8-bit + FRC vs. True 10-bit, Panels

Hello! I currently have a BenQ SW272U and just learnt it's not true 10-bit display, which I thought it was initially going by its description/specs and earlier reviews (apparently it is 8-bit+FRC). I've barely used it yet and some 4/5 months after buying it I'm feeling a bit gutted to realise about this now!

Anyway, what I'm wondering and would appreciate any suggestions or advice on is if the SW272U being 8-bit+FRC really matters or not. My planned work mainly involves 4k (3840x2160) braw footage of mostly outdoor shoots etc. and green screen. That's it pretty much and some Mini Pro 3 (D-Cinelike) and Unreal Engine stuff is also planned.

Two questions:

I assume using a true 10-bit display with any additional specs required to suit is best or a no brainer, but if in the position where somewhat seriously starting out with things and bearing in mind the needs regarding keying green screen footage well and color accuracy/grading/precision, is a BenQ SW272U 8-bit+FRC display good enough or would getting a true 10-bit display be the way forward, just get it done and out of the way kind of thing?

If in real world examples, when could it matter between 8-bit+FRC versus true 10-bit, how may it become a noticeable issue whereby using a true 10-bit panel is or should always be necessary?

Cheers

An 8 bit monitor may show you banding when there isn't any. But if you make yourself familiar with the scopes, you can spot real banding there and otherwise ignore it on the screen.
The more important point is calibration, and you can read about that in dozens of threads in the Resolve subforum.

Thanks Uli. I've read up about and think I understand the importance of using calibrated monitor already, my query on the 8-bit FRC vs. true 10-bit implications is what I'm not familiar about in real work example cases. I get what you're saying of course, but I'm still unsure if to make workflow smoother/more professional and just not mess around should I get a true 10-bit display instead of using this Benq SW272U at all, or would keeping the BenQ and using it alongside a true 10-bit display (to check for banding/other issues?) be advantageous in any way, as in if for color accuracy one is better and certain things are better from the other.

I'm thinking already getting the BenQ SW272U for a covering most bases monitoring/display solution isn't a good choice based on it not being a true 10-bit display alone, and what that means technically and visually.

Without any unnecessary and unexpected further hurdles (i.e., without a '8bit+frc mistaken purchase' for instance) all I'd like is to capture, edit, compositing green screen, maybe some vfx etc. and color grade correctly knowing I'm at least using the right tools to begin with, and be putting out content to decently acceptable universal technical/visual standards.

Wouldn't life just be so dull if matters like this didn't ever arise hey. Cheers all!

That's a pretty good monitor you've got there, since it can be hardware calibrated.
It is much more important than true 10 bit.

Yeh from what I had gathered and little use seen so far I thought it's a good display, but until the recent realisation and when considering the price, the misleading specs/info etc. I found out I'm just not feeling too impressed with it overall, but I understand as well that I mightn't be fully correct for having this opinion because of lacking real longer term experience and knowledge with any accomplished video/color work just yet. I obviously now know it isn't true 10-bit which is enough to do the head in a bit, at least!

For peace of mind I'm thinking of possibly part exchanging, or selling it, and just getting a true 10-bit display. I've seen written on the forum here about OLED screens being a thing or the Eizos. Could anyone please give some product suggestions in a similar price range (1500.00) or thereabouts, a display that should sufficiently cover my previously mentioned work needs/requirements? Thanks

Hi

I cannot recommend highly enough a quality OLED for viewing your video on.

I recently purchased a 16" OLED panel that is connected to a DeckLink Monitor 4K for its feed. It then has a Calibrated LUT applied. This was produced using Resolve and along with AgryllCMS and DisplayCAL (both Open Source) as Resolve needs CalMan which I can not justify the cost of and this does it from free.

This 16" Panel has achieved, when calibrated, 100% DCI-P3 & Rec709 (Gamut & Volume) with a peak brightness of 400, all for £500.

However, as with all OLEDs currently, they are not great for Text elements due to their sub pixel layout, although both LG and Samsung have new tech coming out this year that will greatly improve that.

