Post production 10 bit color issue regarding OS Mavericks

I found this article below enlightening - especially, for those looking to buy a new monitor for their new MacPro with AMD FirePro D700s.

I have been researching the purchase of a new grading monitor - 10 bit - only to learn that Mavericks will not support 10 bit color (is that lame or what!). And, you CANNOT (despite what BMD, Ezio, or Flanders say) get around this by plugging in a collection of BMD or AJA interfaces because Mavericks is the road block. However, apparently, the AMD FirePro D700 will support 10 bit.

Here is an excerpt from the WolfCrow article:

“So, the sad part is, even though the GPU is professional-grade and capable of 10-bit, and the monitor is 10-bit, OS X still does not support 10-bit, even via Thunderbolt. This means, if you are planning on using a Blackmagic Design or AJA 10-bit card in the hopes of getting 10-bit, you will be unpleasantly surprised. Therefore, at this time, I cannot recommend the Apple Mac Pro if you want to color grade in 10-bit. However, I also believe 8-bit is good enough and it’s no big deal.”

How can Apple produce a professional video hardware product and not include 10 bit color? The folks at AMD told me that Apple just needs to write some code and flip a few software switches. Apparently, Mavericks does allow for the capability to create a 10 bit look up table. I hope this is actually the case.

The question remains: should those of us with new MacPros buy a 10 bit monitor and hope for the best? I am still on the fence about this.

What are your thoughts?

http://wolfcrow.com/blog/is-the-new-app ... g-machine/

If you feel inclined to petition Apple for 10 bit color output with a Mavericks update, please feel free to post this at: Apple.com/feedback.

It would please us in the film/video community for Apple to provide support for 10 bit color output via Thunderbolt > MiniDisplay Port or allow us to use third party gear (Blackmagic Design) to utilize other professional grading monitors with different connectivity. The state of the science professionally, would be for the MacPro (Mavericks) to support 10 bit color. This surprisingly is not the case. I hope to see that update soon, as do many of my colleagues. Thanks!

Pssssst - I'll let you in on a little secret; Apple doesn't care. Although you probably should have known that after Final Cut X and the Lisa-like abortion they're calling the 'Mac Pro' were released.

How can Apple produce a professional video hardware product and not include 10 bit color? The folks at AMD told me that Apple just needs to write some code and flip a few software switches. Apparently, Mavericks does allow for the capability to create a 10 bit look up table. I hope this is actually the case.

The quoted WolfCrow article is just wrong. You can absolutely get 10 bit output from pro video apps through a BMD Thunderbolt interface. It's true that Mavericks can't natively drive a monitor at 10 bits, but as far as the OS is concerned a BMD device isn't a monitor; it's just a Thunderbolt device to which data can be sent. The OS doesn't know or care that that data might be a representation of a 10 bit image. It's just 1s and 0s on the bus as far as the OS is concerned.

How can Apple produce a professional video hardware product and not include 10 bit color? The folks at AMD told me that Apple just needs to write some code and flip a few software switches. Apparently, Mavericks does allow for the capability to create a 10 bit look up table. I hope this is actually the case.

The quoted WolfCrow article is just wrong. You can absolutely get 10 bit output from pro video apps through a BMD Thunderbolt interface. It's true that Mavericks can't natively drive a monitor at 10 bits, but as far as the OS is concerned a BMD device isn't a monitor; it's just a Thunderbolt device to which data can be sent. The OS doesn't know or care that that data might be a representation of a 10 bit image. It's just 1s and 0s on the bus as far as the OS is concerned.

Well I am puzzled ... a senior MacPro advisor from Apple confirmed today that what is coming out of the Thunderbolt 2 port is information that will only support 8 bit color: no more and no less. He said, you can't turn an 8 bit color profile in the current OS that's driving the GPUs into a 10 bit color profile if the software (Mavericks) doesn't have a 10 bit look up table to deliver that information to the Thunderbolt port. I argued with him and he said WolfCrow was right.

Be nice if someone from BMD would chime in and find away to get this clear with Apple, because Apple is telling it's customers that trying to squeeze 10 bit out of a MacPro will be impossible with BMD Thunderbolt device until Apple flips the OS switch to support a 10 bit table; and, that NO BMD box will facilitate a 10 bit output the way the current MacPro sits.

If BMD has a solution that they can get behind and Apple concurs, it would be helpful to speak up. If BMD does not speak up, I am going to assume that the Apple advisor is correct.

