb 08, 2019 4:12 am

I'd like to think BMD are a nicer bunch than Autodsesk ;)

If they axe the standalone version of Fusion that means serious compositors only have Nuke left which is a scary prospect for all. Fusion in Resolve has also introduced a lot of new users to Fusion stand alone who are using it for more complex stuff (and because Fusion in Resolve is really a bit crappy).

I live in hope.
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highbeamstudios

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostFri Feb 08, 2019 11:14 am

I think we all live in hope, But how a company can see this silence as a good marketing strategy I will never know.

I am enjoying using fusion and Davinci but my opinion of Blackmagic has diminished.
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Vladimir LaFortune

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostFri Feb 08, 2019 5:48 pm

Well all you have to do is go to the front page and see if it mentions Fusion anywhere and that would be your answer. Mention of Davinci Resolve's Fusion after two screen scroll gives you the definite answer. So there is that.

Btw why does their homepage look like oldschool ad banner grid from ten years ago?
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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostSun Feb 10, 2019 2:23 am

highbeamstudios wrote:I think we all live in hope, But how a company can see this silence as a good marketing strategy I will never know.

I am enjoying using fusion and Davinci but my opinion of Blackmagic has diminished.

They've been pretty vocal that Resolve is the future of Fusion. Not super explicit, but I'm not sure how anyone can come to a different conclusion.

Maybe they'll do one more "throw a bone" release, but my guess is they'll try to stuff as much of it into Resolve 16 as humanly possible, so that there are as few reasons as possible to choose Fusion stand-alone over the integrated version ;-)
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Kel Philm

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostMon Feb 11, 2019 2:30 am

The last official statement from BMD on the matter (17th April 2018):

'The fully-featured standalone versions of Fusion\Fusion Studio is still being developed and there no plan in the foreseeable future to discontinue this.'
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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostTue Feb 12, 2019 10:37 pm

Trensharo wrote:
highbeamstudios wrote:my guess is they'll try to stuff as much of it into Resolve 16 as humanly possible, so that there are as few reasons as possible to choose Fusion stand-alone over the integrated version ;-)


Things that can't be stuffed into Resolve from standalone Fusion:

+ A purpose-built UI with little wasted space or hidden controls
+ UI customization
+ UI interaction speed
+ Crash-to-relaunch speed
+ Having multiple instances open simultaneously

A lot of other stuff is fixable, but I really don't think those points can be addressed -- that's simply not how Resolve works.

I said it before they announced the integration in R15: "they're 2-3 years away from being ready for this." They surprised me, then un-surprised me by demonstrating that it really isn't usable yet. I'm fine with some in-production testing (the rest of Resolve hasn't suffered for the presence of the Fusion page), but it's become clear that there may be some fundamental design incompatibilities that can't be solved by any amount of time or effort.

If they kill standalone Fusion, The Foundry will have some returning customers. Sigh...
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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostTue Feb 12, 2019 11:54 pm

Jed Mitchell wrote:They surprised me, then un-surprised me by demonstrating that it really isn't usable yet.


:lol: That's exactly the experience I had.

You missed distributed rendering. I just don't see the possibility at the moment of sending a Resolve job to the render farm. Will it even start on a computer with no GPU?
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Jed Mitchell

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostWed Feb 13, 2019 1:29 am

Bryan Ray wrote:
Jed Mitchell wrote:They surprised me, then un-surprised me by demonstrating that it really isn't usable yet.
Will it even start on a computer with no GPU?


Actually I bet they could keep the render nodes working without much effort - pretty sure the engine itself works the same in the Resolve page as in standalone Fusion.

Right now Resolve is just a wrapper for Fusion 9, so our farm still works fine as long as it's not processing any Resolve-specific nodes.

But who knows, there are so many things to dread if standalone gets killed off, it's hard to know where to start...

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostWed Feb 13, 2019 8:36 am

Jed Mitchell wrote:Actually I bet they could keep the render nodes working without much effort - pretty sure the engine itself works the same in the Resolve page as in standalone Fusion.

My impression is that they are rewiring the engine to large extents, to have GPU ops that Resolve side wants to see, and with it a whole different memory management etc. And due to this, I find it hard to imagine that Fu standalone as it is will continue as it was, paths between Fu in Resolve and current standalone diverged some time ago already. At best I'd hope for Fusion stripped from Resolve, which is like.. Fu in Resolve, without Resolve.
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Jed Mitchell

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostWed Feb 13, 2019 2:26 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:My impression is that they are rewiring the engine to large extents, to have GPU ops that Resolve side wants to see, and with it a whole different memory management etc.