I use mine just to show the video output and when it is not is stays back to avoid any burn in caused by static elements. It is not a screen that Windows has access to on Resolve.

As long as you get a good OLED Panel from LG or Samsung you should be covered. You do need to be able to turn off Auto Brightness which I know can be done on LG via the Engineer Menu but it usually invalidates your warranty.

For your 1500 budget you could probably get a 42" or 48" OLED Screen from LG. I have found the following website very useful when wanting to see specs and performance.

https://www.rtings.com/

Regards

Peter

I'll look in it those options more on that, and see what I find is hopefully suitable and get on with in time. Thanks Pete, Uli. Cheers!

The BenQ, LG, and Dell monitors when calibrated properly are good enough for most color grading work. Believe it this cheap BenQ does pretty well when calibrated, in a dimly lit environment, and you’re viewing directly and straight at it which for the most part, you are.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... html/specs

The blacks are really black and the whites are white. It’s 95% DCI-P3 and 100% Rec709 and 300 nits with very good contrast. Don’t from on the 8 bit FRC versus 10 bit. Just calibrate this well and you’ve got a good monitor. Just make sure of your lighting environment and setup too as mentioned above.

You can buy one from B&H and try it out with the right setup. Turn off the blue light feature too. You have 30 days to return it if you think I’m wrong. Good luck but if you do, let us know what your experience is and thoughts.

BTW, here are the specs side by side between the SW272U and the EW3270U. There is very much little difference. The ones highlighted in yellow are the same on both, the green highlights are the added features independent of model, that for me except for the LUT and an IPS screen so that it is viewable from different perspectives, it's not that interesting to me. I can always view LUTs via DVR and as I said, if you have a dimly lit room and looking straight at the monitor (which I think will be the case when you're editing and grading), will be just fine. The blue highlights are interesting but not so much different and although the SW272U has higher NITs for max brightness, 300 is more than sufficient for my SDR work and even at than most folks are just grading at 100 nits. Now this may be a decision to go with the 400 for HDR work. But I think since it is the max brightness, most folks again will be setting it between 100 and 300. The contrast ratio is 3x on the EW3270U which brings out that black is black and white is white - I will not use the term TRUE BLACK or TRUE WHITE because such purity is not going to be true on monitors at this price level unless you're in the 10K monitor price range. And that is also to the eye of the beholder. Last but most importantly, are the color gamut. For broadcast and theatrical work, REC 709 and DCI-P3 is king. I wouldn't bother with sRGB so a 100% sRGB is not that interesting to me. The EW3270U has 100% REC 709 and 95% DCI-P3. Yes, DCI-P3 is not 99 or 100% but it's well enough for DCP projector delivery. I wouldn't fret on the 10-bit (8bit+FRC) versus True 10-bit so long you do a very good calibration and do it often. Anyway, my 2 cents.

moncompare.JPG (106.11 KiB) Viewed 35965 times

Thanks Ellory for your input and the info. I already own the SW272U monitor, connected with decklink mini monitor 4k. I'd be viewing the display straight on, has the hood thing too and I have a Calibrite Diplay Plus HL tool also.

I'm pretty much still finding out how best to achieve a smooth efficient workflow (from scratch really I guess), which I understand well enough before actually commiting and dedicating time to projects, so from capturing 4k video (braw) with my Blackmagic cameras (drone d-cinelike/gopro as well possibly) to exporting a final render using Davinci Resolve Studio, and all of it being edited/composited/graded with the BenQ SW272U display, for at least the forseeable.

Something else I've wondered and have been learning up about is the rec709/hdr (2020?) etc. stuff and how I should go about things when for instance from capturing with the BM cameras to configuring Davinci project/media source settings (the colorspace/cst options, if I understand correctly), and the actual correct or best option to choose with the BenQ SW272U throughout.

It's not like I'm ever going Hollywood or anything more than YouTube, social media platforms etc. with the inteneded video content creations, but I'd like to rest assured I'm doing things optimally along the way with the entire production process in mind using the kit I've been aquiring and getting to know, for the end results hoped to be acheived.