Well I am puzzled ... a senior MacPro advisor from Apple confirmed today that what is coming out of the Thunderbolt 2 port is information that will only support 8 bit color: no more and no less. He said, you can't turn an 8 bit color profile in the current OS that's driving the GPUs into a 10 bit color profile if the software (Mavericks) doesn't have a 10 bit look up table to deliver that information to the Thunderbolt port. I argued with him and he said WolfCrow was right.

When outputting video via a BMD interface from a pro video app, you're not actually using the operating system's display stack or the graphics card's video signal. You are (depending on the app) possibly using the GPU as a compute engine to process images (possibly at a lot more than 10 bits, i.e. FCP X and Resolve process in 32 bit float), but that's just math; the GPU doesn't care whether the numbers it's crunching represent image data or nodes in a neural network or what.

Once that high bit depth image data exists, nothing prevents it from being sent to a Thunderbolt device. Saying you can't send data representing a 10 bit image to a BMD video interface because the operating system's display stack doesn't support 10 bit display is like saying you can't save 10 bit image data to a hard drive because the operating system's display stack doesn't support 10 bit display. It makes absolutely no sense. 10 bit image data is just so many 1s and 0s, which can be transmitted over Thunderbolt like any other data.

Consider, as additional support, that an UltraStudio 4K can do 4K output even from a system that can't drive a 4K GUI monitor. How is this possible? Because the UltraStudio is generating its own video signal from the data it's sent over Thunderbolt. It's not using the video signal generated by the graphics card and OS, so the limitations those have are irrelevant.

Be nice if someone from BMD would chime in and find away to get this clear with Apple, because Apple is telling it's customers that trying to squeeze 10 bit out of a MacPro will be impossible with BMD Thunderbolt device until Apple flips the OS switch to support a 10 bit table; and, that NO BMD box will facilitate a 10 bit output the way the current MacPro sits.

If BMD has a solution that they can get behind and Apple concurs, it would be helpful to speak up. If BMD does not speak up, I am going to assume that the Apple advisor is correct.

The truth is, unless maybe you're using developer support, you're talking to someone who, while they certainly know a lot more than the average user and have probably read through a bunch of Apple documents, probably lacks deep technical understanding of what's occurring.

Meanwhile, it's easy to verify that 10 bit output is possible just by hooking a 10 bit display up to a BMD interface and throwing a suitable gradient on the screen. Which I do pretty regularly; one of the test patterns we use to verify calibration in our Resolve suites has one.

Kenny. ... This is VERY encouraging! I'm really appreciative of you responding as Apple clearly didn't know what they were talking about. So ... I think I will go ahead and get a mini monitor or UltraStudio 4K and the Eizo CG277 and take the HDMI out, as Eizo will except 10 bit via HDMI. Hopefully, the BMD HDMI supports 10 bit.

Thunderbolt port on the Mac can output data (to a Thunderbolt device) or DisplayPort video data.

When outputting DisplayPort video data it will output 8bit video because that it what the OS outputs it's GUI as from the GPU. This is what the Apple MacPro advisor was referring to.

When you connect a BM UltraStudio Thunderbolt IO you are not processing video data from the GPU. You are sending data, same as you might sent to a hard drive, from the application that is then decoded by the UltraStudio. This data can be 8bit or 10bit. SD, HD or even UHD. It's not constrained by the OS or the GPU as it is simple data.

So while the OS might not support GUI video from the GPU in 10bit you can use a video IO card, like the UltraStudio, to drive a 10bit calibrated reference monitor in full 10bit.

Just another note... I believe the Eizo HDMI is 8 bit and displayport is 10 bit. Might want to check that.

So even if you get 10bit HDMI output you will not get 10bit input on the display. You would need something like BM HDLink Pro 3D DisplayPort. Connect the UltraStudio to the HDLink Pro 3D DisplayPort via HDSDI and then the Eizo to the HDLink Pro 3D DisplayPort via DisplayPort.

Thanks for chiming in, Adam! Greatly appreciated.

HDMI and DisplayPort are both 10 bit on the CG277

Looks like things get a little funky when you try to push 2K into the HDMI input (see below). I will have to call Eizo about this. Some have posted on here some black screen issues when trying to use a Mini Monitor SDI out to HDLink Pro 3D DisplayPort to Display port input on the CG277. Not sure about why this is the case. I wonder if the UltraStudio 4k into the HDLink Pro 3D DisplayPort to DisplayPort CG277 input would work??? The UltraSudio 4K will output 2 and 4K via HDMI, but it looks like the CG277 will not support 2K (above 30Hz) or 4K via HDMI, but will via DisplayPort. Hmmm. Might be a moot point, as I cannot see myself delivering 2k or 4K product (other than for my own enjoyment) and mostly work in a 1080p timeline.