I haven't heard anything that specific about development but you're right, that's the obvious path considering the rest of their tech.

I guess all I've got is... I hope we're wrong?


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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostWed Feb 13, 2019 2:32 pm

Bryan Ray wrote:
Jed Mitchell wrote:They surprised me, then un-surprised me by demonstrating that it really isn't usable yet.


:lol: That's exactly the experience I had.

You missed distributed rendering. I just don't see the possibility at the moment of sending a Resolve job to the render farm. Will it even start on a computer with no GPU?

Distributed rendering with GPU could also work for me.


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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostWed Feb 13, 2019 2:45 pm

Alaz Soytemiz wrote:Distributed rendering with GPU could also work for me.


It would be a sad, final nail in the coffin of our poor old CPU farm...

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostWed Feb 13, 2019 2:50 pm

Jed Mitchell wrote:
Alaz Soytemiz wrote:Distributed rendering with GPU could also work for me.


It would be a sad, final nail in the coffin of our poor old CPU farm...

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Better then nothing.
But first fusion page should become usable.


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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostWed Feb 13, 2019 5:06 pm

Jed Mitchell wrote:
Right now Resolve is just a wrapper for Fusion 9, so our farm still works fine as long as it's not processing any Resolve-specific nodes.


How are you working that? Copying out to Fu9 and submitting from there? Or have you worked out a submission directly from Resolve? I have a couple of ideas, but there's been no time (and not much desire, tbh) to try them out.
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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostWed Feb 13, 2019 11:08 pm

Bryan Ray wrote:How are you working that? Copying out to Fu9 and submitting from there?


Yeah I just leave a generic Fusion comp open while I work in Resolve and copy / paste into it as needed. I set the render range to 1000 frames so anything shorter just drops when it's done and since the comp is already loaded in the Render Manager I can just clear the status and off it goes again.

It sounds dumb (is dumb?) but it works fine and only takes a second to execute.

I imagine there's a way to script this but like you implied, what's the point when we still don't know where this is all going, and honestly the Fusion page is so unreliable I only use it for very simple comps within Resolve. The Fusion page doesn't get around the simple fact that image sequences are the only reliable way to composite so most of the time it's faster to just set up a standalone comp and round-trip as usual.
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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostThu Feb 14, 2019 9:01 am

I really hope someone from BMD is reading this.
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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostFri Feb 15, 2019 6:20 am

Jed Mitchell wrote:
Trensharo wrote:
highbeamstudios wrote:my guess is they'll try to stuff as much of it into Resolve 16 as humanly possible, so that there are as few reasons as possible to choose Fusion stand-alone over the integrated version ;-)


Things that can't be stuffed into Resolve from standalone Fusion:

+ A purpose-built UI with little wasted space or hidden controls
+ UI customization
+ UI interaction speed
+ Crash-to-relaunch speed
+ Having multiple instances open simultaneously

A lot of other stuff is fixable, but I really don't think those points can be addressed -- that's simply not how Resolve works.

I said it before they announced the integration in R15: "they're 2-3 years away from being ready for this." They surprised me, then un-surprised me by demonstrating that it really isn't usable yet. I'm fine with some in-production testing (the rest of Resolve hasn't suffered for the presence of the Fusion page), but it's become clear that there may be some fundamental design incompatibilities that can't be solved by any amount of time or effort.

If they kill standalone Fusion, The Foundry will have some returning customers. Sigh...

Honestly, 3/5th of that is... preference.

How clear is this stuff to you? You've seen the code? I'd wager you're wrong.

I'd also say that if your idea of proper integration is literally copy and pasting the fusion experience as you know it (now) into Resolve, then you need to get your expectations in order. Fusion is being integrated into Resolve, not the other way around.

I still think Resolve needs more UI flexibility. The current Final Cut Pro X quasi-ripoff, minus the charm, isn't very fun to work with (personal opinion).
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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostFri Feb 15, 2019 1:37 pm

Trensharo wrote:Honestly, 3/5th of that is... preference.

How clear is this stuff to you? You've seen the code? I'd wager you're wrong.

I'd also say that if your idea of proper integration is literally copy and pasting the fusion experience as you know it (now) into Resolve, then you need to get your expectations in order. Fusion is being integrated into Resolve, not the other way around.


I am very excited about where Resolve+Fusion is headed -- I make sure to vocally thank BMD staff any time I interact with them for all the positive impact they've had on my work.