There's been a wealth of valuable info I've been taking in, from this forums posters alone, various video related websites and the YouTube content from creators, all working with Davinci Resolve/BM products professionally; it's much appreciated. Cheers!

Hey George, I suggest looking into a color management workflow that will suit the projects you plan to worked on. DVR studio comes with several workflow options and there are also others that enhances or add to the existing workflows. For me and my projects, I have spend my time and energy on honing in to an ACES workflow. It’s a pretty good standard and is usually a a favor of Hollywood colorist. The Resolve YRGB Managed workflow with wide gamut color space is a good choice to. I recommend trying them out to see what works for you and your ecosystem then choose one. I recommend choosing and staying with one and perfect your experience with it. Here a video from Cullen Kelly where he does a good job explaining the differences in workflow can work for a colorist.

Unless you are a perfectionist and working to do color grading for Hollywood blockbuster features, I say don’t put too much time on the monitor you have and worry about which is better or having HDR or not. When you are being paid and stashed enough that you can splurge on a $10K plus monitor like Sony PVM-X3200 or the Canon DP-V3120 which is 2X that, then you’re talking.

My point in my above post on the comparison of the two Benq monitor is that unless your room environment is design purposefully for color grading, and even at that, an amateur colorist (in a non derogatory terms) would not be able to notice much difference. Also I don’t know if you checked but there is a big gap in the price of those 2 monitors and they pretty much deliver the same result. Maybe one with critical eye might spot the banding but your typical streaming or YouTube audience will not. Also processed for DCI-P3 and packaged for screen release with DCP, again 98% of your audience will never notice or see the difference. Now if the story, editing/look, and audio are bad, that will certainly kill it.

Second that. Don't overthink it regarding that monitor.

Hey Uli, Is the MacBook Pro in your signature line your main working system? How’s that configuration working out for your timelines? I’m asking because I’m looking for a smaller form factor system to replace my current one and thinking about (1) going Apple and (2) using a MacBook Pro for space saver. Most of my projects are indie shorts and features with max timelines of 4K DCI @ 24fps to 60fps, some VFX on Fusion but not a lot. I’m usually using Win PC, both desktop and laptop today. I don’t want to fiddle around with a lot of tech and just want something that just works. Would you recommend it?

Yes. It's very reliable and my main machine for DR. Please note that I mainly use BRAW and ProRes, occasional HEVC is also fine. I recommend to have at least 1.5 GB per GPU core, don't skimp on RAM.

The weaker side is Fusion, which is not really fast on Apple silicon. For complex Fusion work I have access to a massive desktop PC, which we also use for improving archival footage with TVAI.

Another caveat: Some folks seem to experience issues with M3 machines under Ventura. I didn't care to update yet, but I'm aware that they can't go back to Monterey. My experience is limited to M2 Max until now.

Hey Ellory. I checked out the monitors comparison info, and price differences, thanks for reminding me I'm still wiping away the tears, haha. I made an attempt to see if I could trade/part-ex the SW272U but so far is a no go, guess I'll stick with it for now but for sure and by what you're saying the EW3270U seems a no brainer, in my case at least. I'll be looking up some vids on room lighting tips too. I have been watching a fair bit of Cullens videos about color management, and have seen/read about ACES, DR YRGB and various other related things (2020, 709, dci, p3, 2.2/2.4... arrrgh! Haha). There's quite a lot to take in with all of this I'm aware, but I'm trying no to otherthink stuff too much either.

Anyway, what I'll try to explain and ask some further question about below, which I appreciate anybody answering, is my intended basic production workflow from start to finish. Hopefully with some answers I'll be more informed and know better how to move on in a sounder manner:

With my Micro Studio G2 4K, mainly this will be used indoors for green screen capture, choosing braw 3:1 at 3840x2160. With my BMPCC4K, mainly this will be used for outdoor scenes capture, probably exact same record settings as the G2 4K. All source footage being edited/composited/colorgraded/final-export with DR Studio; using (for time being) the BenQ SW272U for monitoring entirely.