CG277 10 bit.png (4.9 KiB) Viewed 6900 times

Thoughts ... advise. BMD care to chime in?

Could be the 2K is a non standard VIDEO format (it's only really used in DCP) so perhaps the Eizo does not support it??

Could be the 2K is a non standard VIDEO format (it's only really used in DCP) so perhaps the Eizo does not support it??

Looks like 2-4K is supported in DisplayPort, as is UHD. The Eizo CG277 has some nice LUT presets including "Custom", Adobe RGB, sRGB, Rec709, EBU, SMPTE-C, and DCI. Not sure how DCI differs from DCP (above my pay grade).

I tell ya ... determining compatibility issues when making a technology leap and not wasting money is a quite the challenge!

Thanks to those responding to this inquiry. I will let you know what happens after this gets sorted out.

Could be the 2K is a non standard VIDEO format (it's only really used in DCP) so perhaps the Eizo does not support it??

Odd that it supports 4096x2160 but not 2048x1080; they're both DCI resolutions, and the latter is still a lot more common these days. If one wanted to use one of these screens in a suite as a close-in display mirroring a 2K cinema projector, this would be pretty annoying.

Not sure how DCI differs from DCP (above my pay grade).

There's not an especially clear interpretation of that. Maybe "DCP" means XYZ and "DCI" means DCI-P3. In which case they probably should have just said that.

I tell ya ... determining compatibility issues when making a technology leap and not wasting money is a quite the challenge!

It gets really fun when you start running into situations where things should work according to the specs, but somehow don't.

[quote="Chris"] If one wanted to use one of these screens in a suite as a close-in display mirroring a 2K cinema projector, this would be annoying [/quote=Chris"]

Is this because you would end up with a smaller image with bars on the native screen resolution or am I missing something.

Regarding things that should work and don't, hopefully this monitor will play nicely with the UltraStudio 4K: MacPro >Thunderbolt out > UltraStudio in >HDMI out to the CG277. I might consider adding a HDLink Pro 3D DisplayPort to add on if the first HDMI part of equation works.

Dcp is the digital cinema package: the whole of video, audio, subtitles, kdm and such.

Dci is the standard itself that define how file audio sub and so on works

(That is on top of my head, but is Saturday and I'm a little drunk. Joseph, where are you when I need it!

Dcp is the digital cinema package: the whole of video, audio, subtitles, kdm and such.

Dci is the standard itself that define how file audio sub and so on works

(That is on top of my head, but is Saturday and I'm a little drunk. Joseph, where are you when I need it!

General definitions, yes, but this is in the context of a monitor claiming to support "DCP" and "DCI" alongside Rec. 709 and other color spaces.

Dcp is the digital cinema package: the whole of video, audio, subtitles, kdm and such.

Dci is the standard itself that define how file audio sub and so on works

(That is on top of my head, but is Saturday and I'm a little drunk. Joseph, where are you when I need it!

General definitions, yes, but this is in the context of a monitor claiming to support "DCP" and "DCI" alongside Rec. 709 and other color spaces.

I will say misleading.
No display device can hold the whole xyz space, therefore you target what your display do and map in the
final xyz.

A "dcp monitor" at best target P3DCI 2.6 gamma primaries at the moment.

I will say misleading.
No display device can hold the whole xyz space, therefore you target what your display do and map in the
final xyz.

Presumably they just mean you can feed it an XYZ image and get a sensible RGB representation of it on the screen.

A "dcp monitor" at best target P3DCI 2.6 gamma primaries at the moment.

Most likely. We should begin to see displays with larger color spaces as vendors start to chase Rec. 2020 though. Which is going to raise all sorts of tricky questions about what color space(s) to work in.

Sorry really new to all this but I think have the same question as OP...
Only looking to get 10 bit color for Photo editing though, not video

Brand new Macbook Pro 13in -> ColorEdge CX271

If someone could just tell me what I need to connect to get this (as simply as possible) that would be awesome! as I need to purchase asap!

Thanks again
walt

Change Mac to Windows machine and than you can have 10bit out of Photoshop.
Otherwise you need to buy some BM card, and than use this a preview device for Photoshop. This is more tricky as not always works well due to 2 companies involved.

If your Mac has dedicated AMD or Nvidia GPU than install Windows on it and use it this way. I don't think 10bit works out of Intel integrated GPUs.