And no, I'm not on their development team - they seem quite alright without my help. But I think it's healthy to have public discussion about the tools we use. I haven't met many developers in this industry who aren't interested in hearing (polite :) feedback from their customers.

So, I think about it like this: Nuke and Fusion both arrived at some conventions and features that artists and studios seem to agree are important. There are plenty of other ways to do things but parts of the current "Nuke-like" compositing model don't mesh very well with Resolve as we know it.

I don't think taking features & choices ("preferences") away is always a bad thing -- I actually really like the rigid design of Resolve's UI -- but it will have an effect. I think a good integration of Fusion will be incredible to have in Resolve, and I'm very excited about it, but there will be tradeoffs if we lose Fusion standalone. Depending on what you do, those tradeoffs might not matter at all or they may be critical. I don't need a "copy - pasted" Fusion integration, but I do want some way of addressing the problems we're all pointing out that don't exclude current users.

You mentioned FCPX - Apple is great at removing choice from the user for the sake of streamlining what they think you need. But they've lost a lot of customers from this industry (and gained different ones) since the 90s because of those choices and the features they prioritized.

Is that bad? I don't know, Apple seems happy enough with where they're at. You've got to change stuff to move forward and BMD certainly doesn't seem afraid to change things. But if a contingent of their happiest customers are worried about product direction or want a specific feature, BMD probably doesn't mind knowing about it, whether they have a solution or not.

So, why not talk it out? At least here somebody is listening.

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostFri Feb 15, 2019 3:02 pm

Since using Fusion from the 1st version ever created 20year back from now I must say I have mixed feelings about the "fusion" from fusion into resolve. Here are some thoughts:

1. Fusion was always about speed in comparison to nuke. Whenever something has to render quickly we would choose fusion standalone over nuke anytime. When fusion lives only in resolve this is a complete different story.
2. Fusion is missing some few but essential features comparing to nuke. A better EXR multipart workflow for instance. Shuffeling out AOVs more easy etc. when BMD really wants to offer something competitive they have to refactor some of the essential nodes that needs an update for years.
3. sparse Documentation on the API is still a pain in the a
4. Incomplete or stuck development of the 3d part in fusion. 3d in fusion has great potential but would love to see a PBR ready shader implementation for instance.
5. Support from BMD is okayisch, but they need a board where user can vote on features and the dev team should do exactly this.
6. Resolve & Fusion should both change to a subscription license model imho so this is the only way they can continue putting effort in the software development instead of selling it by the piece.

Quality software needs to evolve on and on. Implement new, refactor old. Software is a living thing so to speak and you can kind of feel it. Badly patched sofware with dirty feature hacks in it is unsustainable over time and will eventually die. - This is the reason why new sofware packages with state of the art programming can run down the market in a very short period of time (e.g. Houdini, Modo, Blender) - Adapt or die

So if BMD reads my lines of crappy english - I love your products and .. but take your time to grow into the compositing market - Start talking to the fusion community the will work with you - so that fusion will evolve
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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostFri Feb 15, 2019 3:15 pm

Apple seems happy enough with where they're at

Well, yes. They makes tons and tons of money off their iPhones and the people who love their Macs (and MacOS/ iOS) are so loyal they keep buying their stuff anyway, so yes, I'd be happy to if I were Apple. :mrgreen:
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Bryan Ray

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostFri Feb 15, 2019 10:15 pm

TimElschner wrote:6. Resolve & Fusion should both change to a subscription license model


I'm gonna say a big "no" on that one. I much prefer a perpetual license, but I certainly wouldn't complain about needing to purchase updates or having a maintenance model. I just don't want a situation like Adobe or Autodesk, where if you stop paying for your subscription you completely lose access to the software.

On every other point, though, I'm in hearty agreement.
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d3zd3z

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostSat Feb 16, 2019 7:43 am

Each time a new release of Resolve comes out, I try to do something within Fusion in it. So far, it just isn't stable enough for me (and I'm saying this after having Fusion crash about 10 times on me).

If Fusion in Resolve becomes fully usable, I think I'll be ok with it. What I'm not sure about is that I'm not sure my computer/GPU is good enough to run Resolve. It often works ok, but it bogs my computer down and things get quite sluggish. Standalone Fusion doesn't usually seem to do this.