Q1. What could probably be the best color science/record-mode to choose and go with, that are available in these BM cameras (best preserving dynamic range etc., or does the color science/record-mode not matter if shooting in braw)?

From there, if I understand right, when in DR Studio choosing the right color management workflow options is a matter of going by: the source footages file/mode, the displays color capability, and personal preferences like explained a bit in Cullens video.

Q2. When taking in to consideration the chosen BM cameras color science/record-mode to begin with if necessary, and the chosen color management workflow stuff in DR Studio; ultimately then: Which of the displays color modes should be chosen that the BenQ SW272U (or similar spec'd monitor) is capable of?

I'm just here hopefully asking the right (nooob!! Haha) questions and wanting to keep on joining all these fundamental dots. Cheers

Q1
Simple: let DR do the job, it'll recognise the BRAW and act accordingly if set to Resolve Color Management. Just get white balance and exposure right when shooting.

Q2
Monitoring should be done in Rec. 709, since that's what the Benq can be calibrated to. It can't handle HDR anyway, and P3 is only a good choice if you want to go to cinema.

Again, don't ponder your monitor too much, it's not bad at all.

George, what Uli said. Your monitor is fine and should be more than enough. Although it is ideal to monitor in Rec709 for broadcast and streaming which generally is the case with most consumer and prosumer monitors and DCIP3 for viewing with a cinema projector, look at your monitor specs. As far as I can tell, it does not list Rec709 but it does show 100% sRGB, 99% Adobe RGB, and 98% DCI P3, which means that, and I suggest to, best calibrate it for sRGB. You can set your workflow to output for sRGB but I think you can output o Rec709 and it will be fine. In fact you can even calibrate it for Rec709 and it will be just fine. From what I understand, and I stand to be corrected, sRGB is closely related to the Rec. 709 gamut. In fact, the two standards cover the same area of the chromaticity diagram. The only difference is that sRGB uses a lower gamma value than Rec. So on an sRGB monitor, Rec709 with gamma 2.2 would just be fine. Also, if you have a need to monitor in DCIP3, you can do that. There are players out there that will emulate projection luminance on Monitor given it the same effect as what it looks like on a cinema screen. The word is “emulate” therefore it is an approximation. If you are doing DCI-P3, get a projector that supports dci p3 (again Benq has a good one) or make friends with a projectionist who can give you play time in a cinema environment.

Uli, on the MacBook Pro, thanks for your advice. I’m still having this self imposed debate over to go with a laptop or a Mac Studio Max or Ultra, meaning is a Max with the 64 core and 64gb RAM, which is about the same cost as the MacBook Pro with close spec be a decent equivalent and do I really need something portable like a laptop if it’s 98% of the time on the desk? I’m still pondering but will pull the trigger after my two projects I’m working on are in the can.

Definitely don't go for 64 cores with only 64 GB of RAM!
It'll slow down on complex renders and it'll ruin your internal SSD in the long run. Get fewer cores or more RAM. Well, at least you can change the SSDs in the Mac Studio, even if you'll need expensive ones by Apple, instead of needing a new BM.

Laptop vs. Studio? Well, one point in favour of the laptop is the small, but excellent screen with decent HDR and an impressive sound for a laptop.
But with the Studio you don't need to pay for stuff you may already have, like monitor, keyboard and mouse and you'll get more connections. It's pretty portable, if you have something like two fixed locations with a monitor each and mains power.

So, I don't envy you for the need to make this decision.

Definitely don't go for 64 cores with only 64 GB of RAM!
It'll slow down on complex renders and it'll ruin your internal SSD in the long …

You did point that out in your previous post and I overlooked it, my bad. So at least 96 or 128 Gb of RAM then with a 64 core studio.

Comparing the Benq EW3270/80 with the SW272U specs. The EW3280 is the new model with IPS panel and 10 bit, not 8 + FRC. It’s almost 1:1 with the SW272U in features except for the supported color space, or lack thereof.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/compare/ ... 770515-REG

This is a review on the SW272U specs, goes on about the 8bit frc stuff about four minutes in:

I looked at that last EW display series comparison posted and seen it says 10bit for the EW3280, but it was the same for the SW272U originally elsewhere.

In the comments for that video I linked above, the reviewer writes in a comment: "I checked with BenQ to make sure, and they said the SW272U is indeed 8-bit with FRC. They also clarified that the SW321C is true 10-bit."

Another comment left by somebody else is: "For creative monitor shoppers, keep in mind that while this tiny 27 inch with a matte coating (matte is a mistake) costs 1600, you can get a 4k OLED 120hz glossy 42 inch state of the art display from LG for less than 1000 dollars. That thing is actually 10bit btw and not an 8 bit panel. Computer monitors are highly overpriced for the feature sets they provide. This is literally an 8bit 27 inch 60hz display (it's old tech, has no impressive specs) approaching 2000 dollars , you can buy a macbook pro for this money and get the computer for free, granted that's 14/16 inches instead of 27 but still.
It's using literally the worst display tech available (TN and VA panels are not a real option in 2023) and isn't even 10bit at 1600 dollars.".

I'm considering maybe grabbing the EW3270 talked about earlier this thread, seems a decent cheap option for having a larger/better viewable 4k res. 32" display (vs. viewing 4k res. on a 27") and for raggin' during editing stages, other general daily computer use. The SW321C could have been in hindsight a best overall display choice (although slightly more costly than the SW272U), and what with it being true 10-bit as well according to the reviewer in that video above.

I'll see how things go anyway, after discussing it here I'm left feeling ok for now with hanging on to the ('rip-off') SW272U, stuck with it unless I stick it on ebay, but no worries either way it's all good.

Last thing for now, in my earlier question: "Q1. What could probably be the best color science/record-mode to choose and go with, that are available in these BM cameras (best preserving dynamic range etc., or does the color science/record-mode not matter if shooting in braw)?"

What I meant in that question, was in the Blackmagic cameras there are those film/video color options. Are those options just them lut things that don't have to be baked in to the video recorded files, and so the choson (color science?) film/video color options doesn't need to matter or won't be anything to do with what ever the color management option further chosen in DR Studio would be?

Cheers

Last thing for now, in my earlier question: "Q1. What could probably be the best color science/record-mode to choose and go with, that are available in these BM cameras (best preserving dynamic range etc., or does the color science/record-mode not matter if shooting in braw)?"

What I meant in that question, was in the Blackmagic cameras there are those film/video color options. Are those options just them lut things that don't have to be baked in to the video recorded files, and so the choson (color science?) film/video color options doesn't need to matter or won't be anything to do with what ever the color management option further chosen in DR Studio would be?

If you are shooting BRAW, it's only how your picture is displayed in the camera and initially in DR. You can later change that to your liking. If you record ProRes, it's baked in.

Another comment left by somebody else is: "For creative monitor shoppers, keep in mind that while this tiny 27 inch with a matte coating (matte is a mistake) costs 1600, you can get a 4k OLED 120hz glossy 42 inch state of the art display from LG for less than 1000 dollars.

Matte versus glossy is a matter of preference and target look for delivery. I think if I were doing delivery for broadcast, streaming, or commercial the glossy would be my preference. However since 95% of my monitoring is for short and feature indie films, I prefer the matte coating as it provides me that screen matted look. But the Oled 42 inch, I will assume you’re referring to models C9, C10, and newer, are really a good choice for budget reference monitoring. I used the C9 which is an older model that is asking for replacement as a reference monitor, but I don’t think I want to be editing and grading with it. My editing and grading monitors takes input from my GPU cards while the reference monitors (1 have 2 also) are connected to the DeckLink.

It's using literally the worst display tech available (TN and VA panels are not a real option in 2023) and isn't even 10bit at 1600 dollars.".

I wouldn’t call the VA panels worst. The TN, yes. In a dimly lit or dark environment and straight ahead viewing, the VA displays blacks and whites as true to almost that of OLED. The contrast is crisp even compared to a IPS considering it has slight less pixels than an IPS. And with a 100% REC709 and 95% DCIP3 gamut support on the Ew3270 for less than $400usd, I think it is a good deal for someone on a budget.