I can justify paying $300 for what is basically a hobby for me. Nuke is way out of the ballpark, and I keep running into things I can't do with the non-commercial version of Nuke. Aside from a bunch of things that work more smoothly in Nuke (roto, tracking, etc), I actually like Fusion better. I hope that Fusion remains something that I can continue to use.
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RCModelReviews

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostSat Feb 16, 2019 9:40 pm

^--- what this man said +1

I sometimes do trivial stuff in Resolve's Fusion tab but 90% of the time I'm still using VFX-Connect.
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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostSun Feb 17, 2019 7:04 pm

Jed Mitchell wrote:
You mentioned FCPX - Apple is great at removing choice from the user for the sake of streamlining what they think you need. But they've lost a lot of customers from this industry (and gained different ones) since the 90s because of those choices and the features they prioritized.

Is that bad? I don't know, Apple seems happy enough with where they're at. You've got to change stuff to move forward and BMD certainly doesn't seem afraid to change things. But if a contingent of their happiest customers are worried about product direction or want a specific feature, BMD probably doesn't mind knowing about it, whether they have a solution or not.

So, why not talk it out? At least here somebody is listening.

I didn't mention FCPX in that sense. I only stated that the current Resolve UI is a quasi-FCPX rip-off, which it does feel like when working with it.

Apple had a different plan for FCPX, one that is more in line with Adobe's push into education and the consumer and prosumer markets, except with less emphasis on the Pro Market. It was a calculated risk, and it's paying off for them. It may not be in the upper echelon of Pro Use, but this is also a benefit in that they get to avoid the stagnation that being a major player in that market forces on product development.

The stuff you wrote regarding FCPX is really not relevant to what I actually said in my earlier post :-P

I was just talking about how the application looked.

FCPX was missing a lot of functionality vis-à-vis FCP7 when it released. It wasn't just the Magnetic Timeline that turned Professionals off.
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Trensharo

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostSun Feb 17, 2019 7:18 pm

d3zd3z wrote:Each time a new release of Resolve comes out, I try to do something within Fusion in it. So far, it just isn't stable enough for me (and I'm saying this after having Fusion crash about 10 times on me).

If Fusion in Resolve becomes fully usable, I think I'll be ok with it. What I'm not sure about is that I'm not sure my computer/GPU is good enough to run Resolve. It often works ok, but it bogs my computer down and things get quite sluggish. Standalone Fusion doesn't usually seem to do this.

I can justify paying $300 for what is basically a hobby for me. Nuke is way out of the ballpark, and I keep running into things I can't do with the non-commercial version of Nuke. Aside from a bunch of things that work more smoothly in Nuke (roto, tracking, etc), I actually like Fusion better. I hope that Fusion remains something that I can continue to use.

This is the biggest thing I've noticed. Fusion 9 feels really responsive and fast, and Resolve just... doesn't.

IMO, they should have developed a connect Plug-In for more 3rd party NLEs, but it seems they're content to let even the Avid plug-in die, at this point.
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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostMon Feb 18, 2019 8:11 am

TimElschner wrote:2. Fusion is missing some few but essential features comparing to nuke. A better EXR multipart workflow for instance. Shuffeling out AOVs more easy etc. when BMD really wants to offer something competitive they have to refactor some of the essential nodes that needs an update for years.

+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1
And reworking the UI but especially the UX.

I would also like to see Resolve and Fusion separate. It's nice to have a Fusion tab in Resolve but seems to work only if you wanna put together something simple like a title sequence or so, but not complex production shots, very cumbersome. Imagine you wanna do postproduction on Transformers or so and you end up with a Resolve Project with 500+ vfx shots, ridiculous :lol: .
But first and foremost I hope that Fusion will stay standalone for as long as possible because the current implementation (if you wanna call it that) is VERY buggy at least on Linux. So far I couldn't get anything useful out of it...in fact I already struggle to get anything in to it.
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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostMon Feb 18, 2019 4:18 pm

Hey,

My first wish was BMD to improve the VFX connect thing, which appeared to me as a good choice regarding to the main differences between Resolve and Fusion (HW demands, UI, perf, ...). It also keep 2 standalones that can grow their specific ways...

Now I also ever tried ReFusion tab in every new Resolve version.

I don't try anymore, and my original wish is still the same...
(even if I know it won't go this way)
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Kel Philm

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Re: Fusion 9 update anytime soon?

PostMon Feb 18, 2019 10:02 pm

Hey Sam,

Totally agree, VFX connect is what I tend to use if I am working in Resolve and need to comp. Its fast to setup and easy to use, just needs to be a bit better organised. I think BMD needs to sit down with some Compositors as it feels like they are missing a large part of the picture, I know some of the Fusion staff left/were let go a while back and I wonder if they have lost some of that skill set and perspective.

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